16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Esbatty]

Thats it, next big convention its time for a Warden Flash Mob.

[Terra_Ex]

I've only briefly read through it, might have some further thoughts on this tomorrow, anyways. The most interesting part I found however is Gaider's response to Knight, as that has always been the primary issue for me (since WH was released) with regard to Morrigan's return in a future title as I simply can't believe that the writers didn't know exactly what kind of expectation such as ending would impress on the player. I notice it's a question that is always skirted around and it is the root issue that has the romancers in knots regarding it. The friendly and hostile endings likewise leave one with with no real answers.

ElvaliaRavenHart succinctly describes the rationale behind player desires with this:

I think this is all fans are really saying, they want their  warden to see the conclusion of that plot thread to it's conclusion with the original character that started the storyline with her.

Now, this is why I've said previously (depending on what shape DA3 takes and Morrigan's role in it is) they *might* be able to get away with the warden in a non-PC supporting role though that in itself is not without its difficulties. Whilst I will agree that the "Morrigan plot" belongs to Morrigan, I think it's well established that many players would like to see a resolution to that thread that is inclusive of their character. Just today the topic of DA came up when chatting to some friends who hadn't been following DA2 closely, hadn't played WH and they were surprised to learn that Hawke was not the god-child and the point came up that they felt DA2 should have retained your existing character. The point of bringing this up is that certain aspects of DA:O obviously stick in the mind of the player, and the Morrigan one, even if it is a side quest it's evidently an aspect of DA that many find intriguing, I daresay I enjoyed that small side story (and how it tied in with the larger narrative) more than the primary plotline.

Back to the point at hand though, taking the mirror world ending as an example, the warden's "presence" in DA3 would at the very least validate the WH ending, whilst perhaps not providing the most satisfactory method of approaching it, this would work for Morrigan romancers and potentially have little impact on whatever else they want to do in DA3.

But the key point being made, which I agree with, is it depends on what role Morrigan has in DA3 and the overall plot for that game - this sets the boundaries and defines who exactly is necessary to conclude the thread, maybe it could include all wardens, maybe a new protagonist with a possible appearance by the warden in the case of a mirror world ending.

I suppose ultimately, putting aside all the variables, all that I would want out of this no-canon setup is the simple assurance that my choice would have a logical follow through in a future game. That's pretty much what it boils down to, as a player you should be able to rest easy knowing that Morrigan in DA3 would be reactive to your choices, and were you to go through the mirror, that should be accounted for as well. This whole situation (with regards to a sizeable number of players repeatedly posting regarding this issue) really strikes me as something that shouldn't really be occuring at all and is perhaps indicative of an inherent weakness of a series that focuses on the world but also features deep character development that fosters attachment and expectations. Had we that assurance, then I'd happily throw money at BioWare until we got to the game with Morrigan in it.

MKDAWUSS wrote...
Ummm, doesn't that last sentence contradict the rest of that statement? He's saying that the Warden has a prominent role in Morrigan's story, but it's not about him because if you take him out of Morrigan's story it still survives as it is.

I think he's saying that once the warden has done his/her bit (DR/Flemeth) Morrigan's story can continue on without them. Essentially stating that Morrigan does her own thing after Origins. I think by that definition though the warden *could* arguably still continue to play a role in the plot, though I think they're trying to give her story a grander sense of scale by separating it in that manner.

MKDAWUSS wrote...
You know, I'm not exactly convinced that Morrigan's story still holds up the same way without the Warden, because there was a significant amount of character building, provided by the Warden adding a layer of complexity that otherwise wouldn't be there.

That is a point that we've made... several times now by latest estimates. I do wonder if this approach with Thedas as the main character but with recurring characters will work. One could argue that bringing Morrigan back into a prominent role shares many of the difficulties associated with bringing the warden back, especially if you want to retain her depth and reflect the choices you made.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 23 novembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

*sigh* To quote Han Solo, "I've got a bad feeling about this..."

Its interesting that he says Morrigan's story is only a side plot, which makes me kind of question whether Morrigan really doesn't have that big of a role to play in the future- or he was just saying her mystery plot was a side plot in Origins. I get that he's trying to temper expectations but its about the same thing he said prior to DA2.

It's the second one.

He isn't saying Morrigan isn't important, since Laidlaw already said she is, in world changing ways. What he's saying is that there would be a bigger struggle going on than just Morrigan's personal story and that's not something you can just throw the Warden in and hope he fits.

And he does have a point about it being extremely difficult and unwieldy. First, there's the fact that not every DA:O Warden ended up in the same situation. That'll require some retconning to sort out. Second, having the Warden be a human, elf or dwarf cannot be pulled off with VO. You'd need to either get 2 people to voice all 3 races (and have all the Wardens speak the same regardless of race) or you need to retcon the Warden to being a human noble or human mage. None of that would sit well with people. Third, cinematics would need to be unique for each race, since you can't just copy paste a dwarf into a cinematic meant for a human.
And that's just some of the technical details. I'm not even try to start explaining the writing part.

So while David will never deny that the prospect of having the Warden deal with Morrigan again isn't tempting from writing perspective (it certainly is, as he admitted), it's a whole different thing to make it actually work.

[Master Shiori]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

The Morrigan side plot applies here in particular-- some people seem to think that's "the Warden's story" simply because their PC intersected with it (possibly-- though only possibly--
in a very significant way). But that's not the Warden's story. That's 
Morrigan's story. While the Warden may feature a prominent (or even 
starring) role in it, that's not the same as it being about the 
Warden... if you can remove a character from the story and it survives 
intact, then I think that pretty much proves the point.

Ummm, doesn't that last sentence contradict the rest of that statement? He's saying that the Warden has a prominent role in Morrigan's story, but it's not about him because if you take him out of Morrigan's story it still survives as it is.

You know, I'm not exactly convinced that Morrigan's story still holds up the same way without the Warden, because there was a significant amount of character building, provided by the Warden adding a layer of complexity that otherwise wouldn't be there.

... then again, there's Oghren so what am I talking about...

What he's saying is that your Warden could have jut as easily hated Morrigan's guts and never spoke to her or did her personal quest and denied her the DR in the end and there would still be Morrigan's story to tell in DA3.
Warden has a lot of influence on how Morrigan's story shapes up, but he only influences the direction it goes in. Without him the story would still be there.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 23 novembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Morrigans God son]

Master Shiori wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

*sigh* To quote Han Solo, "I've got a bad feeling about this..."

Its interesting that he says Morrigan's story is only a side plot, which makes me kind of question whether Morrigan really doesn't have that big of a role to play in the future- or he was just saying her mystery plot was a side plot in Origins. I get that he's trying to temper expectations but its about the same thing he said prior to DA2.

It's the second one.

He isn't saying Morrigan isn't important, since Laidlaw already said she is, in world changing ways. What he's saying is that there would be a bigger struggle going on than just Morrigan's personal story and that's not something you can just throw the Warden in and hope he fits.

And he does have a point about it being extremely difficult and unwieldy. First, there's the fact that not every DA:O Warden ended up in the same situation. That'll require some retconning to sort out. Second, having the Warden be a human, elf or dwarf cannot be pulled off with VO. You'd need to either get 2 people to voice all 3 races (and have all the Wardens speak the same regardless of race) or you need to retcon the Warden to being a human noble or human mage. None of that would sit well with people. Third, cinematics would need to be unique for each race, since you can't just copy paste a dwarf into a cinematic meant for a human.
And that's just some of the technical details. I'm not even try to start explaining the writing part.

