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[Master Shiori]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

And Blizzard could take as many pointers from Bioware, particularly when it comes to story driven narrative and dialogue.

Don't get me wrong, Blizzard creates fantastic worlds and characters, but writing has always been their biggest weakness.

I'd have to disagree a bit with you on that.  I think Blizzard's stories are very well done.  Kerrigan's betrayal from Star Craft comes to mind, as does the enitre plot from Diablo II.  Dragon Age, while very much story driven, is cluttered with plot holes and inconsistencies that drive me bonkers. (ie. Wynne tells you flat out that Grey Wardens can't hold a title, but no one seems to mention this when Alistair is made king...)  And don't even get me started on how much Bioware missed out on a golden opportunity to expand on the character relationships with the PC, especially Morrigan's.  There could (should) have been much more.

My point, though, is that Blizzard takes their sweet time in releasing sequels (sometimes frustratingly so).  But in the end you know you'll have a quality product.  That's exactly why I'm avoiding DA2.  As I've said before, I don't feel like getting burned again.  The ending to DA:O still pisses me off even a year later.
I'm not saying Morrigan should have stayed; I understand why she left.  It's *how* they did it that sucks balls.

But that's just me.  I know a lot of others feel differently, and that's cool.

Blizzard's stories are simple. The latest craze being "Ancient enemies uniting to fight a bigger threat they weren't originaly aware of and then snach victory at he last moment". They did it in Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos and now they're doing it again in Starcraft 2.
The cinematic showing the betrayal of Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 was great, and probably the only truly emotional scene I've seen from Blizzard to date (together with the final ending cinematic). Her original betrayal in Starcraft 1 failed to stir any emotions in me at all. Starcraft in general is more about the lols then serious emotional engagement, though Blizz appears to be working hard to change that in the sequal, if Wings of Liberty are any indication.

Diablo 2 flat out fails to bring any great character moments. It's great looking cinematics followed by brainless combat, then rinse and repeat. No character development, no proper interaction, and a story that's hardly engaging or special. DA:O had a dozen moments that really stick out and draw you in.

To be fair, Blizzard never claimed it was into story driven rpgs and most of it's games are rts, hardly a medium for great storytelling. They can craft a good story and tell it in a simple form, without adding complexity, but they never reached the same level and depth of storytelling that Bioware excels at. Doesn't mean their stories aren't engaging or that I don't enjoy playing their games.

[LTS_Guitarian]

Master Shiori wrote...


Blizzard's stories are simple. The latest craze being "Ancient enemies uniting to fight a bigger threat they weren't originaly aware of and then snach victory at he last moment". They did it in Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos and now they're doing it again in Starcraft 2.
The cinematic showing the betrayal of Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 was great, and probably the only truly emotional scene I've seen from Blizzard to date (together with the final ending cinematic). Her original betrayal in Starcraft 1 failed to stir any emotions in me at all. Starcraft in general is more about the lols then serious emotional engagement, though Blizz appears to be working hard to change that in the sequal, if Wings of Liberty are any indication.

Diablo 2 flat out fails to bring any great character moments. It's great looking cinematics followed by brainless combat, then rinse and repeat. No character development, no proper interaction, and a story that's hardly engaging or special. DA:O had a dozen moments that really stick out and draw you in.

To be fair, Blizzard never claimed it was into story driven rpgs and most of it's games are rts, hardly a medium for great storytelling. They can craft a good story and tell it in a simple form, without adding complexity, but they never reached the same level and depth of storytelling that Bioware excels at. Doesn't mean their stories aren't engaging or that I don't enjoy playing their games.

I wouldn't say it's something Bioware excels at.  Honestly, if it wasn't for Morrigan I probably would have relegated DA:O to an average RPG, not even close to the likes of the standards of the genre such as Morrowind (my all time fav) and Oblivion.  She was why I played the game.  Period.  That might sound lame, but it's true.  The rest of the story, no matter how deep, was at times, nonsensical at best. 

I tried playing Mass Effect and it just bored me to tears.  I couldn't even get halfway through.  Others loved it.  I didn't.  I kept finding myself saying to the screen "Shut up and do something already!" In other words, dialogue overload.

