[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
They gave us a proper ending, which is what Morrigan fans wanted since Origins. We kept complaining how everyone got a shot at "happy" ending and we got "gaidered" into Morrigan leaving not matter what we did.
Witch Hunt corrected that by giving us the chance to reunite with her and remain at ther side.
Or, as Gaider himself put it, it gave us some much needed closure.
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I couldn't disagree more Shiori, for the reasons I made to Giggles earlier. That only works as a definitive ending/closure/happy ending if Morrigan never appears again. I'll restate that for me personally it's more about seeing the end to that thread with my character playing some kind of role in its climax than it is about the "happy ending". You can "call" something/anything an ending but if Morrigan's story is not over and the warden went through the mirror with her, I fail to see how you can justify finitely that his part in Morrigan's tale (switching the two around there) is over, given that you've just made an in-game choice that is clearly to the contrary. Naturally they can do a time skip or something, but I think that proves my own and Brock's points about choice within DA.
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Ok, let me rephrase that to make it more clear.
Witch Hunt provided you with closure by giving you a chance to decide how things end between Warden and Morrigan. That's something every other romance had except Morrigan one. What it can be taken as is the last time the 2 of them will be onscreen together or the last time you get to influence their relationship as the Warden.
The choice to follow her through the mirror cements their relationship (or establishes it again after the end of DA:O) and, while it can be seen as the promise of Warden appearing again, it only theoreticaly opens that possibility.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
I can guarantee that if they don't manage to find a way to bring back the Warden as the pc, they won't being him back at all. When you could customize a character in so many ways it's simply impossible to have him be an npc.
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Perhaps. Weak though it may be, you can go with the fully armoured / cowled figure approach. I believe the devs said they had some way to approximate things iirc. Plus given BioWare's newfound love for unique appearances I'd imagine they could come up with several unique looks for the warden. But this is the problem. If the warden can accompany Morrigan in WH yet there's no possible way he can possibly have any screen time or influence on the story, that ending doesn't serve a purpose past creating a false expectation.
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It's not easy. Even cowled you need 6 different models just to cover the races (both genders). Add in classes and you're looking at 16 unique models just for the Warden. And let's not even get into VO.
The amount of resources you'd need to commit to just 1 character (who may not even play an important role in the game) would be insane.
The reason for Warden not being in DA3 wouldn't be due to Bioware not wanting to deliver but rather due to resource/time/story constrain.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Well, if there's one weak link in DA:O it's the ability to get so many different endings and world states based on your decisions. Personally, I don't think Hawke's story in DA2 is a bad thing. I do however believe that a lot will hang on how well Bioware can make our choices in each game matter in the sequals. If we do get the feeling that our actions shape the world and influence future events than it'll work. If it feels like each game is a new story that owns very little to previous ones than you've got a problem ala NWN.
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Yes and no, if most endings/world state effects and choices are localised to Ferelden then they really don't matter unless we return there. We've moved past the point of our initial displeasure regarding DA2/Hawke (though they've yet to show sufficient PC-material/positive changes to convince me to purchase it at release) but what I object to it is the potential handwaving of player choice because it would be easier to do it another way.
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The only choices that would effect Morrigan and Warden in future games is their relationship in Origins and Witch Hunt and the DR. Everything else is localized. You can search for my post about most endgame choices a few pages back in this thread, since I really don't want to repeat it here.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
*claps*
Finaly!!
That the gist of what I tried to make you guys understand. We cannot influence whether or not the Warden comes back, because that decision depends on too many factors that aren't even solely under Gaider's control.
What we can (and should) focus on is making sure the writers know that our choices and relationship with Morrigan are important and need to have an impact on how her story plays out. This is something that everyone can support us on, since denying our request would also bring into question the value of every choice and relationship that the player can have in DA:O and DA2.