So while David will never deny that the prospect of having the Warden deal with Morrigan again isn't tempting from writing perspective (it certainly is, as he admitted), it's a whole different thing to make it actually work.

 When did David admit that?  He should learn to give into his temptations...IT WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER.

[Master Shiori]

Morrigans God son wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

*sigh* To quote Han Solo, "I've got a bad feeling about this..."

Its interesting that he says Morrigan's story is only a side plot, which makes me kind of question whether Morrigan really doesn't have that big of a role to play in the future- or he was just saying her mystery plot was a side plot in Origins. I get that he's trying to temper expectations but its about the same thing he said prior to DA2.

It's the second one.

He isn't saying Morrigan isn't important, since Laidlaw already said she is, in world changing ways. What he's saying is that there would be a bigger struggle going on than just Morrigan's personal story and that's not something you can just throw the Warden in and hope he fits.

And he does have a point about it being extremely difficult and unwieldy. First, there's the fact that not every DA:O Warden ended up in the same situation. That'll require some retconning to sort out. Second, having the Warden be a human, elf or dwarf cannot be pulled off with VO. You'd need to either get 2 people to voice all 3 races (and have all the Wardens speak the same regardless of race) or you need to retcon the Warden to being a human noble or human mage. None of that would sit well with people. Third, cinematics would need to be unique for each race, since you can't just copy paste a dwarf into a cinematic meant for a human.
And that's just some of the technical details. I'm not even try to start explaining the writing part.

So while David will never deny that the prospect of having the Warden deal with Morrigan again isn't tempting from writing perspective (it certainly is, as he admitted), it's a whole different thing to make it actually work.

 When did David admit that?  He should learn to give into his temptations...IT WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER.

I asume you mean the bolded part.

He said something to that effect in his last post on DA2 forums. The topic about Warden's story not being over.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 23 novembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Master Shiori]

Honestly though, we should all be less concerned about whether or not the Warden makes an appearance in DA3 and more about how much of an impact our choices and history with Morrigan are going to have on her story.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 23 novembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[I set my friends on fire]

Hello Morrigan fans, i am a recent convert, Morrigan is awesome. loved her, espicially her banters with Leliana.

[UFOash]

I set my friends on fire wrote...

Hello Morrigan fans, i am a recent convert, Morrigan is awesome. loved her, espicially her banters with Leliana.

Lol I missed Leliana, I thought she was probably recruited in the Brecillian Forests or somewhere lol.
I'll have to pick her up on my next playthrough.


EDIT: oh yeah welcome comrade

Modifié par UFOash, 23 novembre 2010 - 08:33 .

[thenemesis77]

To keep each game with a new PC but you have Flemeth and Morrigan, makes it so hollow and washed out. You know them but the PC might seem to know ABOUT them but know them as the Warden did.

You could make a great story with the Warden dealing with the huge war that is on the rise, he knows Morrigan and Flemeth, how does this not make for a great story? You don't have to use just his love for Morrigan but his hope to help the people of the world, he is a hero and would want to help. You could do wonders with the Warden but to just use a new PC with each game and just make it about the lore....makes its like too much water in the koolaid and it's just a washed out story.

We should have seen this, David never likes a PC that will carry over, he wants his lore to be the save of the day for his story.....without great characters.....even David's lore fails and to me I never gave a crap about his lore as I did the characters.

Modifié par thenemesis77, 24 novembre 2010 - 12:26 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Morrigan's story can already exist without the warden.



If you turn down the DR then they go separate ways.

If the Warden does do the DR but decides to bugger off into the sunset, or stay and do his/her own things they are separate.



Really the only ending that ties the two together is the Witch Hunt ending.



You cant really base a game around just that really.

Not everyone romanced Morrigan

Not everyone did the DR

Not even people who did both, played Witch Hunt.



Bioware like it or not has to SELL a product, you sell a product by making it have a mass appeal and a large base of people to get it.

Dragon Age 2 is their attempt at that.



Because while many people would love DA2: The Morrimancer's strike back, it wont sell that well compared to what EA and Bioware would like.

I have many wardens and only well about a third of them are in any way connected to Morrigan's story anymore.



Games cost money, and you have to sell them to make a profit. Niche games can sell decently but nowhere near as much as a AAA game can.

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Morrigan's story can already exist without the warden.

If you turn down the DR then they go separate ways.
If the Warden does do the DR but decides to bugger off into the sunset, or stay and do his/her own things they are separate.

Really the only ending that ties the two together is the Witch Hunt ending.

You cant really base a game around just that really.
Not everyone romanced Morrigan
Not everyone did the DR
Not even people who did both, played Witch Hunt.

I'll can agree with that, but it's also the only decision that winds up with lasting consequences. Everything else undoes itself.

Lothering: Rebuilt with a statue of the Hero of Ferelden, no matter what you do.
Redcliffe: Rebuilt, Eamon has a mage child, Isolde dies in 2 outcomes (and presumably in a third), no matter what you do.
Circle Tower: See Witch Hunt.
Brecilian Forest: Vacant of Elves and Werewolves, no matter what you do.
Anvil of the Void: Research on it continues, no matter what you do.
Orzammar Monarchs: Can be canceled out by a revolution that dissolves the Assembly and eliminates the royal family (either Bhelen's or Harrowmont's), propping in a hard-set/canon succesor and government.
Ferelden Monarchs: Die childless, leading to a hard-set/canon successor, no matter what you do (hinted at enough times regarding both individuals).
Amaranthine: Both the city and the keep get rebuilt no matter what you do, and you really don't affect much of the other places you visit regardless. Possibly one regarding the Architect, but that can be subject to cheap retcons
Remaining DLC: Linear in terms of choices period.
Companions: Characters exit stage left and live their lives out, no matter what you do.

A return of Morrigan would basically be something similar to a conversation that came up several years back about another franchise, where someone popped the question of reintroducing a long-absent character. If Morrigan returns, the hardcore base will be asking "Where's the baby (or the Warden)?" and the newbies will be asking "Who's the baby (or the Warden)?"

Although, I suppose it could be inferred that Morrigan has a child regardless (either by the Warden or some Orlesian), who is born in Orlais, which would be another "no matter what you do" moment...

[Giggles_Manically]

Morrigan is up to something with the mirrors no matter what happens though.



All I know is that Bioware cant really devote itself to following Morrigan around when new players will be having WTF? moments if they have no clue what is happening.

While the warden had a HUGE effect on Morrigan, she can and does exist without them.



There is only ONE ending where the warden and Morrigan are still together. One ending is not enough to base a sequel on for a AAA game.

I would like to see what my Havelock Vetinari mage and Dalish who romanced her are getting up to in the sequel but I also have over 18 charachters who are no longer part of her story.



So yes Gaider is correct Morrigan's story is her own, and can exist without the Warden, very easily it seems.

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So yes Gaider is correct Morrigan's story is her own, and can exist without the Warden, very easily it seems.

But at the same time, can the Warden totally be ignored? Again, it sorta' boils down to the "Where vs. Who" argument that I mentioned.

Anyway, you gotta' give BioWare credit for doing one heck of a job of giving you choices that really have an effect but no impact.

By this time 2 years from now we'll be having a similar chat about Hawke and his lasting legacy lol.

[Giggles_Manically]

I will come to like my canon Hawke like I enjoy my canon shep I guess.



Honestly though Bioware created too many variables and cant cover them all, just with Morrigan. Add to that needing new players they just can cover Morrigan's story as well as it should be.