Again, the point I was trying to make was about the overall quality of the final product.  That's all.  Anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

[ejoslin]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

I wouldn't say it's something Bioware excels at.  Honestly, if it wasn't for Morrigan I probably would have relegated DA:O to an average RPG, not even close to the likes of the standards of the genre such as Morrowind (my all time fav) and Oblivion.  She was why I played the game.  Period.  That might sound lame, but it's true.  The rest of the story, no matter how deep, was at times, nonsensical at best. 

I tried playing Mass Effect and it just bored me to tears.  I couldn't even get halfway through.  Others loved it.  I didn't.  I kept finding myself saying to the screen "Shut up and do something already!" In other words, dialogue overload.

Again, the point I was trying to make was about the overall quality of the final product.  That's all.  Anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

It doesn't sound lame that you played and replayed the game for Morrigan -- I did the same because of Zevran.  However, Morrigan's romance IS a story in the game -- one of a few.

The overall story of DAO is nothing that interesting -- unite the land, save the world.  But the smaller stories within that frame are what makes it fabulous.  The romances are amazing love stories that draw you in, as are the friendships.  I found Alistair's story, the way it was presented, extremely compelling (I was shocked when he revealed who he was).

[Esbatty]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


Blizzard's stories are simple. The latest craze being "Ancient enemies uniting to fight a bigger threat they weren't originaly aware of and then snach victory at he last moment". They did it in Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos and now they're doing it again in Starcraft 2.
The cinematic showing the betrayal of Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 was great, and probably the only truly emotional scene I've seen from Blizzard to date (together with the final ending cinematic). Her original betrayal in Starcraft 1 failed to stir any emotions in me at all. Starcraft in general is more about the lols then serious emotional engagement, though Blizz appears to be working hard to change that in the sequal, if Wings of Liberty are any indication.

Diablo 2 flat out fails to bring any great character moments. It's great looking cinematics followed by brainless combat, then rinse and repeat. No character development, no proper interaction, and a story that's hardly engaging or special. DA:O had a dozen moments that really stick out and draw you in.

To be fair, Blizzard never claimed it was into story driven rpgs and most of it's games are rts, hardly a medium for great storytelling. They can craft a good story and tell it in a simple form, without adding complexity, but they never reached the same level and depth of storytelling that Bioware excels at. Doesn't mean their stories aren't engaging or that I don't enjoy playing their games.

I wouldn't say it's something Bioware excels at.  Honestly, if it wasn't for Morrigan I probably would have relegated DA:O to an average RPG, not even close to the likes of the standards of the genre such as Morrowind (my all time fav) and Oblivion.  She was why I played the game.  Period.  That might sound lame, but it's true.  The rest of the story, no matter how deep, was at times, nonsensical at best. 

I tried playing Mass Effect and it just bored me to tears.  I couldn't even get halfway through.  Others loved it.  I didn't.  I kept finding myself saying to the screen "Shut up and do something already!" In other words, dialogue overload.

Again, the point I was trying to make was about the overall quality of the final product.  That's all.  Anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

I have the urge to Murder everyone I talk to in Oblivion. In Fallout 3,  it was good times and my first time with a Betheseda rpg. Oblivion just scares me - no pew-pew laser guns or hilarious alternate universe future to keep me entertained. That and it just felt like Fallout 3 in King Arthur's Court. But D&D just never did it for me to begin with (I was more a White Wolf fan).

Anywho, as for Mass Effect 1 - it was AWESOME warts and all. Then I played ME2 and trying to play ME1 now is like a f**kin' chore when I gleefully did it like 6 times while waiting for ME2 to show up in the mail so I could see how all my choices turned out. But yes ME1 is very talky-talky but its like a really damn good novel (hell alot of Bioware games are like reading a damn good book or book series). But if ME 1 wasn't your cup of tea try ME2 - its sexy good times.

[LTS_Guitarian]

ejoslin wrote...

It doesn't sound lame that you played and replayed the game for Morrigan -- I did the same because of Zevran.  However, Morrigan's romance IS a story in the game -- one of a few.

