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[Terra_Ex]

Brockololly wrote...

Not to further derail the thread, but new demo info here.

Morrigan would chuckle merrily at this demo debacle.

That link leads to the facepalm boards so I won't click it for now. I assume said news continues to underwhelm? I fear the number of pre-order items will soon surpass the total number of items available in the entirety of DA2.

Grendenhal wrote...



Well here's a fine kettle of fish. 
Ran pellmell into the Silverite mine equipment bug.  Tried the zz-fab
cheat -- recovered all of my equipment that way -- except Guess Whose
Ring????



Not going on without the ring.  Thanks again to Terra-Ex for the mod -- i'll go back and replay the mine.

I've had a small number of people saying they *sometimes* still lose
bits of equipment with the fix, so take care even with it installed.
I'll take another look at the blasted thing sometime in the future and
fix it a different (more complicated) way... or maybe I'll just force the game to strip all equipment before the bug hits.

[Swoo]

Brockololly wrote...

Not to further derail the thread, but new demo info here.

Morrigan would chuckle merrily at this demo debacle.

Wow, they manage to cluster even a demo release. That's....actually fantastic. Fail gloriously!

[Riloux]

I love everything about Morrigan. Her personality, demeanor, philosophy. I really want to see what she's cooking up.

[TheBlackBaron]

Brockololly wrote...

Not to further derail the thread, but new demo info here.

Morrigan would chuckle merrily at this demo debacle.

There is not enough disapproval and accusations of foolishness in the world to adequately describe this cluster-frack. 

[LTS_Guitarian]

Yes, but aren't we all just so excited about it?



The books didn't end well, Origins doesn't end well. I can't see where that's going the change.



But somehow it'll still be our fault for not liking it.

[Morrigans God son]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Yes, but aren't we all just so excited about it?

The books didn't end well, Origins doesn't end well. I can't see where that's going the change.

But somehow it'll still be our fault for not liking it.

true

[Grendenhal]

So I was reading back earlier on this board and saw a lot of bitterness at how the ritual was handled,  The sense was that Morrigan the trusted lover suddenly becomes an unscrupulous mercenary who's been using the Warden all along, and those Wardens who romanced her had been duped and would have better off with the comparatively uncomplicated and loyal Leliana.  I have to confess I never saw it like that.  Part of it is the truly revelatory performance by Claudia Black, who manages at every turn to convey at once Morrigan's single-mindedly ruthless pursuit of her goals, her cynical "love is for the birds" philosophy in which she only half believes, and yet her own genuine love for the Warden, her own heartbreak at having to leave him, and her sorrow for his.  There is certainly enough to suggest that she is being driven by forces far greater and more important than her or the Warden's personal happinesses, and  that the plan she is carrying out cannot be otherwise than it is.  You see her struggling as she tells the Warden more than she probably should.  As she says in the intro to Witches Hunt (if she was in love with him):  "Harder words I have never spoken."  She had previously tried at least twice, and I believe sincerely, to break off the romance at considerable cost to herself solely to spare him from the pain she knew was coming.  In that way, I find her to be the most selfless character in the game.  This was novelistic writing at its best, folks. 

My criticism, for which Bioware cannot be forgiven, is that one cannot create such an epic, mesmerizing character and then just discard her in favor of the next new game out of the gates.  Novelists owe things to their characters, most particularly development and closure.  We got some development, but precious little closure.

[MKDAWUSS]

Grendenhal wrote...
My criticism, for which Bioware cannot be forgiven, is that one cannot create such an epic, mesmerizing character and then just discard her in favor of the next new game out of the gates.  Novelists owe things to their characters, most particularly development and closure.  We got some development, but precious little closure.

You're not alone in that criticism. Many here feel the same way. I think part of the problem is all the numerous legitmate choices we were given regarding the Morrigan storyline, the OGB being top of the list.

I say "legitimate choice" because it's the only series of choices that don't seem to somehow find their way to cancel out and head toward a canon-like point in the future.