Now back to watching some classic Jackie Chan.

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I will come to like my canon Hawke like I enjoy my canon shep I guess.

Honestly though Bioware created too many variables and cant cover them all, just with Morrigan. Add to that needing new players they just can cover Morrigan's story as well as it should be.

There's not as many variables as you might think - the problem is that those variables that actually exist are so significant and divergent from each other.

[Brockololly]

Yeah, if anyone is interested, there are a handful of new Gaider quotes in the aforementioned thread in the DA2 forums, but nothing new in terms of that four lettered word known as "hope."

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
... as I simply can't believe that the writers didn't know exactly what kind of expectation such as ending would impress on the player. I notice it's a question that is always skirted around and it is the root issue that has the romancers in knots regarding it. The friendly and hostile endings likewise leave one with with no real answers.
[/quote]
Yeah, again, its about expectations and if you allow or offer up that Eluvian ending to people, surely you'd have to think that people might expect the Warden in that instance to come back whenever Morrigan does? If they have no intention or serious plan as to offering a meaningful follow up on that plot thread, then I'd wonder what they're thinking?

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Now, this is why I've said previously (depending on what shape DA3 takes and Morrigan's role in it is) they *might* be able to get away with the warden in a non-PC supporting role though that in itself is not without its difficulties. [/quote]
Yeah, bringing back the Warden in an actual physical presence where you aren't controlling him/her? In my view thats waaaaay more likely to blow up in BioWare's faces- you'd conceivably need voice and then you have the notion of a very much player defined characetr all of a sudden no longer in the player's control?  I won't say it couldn't work, but I think you'd have far more people crying bloody murder over their Warden all of a sudden sounding like Manly Macho Man Hero and acting in a way that was out of character for how you were RPing them.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Just today the topic of DA came up when chatting to some friends who hadn't been following DA2 closely, hadn't played WH and they were surprised to learn that Hawke was not the god-child and the point came up that they felt DA2 should have retained your existing character. The point of bringing this up is that certain aspects of DA:O obviously stick in the mind of the player, and the Morrigan one, even if it is a side quest it's evidently an aspect of DA that many find intriguing, I daresay I enjoyed that small side story (and how it tied in with the larger narrative) more than the primary plotline.[/quote]

Absolutely- for me, the driving force behind me rushing to finish Origins my first time through was to find out what was going on with Morrigan and her plans- the Archdemon and all that was really boring in comparison.

I was talking with a friend recently who just finished Origins after I recommended it to him since he enjoyed ME2. And he asked me how he can't wait for the sequel to find out about Morrigan and his Warden's "Demon Kid" as he said. I had to break the news that the Warden and Morrigan weren't going to be in DA2 and showed him the 2 trailers for DA2. Suffice it to say,  his reaction  to  the DA2 trailer was interesting (real quotes)- it went from disbelief ("You've got to be ******* kidding me!" "This isn't Dragon Age, man! What is this!?") to bargaining ("Well, at least thats the Demon Kid all grown up, right?") to rage ("This ******* blows.") to disinterest ("Dude, fall on the grenade that is DA2 when it comes out and let me know if I should bother.") So yeah, the whole Morrigan thread and the Warden is a pretty touchy issue for many.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
But the key point being made, which I agree with, is it depends on what role Morrigan has in DA3 and the overall plot for that game - this sets the boundaries and defines who exactly is necessary to conclude the thread, maybe it could include all wardens, maybe a new protagonist with a possible appearance by the warden in the case of a mirror world ending.[/quote]
Right- and hopefully, DA2 can, if nothing else, give some possible context as to how Morrigan might return.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I suppose ultimately, putting aside all the variables, all that I would want out of this no-canon setup is the simple assurance that my choice would have a logical follow through in a future game. That's pretty much what it boils down to, as a player you should be able to rest easy knowing that Morrigan in DA3 would be reactive to your choices, and were you to go through the mirror, that should be accounted for as well. [/quote]
Exactly, it comes down to the devs recognizing what reactions and expectations they're creating through the choices they're affording people in the game. And given how they're screaming how its all about player choice and everything, to not follow through on that in a meaningful way for the big choices (no emails) is what people reasonably expect.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I think he's saying that once the warden has done his/her bit (DR/Flemeth) Morrigan's story can continue on without them. Essentially stating that Morrigan does her own thing after Origins. I think by that definition though the warden *could* arguably still continue to play a role in the plot, though I think they're trying to give her story a grander sense of scale by separating it in that manner.[/quote]
GIven the nature of Morrigan's reappearance and whether the "change" has anything at all to do with the Wardens, I'd think that would be fair grounds to expect the Warden to return. If its not as the main PC, I'd really like even to see the Warden return as a temporary PC or something- have multiple protagonists and switch to the Warden in Morrigan's big moment or whatever.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
That is a point that we've made... several times now by latest estimates. I do wonder if this approach with Thedas as the main character but with recurring characters will work. One could argue that bringing Morrigan back into a prominent role shares many of the difficulties associated with bringing the warden back, especially if you want to retain her depth and reflect the choices you made.
[/quote]
Yeah, I tried making this point in the aforementioned thread. The thing is that if Morrigan returns to a new PC, it would almost have to be a generic Morrigan, in the sense that it would be like her reaction to the Orlesian or to the Warden back in the Korcari Wilds. And thats old ground really. Unless they drastically revamp her character for whatever reason- but that kind of lessens the resonance of bringing Morrigan back anyway.

[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
Anyway, the other thing I have to post is to try to counter some of the doom  and gloom of the DA2 threads... a while back I mentioned I would be  making a parody one-shot of the Morrigan romance with my main male  warden. Well, I started it last night and finished it today.
[/quote]

Excellent- I'll have to read it in a bit!

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Honestly though, we should all be  less concerned about whether or not the Warden makes an appearance in  DA3 and more about how much of an impact our choices and history with  Morrigan are going to have on her story.[/quote]
Well thats what I'm wondering- if the Warden isn't present in Morrigan's story when the **** hits the fan in DA3 or whenever, what sort of impact are we expecting the Warden to have had on her and affect her in what way? Obviously the Old God Baby being there, but to what end, if the Eluvian is the last we've seen of the Warden? If Morrigan has to make some big decision at some point how would her past with the Warden affect that versus having the Warden there to directly interact with her? Let alone su still having no clue what her plans are, so we really have no idea how our Wardens would react to them. That BioWare would have a romanced Morrigan act differently somehow than a Morrigan that was just BFFs with a Warden? To me, I guess that could work, but it seems like it could end up feeling rather tacked on potentially.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Morrigan's story can already exist without the warden.
If you turn down the DR then they go separate ways.
If the Warden does do the DR but decides to bugger off into the sunset, or stay and do his/her own things they are separate.[/quote]
Right- but each Warden meets back up with her in WH no matter what. Conceivably, if they had a role for the Wardens in the overall plot of Morrigan's, as is implicated they just might in WH, then you can easily fit a Warden back in as PC- Hero of Ferelden or Orlesian)

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Really the only ending that ties the two together is the Witch Hunt ending.[/quote]
Physically, sure. But beyond that- hell no. You walk up to somebody and stab them in the gut after they offer a gift to you and then kick their body into a portal and say thats not some kind of personal connection that ties the 2 people together? Or if you did the DR or had Alistair or Loghain do the DR? In that case the Warden was the one that started the ball rolling on Morrigan's plot. Or conversely if you turned down the DR and that results in Morrigan doing X instead of Y, then wouldn't the Warden be linked to her in that way?