The overall story of DAO is nothing that interesting -- unite the land, save the world.  But the smaller stories within that frame are what makes it fabulous.  The romances are amazing love stories that draw you in, as are the friendships.  I found Alistair's story, the way it was presented, extremely compelling (I was shocked when he revealed who he was).

I'm a 40 year old man.  My kids are older than a lot of you.  Believe me, it's lame.  I am way too old for that kind of stuff.  *shrug*

And I do agree it's the smaller stories that make the game and give it layers (like an oinion?) but that is where most of the flaws lie, unfortunately.

Take Wynne, for example.  She's another character I really liked, but the story of the "entity" keeping her alive is muddled.  At one point she collapses and you're told her time may be up at any moment, but after you talk with her about it it's never mentioned again.  I can't empathize with her because I don't ever feel like she's really threatened.

Even with Morrigan there are problems.  For instance, the Dark Ritual, the entire point of the game, is supposed to take place "on the eve of battle."  Yet we're told that Denerim is well more than two days march from Redcliffe.  But once in Denerim you have to option to ask her about "last night".  Were they magically transported there?  If so, were is it mentioned?

Modifié par LTS_Guitarian, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[Master Shiori]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


Blizzard's stories are simple. The latest craze being "Ancient enemies uniting to fight a bigger threat they weren't originaly aware of and then snach victory at he last moment". They did it in Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos and now they're doing it again in Starcraft 2.
The cinematic showing the betrayal of Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 was great, and probably the only truly emotional scene I've seen from Blizzard to date (together with the final ending cinematic). Her original betrayal in Starcraft 1 failed to stir any emotions in me at all. Starcraft in general is more about the lols then serious emotional engagement, though Blizz appears to be working hard to change that in the sequal, if Wings of Liberty are any indication.

Diablo 2 flat out fails to bring any great character moments. It's great looking cinematics followed by brainless combat, then rinse and repeat. No character development, no proper interaction, and a story that's hardly engaging or special. DA:O had a dozen moments that really stick out and draw you in.

To be fair, Blizzard never claimed it was into story driven rpgs and most of it's games are rts, hardly a medium for great storytelling. They can craft a good story and tell it in a simple form, without adding complexity, but they never reached the same level and depth of storytelling that Bioware excels at. Doesn't mean their stories aren't engaging or that I don't enjoy playing their games.

I wouldn't say it's something Bioware excels at.  Honestly, if it wasn't for Morrigan I probably would have relegated DA:O to an average RPG, not even close to the likes of the standards of the genre such as Morrowind (my all time fav) and Oblivion.  She was why I played the game.  Period.  That might sound lame, but it's true.  The rest of the story, no matter how deep, was at times, nonsensical at best. 

I tried playing Mass Effect and it just bored me to tears.  I couldn't even get halfway through.  Others loved it.  I didn't.  I kept finding myself saying to the screen "Shut up and do something already!" In other words, dialogue overload.

Again, the point I was trying to make was about the overall quality of the final product.  That's all.  Anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because obviously my idea of what great storytelling is differs greatly from yours.

I to found Morrigan to be great part of what made DA:O so special for me, but she wasn't the only one. All the characters were compelling in their own way and the story, while certainly nothing we haven't seen before, was delivered in a way that made it very emotionaly engaging.

Then again, I practicaly grew up on Bioware rpgs and their way of making games is what fits me best.

[ejoslin]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It doesn't sound lame that you played and replayed the game for Morrigan -- I did the same because of Zevran.  However, Morrigan's romance IS a story in the game -- one of a few.

The overall story of DAO is nothing that interesting -- unite the land, save the world.  But the smaller stories within that frame are what makes it fabulous.  The romances are amazing love stories that draw you in, as are the friendships.  I found Alistair's story, the way it was presented, extremely compelling (I was shocked when he revealed who he was).

I'm a 40 year old man.  My kids are older than a lot of you.  Believe me, it's lame.  I am way too old for that kind of stuff.  *shrug*

And I do agree it's the smaller stories that make the game and give it layers (like an oinion?) but that is where most of the flaws lie, unfortunately.