[Zjarcal]

Ahem... here's some new fanart to cheer people up.







Morrigan's Accident by Aztarieth

[LTS_Guitarian]

The thing is is that Bioware is trying some massive plot that's supposed to encompass all Thedas and will somehow connect later on down the road. There are several problems with this approach. Firstly, having so many choices for a character's origin leaves too many possible ending scenarios for this tangled web to be taken seriously. The second means that, with the horrible ending, too many things are left up in the air and no closure is ever found.  
If Bioware had thought things through more they would have realized that if they wanted the overall theme of the games to be like this they should have taken more of an ME approach (ie, just one main character with several possible endings) either that, or they should have tied up all the loose ends between the myriad of characters before moving on. Unfortunately, they've done neither, and in the end all we're left with is a jumbled mess that can only get worse from here on out.

Modifié par LTS_Guitarian, 02 février 2011 - 10:08 .

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...
Wow, they manage to cluster even a demo release. That's....actually fantastic. Fail gloriously!

TheBlackBaron wrote..
There is not enough disapproval and accusations of foolishness in the world to adequately describe this cluster-frack.

Yep. Its mind numbing that they still have not commented on 2/1/2011 or the demo debacle or their arbitrary banning of people. I'll say no more on it.

Riloux wrote...
I love everything about Morrigan. Her personality, demeanor, philosophy. I really want to see what she's cooking up.

As do all of us. Question is, will the Warden be around to see what she's cooking up?

Grendenhal wrote..
My criticism, for which  Bioware cannot be forgiven, is that one cannot create such an epic,  mesmerizing character and then just discard her in favor of the next new game out of the gates.  Novelists owe things to their characters, most  particularly development and closure.  We got some development, but  precious little closure.

My problem with the DR scene is that they were going to have it play out differently for the Wardens that romanced Morrigan and instead what we got was a very vanilla, one sized fits all scene, with dialogue mostly uniform whether you abandoned Morrigan at Lothering or whether you kept her in your party the whole way and romanced her. In whats arguably the biggest moment in the game, the game lacks much in the way of meaningful reactivity to the player's choices.

Basically, the DR scene forced your Warden to just sit back and passively accept everything Morrigan was saying without calling her out on some of it, especially based on your relationship with her.  And then you had things like having Morrigan ominously standing back turned in front of the fire acting rather sinister, which makes zero sense if you've been close and have been romancing her. I believe Gaider even amde mention that if she was in love or friendly, the scene would have started with Morrigan sitting on the bed looking rather conflicted and emotionally distraught at what she was about to propose to the PC.

Reuniting with her in Witch Hunt helped a little bit to lessen the bad taste that left in the player's mouth, but for such an important scene in the game, I think the main complaint is that it plays out too similar regardless of how you treated Morrigan.



As for Morrigan going forward, yeah, I'd agree with what you said. The devs have said they're not done with Morrigan, but the devs say many things. She is a great character and how they deal with her and the Warden will really determine my continued interest in DA. Namely, they need to respect the choices the player has made regarding her and the Old God Baby and the DR and going through the Eluvian. They can't simply write off or hand wave those choices into obscurity. I don't mind if she isn't in DA2, but they need to finish and provide closure to her story (and the Warden's) sooner rather than later.

Zjarcal wrote...

Ahem... here's some new fanart to cheer people up.



Morrigan's Accident by Aztarieth

Hahaha that is awesome. Nice find Zjarcal!

Modifié par Brockololly, 02 février 2011 - 10:18 .

[Brockololly]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...
If Bioware had thought things through more they would have realized that if they wanted the overall theme of the games to be like this they should have taken more of an ME approach (ie, just one main character with several possible endings) either that, or they should have tied up all the loose ends between the myriad of characters before moving on. Unfortunately, they've done neither, and in the end all we're left with is a jumbled mess that can only get worse from here on out.

I still think that *maybe* come DA3, if they can bring things back together and maybe interconnect DAO and DA2, then it might work. I think the liklihood of something like that happening is small, but its my last hope for DA I think.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yeah it sad.