Obviously you don't need the Warden as the PC in those instances to see some level of consequences, but in each case, I think it would make for a hell of more compelling storyline if it was the original PC to encounter Morrigan again. Seriously, I would love to see Morrigan's reaction to seeing my spineless worm of an Orlesian Warden again after he gut stabbed her and left her for dead. WIth a new PC , you can see the indirect consequence of that, but the impact is  totally blunted.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
You cant really base a game around just that really.
Not everyone romanced Morrigan
Not everyone did the DR
Not even people who did both, played Witch Hunt.[/quote]
Sure, and I don't think anyone is proposing they make a game solely revolving around that stuff. Its just that if and when Morrigan does return, it would be nice if those past choices and interactions with her amounted to something worth a damn and weren't just handwaved away or dealt with in the most distant way possible. And besides, I'd bet even if you didnt play WH, a default choice will just be made then when those flags come into play.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Because while many people would love DA2: The Morrimancer's strike back, it  wont sell that well compared to what EA and Bioware would like.[/quote]
Eh, they wouldn't know until they tried now would they?

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Games cost money, and you have to sell them to make a profit. Niche games can sell decently but nowhere near as much as a AAA game can.[/quote]
Well, I'd question whether DAO made a profit necessarily- as they weren't just developing for one game but presumably building a franchise. And the quick turnaround on DA2 is likely to get mo' money mo' faster to recoup costs. But I'd imagine thats sort of the plan as they've always said DA is a franchise.

In any event, as has been said before, I don't think Morrigan's story would be the main plot necessarily in a future game, but it seems to be a major one. And if they want their storytelling no canon approach to amount to anything other than a slick marketing catchphrase, if ever there was a plot that deserved some divergence, it is Morrigan's.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Honestly
though Bioware created too many variables and cant cover them all, just
with Morrigan. Add to that needing new players they just can cover
Morrigan's story as well as it should be.
[/quote]
It depends. If they deem Morrigan's plot important enough, then they could easily allocate the necessary resources to it to have a good level of reactivity. The problem is if they don't- but even WH, which likely had a small-ish budget, reacted to the different "versions" of Morrigan out there. And like I said before, if Morrigan comes back with a new PC, I don't really see how BioWare would necessarily need to account for those differences off the bat, as she wouldn't be acting all sentimental or hostile necessarily to some EPiC NEW HERO thats as good as a stranger to her. It would likely be a vanilla conversation like she has with the Orlesian in WH with maybe a couple flavor lines to make avague reference to the Warden thrown in there.

Modifié par Brockololly, 24 novembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, if anyone is interested, there are a handful of new Gaider quotes in the aforementioned thread in the DA2 forums, but nothing new in terms of that four lettered word known as "hope."

But as you know, 'round these parts, "hope" results in reactions like this:

It depends. If they deem Morrigan's plot important enough, then they could easily allocate the necessary resources to it to have a good level of reactivity. The problem is if they don't- but even WH, which likely had a small-ish budget, reacted to the different "versions" of Morrigan out there. And like I said before, if Morrigan comes back with a new PC, I don't really see how BioWare would necessarily need to account for those differences off the bat, as she wouldn't be acting all sentimental or hostile necessarily to some EPiC NEW HERO thats as good as a stranger to her. It would likely be a vanilla conversation like she has with the Orlesian in WH with maybe a couple flavor lines to make avague reference to the Warden thrown in there.

Well, all Witch Hunt did was add some delay and relegate the story to a later point. You can do that all you want, but the pieces need to come together eventually. Can you take all those pieces out and still have the same story left? Doubtful, but still possible. It'd be significantly watered-down IMO, and a storyline that's taken this long to develop shouldn't be developing into something generic. Granted, all the key moments of this storyline have been generic, one-size-fits-all moments (DR, WH), so who knows...

[Master Shiori]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
... as I simply can't believe that the writers didn't know exactly what kind of expectation such as ending would impress on the player. I notice it's a question that is always skirted around and it is the root issue that has the romancers in knots regarding it. The friendly and hostile endings likewise leave one with with no real answers.
[/quote]
Yeah, again, its about expectations and if you allow or offer up that Eluvian ending to people, surely you'd have to think that people might expect the Warden in that instance to come back whenever Morrigan does? If they have no intention or serious plan as to offering a meaningful follow up on that plot thread, then I'd wonder what they're thinking?
[/quote]

They gave us a proper ending, which is what Morrigan fans wanted since Origins. We kept complaining how everyone got a shot at "happy" ending and we got "gaidered" into Morrigan leaving not matter what we did.
Witch Hunt corrected that by giving us the chance to reunite with her and remain at ther side.
Or, as Gaider himself put it, it gave us some much needed closure.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Now, this is why I've said previously (depending on what shape DA3 takes and Morrigan's role in it is) they *might* be able to get away with the warden in a non-PC supporting role though that in itself is not without its difficulties. [/quote]
Yeah, bringing back the Warden in an actual physical presence where you aren't controlling him/her? In my view thats waaaaay more likely to blow up in BioWare's faces- you'd conceivably need voice and then you have the notion of a very much player defined characetr all of a sudden no longer in the player's control?  I won't say it couldn't work, but I think you'd have far more people crying bloody murder over their Warden all of a sudden sounding like Manly Macho Man Hero and acting in a way that was out of character for how you were RPing them.
[/quote]

I can guarantee that if they don't manage to find a way to bring back the Warden as the pc, they won't being him back at all. When you could customize a character in so many ways it's simply impossible to have him be an npc.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Just today the topic of DA came up when chatting to some friends who hadn't been following DA2 closely, hadn't played WH and they were surprised to learn that Hawke was not the god-child and the point came up that they felt DA2 should have retained your existing character. The point of bringing this up is that certain aspects of DA:O obviously stick in the mind of the player, and the Morrigan one, even if it is a side quest it's evidently an aspect of DA that many find intriguing, I daresay I enjoyed that small side story (and how it tied in with the larger narrative) more than the primary plotline.[/quote]

Absolutely- for me, the driving force behind me rushing to finish Origins my first time through was to find out what was going on with Morrigan and her plans- the Archdemon and all that was really boring in comparison.

I was talking with a friend recently who just finished Origins after I recommended it to him since he enjoyed ME2. And he asked me how he can't wait for the sequel to find out about Morrigan and his Warden's "Demon Kid" as he said. I had to break the news that the Warden and Morrigan weren't going to be in DA2 and showed him the 2 trailers for DA2. Suffice it to say,  his reaction  to  the DA2 trailer was interesting (real quotes)- it went from disbelief ("You've got to be ******* kidding me!" "This isn't Dragon Age, man! What is this!?") to bargaining ("Well, at least thats the Demon Kid all grown up, right?") to rage ("This ******* blows.") to disinterest ("Dude, fall on the grenade that is DA2 when it comes out and let me know if I should bother.") So yeah, the whole Morrigan thread and the Warden is a pretty touchy issue for many.
[/quote]

Well, if there's one weak link in DA:O it's the ability to get so many different endings and world states based on your decisions. Personally, I don't think Hawke's story in DA2 is a bad thing. I do however believe that a lot will hang on how well Bioware can make our choices in each game matter in the sequals. If we do get the feeling that our actions shape the world and influence future events than it'll work. If it feels like each game is a new story that owns very little to previous ones than you've got a problem ala NWN.



