16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

heh.



GAIDER VOICE: YOU MORRI-MANCERS ARE ALL MYOPIC!

[IndigoWolfe]

New question; what should Morrigan look like in Dragon Age's new art style?

[Brockololly]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

New question; what should Morrigan look like in Dragon Age's new art style?

The same as she did in Origins.

Next question.

Edit: Maybe give her some new clothes or whatever, but face wise? The same.

Modifié par Brockololly, 09 février 2011 - 11:30 .

[Swoo]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Swoo wrote...

I don't know about that, everything I've heard has said EA is very serious about trying to take a major chunk out of the RPG Market. I would think that as long as Bioware has the sales, EA will probably keep their hands off for the most part. They can't all be Blizzard and release when personally satisfied or cancel something 3/4 of the way through because it's only going to be 'good'.

I've been wrong about 'There's no Evil Empire!' before, though.

Uhmm....EA already bought Bioware....back in 2007 as a matter of fact.  The same time they bought Pandemic Studios...

Um, that has nothing to do with what I said?

I said that EA probably won't mess with the formula as long as Bioware has good sales. I have no clue where you got that I said EA hadn't bought Bioware.

Modifié par Swoo, 09 février 2011 - 11:44 .

[LTS_Guitarian]

Swoo wrote...

Swoo wrote...

I don't know about that, everything I've heard has said EA is very serious about trying to take a major chunk out of the RPG Market. I would think that as long as Bioware has the sales, EA will probably keep their hands off for the most part. They can't all be Blizzard and release when personally satisfied or cancel something 3/4 of the way through because it's only going to be 'good'.

I've been wrong about 'There's no Evil Empire!' before, though.

Um, that has nothing to do with what I said?

I said that EA probably won't mess with the formula as long as Bioware has good sales. I have no clue where you got that I said EA hadn't bought Bioware.

You said nothing about a formula.  You said hands off.  That can easily be construed as not buying, especially given the subject of my previous post.

[Brockololly]

Hmmm.. well, seeing as Aveline was just confirmed as not being a LI in DA2, I think that kills my interest in playing a male Hawke seeing as there don't seem to be any interesting LIs.

But I think I've figured out the way to enjoy DA2! I'll simply make a Morrigan doppelganger in the CC (that way I can see how closely she could look should she come back in DA3) and then just RP female mage Morrigan Hawke! Good times will be had by all!

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 février 2011 - 02:01 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Brockololly wrote...

Hmmm.. well, seeing as Aveline was just confirmed as not being a LI in DA2, I think that kills my interest in playing a male Hawke seeing as there don't seem to be any interesting LIs.

But I think I've figured out the way to enjoy DA2! I'll simply make a Morrigan doppelganger in the CC (that way I can see how closely she could look should she come back in DA3) and then just RP female mage Morrigan Hawke! Good times will be had by all!

C'mon Brock, there's always Isabela...you know the one who had implants somewhere in between Origins and DA2!

Eh, its pretty damn slim pickings, when comparing to Morrigan and Leliana in Origins.  Talk about taking a step backwards. 

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote..
C'mon Brock, there's always Isabela...you know the one who had implants somewhere in between Origins and DA2!

Eh, its pretty damn slim pickings, when comparing to Morrigan and Leliana in Origins.  Talk about taking a step backwards. 

haha- but you know what? If indeed Merrill (who I think was written by Mary Kirby) and Isabella (written by Sheryl Chee) are indeed the only female LI's for a male Hawke, that means no Gaider written romance! No getting GAIDER'D! Thats sort of too bad really though, as for much crap as Gaider gets, he does do decent work with the companions I think.

[LTS_Guitarian]

Brockololly wrote...

haha- but you know what? If indeed Merrill (who I think was written by Mary Kirby) and Isabella (written by Sheryl Chee) are indeed the only female LI's for a male Hawke, that means no Gaider written romance! No getting GAIDER'D! Thats sort of too bad really though, as for much crap as Gaider gets, he does do decent work with the companions I think.

Yeah, but I bet he thinks Romeo and Juliet  was a romantic comedy.  The "feel good" play of the year.  He's certainly got a flair for writing characters, but everything always ends badly.  That gets old after a while....like after the first time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
C'mon Brock, there's always Isabela...you know the one who had implants somewhere in between Origins and DA2!

Eh, its pretty damn slim pickings, when comparing to Morrigan and Leliana in Origins.  Talk about taking a step backwards. 

Yep, very true. I can almost see them making Meril like Leliana and Isabela like Morrigan (she too displayed relunctance I think). Hopefully they won't be cheap imitations. But all in all, I am not excited about any of them.

[MKDAWUSS]

Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote..
C'mon Brock, there's always Isabela...you know the one who had implants somewhere in between Origins and DA2!

Eh, its pretty damn slim pickings, when comparing to Morrigan and Leliana in Origins.  Talk about taking a step backwards. 

haha- but you know what? If indeed Merrill (who I think was written by Mary Kirby) and Isabella (written by Sheryl Chee) are indeed the only female LI's for a male Hawke, that means no Gaider written romance! No getting GAIDER'D! Thats sort of too bad really though, as for much crap as Gaider gets, he does do decent work with the companions I think.

Though it might have been priceless seeing all those DA2 Hawke cultists (or whatever you wanna' call 'em) get Gaider'd.

[ximena]

I think the Gaider-ing here is on Fenris. Hahahaha. (I have a feeling in my gut he's an LI. And the angst potential is just so strooong.)

Brockololly wrote...

Swoo wrote...
If you say a product is going to have something knowing full well it's not going to deliver, well, some people call that misleading, others fraud. I get your argument and understand that the actual writers might have had a 'WTF' moment, but in the end 'Wasn't me, it was them' doesn't really work for me when you are talking about a product for purchase.

I almost wonder if the marketing people even play the games sometimes. Its just like there is some fundamental disconnect at times.

@Swoo

I get you, Swoo. Money is involved here, and there are no room for excuses. That said... EA should get new people in their marketing department. Or fire the boss who keeps on approving bad marketing.

@Brock

I have a small feeling they're just thrown a list of the product benefits and oriented about. Haha.

Modifié par ximena, 10 février 2011 - 03:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

This picture is kinda of fitting for here.



I will leave you to interpert it though.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 10 février 2011 - 03:46 .

[Grendenhal]

Love this thread, but who has time to read everything closely?



But did I read correctly that Anders and Justice are coming back? Why? Why bring anyone from Awakenings back? It's like bringing back only least compelling character in DAO -- Ohgren -- in Awakenings.



What am I missing? It seems perverse for Bioware to bring back characters that hardly anyone cares about while ignoring the characters that are truly loved.



Also, let us be honest here. Does anyone really begrudge the $7 for Witch Hunt? That's the price of a meal at McDonalds. I truly, unabashedly have a huge crush on Morrigan and craved tons of hours in a rich sequel with her and the Warden in which the OGB plot is fully developed. If they had paid me to play WH, I would have been bitterly disappointed.

[MKDAWUSS]

Grendenhal wrote...

Love this thread, but who has time to read everything closely?

But did I read correctly that Anders and Justice are coming back? Why? Why bring anyone from Awakenings back? It's like bringing back only least compelling character in DAO -- Ohgren -- in Awakenings.

What am I missing? It seems perverse for Bioware to bring back characters that hardly anyone cares about while ignoring the characters that are truly loved.

While Anders still had some storyline left, I honestly thought Justice/Kristoff was done by the end of Awakening.

What gets me is that these are the same group of people who don't want to bring (insert character here) back because he or she might have died...

