16181 réponses à ce sujet

[Barbarossa2010]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I wish I didn't buy this game for Xbox 360

I'm with you on that one.  What happens when XBOX 3 comes out before DA2?  Oh wait, we did get the update for USB port usage, so we can transfer data now without pulling the hard drive...never mind.

I just didn't know enough being my first role player and all.  Had I known, I would have gone straight to PC.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 23 avril 2010 - 12:46 .

[Brockololly]

Apologies for the epic long post!

Massamies wrote....
Well getting Old God baby is enough reason to leave and go hiding, most people of Thedas probably would prefer it dead. Either for religious reasons, or just to make sure that it wont get tainted again and turn into archdemon, or other possible risks of old god.

Very well could be- but thats the thing for me at least- we don't know! Would most people in Thedas want an Old God reincarnate in human form to be killed off? Certainly the Chantry would, but what about the Chasind or the people in Tevinter or Antiva or Rivain? What if this Old God Baby can actually act like a God and improve people's lot in life - all the while the Maker is no where to be found- Would people still want it dead then? Would an Old God Baby be susceptible to being tainted by the darkspawn? If so, what would happen then? TONS of cool plot possibilities with Morrigan, Flemeth and the Old God Baby. I really hope it gets continued in DA2.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I definately agree that showing her cry is not only unnecessary in the game, but it would have been cheap. Morrigan doesn't cry in front of anyone, that would look like as if she is begging. The comic is an out-game thing.
I think the problem however is that she appeared too cold and some would say sinister and the romance is not really taken into account (except for one sentence or two).

But you know, you actually gave me a different perspective of this. In some ways, this is the test of faith. It's like the game asking us: do you think you know Morrigan? Do you trust that she loves your character? I say, nay scream, YES! And I think I am right for now.

Kind of in line with Gaider's comments with respect to how the Aimo scene would have played out, I don't think they would have shown Morrigan be all weepy in front of the player. What I was thinking was for the Warden that romanced her or was friends with her instead of ominously standing there in front of the fire, she would be sitting down on the bed when the Warden walked in and maybe at that point Morrigan is just sort of at the end of crying a bit like in Aimo's comic but the Warden doesn't see her cryiong directly but only maybe hears her voice falter a bit or maybe wipe a tear from her face as she quickly gets herself together to propose the Ritual. Just something little like that would have gone a long way instead of ice queen act we get when she is standing in front of the fire- I mean does it really make sense for her to say "Do not be alarmed" to a romancing Warden?

In any event though I'd agree that at least as the Ritual scene is now, it seems like a test of faith like you mentioned. Just my opinion, but I don't think it should have to be that way though for the romancing or friendly Warden- sure Morrigan is an emotional trainwreck at this point but doesn't she trust the Warden at all to be able to confide in him? Sure she is telling him about this old magic Ritual, but doesn't the Warden deserve  a bit more of an explanation after all he has done for MOrrigan? As it stands she seems like a bit of an ingrate, just expecting the Warden will do her bidding without even attempting to explain to him what it is she has planned....

But back to the Ritual being a test of faith- Its an interesting notion to be sure, but it also makes the whole Ritual thing a prime opportunity for a "gotcha!" type moment if they pick up Morrigan's storyline in the future. Maybe thats kind of the point; maybe the writers weren't sure where they wanted to go with it and left it ambiguous on purpose, only Bioware knows!

With that I'll just leave with some interesting old quotes from Gaider and Kirby on tragedy, since that seems to be a recent theme in this thread:

David Gaider wrote... (from April 30, 2008)
I will point out that, from my perspective, I don't really mind there being difficult paths to take in a plot... where each decision is going to lead does not need to be laid out and obvious. I am not advocating moral simplicity.

What I *don't* like is having the plot fool me by making me think I am taking one course of action when really I am
doing something else completely. You make an example of the Witcher, andwhile I liked a number of the plots there a great deal it also was an example of this on occasion as well-- what I call "gotcha" moments.

In a game a player can only act based on the information they're given. If, based on what I've been told, I decide to take what seems to be a morally sound action-- and gotcha! Suddenly it turns out that I have done something dastardly and evil! Well, the plot might think it's being clever but I think it's being irritating. If it was at least a logical
result, something that was reasonable even if unforeseen, then I have no problem with it. If it came out of left field, however, and I had no way of knowing that such a thing could possibly be the result? No, that's the part I don't much care for. It's great in a book, not so great in a game where I'm ostensibly in charge of where I'm heading.

Mary Kirby wrote... (from August 15, 2008)

I don't think that tragedy necessarily, "brings you down," but maybe that's just me. I love sad stories. (I have watched Fried Green Tomatoes far more times than any sensible person ever should.)

I think there's a marked difference between a tragedy and simply a bad turn of events. When you kill the wolf only to find out he was trying to save some little boy, that's not tragic, that's just bad. Tragedies don't get sprung on you in a story. The foundations for them are laid throughout the plot, so that when it does finally occur, it feels like  it was inevitable and perhaps the only right conclusion, and not so much of a "Gotcha!"

And here is an interesting quote from Gaider with regards to exploring religion in DA- maybe these could be themes explored with Old God Baby? Here is the whole thread: http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

David Gaider wrote...