I am more excited to see updates to Minecraft then to see an update for DA2.

[LTS_Guitarian]

Brockololly wrote...

I still think that *maybe* come DA3, if they can bring things back together and maybe interconnect DAO and DA2, then it might work. I think the liklihood of something like that happening is small, but its my last hope for DA I think.

I wouldn't hold my breath.  Everytime someone even brings it up in any interviews with Gaider, he shoots them down.  Considering how all of his works end (apparently he gets off on horrible endings.  The Stolen Throne and Origins are prime examples), I just don't see where that changes.  A leopard doesn't change its spots.

I think you're only leading yourself on and in the end you're going to be very disappointed.  If they do connect things at some point, it won't be with any satisfaction.  Chances are, it will only make things worse.

With the stupid plot thay have going, the best thing would have been to wrap up each game completely and make each installment disconnected from the previous one.   

Modifié par LTS_Guitarian, 02 février 2011 - 10:35 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Grendenhal wrote...

So I was reading back earlier on this board and saw a lot of bitterness at how the ritual was handled,  The sense was that Morrigan the trusted lover suddenly becomes an unscrupulous mercenary who's been using the Warden all along, and those Wardens who romanced her had been duped and would have better off with the comparatively uncomplicated and loyal Leliana.  I have to confess I never saw it like that.  Part of it is the truly revelatory performance by Claudia Black, who manages at every turn to convey at once Morrigan's single-mindedly ruthless pursuit of her goals, her cynical "love is for the birds" philosophy in which she only half believes, and yet her own genuine love for the Warden, her own heartbreak at having to leave him, and her sorrow for his.  There is certainly enough to suggest that she is being driven by forces far greater and more important than her or the Warden's personal happinesses, and  that the plan she is carrying out cannot be otherwise than it is.  You see her struggling as she tells the Warden more than she probably should.  As she says in the intro to Witches Hunt (if she was in love with him):  "Harder words I have never spoken."  She had previously tried at least twice, and I believe sincerely, to break off the romance at considerable cost to herself solely to spare him from the pain she knew was coming.  In that way, I find her to be the most selfless character in the game.  This was novelistic writing at its best, folks. 

My criticism, for which Bioware cannot be forgiven, is that one cannot create such an epic, mesmerizing character and then just discard her in favor of the next new game out of the gates.  Novelists owe things to their characters, most particularly development and closure.  We got some development, but precious little closure.

Personally, I disagree with your first paragraph for reasons that have been hashed and rehashed over the lifetime of this thread, but I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph.  Attempting to jump around a story, like they seem so intent on doing, well I don't think it will work well in the gaming medium.

Had this franchise been centered on the player and not "Thedas," and the Warden had returned as he should have in DA2, with a continuation, as many seem to have expected, I might've agreed with you overall.

[Barbarossa2010]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I still think that *maybe* come DA3, if they can bring things back together and maybe interconnect DAO and DA2, then it might work. I think the liklihood of something like that happening is small, but its my last hope for DA I think.

I wouldn't hold my breath.  Everytime someone even brings it up in any interviews with Gaider, he shoots them down.  Considering how all of his works end (apparently he gets off on horrible endings.  The Stolen Throne and Origins are prime examples), I just don't see where that changes.  A leopard doesn't change its spots.

I think you're only leading yourself on and in the end you're going to be very disappointed.  If they do connect things at some point, it won't be with any satisfaction.  Chances are, it will only make things worse.

With the stupid plot thay have going, the best thing would have been to wrap up each game completely and make each installment disconnected from the previous one.   

Agree, and not holding my breath here.  They seem intent on burying the very notion of Origins, attempting to paint it as some sort of dated, forgettable experience.  It's a deliberate risk though: add enough teenage players to the base that don't really give a s#i+ about the story or the character interactions (outside of the occassional sex scene) and bolt on some rad/awesome action; to replace the number of players who walk away since they prefer a more sane, player-centered experience over the lifetime of the franchise.