If Morrigan comes back, I imagine she'll get the same treatment any returning character has received, and we'll probably be reminded that "this isn't the same Morrigan from DAO or even WH." Which, OK, if the PC isn't the Warden, pending how she's developed, can be acceptable. And it might (*MIGHT*) be more plausible than the Justice-Anders merger.

[Brockololly]

MKDAWUSS wrote..

If Morrigan comes back, I imagine she'll get the same treatment any returning character has received, and we'll probably be reminded that "this isn't the same Morrigan from DAO or even WH." Which, OK, if the PC isn't the Warden, pending how she's developed, can be acceptable. And it might (*MIGHT*) be more plausible than the Justice-Anders merger.

As I've said before though, they certainly could "reintroduce" Morrigan that way in some future game, but I find that to be incredibly cheap and lazy way of forcing character development, more often than not. IMO, its a more interesting experience when you can see any change in character happen smoothly over time without some sort of cheap shock tactics type "Oh! Morrigan is BACK! But *gasp* its NOT the Morrigan you remember!" 

Just like so many possible tragic endings seem to write themselves with Morrigan, reintroducing her as some Gandalf the White /Uber God like/ Half Dragon/ Demon possessed/ Spirit Possessed/ Old God Possessed version of post Eluvian Morrigan would seem sort of predictable and quite frankly a cop out. To me, that just seems like such a cheap way of being able to bring back a character while simultaneously pretty much being able to ditch their background and essentially make them a new character.

We'll see how its done with Anders I guess.I just usually hate when they do stuff like this because instead of having the character progress forward from where you the player left off with them, you spend too much time thinking "Well, hold up how did X, Y or Z happen to you while I was away?" instead of just having them continue to develop in the present game.  Its like a cheap way to create extra backstory.

But especially if we're not the Warden whenever Morrigan returns, I'd expect BioWare to pull some such schenanigans with a reinvented Morrigan. Bleh.

[HighMoon]

I just had an idea... since the dark ritual is optional but many people still want the OGB to play a large role in future DA titles, maybe there is some way to compromise? For instance, he could be a companion in a future game and if you did the DR then he'll play an important role in the plot at some point (and maybe have some special powers and abilities) but if not then he'll just be a companion (a child whom Morrigan had with someone else?).



Or maybe it could be similar to the Bethany/Carver situation (only on a larger scale) were if you performed the DR then you have the OGB as a companion, but if you didn't then you still have a child of Morrigan's, except maybe this time it's a girl? That could be an interesting way of ensuring Morrigan has some plot importance no matter what you decided to do in DAO.



However, I do understand that there are some people who don't want anything to do with Morrigan/the DR forced on them so this might be a little awkward. Anyway, just a few thoughts and ramblings. I doubt Bioware would do something like this. There are just so many possible directions they could take this whole old god baby thing in, though... I hope Bioware does not disappoint.

[Terra_Ex]

Time to take a break from my Mount & Blade campaign since my castles keep getting taken. Since we're in pessimism mode (courtesy of Brock [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]), I shall add my thoughts. My apologies to those who dislike lengthy posts.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sleeping.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Its a steaming load of BS either way. They sure as hell didn't reveal a single one of Morrigan's secrets, answer any questions or reveal her fate, like the trailer hinted at:

BioWare's marketing is terrible on a good day, blatantly dishonest and terrible on a bad day. I'm sorry but there is no other way to put it.
[/quote]
Yeah, I think we've established by this point the marketing dept is smoking something on a regular basis.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
You know what though?  Considering what they seem to be doing with Anders in DA2, I wouldn't be surprised if they hand wave and canonize the Old God Baby in some way. Not necessarily the DR, but having Morrigan get a God Baby.
[/quote]
But that would create a foundation for a strong plot thread, Brock, much better to brush it under the carpet.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Nope, I don't think Morrigan really answers any questions straight up. Which is frustrating cause its almost as if Gaider wrote Morrigan in WH more like Flemeth in terms of wishy washy cryptic speak.
[/quote]
It's evident that WH was never intended to further/close/explain the plot thread in any way shape or form really.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Although, I do worry about Morrigan's return given how they've elected to bring back Anders. It would seem that regardless of how you left off Anders at the end of Awakening, he ends up ditching the Wardens and hooking up with Justice/Vengeance. Not to mention that its hardly the same Anders we knew in Awakening anyway- they seem to have gone a 180 with him. That makes me wonder if they don't pull something similar whenever Morrigan returns passing off any character change as up to the passage of time or some such hand waving, basically nullifying any choice you made to influence her in Origins.

Not that they couldn't do something interesting with that sort of thing, but I find character development more compelling when you can start out with a character  at point A and have them end at point B, but the transition from A to B happened organically such that any change in character doesn't seem abrupt but happens in a way that you don't necessarily realize it until you're at that point B. So with Anders 2.0, its like they just skipped everything between A and B and are just starting you at point B and you have to figure out how he got there. I'd hate it if they did something like that with Morrigan in the future.
[/quote]
Well, it's an interesting parallel I suppose - there's surely a tiny fraction of players that sent him off with the templars right at the beginning of Awakening and will put on a crocodile tears showing of how said event isn't respecting their choice, blahblah... Which we can liken to the US/DR debacle. If they're bringing him back and describing Justice as his friend they're effectively canonising/assuming a certain choice in Awakening. So, you have an intelligent choice of ignoring the idiotic route of offing/firing your companions but the questionable tactic of we're bringing them back because we feel there's more to explore... but there's only "more to explore" because they've made a particular change to the character (possibly offscreen?) So yeah Brock, I'd expect a similar device to be used for Morrigan (to which I would share your disgust), likely in part to justify interaction with a new PC. On the surface it's a lazy approach but I'll wait till I play to properly judge its implementation.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
About as many as are crying now because the Warden is gone.

Honestly, it's inevitable and I'll be surprised if someone at Bioware isn't aware of it.
[/quote]
The funny thing about it is the warden would be an easy sell, I know I'd be interested in seeing how both the DR & US wardens could be brought back into things.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Wouldn't make much difference if they had.

If the story and characters ae good, people will inevitably come to love their protagonist and have a hard time letting him go. So even if they know on some level that DA3 will likely have a brand new protagonist they'll still hold on to hope that DA2 isn't the last they've seen of Hawke and that he/she could possiblly come back in the next game.
[/quote]
I think its more that that a silent PC is inherently more "ownable" by the player than a fully voiced equivalent plays into it more, coupled with exactly how you leave the story in the closing moments of the game. Also, the first game in a series sets the mold that most expect it to follow. Hence with a game billed as the spiritual successor to BG2, one could justifiably expect a story that spans multiple games while retaining your PC.

I remember there was a lot of complaining with Metal Gear Solid 2 having a separate protagonist for the second half, now they've essentially closed Snake's story in MGS4, it's not as much of an issue to bring in new leads for spin-off titles etc. When you introduce new cliffhangers and plot twists in your closing moments and apparently "closing" DLCs its a different matter. Though I've said before I'd be satisfied just seing a certain person on-screen in key scenes, its the lazy codex/slight dialogue variation approach that irks me.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Then Gaider will call them myopic and a new batch of players will insult them.
[/quote]
As an experiment, Gaider should announce that the warden will be back for DA3 (as PC). You will witness the majority of the "new batch" have a miraculous change of opinion as they revise their thought processes to mimic the latest thing the devs have stated and defend said choice to the death.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, it says something about BioWare's approach though if a roster update of new PC's is all you get across titles in DA. As I've said before, if it goes the NWN route of one shot stories with tenuous threads of continuity, I'm out. I don't invest dozens of hours of time in a game only for stuff to get retconned and tossed out or forgotten when the main draw of BioWare games are the characters and effects of choices.
[/quote]
My primary objection to the NWN route is Aribeth moments, haphazard redefining of character traits/memories to suit a contrived plot purpose and the roleplaying disconnect in cumulative player knowledge versus player character knowledge. Now to those that only care about embedding their swordstaff into the face of the nearest foe yesterday, such trivialities are hardly a concern but for me its a pretty jarring disconnect when returning characters are done in a one size fits all manner. This of course centers on Morri and imo there's more than enough evidence (both old and recent) to suggest that the important facets of her and her plotline (and those involved in it) will be handled in a less than optimal fashion - ranging from Brock's examples above or BioWare's apparent disinclination to develop content that X% might not see. As I've said before though, BioWare chose to adopt an allegedly no-canon framework for DA and in doing so neither side of the choice / consequence should not be limited/held back by its counterpart because some people "might not" have done X. If that's the approach/attitude combination that BioWare goes with you will never see far reaching consequences in this series (and you probably won't anyway because its apparently a cardinal sin to develop content that some players might not see...)