All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Last quote, I promise! This is a just a funny explanation of the Old Gods/Darkspawn from Mary Kirby:

Mary Kirby wrote... (from October 1, 2009)

They (the Tevinter magisters) worshiped the Old Gods. Who weren't old at the time. They were just gods. The story goes something like so*:

Dumat, the greatest of the gods of Tevinter, calls up his buddies, the magisters and says, "Dudes! You know that city you can see from everywhere in the Fade but can't reach? You totally need to go there! It's filled with candy!"

The magisters love candy. So they spend a ridiculous amount of time, money, slaves, and effort to break into the
Golden City.

No candy is found. Bummer.

The magisters who are not now horrific monsters destroying everything call Dumat up to ask him what he did that for, but Dumat is totally not answering his phone. The people of Tevinter are really ticked off at Dumat and
the rest of their gods.

Centuries later, Andraste shows up. She says, "Hey, remember Dumat? Yeah, he's not actually a god, he's just a
jerk-face god impersonator. The real god? You guys totally broke into his house. The dude is pissed. Nice going, guys."

*Actual story does not contain candy, phones, or the word "dude."

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 avril 2010 - 01:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Excellent quotes Brockololly. I especially appreciate Gaider not liking those "gotcha" moments. It reassures me that they won't turn Morrigan and the dark ritual into a zomg evil threat that will destroy the whole universe thing. That's not to say that I want the Dark ritual to be great and perfect either. As we've discussed beforehand, there should be a least two different ways to look at it, one positive and in favor, the other negative and hostile to it. Both of which should be valid depending on perspective.

And yes definately the idea of divinity and its meanings can be developped from the DR. The thing is, I can't see how they can deal with such a large and very important subject without canonising the DR ending. I wouldn't oppose it if it's canonised, but I would feel the dissapointment other players would feel. In addition, the old God and the song the child will presumabely have or developp ties heavily with the Architect and the awakening of the darkspawn. It would be very interesting to see the dynamics between those two aspects. Will the God child be a threat to the Architect (if spared) / the awakening of the darkspawn? Or will it on the contrary aid him, as this purified God is now conscious of itself and is not sleeping / emiting the song automatically? This can go in so many different directions and I hope those decisions which have so much potential, are not ignored.

[Brockololly]

Another overly long post incoming!

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Excellent quotes Brockololly. I especially appreciate Gaider not liking those "gotcha" moments. It reassures me that they won't turn Morrigan and the dark ritual into a zomg evil threat that will destroy the whole universe thing. That's not to say that I want the Dark ritual to be great and perfect either. As we've discussed beforehand, there should be a least two different ways to look at it, one positive and in favor, the other negative and hostile to it. Both of which should be valid depending on perspective.
And yes definately the idea of divinity and its meanings can be developped from the DR. The thing is, I can't see how they can deal with such a large and very important subject without canonising the DR ending. I wouldn't oppose it if it's canonised, but I would feel the dissapointment other players would feel. In addition, the old God and the song the child will presumabely have or developp ties heavily with the Architect and the awakening of the darkspawn. It would be very interesting to see the dynamics between those two aspects. Will the God child be a threat to the Architect (if spared) / the awakening of the darkspawn? Or will it on the contrary aid him, as this purified God is now conscious of itself and is not sleeping / emiting the song automatically? This can go in so many different directions and I hope those decisions which have so much potential, are not ignored.

I can recall immediately after finishing DAO for the 1st time that I was so sure they would simply make Morrigan into a Kerrigan from Starcraft type character and make her into the villain for DA2. I hope they don't go that route as it would be very tired and boring. Yet I could possibly see them having the Ritual and Morrigan's plans for the Old God Baby maybe not going as Morrigan and Flemeth foresaw it happening. Maybe it will be a case of unintended consequences? Could be interesting, but just speculation at this point.

Even though Gaider and the writers don't like the "gotcha!" moments, I feel like Morrigan dropping the whole Ritual/Old God Baby plot on the Warden sort of was just that- Sure Morrigan foreshadows that she may have an ulterior motive and that the romance won't end well, but did we get any clue that Morrigan's whole point of being sent with the Warden was to have an OGB? That came as a shock and a bit of a "WTF!??" moment for me.

Its even more a puzzle to me when Morrigan says to the Warden: "This is what my mother intended when she sent me with you. She was the one who first gave me this ritual and told me of what I was meant to do." Followed by "This does not surprise you, does it? Did you not wonder why Flemeth saved your life, why she aided you? This is why."
That line bugs me- Morrigan says it with such nonchalance that almost any time I play through and get to that point I feel like having my Warden throw his arms up in the air and go "Huh? I'm not supposed to be surprised that Flemeth saved me and Alistair for the reason of impregnating her daughter so that when we kill the Archdemon its soul can seek out the newly formed blastula and create some sort of Old God Baby thing? Oh yeah, you're right Morrigan, that doesn't surprise me at all- totally saw that one coming.":huh:

As far as going forward with the Dark Ritual and canonization,  the big problem as I see it is this: Bioware pissed off people when the universe of the Ultimate Sacrifice Warden wasn't carried forward for the Orlesian Warden in Awakening. I can forgive them that as Awakening was just an expansion. But after playing Mass Effect, people want and like the whole continuity angle from game to game. I'd prefer direct continuity but given the choices available just with the Dark Ritual alone, thats seemingly problematic.

