All right, a suitably epic post incoming:
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well, it's an interesting parallel I suppose - there's surely a tiny fraction of players that sent him off with the templars right at the beginning of Awakening and will put on a crocodile tears showing of how said event isn't respecting their choice, blahblah... Which we can liken to the US/DR debacle. If they're bringing him back and describing Justice as his friend they're effectively canonising/assuming a certain choice in Awakening. So, you have an intelligent choice of ignoring the idiotic route of offing/firing your companions but the questionable tactic of we're bringing them back because we feel there's more to explore... but there's only "more to explore" because they've made a particular change to the character (possibly offscreen?) So yeah Brock, I'd expect a similar device to be used for Morrigan (to which I would share your disgust), likely in part to justify interaction with a new PC. On the surface it's a lazy approach but I'll wait till I play to properly judge its implementation.[/quote]
Yeah, I'd imagine that at least in part they'd have some telemetry data on that sort of thing. But it makes me wonder how many other retcons we'll see in DA2. Judging by some of Gaider's recent comments, it really seems that any and all of the epilogues are fair game for being tossed out the window. Which considering WH and how Morrigan should have been in Orlais, I guess isn't too surprising. Although it is disappointing considering the epilogues were really the only semblance of consequence to the choices you made in Origins.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I remember there was a lot of complaining with Metal Gear Solid 2 having a separate protagonist for the second half, now they've essentially closed Snake's story in MGS4, it's not as much of an issue to bring in new leads for spin-off titles etc. When you introduce new cliffhangers and plot twists in your closing moments and apparently "closing" DLCs its a different matter. Though I've said before I'd be satisfied just seing a certain person on-screen in key scenes, its the lazy codex/slight dialogue variation approach that irks me.[/quote]
Right- so long as certain plots get closure eventually and in a matter fitting the choices you made, I'm fine if Hawke gets center stage in DA2. But as has been said a billion times now, its all how they deal with Morrigan and the Warden and those choices, for me. If its lazy codex entries or handwaving....meh.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
My primary objection to the NWN route is Aribeth moments, haphazard redefining of character traits/memories to suit a contrived plot purpose and the roleplaying disconnect in cumulative player knowledge versus player character knowledge. Now to those that only care about embedding their swordstaff into the face of the nearest foe
yesterday, such trivialities are hardly a concern but for me its a pretty jarring disconnect when returning characters are done in a one size fits all manner. This of course centers on Morri and imo there's more than enough evidence (both old and recent) to suggest that the important facets of her and her plotline (and those involved in it) will be handled in a less than optimal fashion - ranging from Brock's examples above or BioWare's apparent disinclination to develop content that X% might not see. As I've said before though, BioWare chose to adopt an allegedly no-canon framework for DA and in doing so neither side of the choice / consequence should not be limited/held back by its counterpart because some people "might not" have done X. If that's the approach/attitude combination that BioWare goes with you will never see far reaching consequences in this series (and you probably won't anyway because its apparently a cardinal sin to develop content that some players might not see...)[/quote]
Good point on Aribeth- really, thats likely the sort of thing we'd see with Morrigan should we have a new PC whenever she returns. Just thrust some drastic change on her, not unlike Anders 2.0, to try and make it seem like character development when often you might as well have just made a new character.
The curious thing, is that apparently in DA2 depending on your class, that determines whether Bethany or Carver survives the intro. Which would seem to be a nice diverging choice (albeit more like Plot Hammer than a choice). And they 've said DA2 is their most "reactive" game yet. To me, that would mean having exclusive content based on your choices.
I just think back to New Vegas and how much exclusive content is there. And even if I never ally with Mr House or the Legion or the NCR and stick with Yes Man, you still realize how much content is there and you can plainly see that those other factions are entirely fleshed out and viable options. The game is giving you actual choices in how to approach things, as opposed to many BioWare games which only give you the illusion of choice and next to zero consequence.
It just boils down for me that I'd much rather see BioWare games that perhaps sacrifice some of the AAA bloat like a voiced PC or even go back to an Infinity engine look if it meant having a wider array of choices and more importantly consequences. And the OGB/Morri/DR plot seems ideal for radically diverging consequences.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Not using the Morrigan plotline in DA3 is more or less overplaying their hand and trying to give too large a scope to the story before providing adequate development to the overarching plot. As it stands now, I don't think it has a lifeline beyond that of DA3 because new questions and plotlines will come to the fore. You need to react to the choice while the playerbase is still invested in it and if the belated reaction is underwhelming then I think a fair few will be under no illusion as the real extent of choice/consequence in DA. [/quote]
Yeah, if they don't bring back Morrigan and the OGB in DA3, then if they ever did resolve that plot, they'd likely opt for some radical change in Morrigan or something, as new players wouldn't know what the heck was going on. Not to mention, if they want to bother with save imports, eventually there will be new consoles out- probably within the next 5 years I'd guess. And if they take another 2 years for DA3, but don't put Morrigan in it, then DA4 would be another 2+ years after that? Yeah, its DA3 or bust for any meaningful Morrigan action I think.