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I can say pretty easily that unless DA3 directly deals with Morrigan/OGB or they bring the Warden back, I'm done with DA and given by their other offerings, probably BioWare. I just have no interest to play a bunch of games that so blatantly copy off of each other in terms of mechanics/presentation and seem like they're just getting pumped out quicker and quicker to meet the demands of EA, which I fear is slowly driving BioWare's quality into the ground, or at least forcing them to make safer and safer, more generic and forgettable games.
[/quote]
Not using the Morrigan plotline in DA3 is more or less overplaying their hand and trying to give too large a scope to the story before providing adequate development to the overarching plot. As it stands now, I don't think it has a lifeline beyond that of DA3 because new questions and plotlines will come to the fore. You need to react to the choice while the playerbase is still invested in it and if the belated reaction is underwhelming then I think a fair few will be under no illusion as the real extent of choice/consequence in DA. I think pandering to the illusive casual/mainstream audience may reap short term rewards but I think to reach something like the 10 million figure they seek to attain will only result in an extreme dilution of staple rpg features and I think game length will consistently take a hit, a shame really as greater length lends itself by design to greater character depth. Difficulty naturally *must* be reduced because clearly no one likes a challenge.

I pretty much agree with you Brock and I've noted before how BioWare have a tendency to follow up a stellar title with something that's a bit... meh. While I can't say I'm completely turned off by all the changes I've seen in recent vids (so long as I mute Laidlaw's commentary) a good deal of it does seem to be changes to facilitate instant gratification and supplant the OMG Shepard is so badass fascination onto the DA experience. I suspect one of the driving factors is such an experience better lends itself to DLC than its forebear.

After New Vegas, I'm very interested in seeing what Obsidian can do next, really wasn't expecting that game to so good, it captured the proper feel of the old games in modern trappings and the writing and dialogue especially puts Beth's work on ES & F3 to shame and I expect could easily give BioWare a run for their money.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I'm just not buying into Hawke as a PC with the dialogue wheel and all. I never gave a rat's ass about Shepard half as much as my Wardens and in turn, never cared too much about the ME companions because it always just like watching some movie, not being actively involved in the game/story like DAO. I mean, if you saw the 2 minute intro to DA2 that was revealed yesterday, its so painfully obvious they want DA2 to be *just* like a movie. I was just waiting for "A Mike Laidlaw Film" to scroll up on the opening credits. But it doesn't work cause it just looks awkward as all hell. Meh.
[/quote]
I'm with you Brock, though my reasons center mainly on VO. When I returned to WRPGs after a lengthy stint on JRPGs and their whiny emo voiced protagonists (with the exception of a few like the Shin Megami Tensei series with silent leads), Fallout 3 & Dragon Age immediately made it clear what set wrpgs apart from the rest - it put you in the lead role (as opposed to the directors chair) and married that with choice and consequence. Adding a voice to the mix just ejects me from the experience, though evidently many seem to think that watching the game play out for you is immersive...

You know its like Amnesia (thanks for mentioning it constantly btw, completed recently and it was definitely worth the time) - you'll notice you'll get people whining about how its not scary, etc and imo its because the game has to be played a specific way - you have to be able to make that leap if you want to get the full experience and I think its the same deal with silent protagonists - if the player doesn't get the function of that design decision then they see only a failing.

On DA2 - every time I start to get on board with certain aspects of DA2, a Laidlaw quote will pop up somewhere, requiring an immediate . Today's example was that DA2 will be as good as BG2. In light of the chess/silent protagonist comments, it was particularly ironic. I could write a mini-grumble on how JE foreshadowed a major plot point in pretty much the opening moments of the game (then repeatedly impressed it over the next few hours) but I'll leave it there.

There's also some interesting Darrah interviews/snippits doing the rounds somewhere where they're skirting with the notion of making "stories" that aren't rpgs or something to that effect, so BioWare's visual novel or attempt at Heavy Rain is probably closer than you think.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
To get back on the topic of Morrigan, again, I'll reiterate my inane hope that DA2 ends with Morrigan/Warden/OGB stepping out of the Eluvian, with the world all screwed up cause of Hawke getting played like a fool by Flemeth. Cue Warden/Morrigan/OGB blasting Hawke into oblivion and taking care of business. I can dream, right?
[/quote]
Yes to the former, but the latter is just myopic.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Then the OGB will not exist due to some import bug nutting up the game.
[/quote]
^This, this so much. I can picture it now, somehow the stars will have aligned, BioWare will have made a really decent warden-inclusive tie in with the Morri/OGB plot line to close things off nicely but as with all things Morrigan (which I'm convinced is a running joke in the BioWare offices) it won't trigger, due to a bug in DA2. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Oh well, at least Ximena's comic will give some decent Morrigan goodness while BioWare likely makes DA into an FPS free to play MMO facebook game in a few years.
[/quote]
I too believe Ximena will be our saviour in this long running saga of misery [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]. And Brock, how did you manage to get hold of the DA3 design docs? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

[quote]Lord_Anthonior wrote...
Well, that's basically why I'm buying DA2, hoping that it will lead and have something to do with Morrigan/Warden and OGB, unlikely or a hard chance but if DA3 has nothing to do with them I'm not getting it, I can very well watch the playthroughs in the internet if I get curious about DA3. So that's my hope for DA3 and why I considered of getting DA2. Also I do wonder what the missing episodes of Hawke in DLC format will be about, if maybe regarding more of Flemeth or something more into what Morrigan will do or even IF something to help about from this side of the mirror to help her (or them) to come back.

Dreaming, Hoping or being realist I think all I can do is wait. My interest in Bioware started with Origins and if something happens and they go in another way of the story then I think it will just go as far as Origins and a DLC.
[/quote]
My interest in BioWare remains as long as they make decent games, however the focus shifts somewhat when they insist on spreading plot arcs over multiple games. The first time they mess it up with a lacklustre showing or throwing continuity to the wind, I'm out. As a romance interest, party member and apparent world-changing companion who the player can end the game with I have certain expectations as to what I want to see when Morri returns.