So how could they canonize the Ritual? First, for the US Wardens, you could go about it 2 ways, either have the dead Warden's choices carry through and start as mayeb the Orlesian Warden or Bioware could just be like in ME2 where if your Warden died in Origins, their story is over and in DA2 you'll play with a new default Warden.

But its not just that the Warden lives if they do the Ritual otherwise they're dead. The other wrinkle is that the Warden can turn down Morrigan but still have Alistair or Loghain sacrifice themselves which means you could have a living Warden that didn't do the Ritual. I guess however in this case Bioware sort of has an out story-wise if they desire- not Riordan as he is too tainted for the Ritual. HOwever, think of it this way- supposedly, there were a bunch of Orlesian Grey Wardens coming to aid Ferelden but wouldn't get there in time. So, MOrrigan gets turned down and accordingly ditches the Warden right away- why? Because she has to haul ass to get some lovin' from the nearby Orlesian Wardens. And then presumably the mere fact that she would then have a Warden Baby brewing would be a strong enough beacon for the Old God soul to travel all across Ferelden to wherever she may be camped. Of course the problem here would be that by doing the Ritual no Warden should have died killing the Archdemon...So Bioware could take the 3rd route and just pick a straight up canon version for everyone not unlike BG1 to BG2.  Or Bioware could just say screw it and have DA2 completely removed from anything Origins related.Lots of possibilities and I wonder if even Bioware knows what they're doing...

As for the Architect and the Old God Baby- again this is why I was so disappointed we could kill the Architect in Awakening. The Architect is in my opinion a very intriguing character, especially in The Calling, and I really hope we get to see him again- for better or worse. If yo go by his attitude in the Calling or even from his note in his lab, it seems the Architect has no love for the Old Gods. Its made clear in the Calling he would like to simply see them dead. Yet in Awakening it seems he tried to un-taint Urthemiel to no avail and in his codex note from his lab suggests maybe he should have just killed it. So how would the Arrchitect react to MOrrigan and a kid with the soul of an Old God? WOuldn't this make Morrigan, who seeks to free the Old Gods be in dircet opposition to the Architect who may want to just kill the Old Gods? I guess this depends on whether or not an "awakened" Old God still emits the song and calls to the darkspawn. Or if an awakened, untainted Old God still could be tainted.

Lots of interesting questions... hopefully the Warden can get some answers to these questions in DA2.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 avril 2010 - 03:34 .

[Addai]

Very excited about the mod's upcoming release. I plan to backtrack on my HNM character to take full advantage of it. Thanks so much to Terra_Ex, ejoslin, Charsen, and whomever else for your work.

[Barbarossa2010]

@Brockololly,

Thanks for digging these quotes up. Very interesting. I am in agreement with you. I hear Gaider mention he hates the 'gotcha' moments, but in effect that's what we did get in the Dark Ritual imo. To me it still makes no sense and seemed so unnatural to the story. Others disagree of course. But not being allowed to at least question her in the matter and extract some meaningful answers, or at least have some context that there might be a person in there somewhere, well, it just screamed 'contrived' to me. I remember asking somewhere up front in the dialogue why she didn't tell the Warden sooner? Her response was along the lines of "Would you have believed me?" I thought to myself why the hell wouldn't I have believed you. Of course I would have. What are yu talking about? That was just one small example.

I still don't know if the scene was truly intended as such or merely an editing issue. Based on the comic, there was more than meets the eye (unfortunate) which would have gone a long way in giving my Warden the context he needed to do it, even if it meant losing her. He would have been OK with that for an 'I must save the galaxy alone with this child because anyone who accompanies me will be destroyed instantly by the Reapers' reason. As if was she was an unconvincing ice queen, who showed herself little more than what you saw of her in the beginning and the scene was just a hair above sinister; and there was no effort to placate the Warden at all.

If it were "a test of faith" as Gaider might claim then I would argue that Morrigan had yet to prove herself worthy of such a thing at that point.

I wouldn't want anyone to take offense, that's just the way I saw it.

Thanks for the research.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 23 avril 2010 - 03:25 .

[Brockololly]

FWIW, if anyone is as OCD as myself about needlessly dissecting quotes from the writers and devs, www.dragonagecentral.com is the place to find all of the dev posts from the old DA forum- there is some interesting stuff there for sure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
I can recall immediately after finishing DAO for the 1st time that I was so sure they would simply make Morrigan into a Kerrigan from Starcraft type character and make her into the villain for DA2. I hope they don't go that route as it would be very tired and boring. Yet I could possibly see them having the Ritual and Morrigan's plans for the Old God Baby maybe not going as Morrigan and Flemeth foresaw it happening. Maybe it will be a case of unintended consequences? Could be interesting, but just speculation at this point.

Yes that was my initial fear as well. I wouldn't really mind it if it's well written, but chances are it would be boring.
Giving us a choice on how to view Morrigan and whether to aid her or fight her would be much better.

And yes unintended consequences could be interesting as well. Something goes wrong and Morrigan tries to track down the Warden so she can enlist his help. Again.

Lately I've been having depressing thoughts. When the ring epilogue triggers, it says that after that one night, where Morrigan expressed sorrow and regret, it also states that this was the last time the Warden ever heard from her. What if something happened to her? What if she died? (I would be royally pissed if she is erased in this fashion).

Urgh so many things could happen and it's headache material. I've never cared for a character so much in my life!