Unless they just stick her in some dorky expack or DLC. Guh.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I pretty much agree with you Brock and I've noted before how BioWare have a tendency to follow up a stellar title with something that's a bit... meh. While I can't say I'm completely turned off by all the changes I've seen in recent vids (so long as I mute Laidlaw's commentary) a good deal of it does seem to be changes to facilitate instant gratification and supplant the OMG Shepard is so badass fascination onto the DA experience. I suspect one of the driving factors is such an experience better lends itself to DLC than its forebear. [/quote]
Yeah, they've already said all the DA2 DLC will feature Hawke in forgotten episodes and such from within the 10 year framed narrative. Which barring something Morrigan related, I most definitely won't pick up any DA2 DLC. At this point after DA2, unless they show some Morrigan/OGB stuff, DA is going on the backburner I think. Most of my issues with DA2 stem from trying to look like an action game and *look* like ME style cinematics, which on a technical level, I don't think DA holds up to that level of scrutiny.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
After New Vegas, I'm very interested in seeing what Obsidian can do next, really wasn't expecting that game to so good, it captured the proper feel of the old games in modern trappings and the writing and dialogue especially puts Beth's work on ES & F3 to shame and I expect could easily give BioWare a run for their money.[/quote]
I really hope Obsidian gets some more opportunities to keep doing Fallout games- NV was easily my favorite RPG of the year last year and it was what I had hoped Fallout 3 would have been. And Skyrim looks great, albeit I'm skeptical of Bethesda's writing and such- but visually it looks more like what I would have hoped DA2 would have turned towards.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
... Fallout 3 & Dragon Age immediately made it clear what set wrpgs apart from the rest - it put you in the lead role (as opposed to the directors chair) and married that with choice and consequence. Adding a voice to the mix just ejects me from the experience, though evidently many seem to think that watching the game play out for you is immersive... [/quote]
Yeah, even though I enjoyed ME and ME2, it wasn't due to Shepard. If anything that divests me of a major sense of agency and I just feel like some creepy voyeaur whispering in Shepard's ear, not actually "being" Shepard. I have no problem with some games being that way, but when every single BioWare game adopts that detached 3rd person POV on storytelling, thats really disappointing.Its hard for me to work up any emotional engagement in a fixed PC like Shep or Hawke and that lack of caring is only amplified when it comes to the companions though too.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
You know its like Amnesia (thanks for mentioning it constantly btw, completed recently and it was definitely worth the time) - you'll notice you'll get people whining about how its not scary, etc and imo its because the game has to be played a specific way - you have to be able to make that leap if you want to get the full experience and I think its the same deal with silent protagonists - if the player doesn't get the function of that design decision then they see only a failing. [/quote]
Right, I mean, people that don't "get" Amnesia are the ones likely playing in daylight with their buddies around while they have their Itunes rolling or something. Not like its meant to be played (and even prompts you to play) with headphones on, lights off and all alone. Its like people saying that teh Warden was mute- and thats a big misnomer when people say "silent PC" really. Gordon Freeman is a silent PC; the Warden was simply an unvoiced PC- he spoke just fine in my game.
And I'm not opposed to a voiced PC necessarily, its just that until you can give me the same freeedom and sense of agency I have with a PC like the Warden or Bhaalspawn, then I'm going to feel like I'm simply directing a boring NPC through the game and not a PC of my own creation.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Then the OGB will not exist due to some import bug nutting up the game.
[/quote]
^This, this so much. I can picture it now, somehow the stars will have aligned, BioWare will have made a really decent warden-inclusive tie in with the Morri/OGB plot line to close things off nicely but as with all things Morrigan (which I'm convinced is a running joke in the BioWare offices) it won't trigger, due to a bug in DA2. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie][/quote]
Yeah, we should have an over/under on how many things will be botched on the import from DAO to DA2. I'm guessing my DW Warrior Cousland who romanced Morrigan will suddenly turn into a female dwarven commoner who romanced Zevran and did the US. What continuity!
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I too believe Ximena will be our saviour in this long running saga of misery [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]. And Brock, how did you manage to get hold of the DA3 design docs? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie][/quote]
Sad thing is, from yesterday there was a panel at DICE 2011 where I think Zeschuk was saying how
CityVille is the wave of the future in gaming. Oh gawd...