[quote]Swoo wrote...
I'm kind of two minds about this. I of course favor continuity and building on personal stories above one-offs, but I also have enjoyed many series that go the One-And-Done Hero route. The biggest thing is 'Is the story self-contained enough to move on to the new chapter?'. Several (especially the JRPGs) rather successful and storied franchises pull it off with no problems, even sharing a common world or bridging meta-plot, because there's a very clear stopping point that even though you want more, you can see how enough was enough.
[/quote]
Nail on the head Swoo, whilst certain BioWare execs have a penchant to mock jrpgs, they at least keep things in scope and in general wrap up things neatly. I personally am looking forward to the Tactics Ogre re-release, a superb branching rpg with numerous endings, tie ins with other games in the series (including meaningful cameos of previous protagonists) and it still wraps everything up nicely, that they're adding in more content for re-release leaves me more excited for a decade+ old game that I've played before than BioWare's latest offering. I'd point out that I know of no other rpg series where the playerbase actively worries whether the devs will bother to properly bridge and continue certain plot threads (wardens + witches going into mirrors) or whether they'll just pull a codex explanation for the whole thing. I agree with what you're saying though, there's an appealing simplicity and clean end point in jrpgs where pretty much everything is resolved - and they most certainly don't pull DR style stuff at the very end and do nothing with it.

[quote]Swoo wrote...
I think they failed at this in Origins by going against their original idea that the Archdemon killed you no matter what. It would even have made sense that the DR would be offered with no chance of survival as more of a 'You are going to die, this is the only chance' and then they moved onto the story. As it stands, at least half (perhaps more) of players and ending were left with a 'To Be Continued' feel that was followed up with 'Chapter II: Tony Hawke".
[/quote]
I've thought of that before but the problem with that is you'd have a kind of but thou must scenario which essentially eliminates the "big choice" from Origins because the outcome would have been the same. At the time I felt that the DR sequence didn't offer adequate dialogue choices to explore the issues that I wanted to broach. Also of equal importance was there was no justifiable reason given why a morri-romancing warden could not leave with her/follow shortly after her. Her dialogue might fit fine if you shunned her throughout the game, but in context of a friend or especially romantically involved warden it comes across as "I'm leaving, you can't follow/ask why/do anything about it because the writers say so." If you're aiming for bittersweet there has to be grounding for it in the plot and dialogue, and Flemeth-esque meandering around said issue doesn't provide it. I would probably have allowed the player to leave with her (assuming we were going with the new PC approach) and had the expansion/DLCs focus on a mini-series of events that'd lead into DA2. Then, at whatever point Morrigan reappeared, you simple stick the warden placeholder in the scene, continuity acheived. As it stands though, they have perpetuated the idea that the warden(s) could still have a part to play in the future and not just those who romanced Morrigan.


[quote]Swoo wrote...
The Xeno games actually did that, and I found it very enjoyable, but with the new push being 'as accessable as possible' it would never happen in EA-Bioware. I think many would find it disjointing to continiously change major P.O.V. characters instead of staying on the rails. To make the point because I'm sure it's easy to think it between the lines, I'm not saying it's too smart for some players or anything, just that there's a mindset that would like it, and another that wouldn't, and I can't see them doing that after this major streamline push.
[/quote]
Are you referring to XenoGears/Saga, Swoo? I recall you said you weren't a fan? Suikoden 3 also did it to great effect in depicting a country-wide conflict and even let you play select events from the antagonist's POV provided you accomplished certain goals (plus the antagonist was a semi-important character in the first two games). My personal favourite in the series all things considered.

As an aside, XenoSaga 2 also screwed with the (imo perfect) combat system from XS1 in an apparent attempt to draw in new fans, f'd it up completely and p*ssed off a lot of fans. A damn shame really, luckily XS3 set things right, though the difficulty was lower than I would've liked - big battles like against T-ELOS were cakewalks.

Getting back to the point of switching POVs though- while I would prefer something like Brock's suggested, I fear it doesn't fit in with BioWare's badass simulator mindset. You could argue that appointing Varric and Cassandra as the de facto main characters and the frame narrative itself presents equal opportunity for a disjointed experience. The notion of having to redo certain portions of gameplay in exaggerated/non-exaggerated form in particular could be likened to the oft-despised trope of dungeon backtracking/reuse.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I wouldn't mind as much if Origins gave you a concrete ending no matter what. Like BG2 and ToB gives you a good sense of closure in that it doesn't introduce any new plot threads towards the end unlike the DR which sort of turns the whole notion of "Origins and the Wardens was all about killing the AD" out the door. I mean, sure the Blight was stopped, but did we stop the Archdemon/Old Gods if you did the DR? We have no clue, and its a nice twist, but only if some of those questions are answered or its dealt with in the future.

Really, an expack could even have partly dealt with Morrigan in a more meaningful way than WH. WH wasn't terrible, but it only provided closure for as long as Morrigan isn't in the picture. The second she comes back into things, any closure provided by WH goes out the window. And how BioWare deals with that is what I want to see and will determine how interested I stay in DA.
[/quote]
I'm tempted to say "Why create content that x% of players will never see?" to your last point Brock, it just feels... BioWare-esque.

Agreed on WH and your thoughts on it mirror my own. It felt like stopgap closure. It serves a purpose for now, but should Morrigan turn up sans the warden in DA3 (or some codex/dialogue line variation bs) that to me renders WH useless and actively negates a player choice. If the gift thing was truly a fourth-wall breaking moment of her giving you the "Witchcraft" items then that too is beyond a joke. However if things do tie together into some kind of resolution then all's well.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, I guess I'd go off of Starcraft as a template or even how Tolkien structured The Lord of the RIngs books, what with following one character or group of characters for a time and then switching to provide a different POV and then bringing everybody back at the end. Same idea- maybe start with Mr. New Epic Hero for Act 1, Hawke for Act 2, and then the Warden for Act 3. Hell, thinking of that, thats pretty much what Call of Duty has done, just think Modern Warfare- and it doesn't get more mainstream than that. They could even shock people by *gasp*  killing off Hawke in the second act before switching to the Warden. And BioWare could pass it off as some ground breaking narrative innovation like the framed narrative, which again, has already been done in a good amount of games.
[/quote]
Quick, you should suggest to BioWare, get the buzzwords in there - COD, 10Mil and we're all set. And on your last point, yes, BioWare is very good a repackaging devices and making it appear they're the pioneer of said approach. The "innovative" way companions do their own thing around town sounds remarkably like Radiata Stories (another rpg based in a city coincidentally) handles party members, with each of 70~ (might be off on the number, not played in a while) having their own schedules based off a 24hr clock.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
True enough on Anders still face wise seeming to look like Anders. Although- and maybe its just the camera angles in the screens available- he seems to suffer from DA2 massive jaw/chin syndrome. It gives me a little faith they wouldn't goof up Morrigan's face in some hypothetical new DA game, but time will tell.
[/quote]
Screw that, this is the Morrigan Discussion & Research (and thinly veiled DA series pessimism thread).

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Hmmm.. well, seeing as Aveline was just confirmed as not being a LI in DA2, I think that kills my interest in playing a male Hawke seeing as there don't seem to be any interesting LIs.
[/quote]
Makes no difference whatsoever to me as the third person full VO approach masquerading as first person kills it for me. If we're to look forward to "But the priiize" moments courtesy of our esteemed VO talent I'll pass. I think VO romances can work if they're defined as mandatory in the plot, when you've trying to make Hawke a be-everything type and the romances are optional it falls flat as with Shepard.

[quote]LTS_Guitarian wrote...
Yeah, but I bet he thinks Romeo and Juliet  was a romantic comedy.  The "feel good" play of the year.  He's certainly got a flair for writing characters, but everything always ends badly.  That gets old after a while....like after the first time.
[/quote]
Oh this has come up before, when we reach the point when you can guess with some certainly how the "bad girl" Gaider romance ends I'd say he needs to rethink the outcome. I did like it when Barbarossa dubbed Cassandra "Gaider's Girl" and the thread opted to steer clear of that particular landmine.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yep, very true. I can almost see them making Meril like Leliana and Isabela like Morrigan (she too displayed relunctance I think). Hopefully they won't be cheap imitations. But all in all, I am not excited about any of them.
[/quote]
I'm not particularly intrigued by any of the companions, period. Which is odd for a BioWare game, maybe that'll change when I play.