Brockololly wrote...
Even though Gaider and the writers don't like the "gotcha!" moments, I feel like Morrigan dropping the whole Ritual/Old God Baby plot on the Warden sort of was just that- Sure Morrigan foreshadows that she may have an ulterior motive and that the romance won't end well, but did we get any clue that Morrigan's whole point of being sent with the Warden was to have an OGB? That came as a shock and a bit of a "WTF!??" moment for me.

Its even more a puzzle to me when Morrigan says to the Warden: "This is what my mother intended when she sent me with you. She was the one who first gave me this ritual and told me of what I was meant to do." Followed by "This does not surprise you, does it? Did you not wonder why Flemeth saved your life, why she aided you? This is why."
That line bugs me- Morrigan says it with such nonchalance that almost any time I play through and get to that point I feel like having my Warden throw his arms up in the air and go "Huh? I'm not supposed to be surprised that Flemeth saved me and Alistair for the reason of impregnating her daughter so that when we kill the Archdemon its soul can seek out the newly formed blastula and create some sort of Old God Baby thing? Oh yeah, you're right Morrigan, that doesn't surprise me at all- totally saw that one coming.":huh:

It was definately a WTF moment, but I did not take it as a "gotcha" moment. It would have been "gotcha" if Morrigan never really loved the Warden and just faked it, which is not the case. Maybe "gotcha" as in "youthought you will live happily ever after together"? But that's somewhat minor.

It will really depend on what they decide to do next. If Morrigan becomes bat**** crazy and does something stupid, this would be a "gotcha" moment and the forums will have to feel my wrath. But up until now, it's more like "we've got you by the balls" rather than "gotcha". 

As for Flemeth, I think she meant that it was obvious Flemeth wanted something from us. To be hoenst it wasn't that obvious to me, but it wasn't a full shock (the fact that Flemeth wants something). The surprise is in what they want. I never expected an old god thing. Which is kind of good, it was a great plot twist.
 

Brockololly wrote...
So how could they canonize the Ritual? First, for the US Wardens, you could go about it 2 ways, either have the dead Warden's choices carry through and start as mayeb the Orlesian Warden or Bioware could just be like in ME2 where if your Warden died in Origins, their story is over and in DA2 you'll play with a new default Warden.

The explanation "she banged an Orlesian" would be very unsatisfactory though. Even if it would be necessary. I have no idea.
Sometimes I do think Bioware pushed themselves in a corner and they don't know what to do with it. And if the sequel is indeed planned for a February 2011 release, which is too soon, we might find ourselves with a rushed game (like Awakening was, as so many things, small things, were cut.)
 

Brockololly wrote...
As for the Architect and the Old God Baby- again this is why I was so disappointed we could kill the Architect in Awakening. The Architect is in my opinion a very intriguing character, especially in The Calling, and I really hope we get to see him again- for better or worse. If yo go by his attitude in the Calling or even from his note in his lab, it seems the Architect has no love for the Old Gods. Its made clear in the Calling he would like to simply see them dead. Yet in Awakening it seems he tried to un-taint Urthemiel to no avail and in his codex note from his lab suggests maybe he should have just killed it. So how would the Arrchitect react to MOrrigan and a kid with the soul of an Old God? WOuldn't this make Morrigan, who seeks to free the Old Gods be in dircet opposition to the Architect who may want to just kill the Old Gods? I guess this depends on whether or not an "awakened" Old God still emits the song and calls to the darkspawn. Or if an awakened, untainted Old God still could be tainted.

Lots of interesting questions... hopefully the Warden can get some answers to these questions in DA2.

Yea giving us the option to kill the Architect was a bad one (even if it was, in and of itself a great and very complex choice). But what is more interesting than the Architect is the concept of Awakening. They can easily replace the Architect with a Disciple of his who would continue his work. They did the same with wrex, by replacing him with abrother (?) of his. So it's not that huge a deal, even if it means that the Architect is now wasted potential.

If indeed the Architect was trying to free Urthemiel (which I think he did), then logically the God Child shouldn't be a threat, as it is what he was trying to do. I think he reached the conclusion of killing the old Gods after a failed experiment. Morrigan's ritual however wielded the results he wanted. So I do not think he would want to kill the God Child. But he definately wants something from it. Blood maybe? Or does he genuinely wants to free the old Gods like he wants to free the darkspawn?

We don't know yet. But based on the info we have, the Architect's plan and Morrigan's ritual are not necessarily mutually exclusive, unless Morrigan plans to use the God child to enslave the darkspawn or wipe them out or something to that effect. This can develop in so many ways.

And yes hopefully it will be THE Warden who will get to the bottom of this. This event is of huge importance (much more important than a blight). No rookie hat no one cares about should deal with this. 
The only non-Warden character I would be willing to play in a sequal would be the God Child him / herself. Being sent off to do some errands by Morrigan should definately be interesting.
But it wouldn't compensate for the lack of romane closure.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2010 - 04:01 .

[Count Viceroy]

Nonvita wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

Interesting. It certainly makes Morrigan look more beautiful (of course, this is a matter of personal taste, but it seems that way to me.) 

I'm also wondering if it makes her look more like her VA, Claudia Black -- or the other actress that immediately sprung to mind was .... Rachel Weisz.

Yes, it's modeled after Claudia Black. It's one of the options in the DA Redesigned mod. I use an earlier version that keeps the original hairstyle.