I'm just amazed how "outdated" and "done" the Warden has become in a year.  I can't even stomach the DA2 boards anymore; and I can't help but chuckle to myself at the starry-eyed, drooling Hawke fanboys/girls, knowing full well that by mid-2011, Hawke will be discarded to the ash heap of forgettable characters wrought by this franchise. 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 03 février 2011 - 04:23 .

[LTS_Guitarian]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I'm just amazed how "outdated" and "done" the Warden has become in a year.  I can't even stomach the DA2 boards anymore; and I can't help but chuckle to myself at the starry-eyed, drooling Hawke fanboys/girls, knowing full well that by mid-2011, Hawke be next discarded to the ash heap of forgettable characters wrought by this franchise. 

As long as Bioware makes their money, they don't care.  And I really don't fault them for that part of it, since that's what their in business to do.  But they're sacrificing the long term for the short term.  In the end, there won't be any fans of the DA franchise, just fans of the individual games.

[bl00dsh0t]

Perhaps it has been wasting time on the da2 boards that has eventually just gotten me to give up, or the fact that I just can't bring myself to finish my last dao run but somehow I am warming up to some of the changes they are making. Lets face it the combat in origins is stale as hell, granted i have invested over 700hrs into the game so if it aint boring by now it would be a godlike game xD



Still I wonder just how we have been making the assumption that the depth of the characters will be significantly lower than in dao seeing as the number of them seems to have gone down from 10 to what seems to be only 6-7 and the rethinking of the approval system does promise some more interesting relationships between the protagonist and the characters... but then again it all comes down to the quantity and quality of the interactions and there is little to go by to establish what will be the case there until the game is out besides the shorter length and development time.



The great screwup they have pulled remains to be the disjoint from ferelden, the warden, morrigan and just about all of the characters of the first game and that does bring with it a high risk of DA2 being just another game to 95% with little or no connection to the story that roped in the more rabid fans that we on these forums represent. On that matter I do have to agree that the risk of a major disjoint in the franchise can keep it from giving that feeling of connectedness you get from picking up another half life or any other game with a protagonist and cast that gets added to every game and not just cleared out and restarted from scratch for every new title.



When the gameplay itself is what is supposed to be drawing you in I am generally averse to it unless it is a multiplayer game where the social interactions and "story" of a match comes from the players you play alongside or against. When playing a single player game I want to give a **** about the characters and the plot, dao did that and yet they for some pretty decent reasons chose to avoided doing dao2 since it just makes the amount of information from the permutations of the origins choices that need to be dealt with in one way or another too large, and make it borderline impossible to keep on playing the series unless you have finished and enjoyed part 1.



Then again they could have chosen a method like they did for the ps3 version of ME2 with the mayor choices done in a comic to bring players up to speed with what has happened. But would something like that even work on the massive number of choices in origins when compared to me1?



I just fear that we who grew a tad too atached to the origins characters are facing a future where the only way that makes sense to bring most of them back is a short cameo without ****ting on continuity heavily. Sure we morrigan fans are very likely to get to see her again in a major role, but as the warden is absurdly unlikely... Meh I'm not in a happy place today, pardon the rant xD

[LTS_Guitarian]

bl00dsh0t wrote...

Perhaps it has been wasting time on the da2 boards that has eventually just gotten me to give up, or the fact that I just can't bring myself to finish my last dao run but somehow I am warming up to some of the changes they are making. Lets face it the combat in origins is stale as hell, granted i have invested over 700hrs into the game so if it aint boring by now it would be a godlike game xD

Still I wonder just how we have been making the assumption that the depth of the characters will be significantly lower than in dao seeing as the number of them seems to have gone down from 10 to what seems to be only 6-7 and the rethinking of the approval system does promise some more interesting relationships between the protagonist and the characters... but then again it all comes down to the quantity and quality of the interactions and there is little to go by to establish what will be the case there until the game is out besides the shorter length and development time.