[quote]ximena wrote...
I think the Gaider-ing here is on Fenris. Hahahaha. (I have a feeling in my gut he's an LI. And the angst potential is just so strooong.)
[/quote]
I would relish it if someone else got Gaider'd for a change but it seems Gaider doesn't often p*ss off his fangirls, he just gets off on torturing Morri-fans.

[quote]Grendenhal wrote...
Love this thread, but who has time to read everything closely?
[/quote]
Me and Brock, on occasion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote..
What gets me is that these are the same group of people who don't want to bring (insert character here) back because he or she might have died...
[/quote]
I get it for continuity reasons, but these same people seemingly would rather have dead plot threads than utilise the good stuff, which is why I'd be in favour of just preventing perma-deaths altogether.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote..
If Morrigan comes back, I imagine she'll get the same treatment any returning character has received, and we'll probably be reminded that "this isn't the same Morrigan from DAO or even WH." Which, OK, if the PC isn't the Warden, pending how she's developed, can be acceptable. And it might (*MIGHT*) be more plausible than the Justice-Anders merger.
[/quote]
It's as lazy as using the codex to develop the world of Thedas really as well as being a major handwave to choices/past relations and character development. Since Morrigan is a LI/party member and recurring character she's technically one that requires the most work to ensure she... "works" within the game world. Randomly rewriting her character - I'll be honest it's something I expect of bad fan fiction, whatever the reasoning behind it. It's something I can see them doing too, though as has been noted not just by us in this thread, Morrigan's character development is largely tied up with the warden and doing something of that ilk is the easiest way to get around it. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Just like so many possible tragic endings seem to write themselves with Morrigan, reintroducing her as some Gandalf the White /Uber God like/ Half Dragon/ Demon possessed/ Spirit Possessed/ Old God Possessed version of post Eluvian Morrigan would seem sort of predictable and quite frankly a cop out. To me, that just seems like such a cheap way of being able to bring back a character while simultaneously pretty much being able to ditch their background and essentially make them a new character.

We'll see how its done with Anders I guess.I just usually hate when they do stuff like this because instead of having the character progress forward from where you the player left off with them, you spend too much time thinking "Well, hold up how did X, Y or Z happen to you while I was away?" instead of just having them continue to develop in the present game.  Its like a cheap way to create extra backstory.

But especially if we're not the Warden whenever Morrigan returns, I'd expect BioWare to pull some such schenanigans with a reinvented Morrigan. Bleh.
[/quote]
Completely agree Brock, though I'd be remiss if I didn't make mention of just how myopic your statement was. As an aside I'm still not putting it past BioWare to use the Eluvian as a Unreal Tourney insta-gib for the warden.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 10 février 2011 - 03:35 .

[LTS_Guitarian]

Modifié par LTS_Guitarian, 10 février 2011 - 09:29 .

[LTS_Guitarian]

Wow.  Just wow.  Did you have to take breaks to allow your hands to uncramp? 

That is seriously a whole lotta typin', lol.  But yeah, it looks like you're pretty much up to speed on everything so far, which is: A lot of us hate what they're doing to the story, some of us are okay with it, and some of us are actually looking forwards to what happens next.  In other words, the same 'ol same 'ol.

[Jarlof Seoul]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

haha- but you know what? If indeed Merrill (who I think was written by Mary Kirby) and Isabella (written by Sheryl Chee) are indeed the only female LI's for a male Hawke, that means no Gaider written romance! No getting GAIDER'D! Thats sort of too bad really though, as for much crap as Gaider gets, he does do decent work with the companions I think.

Yeah, but I bet he thinks Romeo and Juliet  was a romantic comedy.  The "feel good" play of the year.  He's certainly got a flair for writing characters, but everything always ends badly.  That gets old after a while....like after the first time.

So true

[Jarlof Seoul]

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...

Time to take a break from my Mount & Blade campaign since my castles keep getting taken. Since we're in pessimism mode (courtesy of Brock [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]), I shall add my thoughts. My apologies to those who dislike lengthy posts.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sleeping.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Its a steaming load of BS either way. They sure as hell didn't reveal a single one of Morrigan's secrets, answer any questions or reveal her fate, like the trailer hinted at:

BioWare's marketing is terrible on a good day, blatantly dishonest and terrible on a bad day. I'm sorry but there is no other way to put it.
[/quote]
Yeah, I think we've established by this point the marketing dept is smoking something on a regular basis.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
You know what though?  Considering what they seem to be doing with Anders in DA2, I wouldn't be surprised if they hand wave and canonize the Old God Baby in some way. Not necessarily the DR, but having Morrigan get a God Baby.
[/quote]
But that would create a foundation for a strong plot thread, Brock, much better to brush it under the carpet.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Nope, I don't think Morrigan really answers any questions straight up. Which is frustrating cause its almost as if Gaider wrote Morrigan in WH more like Flemeth in terms of wishy washy cryptic speak.
[/quote]
It's evident that WH was never intended to further/close/explain the plot thread in any way shape or form really.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Although, I do worry about Morrigan's return given how they've elected to bring back Anders. It would seem that regardless of how you left off Anders at the end of Awakening, he ends up ditching the Wardens and hooking up with Justice/Vengeance. Not to mention that its hardly the same Anders we knew in Awakening anyway- they seem to have gone a 180 with him. That makes me wonder if they don't pull something similar whenever Morrigan returns passing off any character change as up to the passage of time or some such hand waving, basically nullifying any choice you made to influence her in Origins.

Not that they couldn't do something interesting with that sort of thing, but I find character development more compelling when you can start out with a character  at point A and have them end at point B, but the transition from A to B happened organically such that any change in character doesn't seem abrupt but happens in a way that you don't necessarily realize it until you're at that point B. So with Anders 2.0, its like they just skipped everything between A and B and are just starting you at point B and you have to figure out how he got there. I'd hate it if they did something like that with Morrigan in the future.
[/quote]
Well, it's an interesting parallel I suppose - there's surely a tiny fraction of players that sent him off with the templars right at the beginning of Awakening and will put on a crocodile tears showing of how said event isn't respecting their choice, blahblah... Which we can liken to the US/DR debacle. If they're bringing him back and describing Justice as his friend they're effectively canonising/assuming a certain choice in Awakening. So, you have an intelligent choice of ignoring the idiotic route of offing/firing your companions but the questionable tactic of we're bringing them back because we feel there's more to explore... but there's only "more to explore" because they've made a particular change to the character (possibly offscreen?) So yeah Brock, I'd expect a similar device to be used for Morrigan (to which I would share your disgust), likely in part to justify interaction with a new PC. On the surface it's a lazy approach but I'll wait till I play to properly judge its implementation.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
About as many as are crying now because the Warden is gone.

Honestly, it's inevitable and I'll be surprised if someone at Bioware isn't aware of it.
[/quote]
The funny thing about it is the warden would be an easy sell, I know I'd be interested in seeing how both the DR & US wardens could be brought back into things.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Wouldn't make much difference if they had.

If the story and characters ae good, people will inevitably come to love their protagonist and have a hard time letting him go. So even if they know on some level that DA3 will likely have a brand new protagonist they'll still hold on to hope that DA2 isn't the last they've seen of Hawke and that he/she could possiblly come back in the next game.
[/quote]
I think its more that that a silent PC is inherently more "ownable" by the player than a fully voiced equivalent plays into it more, coupled with exactly how you leave the story in the closing moments of the game. Also, the first game in a series sets the mold that most expect it to follow. Hence with a game billed as the spiritual successor to BG2, one could justifiably expect a story that spans multiple games while retaining your PC.