Actually, Morrigan was based on the model Victoria Johnson, there was a maxim magazine issue on it pre launch.

http://www.maxim.com...agons-agei.html

DA redesigned one i have (there's plenty of versions) He only went further trying to capture the likeness. And I'd like to think he succeeded.

Axekix wrote...

I never could get used to that hair style
on Morrigan.  It just seems so... impractical. 

Maybe it could
work for when she lets her hair down in camp...

There's several different hairstyles to choose from, including the original. It's mainly the morph itself that's better. Gives the face better proportions imo.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 23 avril 2010 - 04:28 .

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes that was my initial fear as well. I wouldn't really mind it if it's well written, but chances are it would be boring.
Giving us a choice on how to view Morrigan and whether to aid her or fight her would be much better.

From everything I've read from the beginning about the world of Drago Age is that the moral choices are supposed to be all about sahdes of gray. Making Morrigan- who really epitomzes the world of DA and all its conflicts- into some villain type to be defeated would be boring. I have no doubt they could make such a villainous path interesting, but I'd likely be disappointed.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Lately I've been having depressing thoughts. When the ring epilogue triggers, it says that after that one night, where Morrigan expressed sorrow and regret, it also states that this was the last time the Warden ever heard from her. What if something happened to her? What if she died? (I would be royally pissed if she is erased in this fashion).

I think it precisely states: "She had once claimed that it formed a connection between the two, and there came a night when he was sure that she was thinking of him... somewhere. She felt regret, and sorrow. But the ring told no more." So I don't know I if I would despair over that dialogue necessarily, nothing seems final about that IMO.

If anything, the epilogue gives me hope they'll pick up her romance otherwise why bait  the player with lines like this: "There was no word of her after that. With Flemeth dead--or at least gone--the chances of tracking her down were slim indeed. One cannot help but wonder, however: What became of the child? What were Morrigan's plans? These questions must remain a mystery... for now." So suyre the chances of tracking Morrigan sown are slim- Morrigan could always seek the Warden out (like you mentioned), or maybe the Warden can use the ring somehow to find her. Bioware would be unimaginably cruel to throw out those speculative questions and tack on the "...for now" and then not bring Morrigan back for the sequel.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It will really depend on what they decide to do next. If Morrigan becomes bat**** crazy and does something stupid, this would be a "gotcha" moment and the forums will have to feel my wrath. But up until now, it's more like "we've got you by the balls" rather than "gotcha".

Yeah, its obviously a great way to hook people for a potential sequel and I would lose all faith in Bioware if they decided to just brush Morrigan's story aside or take the Neverwinter Nights route and only peripherally mention the events of Origins in DA2. I remember reading early after Awakening was released that some guy on another forum was claiming Morrigan was actually the Mother. I've heard that several times in fact. Turning Morrigan into a broodmother would be a "gotcha!" moment I think.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sometimes I do think Bioware pushed themselves in a corner and they don't know what to do with it. And if the sequel is indeed planned for a February 2011 release, which is too soon, we might find ourselves with a rushed game (like Awakening was, as so many things, small things, were cut.)
 

That would be my fear as well with regards to the 2/1/2011 title. My hope would be that Awakening really had a small crew working on it (compare the credits in the manual for Origins versus Awakening) and for all of its problems, of which there are many, Awakening wasn't terrible in my book. Definitely not up to par with Origins, but up to this point, only ME2 and BG2 are the true Bioware sequels we've had the pleasure to play and I'd say in both cases ME2 and BG2 were far better than their predecessors. So I'm hopeful that with a bigger budget and team working on DA2, Bioware could make DA2 bigger and better than Origins. Thats probably being abit optimistic though- I feel like single player story driven RPGs are a dying breed. Outside of sandbox RPGs like Fallout 3 or Oblivion, you just don't have many 80+ hour single player RPGs now.  Hopefully Bioware can prove me wrong, but I'd wager DA2 is much shorter than Origins.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If indeed the Architect was trying to free Urthemiel (which I think he did), then logically the God Child shouldn't be a threat, as it is what he was trying to do. I think he reached the conclusion of killing the old Gods after a failed experiment. Morrigan's ritual however wielded the results he wanted. So I do not think he would want to kill the God Child. But he definately wants something from it. Blood maybe? Or does he genuinely wants to free the old Gods like he wants to free the darkspawn?

Maybe I'm missing something but what the hell was the Architect thinking when he tried to do his reverse Joining on a slumbering Old God? Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the Architect's ritual uses Grey Warden blood and some of his magic to basically perform a reverse-Joining on darkspawn, thus freeing them from the Call of the slumbering Old Gods. Fair enough. But what was he doing trying to find Urthemiel? Wasn't Urthemiel untainted when slumbering and thus not in need of the Architect's ritual? Or was he trying to use it to silence the Call of the Old God, yet at the same time being rediculously naive or stupid in thinking that he would be able to get close to the Old God without tainting it?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And yes hopefully it will be THE Warden who will get to the bottom of this. This event is of huge importance (much more important than a blight). No rookie hat no one cares about should deal with this. 
The only non-Warden character I would be willing to play in a sequal would be the God Child him / herself. Being sent off to do some errands by Morrigan should definately be interesting.
But it wouldn't compensate for the lack of romance closure. 

I just don't get why some people think that just because there isn't a Blight, the Wardens haev nothing to do. There is SO much more to explore while playing as a Warden. The whole Old God Baby thing is great and I'd love to visit the Anderfels and Weisshaupt to see how differently the Wardens are treated up there. And I want griffons, dammit!