[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I suppose ultimately, putting aside all the variables, all that I would want out of this no-canon setup is the simple assurance that my choice would have a logical follow through in a future game. That's pretty much what it boils down to, as a player you should be able to rest easy knowing that Morrigan in DA3 would be reactive to your choices, and were you to go through the mirror, that should be accounted for as well. [/quote]
Exactly, it comes down to the devs recognizing what reactions and expectations they're creating through the choices they're affording people in the game. And given how they're screaming how its all about player choice and everything, to not follow through on that in a meaningful way for the big choices (no emails) is what people reasonably expect.
[/quote]

*claps*

Finaly!!

That the gist of what I tried to make you guys understand. We cannot influence whether or not the Warden comes back, because that decision depends on too many factors that aren't even solely under Gaider's control.

What we can (and should) focus on is making sure the writers know that our choices and relationship with Morrigan are important and need to have an impact on how her story plays out. This is something that everyone can support us on, since denying our request would also bring into question the value of every choice and relationship that the player can have in DA:O and DA2.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I think he's saying that once the warden has done his/her bit (DR/Flemeth) Morrigan's story can continue on without them. Essentially stating that Morrigan does her own thing after Origins. I think by that definition though the warden *could* arguably still continue to play a role in the plot, though I think they're trying to give her story a grander sense of scale by separating it in that manner.[/quote]

The Warden plays a role due to his actions having an impact on Morrigan in Origins, whether that impact was love, friendship or hate. As long as that has an influence on Morrigan it doesn't really matter if the Warden is there or not.

As for bolded part; True, the Warden could play a role (theoreticaly, since it would be damn hard to pull off and make it work for everyone), but always having the Warden around would make it look as if the story was his rather than Morrigan's.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
That is a point that we've made... several times now by latest estimates. I do wonder if this approach with Thedas as the main character but with recurring characters will work. One could argue that bringing Morrigan back into a prominent role shares many of the difficulties associated with bringing the warden back, especially if you want to retain her depth and reflect the choices you made.
[/quote]

Not really. Morrigan was more strickly defined by the end of DA:O than the Warden was. What's more, she's fully under the control of the writers and thus is easier to use than the Warden who could develop in a lot of different ways.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, I tried making this point in the aforementioned thread. The thing is that if Morrigan returns to a new PC, it would almost have to be a generic Morrigan, in the sense that it would be like her reaction to the Orlesian or to the Warden back in the Korcari Wilds. And thats old ground really. Unless they drastically revamp her character for whatever reason- but that kind of lessens the resonance of bringing Morrigan back anyway.
[/quote]

How do we know? We don't know under which circumstances Morrigan will be back, much less anything about the new PC. And as Morrigan herself tells you in Origins: "I can be friendly when I deisre to". If she decides that the new PC is important to her as an ally than she'll certainly try to leave a good impression, rather than pull out her "I hate you like Alistair" or "I need the Wardens and don't give a damn about the rest of you" attitude.
Morrigan may not be as skilled at manipulating people like Leliana is, but she's far from innocent.

Besides, Gaider said in that topic you linked that if he had a new PC in DA3 than that character wouldn't stand there wondering "Who the hell is this dark-haired witch?".

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Honestly though, we should all be  less concerned about whether or not the Warden makes an appearance in  DA3 and more about how much of an impact our choices and history with  Morrigan are going to have on her story.[/quote]
Well thats what I'm wondering- if the Warden isn't present in Morrigan's story when the **** hits the fan in DA3 or whenever, what sort of impact are we expecting the Warden to have had on her and affect her in what way? Obviously the Old God Baby being there, but to what end, if the Eluvian is the last we've seen of the Warden? If Morrigan has to make some big decision at some point how would her past with the Warden affect that versus having the Warden there to directly interact with her? Let alone su still having no clue what her plans are, so we really have no idea how our Wardens would react to them. That BioWare would have a romanced Morrigan act differently somehow than a Morrigan that was just BFFs with a Warden? To me, I guess that could work, but it seems like it could end up feeling rather tacked on potentially.
[/quote]

This is how I would do it, if I were a writer:

Morrigan would, naturaly, behave in much the same way regardless of your choices in Origins or WItch Hunt. since she would be following the plot of the new game. The moments when you're previous actions would start to matter is during her conversation with the PC, where the PC (who would at very least be familiar with the Warden's story in Origins and Morrigan obvious role in it) could have her comment on the events in DA:O and then add his own thoughts on the matter (new players get a "default" Morrigan here, while importad saves get new dialogue: 1-2 sentences like Witch Hunt).
This way, the new player can also influence Morrigan to a degree, either by reinforcing what the Warden taught her or trying to change it a bit (entirely under player's control, giving new players a chance to have an impact rather than just sit and watch).
Ultimately, based on your choices and influence with Morri, you'd reach the end where Morrigan gets 2 different endings: "good" and "bad" or "she lives" and "she's dead".

"good" ending would wary depending on your choices in DA:O and DA3, similar to how "Alistair is king" ending did. If you romanced her she gains power/freedom and reunites with her lover. If you were her friend, she does the same but pursues her own life, forever remembering the leassons taught to her by the Warden and the new PC. If you treated her badly in Origins, but made sure she survived in DA3, she would become a powerfull sorceress but retain her personality from the beginning of Origins. She'd hold the rest of mankind in contempt, live in seclusion and consider emotion to be a weakness due to being betrayed by the Warden in Witch Hunt and never having a true friend.

"bad" ending would either have Morrigan die, or appear to die on screen, depending on whether the writers deemed her story done or wanted to keep her around for possible future roles. Regardless, it would be the very worst ending available.

There. Not exactly perfect but I hope it showed how you can keep player's choices and still have Morrigan fit a general role in the new game.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 24 novembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[Move Along]

I like Morrigan but we know Morrigan's story now. What will she spend hours talking about in another game? the God Baby? Another 50 hours with Morrigan might sound exciting but die quickly. I'm sure we will get a mention of Morrigan in DA2.

[Morrigans God son]

Move Along wrote...

I like Morrigan but we know Morrigan's story now. What will she spend hours talking about in another game? the God Baby? Another 50 hours with Morrigan might sound exciting but die quickly. I'm sure we will get a mention of Morrigan in DA2.

I'm sure BioWare can do better than that...

[ximena]

Move Along wrote...

I like Morrigan but we know Morrigan's story now. What will she spend hours talking about in another game? the God Baby? Another 50 hours with Morrigan might sound exciting but die quickly. I'm sure we will get a mention of Morrigan in DA2.

We know Morrigan? Her past, yes. But do we know what she plans for the future? No. Not even a single bit. Well maybe we know she has a God Baby or a normal baby. But what then? Do we really know something? Morrigan's story isn't just centered on her. It has Flemeth on it too... and what goes down with her and Flemeth (and the OGB?) is another thing that can shape Thedas.

The way I see it, Morrigan left a LOT of questions (that might not be answered in DAII. Goddamit).

And yes. Bioware can do better than just centering on her and her baby (...which doesn't even exist in some playthroughs.)

And for the whole warden returning thing, I'm not really hopeful on it anymore. It would be nice, but yeah. I do care more about how the choices made in Origins affects Morrigan. If we just get a one-size-fits-all Morri regardless of whatever the hell happened, then that breaks it for me. Sadly. And I have high hopes that Bioware won't do that. D: 

[Untamed_skies]

As much as I'd like myself to see a meaningful return of both Morrigan and her love (if you took that path) the fact remains is that it's alot to assume that they take so much time to worry about every aspect of what her and the warden did unless they intended to make a second Warden. It could happen, they could take their time, pour crazy resources into it and give everyone everything they want. As far as I see it they have 3 options in which they could chose to go through from this point.