I remember there was a lot of complaining with Metal Gear Solid 2 having a separate protagonist for the second half, now they've essentially closed Snake's story in MGS4, it's not as much of an issue to bring in new leads for spin-off titles etc. When you introduce new cliffhangers and plot twists in your closing moments and apparently "closing" DLCs its a different matter. Though I've said before I'd be satisfied just seing a certain person on-screen in key scenes, its the lazy codex/slight dialogue variation approach that irks me.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Then Gaider will call them myopic and a new batch of players will insult them.
[/quote]
As an experiment, Gaider should announce that the warden will be back for DA3 (as PC). You will witness the majority of the "new batch" have a miraculous change of opinion as they revise their thought processes to mimic the latest thing the devs have stated and defend said choice to the death.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, it says something about BioWare's approach though if a roster update of new PC's is all you get across titles in DA. As I've said before, if it goes the NWN route of one shot stories with tenuous threads of continuity, I'm out. I don't invest dozens of hours of time in a game only for stuff to get retconned and tossed out or forgotten when the main draw of BioWare games are the characters and effects of choices.
[/quote]
My primary objection to the NWN route is Aribeth moments, haphazard redefining of character traits/memories to suit a contrived plot purpose and the roleplaying disconnect in cumulative player knowledge versus player character knowledge. Now to those that only care about embedding their swordstaff into the face of the nearest foe yesterday, such trivialities are hardly a concern but for me its a pretty jarring disconnect when returning characters are done in a one size fits all manner. This of course centers on Morri and imo there's more than enough evidence (both old and recent) to suggest that the important facets of her and her plotline (and those involved in it) will be handled in a less than optimal fashion - ranging from Brock's examples above or BioWare's apparent disinclination to develop content that X% might not see. As I've said before though, BioWare chose to adopt an allegedly no-canon framework for DA and in doing so neither side of the choice / consequence should not be limited/held back by its counterpart because some people "might not" have done X. If that's the approach/attitude combination that BioWare goes with you will never see far reaching consequences in this series (and you probably won't anyway because its apparently a cardinal sin to develop content that some players might not see...)


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I can say pretty easily that unless DA3 directly deals with Morrigan/OGB or they bring the Warden back, I'm done with DA and given by their other offerings, probably BioWare. I just have no interest to play a bunch of games that so blatantly copy off of each other in terms of mechanics/presentation and seem like they're just getting pumped out quicker and quicker to meet the demands of EA, which I fear is slowly driving BioWare's quality into the ground, or at least forcing them to make safer and safer, more generic and forgettable games.
[/quote]
Not using the Morrigan plotline in DA3 is more or less overplaying their hand and trying to give too large a scope to the story before providing adequate development to the overarching plot. As it stands now, I don't think it has a lifeline beyond that of DA3 because new questions and plotlines will come to the fore. You need to react to the choice while the playerbase is still invested in it and if the belated reaction is underwhelming then I think a fair few will be under no illusion as the real extent of choice/consequence in DA. I think pandering to the illusive casual/mainstream audience may reap short term rewards but I think to reach something like the 10 million figure they seek to attain will only result in an extreme dilution of staple rpg features and I think game length will consistently take a hit, a shame really as greater length lends itself by design to greater character depth. Difficulty naturally *must* be reduced because clearly no one likes a challenge.

I pretty much agree with you Brock and I've noted before how BioWare have a tendency to follow up a stellar title with something that's a bit... meh. While I can't say I'm completely turned off by all the changes I've seen in recent vids (so long as I mute Laidlaw's commentary) a good deal of it does seem to be changes to facilitate instant gratification and supplant the OMG Shepard is so badass fascination onto the DA experience. I suspect one of the driving factors is such an experience better lends itself to DLC than its forebear.

After New Vegas, I'm very interested in seeing what Obsidian can do next, really wasn't expecting that game to so good, it captured the proper feel of the old games in modern trappings and the writing and dialogue especially puts Beth's work on ES & F3 to shame and I expect could easily give BioWare a run for their money.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I'm just not buying into Hawke as a PC with the dialogue wheel and all. I never gave a rat's ass about Shepard half as much as my Wardens and in turn, never cared too much about the ME companions because it always just like watching some movie, not being actively involved in the game/story like DAO. I mean, if you saw the 2 minute intro to DA2 that was revealed yesterday, its so painfully obvious they want DA2 to be *just* like a movie. I was just waiting for "A Mike Laidlaw Film" to scroll up on the opening credits. But it doesn't work cause it just looks awkward as all hell. Meh.
[/quote]
I'm with you Brock, though my reasons center mainly on VO. When I returned to WRPGs after a lengthy stint on JRPGs and their whiny emo voiced protagonists (with the exception of a few like the Shin Megami Tensei series with silent leads), Fallout 3 & Dragon Age immediately made it clear what set wrpgs apart from the rest - it put you in the lead role (as opposed to the directors chair) and married that with choice and consequence. Adding a voice to the mix just ejects me from the experience, though evidently many seem to think that watching the game play out for you is immersive...

You know its like Amnesia (thanks for mentioning it constantly btw, completed recently and it was definitely worth the time) - you'll notice you'll get people whining about how its not scary, etc and imo its because the game has to be played a specific way - you have to be able to make that leap if you want to get the full experience and I think its the same deal with silent protagonists - if the player doesn't get the function of that design decision then they see only a failing.

On DA2 - every time I start to get on board with certain aspects of DA2, a Laidlaw quote will pop up somewhere, requiring an immediate . Today's example was that DA2 will be as good as BG2. In light of the chess/silent protagonist comments, it was particularly ironic. I could write a mini-grumble on how JE foreshadowed a major plot point in pretty much the opening moments of the game (then repeatedly impressed it over the next few hours) but I'll leave it there.

There's also some interesting Darrah interviews/snippits doing the rounds somewhere where they're skirting with the notion of making "stories" that aren't rpgs or something to that effect, so BioWare's visual novel or attempt at Heavy Rain is probably closer than you think.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
To get back on the topic of Morrigan, again, I'll reiterate my inane hope that DA2 ends with Morrigan/Warden/OGB stepping out of the Eluvian, with the world all screwed up cause of Hawke getting played like a fool by Flemeth. Cue Warden/Morrigan/OGB blasting Hawke into oblivion and taking care of business. I can dream, right?
[/quote]
Yes to the former, but the latter is just myopic.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Then the OGB will not exist due to some import bug nutting up the game.
[/quote]
^This, this so much. I can picture it now, somehow the stars will have aligned, BioWare will have made a really decent warden-inclusive tie in with the Morri/OGB plot line to close things off nicely but as with all things Morrigan (which I'm convinced is a running joke in the BioWare offices) it won't trigger, due to a bug in DA2. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Oh well, at least Ximena's comic will give some decent Morrigan goodness while BioWare likely makes DA into an FPS free to play MMO facebook game in a few years.
[/quote]
I too believe Ximena will be our saviour in this long running saga of misery [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]. And Brock, how did you manage to get hold of the DA3 design docs? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

[quote]Lord_Anthonior wrote...
Well, that's basically why I'm buying DA2, hoping that it will lead and have something to do with Morrigan/Warden and OGB, unlikely or a hard chance but if DA3 has nothing to do with them I'm not getting it, I can very well watch the playthroughs in the internet if I get curious about DA3. So that's my hope for DA3 and why I considered of getting DA2. Also I do wonder what the missing episodes of Hawke in DLC format will be about, if maybe regarding more of Flemeth or something more into what Morrigan will do or even IF something to help about from this side of the mirror to help her (or them) to come back.