Take Wynne, for example.  She's another character I really liked, but the story of the "entity" keeping her alive is muddled.  At one point she collapses and you're told her time may be up at any moment, but after you talk with her about it it's never mentioned again.  I can't empathize with her because I don't ever feel like she's really threatened.

Even with Morrigan there are problems.  For instance, the Dark Ritual, the entire point of the game, is supposed to take place "on the eve of battle."  Yet we're told that Denerim is well more than two days march from Redcliffe.  But once in Denerim you have to option to ask her about "last night".  Were they magically transported there?  If so, were is it mentioned?

I'm a 42 year old married women with kids - there are actually a lot of people here in their 30s and 40s.  Age has nothing to do with enjoying a story.  Since you're close to my age, you're (like I am) of the first generation that grew up on video games.  No reason why you have to quit enjoying them after a certain age.

Wynne...  I don't like her.  At all.  that aside... I think when she collapses in battle, it's supposed to happen soon after she's recruited -- which is soon after she died, but then you see her learn to harness the energy of the spirit and such.  It's discussed a bit, not a whole lot. 

With Morrigan, yes, that's an inconsistency -- they ran out of money.  Originally there was supposed to be a scene in a tent on the eve of battle, but it was cut, and those lines were overlooked.  There are a few places in the toolset where it's actually noted that dialog was supposed to be moved, but they ran out of money.

I could go on about the bugs and the problems, and there are many of them, but I still do appreciate the beauty of the stories that are in there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[Master Shiori]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Even with Morrigan there are problems.  For instance, the Dark Ritual, the entire point of the game, is supposed to take place "on the eve of battle."  Yet we're told that Denerim is well more than two days march from Redcliffe.  But once in Denerim you have to option to ask her about "last night".  Were they magically transported there?  If so, were is it mentioned?

DR was originaly supposed to take place in the Warden's tent on the eve of the final battle, but due to lack of time and resources, the whole thing got moved to Redcliffe. There was also supposed to be a scene of Morrigan talking to Alistair and asking his advice before proposing the DR to the Warden (Aimo and David Gaider made a comic about it), as well as different versions of DR depending on your relationship with Morrigan.

Sadly, that all got cut and we ended up with "one size fits all" DR, which is the reason for weirddialogue you experienced.

[LTS_Guitarian]

Master Shiori wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree, because obviously my idea of what great storytelling is differs greatly from yours.

I to found Morrigan to be great part of what made DA:O so special for me, but she wasn't the only one. All the characters were compelling in their own way and the story, while certainly nothing we haven't seen before, was delivered in a way that made it very emotionaly engaging.

Then again, I practicaly grew up on Bioware rpgs and their way of making games is what fits me best.

Don't get me wrong, DA:O was an excellent game.  Simply marvelous.  I loved it ( I must since I'm here posting about it and have written 2 novels and several smaller stories in the past year).  But it's nowhere near perfect and could've been done a little better.  I don't blame Bioware as much as EA, I guess.  I know there are deadlines to meet and whatnot. I actually agree with you quite a bit on a lot of things.  

[ximena]

Does anyone have screenies of that first meeting with Morrigan in the wilds?

[LTS_Guitarian]

Master Shiori wrote...

DR was originaly supposed to take place in the Warden's tent on the eve of the final battle, but due to lack of time and resources, the whole thing got moved to Redcliffe. There was also supposed to be a scene of Morrigan talking to Alistair and asking his advice before proposing the DR to the Warden (Aimo and David Gaider made a comic about it), as well as different versions of DR depending on your relationship with Morrigan.

Sadly, that all got cut and we ended up with "one size fits all" DR, which is the reason for weirddialogue you experienced.

I've actually read that short comic when it first came out.  Her with a big WEAKNESS bubble over her head in the last panel was really cool, I thought.

But that was kind of my entire point.  They should have left a lot of that stuff in.  The Morrigan mod gives back some, but not enough.  I'm greedy!  I want more Morrigan!

[LTS_Guitarian]

ximena wrote...

Does anyone have screenies of that first meeting with Morrigan in the wilds?