1.) In a Perfect world- They could really take their time like they seem to have been doing with Mass Effect, and that's making sure you have to encorporate everything that may or may not have happened, how, where, when, why? Make sure there are no lose and wrapped up angles and make sure you've completed a complete story. To leave anything out would immidiatly start wars and people complaining "I didn't do that, I didn't do this," and in that way they could potentially make everyone happy. The only thing they'd need to do that a selection of their base wouldn't like is give the warden a voice. Which I really don't view as a problem, some people hate silent protagonist, some people like them but hate certain voices and some people love voices altogether. Can't please everyone but there is one key reoccuring theme and that's they want too feel impact on their plot points, so while you may not be getting to eat the whole of a pie you're still getting a nice big slice of it.

2.) In a realistic world- The one I feel is the more likely as it would take a great deal less effort is to simply have the warden die or disappear in one way or another. They didn't follow Morrigan didn't do the DR didn't have Allistair/Loghain do it then they simply vanished and Morrigan has no care for the fool. You could add the warden saved himself did the DR but they were never close and "he fullfilled his use and I was done with him." The next would be They romanced her and didn't do the DR and didn't follow her leads to, "I loved him once upon a time, but love is foolish." The last one is Romanced her did the DR and didn't follow her which would lead to "I loved him, but this needed to be done, I couldn't allow anything to stop me."  The final bit of everything is simple and if the did WH (which I believe has a save now?) Referrence what happened there. "I hate him for trying to kill me," or "I loved him deeply but I couldn't let him come," or "Despite all my efforts to disuade him my love stuck ever by my side *insert mushy lines*"

As for what happens it's not too much of a stretch to say the taint took him or he vanished. And if it's within the 30 year time limit just say Flemmeth killed him furthering Morrigans hate. A key aspect is DR or not her child has no idea the ability he has so that wouldn't nessasarily be a problem, and if they needed the child to be powerful the nice thing about Magic is you can usually make BS up. This way everyone would get a slice of pie, maybe it's smaller but hey pie is pie

3.) In a miserable world- They could really downplay everything the Warden did, ignore all the good you "could have done," and write the Warden out completly and pretend he/she never exsisted. That way no one could complain about romancing anyone because no one got anything. They could make up some BS because of magic about her finding someone that could be useful have a child, infuse with magic and go her own jolly way. But that way instead of worrying how equal the slice of pie is they just don't give anyone pie. Maybe you don't get pie but then no one else does and that way everything is "fair"

[Terra_Ex]

Yeah, more responses on our fave topic... No flashy pics as I'm feeling lazy.

[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
This is meant as a parody, as I mentioned before when I announced it a while back. If you like the show "Scrubs," you might find this funny. Otherwise it's kinda stupid and I wouldn't be surprised if I was ridiculed endlessly or chased with torches because of the sheer stupidity of this... but hey, I'm kind of a random person, and when I get these types of ideas, I have to use them anyway, hopefully you enjoy and you don't think its too dumb of a parody.
[/quote]

The scrubs bromance I assume, I've chosen to use the season 9 iteration as in this context, Season 9 serves as a metaphor for the overall direction DA  seems to be leaning towards (coincidentally it also tosses most of the regular cast out the door).

Since you brought it up, I actually found parallels in Gaider's increasing irritation in that thread and .
this scene from Scrubs, with Gaider taking the role of Dr.Cox, naturally.

Annnnyway, now that PMA has finished distracting me, some responses.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Morrigan's story can already exist without the warden.
...
Really the only ending that ties the two together is the Witch Hunt ending.
[/quote]
Indeed it can, but as Brock states all wardens meet up with her in WH and that and the change could be used  as some kind of backdrop for a future title. With regards to the ending you referenced - you see the issue here, right? Let's say that BioWare wants to handle Morrigan's finale through a new PC, that's fine, you can do that to the exclusion of all other endings barring the mirror one, but if you handwave that away then I fail to see the merit in its existence. For romance closure you could have maybe had Morrigan making some promise to a romantically involved warden in Origins, which could have been tied up in the closing moments of DA3. I can't give further conjecture than that really, the writers gave us that as one ending in WH so that's all we can go off.

The problem from a romance & game ending perspective in Origins was there was little reasoning for why the warden was unable to accompany Morrigan, the option simply wasn't there and the topic couldn't be broached whatsoever - ie: BW have subverted the player's influence to force a certain event. Now, Witch Hunt remedies this for the wardens who romanced her, but does so in a way that implies that wherever Morrigan's story takes her, that warden would likely be close at hand.

Since we're talking about the subjective "ends" of each character's story and how this ties in with various the LI, consider some of the ways Alistair's romance ending (and his role in the Blight plotline) can pan out in an US playthrough- incredibly powerful scenes, made so only because the player chose to romance him and thus they get the emotional payoff at the end. Bearing in mind the "Morrigan plot" will likely be the last we'll see of her I think it's fairly important for at least those who took those choices to see it to its conclusion. Thus far, the Morrigan plot simply draws the player along, you *just about* get some measure of closure in WH, but surely you can see how DA3 could, potentially, take that away in a snap? Now you can write that off as the player being over-enamoured by the romance aspect, sure, or you can recognise that players want to see an end to her arc that includes their character because its the logical follow through for their ending. Whilst you can try to separate the romance aspects from Morrigan's plot, there has to be interplay and connectivity between the two in order for it to function as a cohesive and endearing experience for the player.

The "Morrigan's story is not done" promise looms like a guillotine over the whole affair - you don't have that with any other aspect of the game. Final closure on the mirror ending (at least for me) is entirely dependent on how BioWare choose to approach the continuation/conclusion of Morrigan's story.

It's a good ending from a romance perspective within the context of Origins, but it does heavily imply that particular warden will continue to be a part of Morrigan's story. That's how I see it anyhow, conclusions drawn from what I witnessed in-game.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Because while many people would love DA2: The Morrimancer's strike back, it wont sell that well compared to what EA and Bioware would like.
[/quote]
But nobody has claimed that Morrigan would be the sole focus of any potential new Dragon Age game. Perhaps Morrigan's role in DA3 is Flemeth-esque, working behind the scenes and only happened upon once or twice by chance- in which case a cameo or two of the mirror world warden would be completely appropriate without rocking the boat with any other endings to Origins. (The Awakening slide already throws a spanner in the works somewhere down the line, but who knows if any of it even matters anymore.) Does it waste the storyline potential - possibly, but it hinges on how great of a role Morrigan has in the plot. The greater the role, the greater the expectation unfortunately.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
All I know is that Bioware cant really devote itself to following Morrigan around when new players will be having WTF? moments if they have no clue what is happening.[/quote]
And by the same logic they can't keep repeating past mistakes of plot hammer>player choice or believing that email=effective plot resolution and expect players to retain an interest in the product they are selling if all choices are ultimately reduced/belittled to nothing.