Dreaming, Hoping or being realist I think all I can do is wait. My interest in Bioware started with Origins and if something happens and they go in another way of the story then I think it will just go as far as Origins and a DLC.
[/quote]
My interest in BioWare remains as long as they make decent games, however the focus shifts somewhat when they insist on spreading plot arcs over multiple games. The first time they mess it up with a lacklustre showing or throwing continuity to the wind, I'm out. As a romance interest, party member and apparent world-changing companion who the player can end the game with, but I have certain expectations as to what I want to see when they return.


[quote]Swoo wrote...
I'm kind of two minds about this. I of course favor continuity and building on personal stories above one-offs, but I also have enjoyed many series that go the One-And-Done Hero route. The biggest thing is 'Is the story self-contained enough to move on to the new chapter?'. Several (especially the JRPGs) rather successful and storied franchises pull it off with no problems, even sharing a common world or bridging meta-plot, because there's a very clear stopping point that even though you want more, you can see how enough was enough.
[/quote]
Nail on the head Swoo, whilst certain BioWare execs have a penchant to mock jrpgs, they at least keep things in scope and in general wrap up things neatly. I personally am looking forward to the Tactics Ogre re-release, a superb branching rpg with numerous endings, tie ins with other games in the series (including meaningful cameos of previous protagonists) and it still wraps everything up nicely, that they're adding in more content for re-release leaves me more excited for a decade+ old game that I've played before than BioWare's latest offering. I'd point out that I know of no other rpg series where the playerbase actively worries whether the devs will bother to properly bridge and continue certain plot threads (wardens + witches going into mirrors) or whether they'll just pull a codex explanation for the whole thing. I agree with what you're saying though, there's an appealing simplicity and clean end point in jrpgs where pretty much everything is resolved - and they most certainly don't pull DR style stuff at the very end and do nothing with it.

[quote]Swoo wrote...
I think they failed at this in Origins by going against their original idea that the Archdemon killed you no matter what. It would even have made sense that the DR would be offered with no chance of survival as more of a 'You are going to die, this is the only chance' and then they moved onto the story. As it stands, at least half (perhaps more) of players and ending were left with a 'To Be Continued' feel that was followed up with 'Chapter II: Tony Hawke".
[/quote]
I've thought of that before but the problem with that is you'd have a kind of but thou must scenario which essentially eliminates the "big choice" from Origins because the outcome would have been the same. At the time I felt that the DR sequence didn't offer adequate dialogue choices to explore the issues that I wanted to broach. Also of equal importance was there was no justifiable reason given why a morri-romancing warden could not leave with her/follow shortly after her. Her dialogue might fit fine if you shunned her throughout the game, but in context of a friend or especially romantically involved warden it comes across as "I'm leaving, you can't follow/ask when/do anything about it because the writers say so." If you're aiming for bittersweet there has to be grounding for it in the plot and dialogue, and Flemeth-esque meandering around said issue doesn't provide it. I would probably have allowed the player to leave with her (assuming we were going with the new PC approach) and had the expansion/DLCs focus on a mini-series of events that'd lead into DA2. Then, at whatever point Morrigan reappeared, you simple stick the warden placeholder in the scene, continuity acheived. As it stands though, they have perpetuated the idea that the warden(s) could still have a part to play in the future and not just those who romanced Morrigan.


[quote]Swoo wrote...
The Xeno games actually did that, and I found it very enjoyable, but with the new push being 'as accessable as possible' it would never happen in EA-Bioware. I think many would find it disjointing to continiously change major P.O.V. characters instead of staying on the rails. To make the point because I'm sure it's easy to think it between the lines, I'm not saying it's too smart for some players or anything, just that there's a mindset that would like it, and another that wouldn't, and I can't see them doing that after this major streamline push.
[/quote]
Are you referring to XenoGears/Saga, Swoo? I recall you said you weren't a fan? Suikoden 3 also did it to great effect in depicting a country-wide conflict and even let you play select events from the antagonist's POV provided you accomplished certain goals (plus the antagonist was a semi-important character in the first two games). My personal favourite in the series all things considered.

As an aside, XenoSaga 2 also screwed with the (imo perfect) combat system from XS1 in an apparent attempt to draw in new fans, f'd it up completely and p*ssed off a lot of fans. A damn shame really, luckily XS3 set things right, though the difficulty was lower than I would've liked - big battles like against T-ELOS were cakewalks.

Getting back to the point of switching POVs though- while I would prefer something like Brock's suggested, I fear it doesn't fit in with BioWare's badass simulator mindset. You could argue that appointing Varric and Cassandra as the de facto main characters and the frame narrative itself presents equal opportunity for a disjointed experience. The notion of having to redo certain portions of gameplay in exaggerated/non-exaggerated form in particular could be likened to the oft-despised trope of dungeon backtracking/reuse.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I wouldn't mind as much if Origins gave you a concrete ending no matter what. Like BG2 and ToB gives you a good sense of closure in that it doesn't introduce any new plot threads towards the end unlike the DR which sort of turns the whole notion of "Origins and the Wardens was all about killing the AD" out the door. I mean, sure the Blight was stopped, but did we stop the Archdemon/Old Gods if you did the DR? We have no clue, and its a nice twist, but only if some of those questions are answered or its dealt with in the future.

Really, an expack could even have partly dealt with Morrigan in a more meaningful way than WH. WH wasn't terrible, but it only provided closure for as long as Morrigan isn't in the picture. The second she comes back into things, any closure provided by WH goes out the window. And how BioWare deals with that is what I want to see and will determine how interested I stay in DA.
[/quote]
I'm tempted to say "Why create content that x% of players will never see?" to your last point Brock, it just feels... BioWare-esque.

Agreed on WH and your thoughts on it mirror my own. It felt like stopgap closure. It serves a purpose for now, but should Morrigan turn up sans the warden in DA3 (or some codex/dialogue line variation bs) that to me renders WH useless and actively negates a player choice. If the gift thing was truly a fourth-wall breaking moment of her giving you the "Witchcraft" items then that too is beyond a joke. However if things do tie together into some kind of resolution then all's well.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, I guess I'd go off of Starcraft as a template or even how Tolkien structured The Lord of the RIngs books, what with following one character or group of characters for a time and then switching to provide a different POV and then bringing everybody back at the end. Same idea- maybe start with Mr. New Epic Hero for Act 1, Hawke for Act 2, and then the Warden for Act 3. Hell, thinking of that, thats pretty much what Call of Duty has done, just think Modern Warfare- and it doesn't get more mainstream than that. They could even shock people by *gasp*  killing off Hawke in the second act before switching to the Warden. And BioWare could pass it off as some ground breaking narrative innovation like the framed narrative, which again, has already been done in a good amount of games.
[/quote]
Quick, you should suggest to BioWare, get the buzzwords in there - COD, 10Mil and we're all set. And on your last point, yes, BioWare is very good a repackaging devices and making it appear they're the pioneer of said approach. The "innovative" way companions do their own thing around town sounds remarkably like Radiata Stories (another rpg based in a city coincidentally) handles party members, with each of 70~ (might be off on the number, not played in a while) having their own schedules based off a 24hr clock.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
True enough on Anders still face wise seeming to look like Anders. Although- and maybe its just the camera angles in the screens available- he seems to suffer from DA2 massive jaw/chin syndrome. It gives me a little faith they wouldn't goof up Morrigan's face in some hypothetical new DA game, but time will tell.
[/quote]
Screw that, this is the Morrigan Discussion & Research (and thinly veiled DA series pessimism thread).