The great screwup they have pulled remains to be the disjoint from ferelden, the warden, morrigan and just about all of the characters of the first game and that does bring with it a high risk of DA2 being just another game to 95% with little or no connection to the story that roped in the more rabid fans that we on these forums represent. On that matter I do have to agree that the risk of a major disjoint in the franchise can keep it from giving that feeling of connectedness you get from picking up another half life or any other game with a protagonist and cast that gets added to every game and not just cleared out and restarted from scratch for every new title.

When the gameplay itself is what is supposed to be drawing you in I am generally averse to it unless it is a multiplayer game where the social interactions and "story" of a match comes from the players you play alongside or against. When playing a single player game I want to give a **** about the characters and the plot, dao did that and yet they for some pretty decent reasons chose to avoided doing dao2 since it just makes the amount of information from the permutations of the origins choices that need to be dealt with in one way or another too large, and make it borderline impossible to keep on playing the series unless you have finished and enjoyed part 1.

Then again they could have chosen a method like they did for the ps3 version of ME2 with the mayor choices done in a comic to bring players up to speed with what has happened. But would something like that even work on the massive number of choices in origins when compared to me1?

I just fear that we who grew a tad too atached to the origins characters are facing a future where the only way that makes sense to bring most of them back is a short cameo without ****ting on continuity heavily. Sure we morrigan fans are very likely to get to see her again in a major role, but as the warden is absurdly unlikely... Meh I'm not in a happy place today, pardon the rant xD

Some interesting points, for sure.  But I still can't see where any of this can end well.  First and foremost, Bioware has to care that the game ends well, and frankly, they just don't.  

Sure gameplay is great.  But the gameplay of Origins was the interactions between the PC and the other characters, not the combat sytem.  Sure, fighting scenes could be a bit of a mess.  But that wasn't the main part of the game.  And still those things that were wrong could have easily been fixed (like some better in-battle commands for your party rather than just everyone either stay or fight.)  The point is still that Bioware is trying to do entirely too much with too little.  If the human noble/Morrigan aspect was supposed to be the main sticking point to the game, then that's what they should have gone with.  Sure the other character origins are nice, but they just end up muddying and already over-complicated ending. 

It reminds me a lot of the Matrix movies.  The first one was great. But after that...WTF?

[JamanMosil]

Well...just finished the game for the first time the other night(a bit late to the party, I know..) and I just had to come in here and state that Morrigan is awesome. 'nuff said? I played as a DC, romanced Morrigan all the way through...and it was pretty much amazing. She is by far my fav character in the game...as soon as I finished the game I started Witch Hunt and have now finished that too...and again, an amazing ending to our relationship(Even though now I am quite upset that I can't continue on with Morrigan in DA2...) In DAO, me and Morrigan made our baby and then she ran away...and I felt heartbroken. I felt used by her a bit yes...but I could feel her pain for leaving me and I couldn't help but love her more. Even our goodbye at the gates of Denerim...amazing. And we walked through the mirror in WH, of course. I just had to post here to share that though...she has her detracting qualities, who amongst us doesn't? She's very naive in the ways of the world and incredibly vulnerable(despite hiding it pretty well) and socially inept. But despite all that, I still fell for her. Oops. Anyways, mad props to the Bioware writers for making a character like her. I'm going to feel a little weird on my next playthrough not having her as my best friend...

[Grendenhal]

bl00dsh0t wrote...

When playing a single player game I want to give a **** about the characters and the plot, dao did that and yet they for some pretty decent reasons chose to avoided doing dao2 since it just makes the amount of information from the permutations of the origins choices that need to be dealt with in one way or another too large, and make it borderline impossible to keep on playing the series unless you have finished and enjoyed part 1.