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Ah, but my statement comes down to the eye of the beholder. Where does response to player choice begin and end. If you choose to interpret my words as say "Morrigan had a romance in Origins, so she should maybe mention it in DA3" that's one way of looking at it. Or, another way is that with WH, you are "making" a discrete choice depending on your warden, it isn't handed to you on a platter like the traditional epilogue. Therefore, at a minimum, the way that ending played out creates an expectation in my mind. To me, if you simply roll over and don't even voice your views on the matter (not saying that you are, just a general point), then you're unlikely to see any real reaction to that choice as the devs would assume everyone was happy with what was there. As more information becomes available/devs make comments on the issue, it's reopened for further discussion. Aside from Baldurs Gate 2>TOB, BioWare have yet to demonstrate to me that they can handle issues like this in a consistently solid manner (most certainly not when switching PCs) between two separate games.
I can appreciate you are advocating a middle ground Shiori, essentially proposing a "focus on the next-best case approach" since the most desirable approach may never come to pass (believe me, I get that line of thinking), but people are free to discuss their desires for what they'd like to see in a future game, whether this'll have any impact is debatable. If only on sheer principle, I'd have to lean more towards Brock's side of the debate because it has stronger ramifications and a greater cause/effect ratio within the no-canon framework.
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The reason I'm advocating the "middle ground" as you put it is because I'm trying to be realistic. Brock, KoP and others have clearly explained our thoughts to David and Bioware. That is all we can realisticaly do. If we continue pestering them we'll just ****** them off and end up on their **** list. And once that happens you can forget about ever being heard by them again.
Just take a look at Sylvius. He was stubbornly complaining about the lack of old school rpg features in DA2 and now nobody gives a damn about his posts.
It's fine to be determined and ask for something a few times (though in my experience suggestions will get you further than demands will), but you need to recognize when it starting to become counter-productive and draw the line. Otherwise, when the time comes for you to ask for something that you can get, nobody will bother to listen anymore.
Trust me, I want nothing more than to play as my Warden and take part in Morrigan's story. But I also need to realize when something is difficult or next to impossible to pull off and be ready to compromise.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
The Warden plays a role due to his actions having an impact on Morrigan in Origins, whether that impact was love, friendship or hate. As long as that has an influence on Morrigan it doesn't really matter if the Warden is there or not.
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I think Brock's already covered this point in his previous response. It can be done in a number of ways and the real issue is how large of a role Morrigan plays in DA3. Speaking generally however, if we're talking about a scenario where Morrigan is the Warden's lover and she could potentially die during DA3 (because the armour has to come off at some point), you'll have a hard time convincing me that the Warden's presence at such a moment is not important as it quite clearly adds considerable weight to such a scene. Take a glance at what I said about Alistair earlier. Like everything else, it's a choice that supposed to have an effect on the world and game states.
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Oh, I agree the Warden's presence would be almost ideal. The difference here is that the story cannot be tailor made to fit just those who romanced Morrigan or were her friend. You'd need to find the reason for every Warden to come back and also to provide an alternative protagonist for those who never played Origins or did US. That means you're looking at Awakening scenario where both Warden and new PC have almost the same dialogue (about 90% of it) and there are no Warden specific scenes since everything needs to fit both characters.
The alternative is to either retcon some of the choices from DA:O (US) or replace the Warden with a new protagonist, but take into account your choices regarding Morrigan and have them actualy matter.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
As for bolded part; True, the Warden could play a role (theoreticaly, since it would be damn hard to pull off and make it work for everyone), but always having the Warden around would make it look as if the story was his rather than Morrigan's.
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I'm not sure this is even really an argument, so much as it was Gaider striving to separate two things. If we say that DA:O is the Warden's story, does that mean that Alistair/Leli/Zev/Morri et al could/should have no part in it because from the moment the GW was recruited, it was the warden's story. Perhaps the GW has no business resolving Leliana's subplot, because it's "her" story. The answer is of course not, and likewise, while whatever the future holds for Morrigan, there's nothing to stop (at a minimum) a romancing warden from continuing to play a part in "her" story because he has a fairly strong reason for being there. It's like BioWare's approach to particular game mechanics that are perceived as not-working, you don't have to saw something off or completely negate it in order to achieve an end goal. It's a challenge sure, but I'd like to see BioWare rise to that challenge and provide a bit of divergence rather than shy away from it.