Ideally, I think DA2 would maybe take place 5-10 years after Origins and return the Warden and reunite with Morrigan. Give the player some closure here and then in DA3 if they want to have the PC be the Old God Kiddo , they could go that route. Although, I'm a bit hesitant playing as a God child again- we already did the whole Bhaalspawn thing in BG2 and they don't need to retread that ground, as good as it may have been. BUt playing as the Old God Kid with Morrigan as your mom? After having romanced her? Weird stuff.....

[Nonvita]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Actually, Morrigan was based on the model Victoria Johnson, there was a maxim magazine issue on it pre launch.

http://www.maxim.com...agons-agei.html

DA redesigned one i have (there's plenty of versions) He only went further trying to capture the likeness. And I'd like to think he succeeded.

Oh, you're right, sorry! What was I thinking? Victoria Johnson is gorgeous, and I agree that it just seems to give Morrigan better proportions.

Anywho, go back to your discussions, boys (and girls).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, its obviously a great way to hook people for a potential sequel and I would lose all faith in Bioware if they decided to just brush Morrigan's story aside or take the Neverwinter Nights route and only peripherally mention the events of Origins in DA2. I remember reading early after Awakening was released that some guy on another forum was claiming Morrigan was actually the Mother. I've heard that several times in fact. Turning Morrigan into a broodmother would be a "gotcha!" moment I think. 

It would be a "raped ya" moment for me. No way Morrigan is the Mother. The Mother clealry existed when Urthemiel was tainted. Although I am interested in the Mother's background. It's never explained why she could breed "the Children".

Brockololly wrote...
That would be my fear as well with regards to the 2/1/2011 title. My hope would be that Awakening really had a small crew working on it (compare the credits in the manual for Origins versus Awakening) and for all of its problems, of which there are many, Awakening wasn't terrible in my book. Definitely not up to par with Origins, but up to this point, only ME2 and BG2 are the true Bioware sequels we've had the pleasure to play and I'd say in both cases ME2 and BG2 were far better than their predecessors. So I'm hopeful that with a bigger budget and team working on DA2, Bioware could make DA2 bigger and better than Origins. Thats probably being abit optimistic though- I feel like single player story driven RPGs are a dying breed. Outside of sandbox RPGs like Fallout 3 or Oblivion, you just don't have many 80+ hour single player RPGs now.  Hopefully Bioware can prove me wrong, but I'd wager DA2 is much shorter than Origins.

No Awakening wasn't terrible, I loved it. But I couldn't shake the feeling that it was rushed. Only a few more months of development would have made it better.
I hope that 2/1/2011 title is an expansion and not a sequel. And maybe Morrigan's plot could be delt with there, but I do believe that something of that importance should have a sequel dedicated for it.

Brockololly wrote...
Maybe I'm missing something but what the hell was the Architect thinking when he tried to do his reverse Joining on a slumbering Old God? Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the Architect's ritual uses Grey Warden blood and some of his magic to basically perform a reverse-Joining on darkspawn, thus freeing them from the Call of the slumbering Old Gods. Fair enough. But what was he doing trying to find Urthemiel? Wasn't Urthemiel untainted when slumbering and thus not in need of the Architect's ritual? Or was he trying to use it to silence the Call of the Old God, yet at the same time being rediculously naive or stupid in thinking that he would be able to get close to the Old God without tainting it?

I think, and this is speculation on my part, that the Architect wanted to give Uthermiel resistance to the taint. So when the darkspawn find it, they can't taint it thus can not start a blight. But that wouldn't make much sense, since like you said Uthermiel should be untainted. But maybe the architect's ritual can also work on the untainted and it grants resistance to the taint. Or maybe it's a special kind of ritual he prepared. That's also a problem in Awakening. Too much stuff happens and there is very little explanation.

Brockololly wrote...
I just don't get why some people think that just because there isn't a Blight, the Wardens haev nothing to do. There is SO much more to explore while playing as a Warden. The whole Old God Baby thing is great and I'd love to visit the Anderfels and Weisshaupt to see how differently the Wardens are treated up there. And I want griffons, dammit!

Ideally, I think DA2 would maybe take place 5-10 years after Origins and return the Warden and reunite with Morrigan. Give the player some closure here and then in DA3 if they want to have the PC be the Old God Kiddo , they could go that route. Although, I'm a bit hesitant playing as a God child again- we already did the whole Bhaalspawn thing in BG2 and they don't need to retread that ground, as good as it may have been. BUt playing as the Old God Kid with Morrigan as your mom? After having romanced her? Weird stuff.....

The thing is, Wardens are only meant to fight the darkspawn and nothing else. So if somethign interesting happens in Thedas, say like a Qunari invasion, technically the Warden is not supposed to do anything. So if the Warden is to make a comeback, it should be somethign darkspawn related, which is not hard to do. The Old Gods and the blight seem to be greatly linked, so whatever it is Morrigan has done will have an impact on the darkspawn, whether for good or bad.

And lol yea it might be weird. Still, you will feel like playing the fruit of a beautiful romance plot that has been cultivated since Origins. It would be very interesting to see Morrigan talking about the dad (who would be dead? ). I wouldn't mind if they go that route, but like you said, only when they give closure to the Warden's story and his romance with Morrigan.