New players, I'm not sure tbh, ME2 did it, many other games do it and with DA we are apparently working towards something, you can't slam the brakes on everything because of a hypothetical "new" audience with each iteration. If I start a series on a sequel and think it's decent, I'll make a point of picking up the earlier titles as well.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
While the warden had a HUGE effect on Morrigan, she can and does exist without them.
[/quote]
That's somewhat self evident and misses the point. Considering BioWare is one of the few developers to employ a dedicated writing team, it stands to reason that all primary companions should have sufficient personality to stand on their own - it's a given. Should the plot hammer overcome choices available in-game? Should the warden be completely excluded in all game states because it "can be done" another, easier way? There's also the disconnection between what the player knows and what a theoretical "new PC" knows and that blends in with how the original player character has interacted with the companions. For Morrigan, all insight into her as a character and her plans thus far is exclusive to the warden. Her demeanour is such that she won't "reveal all" in a future title without it seeming tremendously contrived imo.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
There is only ONE ending where the warden and Morrigan are still together. One ending is not enough to base a sequel on for a AAA game.
[/quote]
In and of that single plot thread, I agree, but again it depends on the greater plot arc of DA3.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I would like to see what my Havelock Vetinari mage and Dalish who romanced her are getting up to in the sequel but I also have over 18 charachters who are no longer part of her story.
[/quote]
In this no-canon setting, your 18 characters aren't (or shouldn't be) stopping something regarding the warden from occurring in my worldstate. In terms of what decisions are actually important moving forwards I'd surmise that there will be very little variance between such a large number of characters regardless, many choices will be localised solely to Ferelden and will thus be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The big decision of Origins is the DR, all outcomes of this branch tie in with the Blight/Morrigan/Flemeth to some degree.


To cut to the point, BioWare can and will deal with Morrigan as they see fit. Many feel there are benefits to reprising the warden, myself included, this would necessitate a new overarching plotline for the game to tie them all in, so the relative strength of "Morrigan's plot" as a singular draw/hook is irrelevant if they go with that approach. Should they go with a brand new PC however, it becomes highly relevant for those that chose the mirror world ending. I'd hardly consider it a show-stopping "ZOMG it can't be done" affair for a warden who went through the Eluvian with her to show up at some point in DA3. While it's certainly not my preference it's a hell of a lot better than some handwave excuse.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I will come to like my canon Hawke like I enjoy my canon shep I guess.
[/quote]
Eh, personal taste imo, VO distances me from the character so unless BW have revolutionised the genre I can't see myself becoming as immersed as I was in DA:O. It's the third wheel syndrome in my case, you the player are watching two or more characters interacting rather than being an active participant yourself, and this is especially true of romance scenes, or any part of the game where the protagonist speaks at length with minimal input from the player.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, bringing back the Warden in an actual physical presence where you aren't controlling him/her? In my view thats waaaaay more likely to blow up in BioWare's faces- you'd conceivably need voice and then you have the notion of a very much player defined characetr all of a sudden no longer in the player's control?  I won't say it couldn't work, but I think you'd have far more people crying bloody murder over their Warden all of a sudden sounding like Manly Macho Man Hero and acting in a way that was out of character for how you were RPing them.
[/quote]
Know this Brock, in terms of this conundrum, my view and ideal resolution are very much in alignment with your own - there should be as much reactivity to player choice with regards to Morrigan as possible (and this extends to catering for those that followed Morrigan in some manner), this should be reflected in her story. Like you, I too feel that reprising the warden would provide the best solution when it comes to resolving this plot thread. However, since any possible warden reappearance apparently requires some sort of divine intervention to make it work I'm willing to set my own personal bar considerably lower than usual, in the hope that perhaps we'll get some semblance of closure that isn't relegated to an epilogue wrap up. I'm certainly not saying it's the ideal solution, as we've discussed previously, there are many ways they could approach this.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
GIven the nature of Morrigan's reappearance and whether the "change" has anything at all to do with the Wardens, I'd think that would be fair grounds to expect the Warden to return. If its not as the main PC, I'd really like even to see the Warden return as a temporary PC or something- have multiple protagonists and switch to the Warden in Morrigan's big moment or whatever.
[/quote]
Yep, plenty of ways to handle it and give the story a meaningful resolution without having to essentially negate the warden. Since BioWare is becoming rather flexible with regards to staple elements and preconceptions of the rpg genre I'd certainly like to see something like a multi-protagonist approach because it's been done to great effect in the past, add in some of BioWare's writing and I can certainly see it working.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Obviously you don't need the Warden as the PC in those instances to see some level of consequences, but in each case, I think it would make for a hell of more compelling storyline if it was the original PC to encounter Morrigan again. Seriously, I would love to see Morrigan's reaction to seeing my spineless worm of an Orlesian Warden again after he gut stabbed her and left her for dead. WIth a new PC , you can see the indirect consequence of that, but the impact is  totally blunted.
[/quote]
Indeed.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Sure, and I don't think anyone is proposing they make a game solely revolving around that stuff.
[/quote]
Aye, a common misconception.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
In any event, as has been said before, I don't think Morrigan's story would be the main plot necessarily in a future game, but it seems to be a major one. And if they want their storytelling no canon approach to amount to anything other than a slick marketing catchphrase, if ever there was a plot that deserved some divergence, it is Morrigan's.
[/quote]
Absolutely.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
It depends. If they deem Morrigan's plot important enough, then they could easily allocate the necessary resources to it to have a good level of reactivity. The problem is if they don't- but even WH, which likely had a small-ish budget, reacted to the different "versions" of Morrigan out there. And like I said before, if Morrigan comes back with a new PC, I don't really see how BioWare would necessarily need to account for those differences off the bat, as she wouldn't be acting all sentimental or hostile necessarily to some EPiC NEW HERO thats as good as a stranger to her. It would likely be a vanilla conversation like she has with the Orlesian in WH with maybe a couple flavor lines to make avague reference to the Warden thrown in there.
[/quote]
Well, WH did give me some hope that we'd see some decent wrap up to this thread in the future, seeing as how it accounted for seemingly minor elements such as the "normal" child, however Gaider's recent efforts to temper expectations cast doubt on just how much divergence we'll see in Morrigan's plot arc.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
They gave us a proper ending, which is what Morrigan fans wanted since Origins. We kept complaining how everyone got a shot at "happy" ending and we got "gaidered" into Morrigan leaving not matter what we did.
Witch Hunt corrected that by giving us the chance to reunite with her and remain at ther side.
Or, as Gaider himself put it, it gave us some much needed closure.
[/quote]
I couldn't disagree more Shiori, for the reasons I made to Giggles earlier. That only works as a definitive ending/closure/happy ending if Morrigan never appears again. I'll restate that for me personally it's more about seeing the end to that thread with my character playing some kind of role in its climax than it is about the "happy ending". You can "call" something/anything an ending but if Morrigan's story is not over and the warden went through the mirror with her, I fail to see how you can justify finitely that his part in Morrigan's tale (switching the two around there) is over, given that you've just made an in-game choice that is clearly to the contrary. Naturally they can do a time skip or something, but I think that proves my own and Brock's points about choice within DA.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
I can guarantee that if they don't manage to find a way to bring back the Warden as the pc, they won't being him back at all. When you could customize a character in so many ways it's simply impossible to have him be an npc.
[/quote]
Perhaps. Weak though it may be, you can go with the fully armoured / cowled figure approach. I believe the devs said they had some way to approximate things iirc. Plus given BioWare's newfound love for unique appearances I'd imagine they could come up with several unique looks for the warden. But this is the problem. If the warden can accompany Morrigan in WH yet there's no possible way he can possibly have any screen time or influence on the story, that ending doesn't serve a purpose past creating a false expectation.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Well, if there's one weak link in DA:O it's the ability to get so many different endings and world states based on your decisions. Personally, I don't think Hawke's story in DA2 is a bad thing. I do however believe that a lot will hang on how well Bioware can make our choices in each game matter in the sequals. If we do get the feeling that our actions shape the world and influence future events than it'll work. If it feels like each game is a new story that owns very little to previous ones than you've got a problem ala NWN.
[/quote]
Yes and no, if most endings/world state effects and choices are localised to Ferelden then they really don't matter unless we return there. We've moved past the point of our initial displeasure regarding DA2/Hawke (though they've yet to show sufficient PC-material/positive changes to convince me to purchase it at release) but what I object to it is the potential handwaving of player choice because it would be easier to do it another way.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
*claps*

Finaly!!