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Hmmm.. well, seeing as Aveline was just confirmed as not being a LI in DA2, I think that kills my interest in playing a male Hawke seeing as there don't seem to be any interesting LIs.
[/quote]
Makes no difference whatsoever to me as the third person full VO approach masquerading as first person kills it for me. If we're to look forward to "But the priiize" moments courtesy of our esteemed VO talent I'll pass. I think VO romances can work if they're defined as mandatory in the plot, when you've trying to make Hawke a be-everything type and the romances are optional it falls flat as with Shepard.

[quote]LTS_Guitarian wrote...
Yeah, but I bet he thinks Romeo and Juliet  was a romantic comedy.  The "feel good" play of the year.  He's certainly got a flair for writing characters, but everything always ends badly.  That gets old after a while....like after the first time.
[/quote]
Oh this has come up before, when we reach the point when you can guess with some certainly how the "bad girl" Gaider romance ends I'd say he needs to rethink the outcome. I did like it when Barbarossa dubbed Cassandra "Gaider's Girl" and the thread opted to steer clear of that particular landmine.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yep, very true. I can almost see them making Meril like Leliana and Isabela like Morrigan (she too displayed relunctance I think). Hopefully they won't be cheap imitations. But all in all, I am not excited about any of them.
[/quote]
I'm not particularly intrigued by any of the companions, period. Which is odd for a BioWare game, maybe that'll change when I play.

[quote]ximena wrote...
I think the Gaider-ing here is on Fenris. Hahahaha. (I have a feeling in my gut he's an LI. And the angst potential is just so strooong.)
[/quote]
I would relish it if someone else got Gaider'd for a change but it seems Gaider doesn't often p*ss off his fangirls, he just gets off on torturing Morri-fans.

[quote]Grendenhal wrote...
Love this thread, but who has time to read everything closely?
[/quote]
Me and Brock, on occasion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote..
What gets me is that these are the same group of people who don't want to bring (insert character here) back because he or she might have died...
[/quote]
I get it for continuity reasons, but these same people seemingly would rather have dead plot threads than utilise the good stuff, which is why I'd be in favour of just preventing perma-deaths altogether.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote..
If Morrigan comes back, I imagine she'll get the same treatment any returning character has received, and we'll probably be reminded that "this isn't the same Morrigan from DAO or even WH." Which, OK, if the PC isn't the Warden, pending how she's developed, can be acceptable. And it might (*MIGHT*) be more plausible than the Justice-Anders merger.
[/quote]
It's as lazy as using the codex to develop the world of Thedas really as well as being a major handwave to choices/past relations and character development. Since Morrigan is a LI/party member and recurring character she's technically one that requires the most work to ensure she... "works" within the game world. Randomly rewriting her character - I'll be honest it's something I expect of bad fan fiction, whatever the reasoning behind it. It's something I can see them doing too, though as has been noted not just by us in this thread, Morrigan's character development is largely tied up with the warden and doing something of that ilk is the easiest way to get around it. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Just like so many possible tragic endings seem to write themselves with Morrigan, reintroducing her as some Gandalf the White /Uber God like/ Half Dragon/ Demon possessed/ Spirit Possessed/ Old God Possessed version of post Eluvian Morrigan would seem sort of predictable and quite frankly a cop out. To me, that just seems like such a cheap way of being able to bring back a character while simultaneously pretty much being able to ditch their background and essentially make them a new character.

We'll see how its done with Anders I guess.I just usually hate when they do stuff like this because instead of having the character progress forward from where you the player left off with them, you spend too much time thinking "Well, hold up how did X, Y or Z happen to you while I was away?" instead of just having them continue to develop in the present game.  Its like a cheap way to create extra backstory.

But especially if we're not the Warden whenever Morrigan returns, I'd expect BioWare to pull some such schenanigans with a reinvented Morrigan. Bleh.
[/quote]
Completely agree Brock, though I'd be remiss if I didn't make mention of just how myopic your statement was. As an aside I'm still not putting it past BioWare to use the Eluvian as a Unreal Tourney insta-gib for the warden.
[/quote]

Voici, a truly epic post!

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

As I've said before though, they certainly could "reintroduce" Morrigan that way in some future game, but I find that to be incredibly cheap and lazy way of forcing character development, more often than not. IMO, its a more interesting experience when you can see any change in character happen smoothly over time without some sort of cheap shock tactics type "Oh! Morrigan is BACK! But *gasp* its NOT the Morrigan you remember!" 

But characters don't develop purely as a result of interaction with the player character. For npcs like Morrigan life goes on not just in the game we're playing, but also in the period between different games, where they keep on evolving because of things that happen to them off screen. Things that we, as players, won't see or know about until we run into them again in the future.
We have no idea what's going to happen to Morrigan inside the Eluvian. We know she went there to prepare the OGB for what is to come and to gather both power and time. How all that is going to affect her is unknown, but she'll definitely change in some way as a result of that. Granted sticking a demon inside a person, like they did with Anders in DA2, is quite a drastic change. It means that Anders may not be quite the same wise-cracking, care-free person that he was in Awakening. However, he'll still be recognizable as the same mage we knew in that expansion.
Not having characters undergo off screen development can be just as bad. Look at Oghren. In Origins he was somewhat interesting because he was a new character, who we didn't know well. In awakening, he came back exactly as he was in DA:O, and people found him to be boring and uniteresting as the result. Think how muh better it would have been if his life on the surface, new family or simply the fact that he became a Grey Warden had changed him in some way. For me, Oghren in Awakening was a perfect opportunity to explain how life can change for a dwarf who leaves Orzammar to settle on the surface. His banter with Sigrun could have shown us the difference between being casteless and being a surfacer. Instead all we got we're lame sexist jokes. Oghren didn't see any character development between Origins and Awakening, and as a result, he was found to be boring by a majority of players.


P.S.

In case some of you may have started to wonder; no, I haven't joined the "Bioware is so awesome they can do no wrong!" club. I'm simply trying to look at things from different perspective so that we can have actual debate and deep thinking here, as opposed to recycling the same old fears and rants over and over again. 

Modifié par Master Shiori, 10 février 2011 - 11:18 .

[LTS_Guitarian]

Master Shiori wrote...
In case some of you may have started to wonder; no, I haven't joined the "Bioware is so awesome they can do no wrong!" club. I'm simply trying to look at things from different perspective so that we can have actual debate and deep thinking here, as opposed to recycling the same old fears and rants over and over again. 

I have to be honest, Shiroi.  I don't think you joined the "Bioware can do no wrong club", I think you are its founding member.  That's not meant to be an insult, so please don't take it as such.  But whenever someone has even the slightest criticism of anything BiowarEA does, you swoop down from nowhere and explain at length why that person is so terribly wrong. 

Just my two cents.  Take it or leave it.

[Master Shiori]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
In case some of you may have started to wonder; no, I haven't joined the "Bioware is so awesome they can do no wrong!" club. I'm simply trying to look at things from different perspective so that we can have actual debate and deep thinking here, as opposed to recycling the same old fears and rants over and over again. 

I have to be honest, Shiroi.  I don't think you joined the "Bioware can do no wrong club", I think you are its founding member.  That's not meant to be an insult, so please don't take it as such.  But whenever someone has even the slightest criticism of anything BiowarEA does, you swoop down from nowhere and explain at length why that person is so terribly wrong. 

Just my two cents.  Take it or leave it.

Since opinions are neither "right" nor "wrong", I can't convice someone otherwise nor is that what I'm trying to do.
All I can do is maybe offer a different perspective on the subject at hand.

But if you do want to read a few of my posts that would be more up your alley, feel free to dig through the first 300 pages or so. Trust me, I've made quite a number of those over the last year.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 10 février 2011 - 01:02 .