 

[Master Shiori]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The thing is, Wardens are only meant to fight the darkspawn and nothing else. So if somethign interesting happens in Thedas, say like a Qunari invasion, technically the Warden is not supposed to do anything. So if the Warden is to make a comeback, it should be somethign darkspawn related, which is not hard to do. The Old Gods and the blight seem to be greatly linked, so whatever it is Morrigan has done will have an impact on the darkspawn, whether for good or bad.

And lol yea it might be weird. Still, you will feel like playing the fruit of a beautiful romance plot that has been cultivated since Origins. It would be very interesting to see Morrigan talking about the dad (who would be dead? ). I wouldn't mind if they go that route, but like you said, only when they give closure to the Warden's story and his romance with Morrigan.


 

While it's true that the reason for Grey Warden's existence is to stop the Blights, consider that a century or more can pass between them.

In that time I doubt the Grey Wardens would simply sit around and do nothing.

We know that they can deal with smaller Darkspawn incursions or raids and they would probably be on the lookout for potential recruits, but beyond that I would imagine them being free to do whatever they want as long as they don't end up abandoning the order or their duties.

In Anderfels you have the Wardens basically ruling the entire country when not busy killing Darkspawn.

My guess is that as long as our Warden can come up with a logical reason as to why he would leave Ferelden, then the Wardens wouldn't really need any details about what he's doing or why.

As for how much time might have passed between Origins and a sequal, I did some calculations based on what we learn in epilogues in Origins and Awakening.

As far as I can tell 6 months have passed since the Archdemon was slain and Morrigan vanished. I'm not sure how long the events in Awakening lasted but we do know that after killing the Mother, the Warden stayed on for about 5 years until Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine were being rebuilt. After that was done he/she left for part unknown (possibly Orlais).

So I'd say it's likely we're looking at 6 or more years before the events of DA2 start.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 23 avril 2010 - 01:25 .

[blademaster7]

Master Shiori wrote...

As far as I can tell 6 months have passed since the Archdemon was slain and Morrigan vanished. I'm not sure how long the events in Awakening lasted but we do know that after killing the Mother, the Warden stayed on for about 5 years until Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine were being rebuilt. After that was done he/she left for part unknown (possibly Orlais).

So I'd say it's likely we're looking at 6 or more years before the events of DA2 start.

Hm, I don't know about that. The epilogue seemed more like a fast forward to me. In DAO you read about what happens in Ferelden years later(sacred ashes, Connor going to the circle. etc etc) but your next adventure is six months later.

I would assume it's the same thing for Awakening(Amaranthine, Justice etc). Leliana's epilogue states that she reunited with the Warden a year after the blight.

Anything is possible I guess. I just hope they don't fast forward the whole thing 30 years and let the Warden die in the deep roads or something.

[Master Shiori]

blademaster7 wrote...

Hm, I don't know about that. The epilogue seemed more like a fast forward to me. In DAO you read about what happens in Ferelden years later(sacred ashes, Connor going to the circle. etc etc) but your next adventure is six months later.

I would assume it's the same thing for Awakening(Amaranthine, Justice etc). Leliana's epilogue states that she reunited with the Warden a year after the blight.

Anything is possible I guess. I just hope they don't fast forward the whole thing 30 years and let the Warden die in the deep roads or something.

Didn't know about Leliana's epilogue since I've yet to import a character that romanced her.

I do remember that the writers said in FAQ for Awakening that the expansion takes place 6 months after the events in Origins.

As for epilogue slides about Connor, Sacred Ashes, etc. they could take place months or years after the battle of Denerim. I always saw them as taking place over a longer period of time, which doesn't mean our Warden wasn't off on new adventures in the meantime.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 23 avril 2010 - 01:22 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Brockololly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes that was my initial fear as well. I wouldn't really mind it if it's well written, but chances are it would be boring.
Giving us a choice on how to view Morrigan and whether to aid her or fight her would be much better.

From everything I've read from the beginning about the world of Drago Age is that the moral choices are supposed to be all about sahdes of gray. Making Morrigan- who really epitomzes the world of DA and all its conflicts- into some villain type to be defeated would be boring. I have no doubt they could make such a villainous path interesting, but I'd likely be disappointed.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Lately I've been having depressing thoughts. When the ring epilogue triggers, it says that after that one night, where Morrigan expressed sorrow and regret, it also states that this was the last time the Warden ever heard from her. What if something happened to her? What if she died? (I would be royally pissed if she is erased in this fashion).

I think it precisely states: "She had once claimed that it formed a connection between the two, and there came a night when he was sure that she was thinking of him... somewhere. She felt regret, and sorrow. But the ring told no more." So I don't know I if I would despair over that dialogue necessarily, nothing seems final about that IMO.

If anything, the epilogue gives me hope they'll pick up her romance otherwise why bait  the player with lines like this: "There was no word of her after that. With Flemeth dead--or at least gone--the chances of tracking her down were slim indeed. One cannot help but wonder, however: What became of the child? What were Morrigan's plans? These questions must remain a mystery... for now." So suyre the chances of tracking Morrigan sown are slim- Morrigan could always seek the Warden out (like you mentioned), or maybe the Warden can use the ring somehow to find her. Bioware would be unimaginably cruel to throw out those speculative questions and tack on the "...for now" and then not bring Morrigan back for the sequel.