I see this thought a lot:  that the number of possible choices in DAO makes designing a continuation of the story impossible, since you'd have to progam a complete sub-game for each of the possible permutations, and/or the game will be uninteresting or unintelligible to a new audience that hasn't lived through the choices made in DAO.  I can't understand why either is the case, though.  You bring in the same character set, with an addition or two, and the Warden's choices vis a vis those characters picks up where it left off.  So you're still romancing whomever and fighting with whomever, with some flexibility in making different choices in DA2.    Many choices (did you side with the werewolves, Branta, etc.?) can just be ignored.  Others can be fudged:  Flemeth can have been killed in any event, if not by you, then by someone else.  Regarding the only really seminal choice in DAO -- the ritual:  well, you either start off with Morrigan helping her accomplish her goals -- whatever they are -- or you start off with her in an alliance of convenenience, but may turn on her at the end, or you're both working against each other but trying to get to the same place at the end for a final conflict.  That allows the game to proceed essentially along a parallel linear path without two much wasted programming regardless of the player's choices.

A new Warden can easily enough start from scratch -- sequels are not exactly new to RPG gaming -- you just start with the gratuitous flashback cut scenes to bring the story up to date.  From there, the new Warden can choose any of the main paths to start out on.  He obviously has no preexisting relationship with Morrigan, but he can still choose to help her or oppose her.

In short, I don't see Bioware having worked itself into a logistical corner, the only way out of which was to break out of of the box and start over.  I think for philosophical reasons it just doesn't like sequels.

Of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about here -- I'm neither a programmer nor a game designer -- but it makes a certain amount of sense to me.

[Grendenhal]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Personally, I disagree with your first paragraph for reasons that have been hashed and rehashed over the lifetime of this thread, but I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph.  Attempting to jump around a story, like they seem so intent on doing, well I don't think it will work well in the gaming medium.

Had this franchise been centered on the player and not "Thedas," and the Warden had returned as he should have in DA2, with a continuation, as many seem to have expected, I might've agreed with you overall.

I think we're saying the same thing, which is that DAO was a great start, but nothing more.  Abandoning it unfinished is little worse than if Tolkein had dispensed with Frodo and Aragorn in Return of the King -- with possibly a slight acknowledgement that they were still over there trying to save the planet -- in favor of a really cool new story about how other heroes unknown to them battled to open trade routes to the east.  Okay, it's not that bad, since DAO is not quite LOTR, but it's still pretty bad.

[Grendenhal]

JamanMosil wrote...

Well...just finished the game for the first time the other night(a bit late to the party, I know..) and I just had to come in here and state that Morrigan is awesome. 'nuff said? I played as a DC, romanced Morrigan all the way through...and it was pretty much amazing. She is by far my fav character in the game...as soon as I finished the game I started Witch Hunt and have now finished that too...and again, an amazing ending to our relationship(Even though now I am quite upset that I can't continue on with Morrigan in DA2...) In DAO, me and Morrigan made our baby and then she ran away...and I felt heartbroken. I felt used by her a bit yes...but I could feel her pain for leaving me and I couldn't help but love her more. Even our goodbye at the gates of Denerim...amazing. And we walked through the mirror in WH, of course. I just had to post here to share that though...she has her detracting qualities, who amongst us doesn't? She's very naive in the ways of the world and incredibly vulnerable(despite hiding it pretty well) and socially inept. But despite all that, I still fell for her. Oops. Anyways, mad props to the Bioware writers for making a character like her. I'm going to feel a little weird on my next playthrough not having her as my best friend...

Everyone on this board feels your pain.  I know the line on Morrigan is that she's socially inept, but if she is, may I be granted a similar measure of ineptitude.  She reminds me of some worldly-wise sophisticated NYC types I know.  She's rarely caught off guard or out of place; she's always ready with a cynical quip; and she's in control of virtually every situation she's in.  I agree that someone who was raised by wolves should be socially inept, but she's somehow found a way to learn some pretty impressive social skills.

[JamanMosil]

True!! I also wish I could be as sharp as she...I guess I was mostly just thinking that she seems to have very little experience with how to relate to people and interact with people in a meaningful way. Which is part of the reason I found my romance with Morrigan so fulfilling, because I got to show her what a true relationship was like...and she slowly but surely got to see what love really is(as much as she tries to deny it!). So it just saddens me that the journey had to end.