Sorry, ximena, I played it on PS3.  I can't even get any screencaps for myself

[ximena]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

ximena wrote...

Does anyone have screenies of that first meeting with Morrigan in the wilds?

Sorry, ximena, I played it on PS3.  I can't even get any screencaps for myself

Actually, nevermind. Hahaha. Thanks. XD My mind changes quickly and I found another way with whatever I'm doing.

[LTS_Guitarian]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm a 42 year old married women with kids - there are actually a lot of people here in their 30s and 40s.  Age has nothing to do with enjoying a story.  Since you're close to my age, you're (like I am) of the first generation that grew up on video games.  No reason why you have to quit enjoying them after a certain age.

Oh, I'll probably never stop playing video games completely.  But it does make me feel kind of foolish for getting so wrapped up in something that isn't even real.  What would the witch say about it?  "'Tis a fool's folly.   Your time would be much better served elsewhere." Or something like that.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...
Blizzard's stories are simple. The latest craze being "Ancient enemies uniting to fight a bigger threat they weren't originaly aware of and then snach victory at he last moment". They did it in Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos and now they're doing it again in Starcraft 2.

Well, the same could be said of the plots of many BioWare games too, in so far as being slightly derivative. As for Blizzard, at least in SC2, its the writing/dialogue thats painfully derivative and bad. If you find the leaked Heart of the Swarm ending, the actual dialogue and the way they go about things is just cliche and painful, dialogue wise. Its got a couple neat moments like Wings of Liberty's ending but feels a bit cliche.

LTS_Guitarian wrote...
I tried playing Mass  Effect and it just bored me to tears.  I couldn't even get halfway  through.  Others loved it.  I didn't.  I kept finding myself saying to  the screen "Shut up and do something already!" In other words, dialogue  overload.

I think thats more to do with the voiced PC in ME's case. I'd agree though- everytime I'd talk to someone in ME1 it was like you weren't talking to a person but a walking codex entry. ANd then having to sit through Shepard regurgitate what you just selected anyway is just an annoyance of the voiced PC for me.

ejoslin wrote..

The overall story of DAO is nothing  that interesting -- unite the land, save the world.  But the smaller  stories within that frame are what makes it fabulous.  The romances are  amazing love stories that draw you in, as are the friendships.  I found  Alistair's story, the way it was presented, extremely compelling (I was  shocked when he revealed who he was).

Yeah, those smaller stories are why I love DAO. The reason I was on the edge of my seat when first playing through Origins wasn't the whole Blight plot- it was wondering what the hell Morrigan was up to. They all have their glitches and bugs but its generally the characters that kept me interested in DA and through the characters by which I cared at all about the world and lore.

ximena wrote...
Actually, nevermind. Hahaha. Thanks. XD My mind changes quickly and I found another way with whatever I'm doing.

Ha ha! Nevermind? An excuse to post Double Morrigan action? BAH! :happy:

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 décembre 2010 - 08:04 .

[Giggles_Manically]

When you said: DOUBLE MORRIGAN action Brock I thought it would involve tent time.



Then I realized if that were posted the universe would implode.

[Wulfram]

The fade is a strange place

[LTS_Guitarian]

Brockololly wrote...

Ha ha! Nevermind? An excuse to post Double Morrigan action? BAH! 

That would have made for one helluva Double Mint commercial....
But I dunno if I could handle two Morrigans.  

Modifié par LTS_Guitarian, 10 décembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

The fade is a strange place

The Sloth demon is that bad at creating illusions, eh?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 décembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[naledgeborn]

ejoslin wrote...

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

I wouldn't say it's something Bioware excels at.  Honestly, if it wasn't for Morrigan I probably would have relegated DA:O to an average RPG, not even close to the likes of the standards of the genre such as Morrowind (my all time fav) and Oblivion.  She was why I played the game.  Period.  That might sound lame, but it's true.  The rest of the story, no matter how deep, was at times, nonsensical at best. 

I tried playing Mass Effect and it just bored me to tears.  I couldn't even get halfway through.  Others loved it.  I didn't.  I kept finding myself saying to the screen "Shut up and do something already!" In other words, dialogue overload.