That the gist of what I tried to make you guys understand. We cannot influence whether or not the Warden comes back, because that decision depends on too many factors that aren't even solely under Gaider's control.

What we can (and should) focus on is making sure the writers know that our choices and relationship with Morrigan are important and need to have an impact on how her story plays out. This is something that everyone can support us on, since denying our request would also bring into question the value of every choice and relationship that the player can have in DA:O and DA2.
[/quote]
Ah, but my statement comes down to the eye of the beholder. Where does response to player choice begin and end. If you choose to interpret my words as say "Morrigan had a romance in Origins, so she should maybe mention it in DA3" that's one way of looking at it. Or, another way is that with WH, you are "making" a discrete choice depending on your warden, it isn't handed to you on a platter like the traditional epilogue. Therefore, at a minimum, the way that ending played out creates an expectation in my mind. To me, if you simply roll over and don't even voice your views on the matter (not saying that you are, just a general point), then you're unlikely to see any real reaction to that choice as the devs would assume everyone was happy with what was there. As more information becomes available/devs make comments on the issue, it's reopened for further discussion. Aside from Baldurs Gate 2>TOB, BioWare have yet to demonstrate to me that they can handle issues like this in a consistently solid manner (most certainly not when switching PCs) between two separate games.

I can appreciate you are advocating a middle ground Shiori, essentially proposing a "focus on the next-best case approach" since the most desirable approach may never come to pass  (believe me, I get that line of thinking), but people are free to discuss their desires for what they'd like to see in a future game, whether this'll have any impact is debatable. If only on sheer principle, I'd have to lean more towards Brock's side of the debate because it has stronger ramifications and a greater cause/effect ratio within the no-canon framework.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
The Warden plays a role due to his actions having an impact on Morrigan in Origins, whether that impact was love, friendship or hate. As long as that has an influence on Morrigan it doesn't really matter if the Warden is there or not.
[/quote]
I think Brock's already covered this point in his previous response. It can be done in a number of ways and the real issue is how large of a role Morrigan plays in DA3. Speaking generally however, if we're talking about a scenario where Morrigan is the Warden's lover and she could potentially die during DA3 (because the armour has to come off at some point), you'll have a hard time convincing me that the Warden's presence at such a moment is not important as it quite clearly adds considerable weight to such a scene. Take a glance at what I said about Alistair earlier. Like everything else, it's a choice that supposed to have an effect on the world and game states.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
As for bolded part; True, the Warden could play a role (theoreticaly, since it would be damn hard to pull off and make it work for everyone), but always having the Warden around would make it look as if the story was his rather than Morrigan's.
[/quote]
I'm not sure this is even really an argument, so much as it was Gaider striving to separate two things. If we say that DA:O is the Warden's story, does that mean that Alistair/Leli/Zev/Morri et al could/should have no part in it because from the moment the GW was recruited, it was the warden's story. Perhaps the GW has no business resolving Leliana's subplot, because it's "her" story. The answer is of course not, and likewise, while whatever the future holds for Morrigan, there's nothing to stop (at a minimum) a romancing warden from continuing to play a part in "her" story because he has a fairly strong reason for being there. It's like BioWare's approach to particular game mechanics that are perceived as not-working, you don't have to saw something off or completely negate it in order to achieve an end goal. It's a challenge sure, but I'd like to see BioWare rise to that challenge and provide a bit of divergence rather than shy away from it.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
This way, the new player can also influence Morrigan to a degree, either by reinforcing what the Warden taught her or trying to change it a bit (entirely under player's control, giving new players a chance to have an impact rather than just sit and watch).
Ultimately, based on your choices and influence with Morri, you'd reach the end where Morrigan gets 2 different endings: "good" and "bad" or "she lives" and "she's dead".
[/quote]
This all assumes that Morrigan will be a party member again and aren't you just undermining the player's choices in DA:O by allowing such a redefinition of Morrigan's character at such a late stage? If we're going with a new PC I'd say new players should have to play through the original titles if they want to make an impact myself.

While a "new PC" might know of the significance of Morrigan, would they ever be privy to more personal information such as her lover, her feelings regarding the DR, her ultimate plan, why the warden isn't present now after walking through the mirror? If she doesn't feel she can share some of this with someone she's close to in Origins/WH, how do they approach it without things seeming somewhat contrived to "fit" the new PC? I do have faith in the writers to craft a decent story but I wonder if they sometimes lose the perspective of the player when crafting larger scale stories, and thus end up having to create annexed DLCs to remedy some of the perceived shortcomings of the core plot.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
... "good" ending would wary depending on your choices in DA:O and DA3, similar to how "Alistair is king" ending did. If you romanced her she gains power/freedom and reunites with her lover.

If you were her friend, she does the same but pursues her own life, forever remembering the leassons taught to her by the Warden and the new PC. If you treated her badly in Origins, but made sure she survived in DA3, she would become a powerfull sorceress but retain her personality from the beginning of Origins. She'd hold the rest of mankind in contempt, live in seclusion and consider emotion to be a weakness due to being betrayed by the Warden in Witch Hunt and never having a true friend.
[/quote]
Right, you've identified the real problem, which is how Morrigan's story will end and how that relates to decisions and the warden PC in Origins. However, your example of say reuniting with her lover - why then was the groundwork for such an ending not in place in the original game - like I posed to Giggles above, for a romanced Morrigan, you could of had a unique scene, perhaps tying it back in with the ring or something in DA3 since Morrigan feels that whatever is coming is of such magnitude that she has to leave. What we got however in the DR was the one size fits all, which kicked off the whole problem. This was addressed in WH but in a manner which imo does imply something more to come.

BUT, the point it all comes down to is the ending, because that can tie back in with previous events, whether on or offscreen. I suspect we could debate this forever though.

[quote]ximena wrote...
And for the whole warden returning thing, I'm not really hopeful on it anymore. It would be nice, but yeah. I do care more about how the choices made in Origins affects Morrigan. If we just get a one-size-fits-all Morri regardless of whatever the hell happened, then that breaks it for me. Sadly. And I have high hopes that Bioware won't do that. D:
[/quote]
Much the same with me regarding the highlighted part, I do find the whole thing somewhat pathetic truth be told, what with the fans themselves rationalising away their own choices (though this only seems to happen because elements of the DA2 board incite it whenever the topic comes up) but we'll see what comes of it in time I suppose. I've formed something of a spectrum of potential satisfaction regarding this issue - with the most satisfying being something like Brock presents, and the somewhat less satisfying moving towards Shiori's examples (not saying they're bad, just not as satisfying as some of the alternatives). I actually find myself agreeing with some posters over on the DA2 board who I would deem to be my polar opposite on this issue when they suggest that perhaps all of this should be dealt with offscreen, if only not to slight any particular group. Thankfully there's an influx of decent titles incoming that I can enjoy without the mandatory descent into madness that DA provides.

Bah, I'm done for now.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 24 novembre 2010 - 08:57 .