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So would Bioware. However, there's a small problem called "time and resources" which are always limited. Those very things that resulted in generic DR, cut Morrigan dialogues and scenes (most of which you restored in your MRP patch, for which we'll always be gratefull) and finally the never made scene with Alistair and Morrigan in Redcliffe, which Aimo made into a comic. If you asked Gaider he'd want all of that to be included in DA:O. Sadly, time and money didn't allow it.
Neither Bioware nor Gaider ever said they don't want to use the Warden again. He even said that nothing has been decided yet and Warden's return could still be an option. It all comes down to whether or not they'll be able to pull it off in a way that doesn't retcon anything and is technicaly possible (not ot mention finacially reasonable).
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
This way, the new player can also influence Morrigan to a degree, either by reinforcing what the Warden taught her or trying to change it a bit (entirely under player's control, giving new players a chance to have an impact rather than just sit and watch).
Ultimately, based on your choices and influence with Morri, you'd reach the end where Morrigan gets 2 different endings: "good" and "bad" or "she lives" and "she's dead".
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This all assumes that Morrigan will be a party member again and aren't you just undermining the player's choices in DA:O by allowing such a redefinition of Morrigan's character at such a late stage? If we're going with a new PC I'd say new players should have to play through the original titles if they want to make an impact myself.
While a "new PC" might know of the significance of Morrigan, would they ever be privy to more personal information such as her lover, her feelings regarding the DR, her ultimate plan, why the warden isn't present now after walking through the mirror? If she doesn't feel she can share some of this with someone she's close to in Origins/WH, how do they approach it without things seeming somewhat contrived to "fit" the new PC? I do have faith in the writers to craft a decent story but I wonder if they sometimes lose the perspective of the player when crafting larger scale stories, and thus end up having to create annexed DLCs to remedy some of the perceived shortcomings of the core plot.
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It can easily work even if she isn't a party member as long as the player has regualr interaction with her (something akin to Aribeth in original NWN campaign).
Think of Witch Hunt. Regardless whether you played as DA:O Warden or Orlesian Warden you mostly had the same overall interactions throughout the game. It was at the end where importing the DA:O Warden made the difference. Only he could get the OGB reference. Only he could get the kiss and journey through the mirror option.
My idea follows the same principal. The "best" ending will only be available if you romanced her in DA:O. If you're a new player you can only influence her outlook to a point (best you get is friendship and parting on good terms). Also, the new player doesn't have the whole OGB angle either.
The idea is to have the same variety as Alistair had in DA:O, where some things can only be achieved under certain circumstances (for Ali it was HNF).
Think of it more as additional flavour.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
... "good" ending would wary depending on your choices in DA:O and DA3, similar to how "Alistair is king" ending did. If you romanced her she gains power/freedom and reunites with her lover.
If you were her friend, she does the same but pursues her own life, forever remembering the leassons taught to her by the Warden and the new PC. If you treated her badly in Origins, but made sure she survived in DA3, she would become a powerfull sorceress but retain her personality from the beginning of Origins. She'd hold the rest of mankind in contempt, live in seclusion and consider emotion to be a weakness due to being betrayed by the Warden in Witch Hunt and never having a true friend.
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Right, you've identified the real problem, which is how Morrigan's story will end and how that relates to decisions and the warden PC in Origins. However, your example of say reuniting with her lover - why then was the groundwork for such an ending not in place in the original game - like I posed to Giggles above, for a romanced Morrigan, you could of had a unique scene, perhaps tying it back in with the ring or something in DA3 since Morrigan feels that whatever is coming is of such magnitude that she has to leave. What we got however in the DR was the one size fits all, which kicked off the whole problem. This was addressed in WH but in a manner which imo does imply something more to come.
BUT, the point it all comes down to is the ending, because that can tie back in with previous events, whether on or offscreen. I suspect we could debate this forever though.
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Because:
a) the writers are always focused on telling the best story now, rather than contemplating what they'll do 2-3 years later.
because DA was never planned as a trilogy like ME is. They're making things as they go and doing what seems best at the time rather than following a roadmap. If bringing the Warden back for more was planned, then it would be a done deal. Since it's not, it only remains a possibility, rather than being a certainty.
Retour en haut
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Make sure they don't forget that, yes, people haven't forgotten about the Warden/Morrigan/Old God baby storyline and thats a compliment to their work really. ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