Yeah, definitely don't worry about the "Regret and Sorrow" Epilogue in that respect.  It does clearly state: "...but the ring told no more."  So I would say that is left as a plot opening more so than any sort of finality. 

My problem is that this Epilogue only triggers if you've been reduced to friendship status with her.  The one thing that gave a glimmer of hope (the regret and sorrow Epilogue) is only shown if you talk to her AFTER the final farewells at the Gates of Denerim and prior to the Archdemon battle, which reduces your relationship with her to friends.  It really sucks. 

If you forego talking to her after the Gates of Denerim farewells, you get to keep a Love relationship, but you do not get the regret and sorrow Epilogue.  Completely screwed up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
If you forego talking to her after the Gates of Denerim farewells, you get to keep a Love relationship, but you do not get the regret and sorrow Epilogue.  Completely screwed up.

Now imagine. DA2 lets us import this, but if you get the ring epilogue, Morrigan will treat your Warden as only a friend and the romance would be gone. lol I would be so pissed that I would flame this forum and probably get banned.

Seriously, Bioware should take this into account. I really don't want to play DA2 with my canonical Warden, only to find out that Morrigan forgot about the romance because of this bug. That would push me to make another playthrough and I would still miss the ring ending. Ugh.
 

[Barbarossa2010]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
If you forego talking to her after the Gates of Denerim farewells, you get to keep a Love relationship, but you do not get the regret and sorrow Epilogue.  Completely screwed up.

Now imagine. DA2 lets us import this, but if you get the ring epilogue, Morrigan will treat your Warden as only a friend and the romance would be gone. lol I would be so pissed that I would flame this forum and probably get banned.

Seriously, Bioware should take this into account. I really don't want to play DA2 with my canonical Warden, only to find out that Morrigan forgot about the romance because of this bug. That would push me to make another playthrough and I would still miss the ring ending. Ugh.
 

Depressing scenario follows:

PC: (Having searched all of Thedas for years for his Dark Haired Sorceress, finally finds her in a secluded cave in the Frostback Mountains) "Morrigan, by the Maker, I have found you my love...oh my...is...is...is that our child?"

Morrigan:  "What comes my friend?"

The end.

My question is, is it really a bug or intended to be as such?  We don't know and BW has not said.

Yeah, you are spot on though.  I think a full out riot would break out on this site.

[Shade of Wolf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...
I got the impression that Morrigan was an atheist (woot) but then I was very confused, because she was in awe of Andraste's Ashes. Are the Old Gods considered the same as the Maker?

That was sarcasm.

I don't thinks so, she says ''I am in  awe, [pause] truly'' I think this was to show that she wasn't being sarcastic, but who knows, Andraste could have been a delusional crazy woman who thought she was getting it from some god >.<

[Shade of Wolf]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Lol LOTR freak fan here, read the children of Húrin 3 times, and the Family of Húrin, not very sad compared to others in the Silmarillion and Unfininshed Tales, but still sad.
For some reason I've never classed Tolkien's books as 'Fantasy', let alone 'High Fantasy', but it definintely doesn't class as 'Dark Fantasy'................my head hurts..

Yeah, who the heck can truly classify?, but I think JRRT was a bit more of a traditionalist.  CoH was a shock to me, and yeah, I read everything that came prior.  Just wasn't expecting it from him.

Good story though.

Yes, very good story, good to know I'm not the only one who still likes LOTR lol.

[Addai]

Shade of Wolf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...
I got the impression that Morrigan was an atheist (woot) but then I was very confused, because she was in awe of Andraste's Ashes. Are the Old Gods considered the same as the Maker?

That was sarcasm.

I don't thinks so, she says ''I am in  awe, [pause] truly'' I think this was to show that she wasn't being sarcastic, but who knows, Andraste could have been a delusional crazy woman who thought she was getting it from some god >.<

It's sarcasm.  Morrigan's attitude towards the whole business is that it's a big time sink, much like Sten.

[ejoslin]

Shade of Wolf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...
I got the impression that Morrigan was an atheist (woot) but then I was very confused, because she was in awe of Andraste's Ashes. Are the Old Gods considered the same as the Maker?

That was sarcasm.

I don't thinks so, she says ''I am in  awe, [pause] truly'' I think this was to show that she wasn't being sarcastic, but who knows, Andraste could have been a delusional crazy woman who thought she was getting it from some god >.<

Morrigan sounded very sarcastic to me there.  So I looked it up.  VO note, as my usual style, in the parens.

Morrigan: I stand in awe. Really. (Very sarcastic.)

[Shade of Wolf]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I wish I didn't buy this game for Xbox 360

Me too

[Shade of Wolf]

ejoslin wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...
I got the impression that Morrigan was an atheist (woot) but then I was very confused, because she was in awe of Andraste's Ashes. Are the Old Gods considered the same as the Maker?

That was sarcasm.

I don't thinks so, she says ''I am in  awe, [pause] truly'' I think this was to show that she wasn't being sarcastic, but who knows, Andraste could have been a delusional crazy woman who thought she was getting it from some god >.<

Morrigan sounded very sarcastic to me there.  So I looked it up.  VO note, as my usual style, in the parens.

Morrigan: I stand in awe. Really. (Very sarcastic.)

Oooooooooohhhh thanks guys! Sorry, I don't have it on pc =( Well I guess it makes more sense now.