Again, the point I was trying to make was about the overall quality of the final product.  That's all.  Anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

It doesn't sound lame that you played and replayed the game for Morrigan -- I did the same because of Zevran.  However, Morrigan's romance IS a story in the game -- one of a few.

The overall story of DAO is nothing that interesting -- unite the land, save the world.  But the smaller stories within that frame are what makes it fabulous.  The romances are amazing love stories that draw you in, as are the friendships.  I found Alistair's story, the way it was presented, extremely compelling (I was shocked when he revealed who he was).

What she said. Morrigan's story will take place (hopefully) throughout the series as a whole. Morrigan vs Flemeth is the star of the series. The stars of DAO were "Defeat the Blight"; Alistair vs Loghain. Which weren't half bad. But not as good as Morrigan's story. Claudia Black and David Gaider helped.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 10 décembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[naledgeborn]

@ Brock, did you post a pic of Morrigan Cousland slaying Archie?

[Brockololly]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

That would have made for one helluva Double Mint commercial....
But I dunno if I could handle two Morrigans.  

Hahaha- now I have the stupid image in my head of Morrigan twins in a Double Mint commercial doing cliche "twin" activities like riding a tandem bicycle and making a hackneyed smile to the camera as they chew their double mint gum.

naledgeborn wrote...

@ Brock, did you post a pic of Morrigan Cousland slaying Archie?

Ha- no, I haven't done much with Morrigan Cousland past Ostagar yet. I've gotten side tracked with my Amell.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 décembre 2010 - 09:42 .

[naledgeborn]

Brockololly wrote...

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

That would have made for one helluva Double Mint commercial....
But I dunno if I could handle two Morrigans.  

Hahaha- now I have the stupid image in my head of Morrigan twins in a Double Mint commercial doing cliche "twin" activities like riding a tandem bicycle and making a hackneyed smile to the camera as they chew their double mint gum.

naledgeborn wrote...

@ Brock, did you post a pic of Morrigan Cousland slaying Archie?

Ha- no, I haven't done much with Morrigan Cousland past Ostagar yet. I've gotten side tracked with my Amell.

Or raining fireballs on Alistair twins.....

[blademaster7]

Brockololly wrote...

Can you replace Alistair/Jory/Daveth with Morrigan models? That would be epic. XD

[Barbarossa2010]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

...  But in the end you know you'll have a quality product.  That's exactly why I'm avoiding DA2.  As I've said before, I don't feel like getting burned again.  The ending to DA:O still pisses me off even a year later.
I'm not saying Morrigan should have stayed; I understand why she left.  It's *how* they did it that sucks balls.

But that's just me.  I know a lot of others feel differently, and that's cool.

I certainly didn't feel any different than you.  I (and more than one or two others) felt exactly as you.  I was openly very critical of Gaider and crew as far back as Nov 09 with many a long and flaming post directed at the inappropriateness of the DR in the interactive story telling medium of a video game.  While the conditions of Morrigan leaving were somewhat understandable, how the whole thing was handled right at the end (especially if you reject her for good role-playing reasons) on the "eve" of the climactic event, was pure bulls#!+.  I don't have the time to invest in an absorbing interactive video game and end them with a kick in the nads.

Now Gaider and Co may have succeeded in keeping interest in play with the DR for a sequel, that unfortunately sputtered out rather dramatically with this ridiculous notion of Hawke for a follow-on (who the hell won out and thought that was a good idea and that Thedas was a superior main character to the Warden and his companions?); so we get Witch hunt as a sort of consolation or booby prize.  Things like the DR will certainly not be so well tolerated in the future now that we know the poor or (at best) mediocre revolving door (developer consequence avoidance) vision going forward for this franchise.

Origins was a fabulous game, made better by the companion interaction, and was a perfect tee-up for a sequential continuation.  Well that was flushed by the EA bad idea fairy and the bean counting pinhead who thought up and sold the idea of Hawke. All I can say is that at least Origins introduced me to the RPG and I would eventually find my way to the Fallout universe and New Vegas.

Regards to all!