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The first time they mess it up with a lacklustre showing or throwing continuity to the wind, I'm out. As a romance interest, party member and apparent world-changing companion who the player can end the game with I have certain expectations as to what I want to see when Morri returns. [/quote]
Amen. As has been said before, if they made Origins more of a self contained story with respect to Morrigan and the Warden, I'd be more willing to move on to new heroes every game. The prospect of having certain plots spread across the series is interesting, but only if they cash in on the emotional engagement that made those plots worth holding on to in the first place. And for me, thats not only bringing Morrigan back, but also the Warden.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I've thought of that before but the problem with that is you'd have a kind of but thou must scenario which essentially eliminates the "big choice" from Origins because the outcome would have been the same. At the time I felt that the DR sequence didn't offer adequate dialogue choices to explore the issues that I wanted to broach. Also of equal importance was there was no justifiable reason given why a morri-romancing warden could not leave with her/follow shortly after her. Her dialogue might fit fine if you shunned her throughout the game, but in context of a friend or especially romantically involved warden it comes across as "I'm leaving, you can't follow/ask why/do anything about it because the writers say so." If you're aiming for bittersweet there has to be grounding for it in the plot and dialogue, and Flemeth-esque meandering around said issue doesn't provide it. I would probably have allowed the player to leave with her (assuming we were going with the new PC approach) and had the expansion/DLCs focus on a mini-series of events that'd lead into DA2. Then, at whatever point Morrigan reappeared, you simple stick the warden placeholder in the scene, continuity acheived. As it stands though, they have perpetuated the idea that the warden(s) could still have a part to play in the future and not just those who romanced Morrigan.[/quote]
Bingo, Terra.
As we've gone over endlessly, and Barbarossa in particular (
), the problems with the DR scene stems from the lack of adequate RP and dialogue choices. Or what decent dialogue is there is hidden down bizarre paths. Witch Hunt fixed this to some extent in that it let you leave with Morrigan, but did nothing to even remotely answer any question like as to why the Warden couldn't have just followed Morrigan after Origins in the first place?
The problem in part is that if you take the DR, it doesn't feel like the whole Blight storyline is really over though, as you're still left with Urthemiel, and you're not given answers to any questions as to what the heck could come of that decision. The DR option was a twist that simply came out of no where at the end of the game when I was getting ready to simply deal with the AD and that was it. It would be like if they threw some twist in at the end of Throne of Bhaal- ToB worked as a conclusion to the Bhaalspawn story because it dealt with what everything was building up to (your divine heritage) and simply left you with choice, no trickery or anything. So when you finished that and the epilogue rolled, you didn't have any lingering questions or plots dangling. You had closure. And even though the epilogues hinted at more adventures and so on, the story felt done. So if you saw the Bhaalspawn in a cameo in some future game, that would have been cool, as I had a sense of closure with his tale. Yet with DAO and the DR, there is absolutely no closure at all there- its basically a choice you made with zero consequence or even a hint as to what that consequence may be. And the only person I want dealing with that choice and consequence is the Warden.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Agreed on WH and your thoughts on it mirror my own. It felt like stopgap closure. It serves a purpose for now, but should Morrigan turn up sans the warden in DA3 (or some codex/dialogue line variation bs) that to me renders WH useless and actively negates a player choice. If the gift thing was truly a fourth-wall breaking moment of her giving you the "Witchcraft" items then that too is beyond a joke. However if things do tie together into some kind of resolution then all's well.[/quote]
Hahaha, oh man, I hadn't even thought of the gift Morrigan gives as being something as corny as the bonus items for finishing the DLC. Sadly, thats probably exactly what that dialogue was supposed to mean.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
True enough on Anders still face wise seeming to look like Anders. Although- and maybe its just the camera angles in the screens available- he seems to suffer from DA2 massive jaw/chin syndrome. It gives me a little faith they wouldn't goof up Morrigan's face in some hypothetical new DA game, but time will tell.
[/quote]
Screw that, this is the Morrigan Discussion & Research (and thinly veiled DA series pessimism thread).[/quote]
You know what though? I take all that back about them not screwing up Anders' face. If you
watch this video, his DA2 face is indeed different structure wise as compared to Awakening Anders. It just looks like they messed up his eyes and his chin is all narrow and his face too gaunt. Then again, I'm finding most faces in Da2 look strange and Botoxed up or something. Lord help BioWare if they screw up Morrigan's eyes and The Glare.
Although, seeing as the plastic surgery they gave Isabela for DA2, I wouldn't doubt if Morrigan were to come back with massive magical implants , all T&A and even less clothing- and of course it will be hand waved away as "Oh, she is a shapeshifter after all!":lol:
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Makes no difference whatsoever to me as the third person full VO approach masquerading as first person kills it for me. If we're to look forward to "But the priiize" moments courtesy of our esteemed VO talent I'll pass. I think VO romances can work if they're defined as mandatory in the plot, when you've trying to make Hawke a be-everything type and the romances are optional it falls flat as with Shepard.[/quote]
True enough- the romances are usually one of my more favorite features in BioWare games, but in ME and ME2 they just feel creepy and voyeuristic. And cringe worthy when Shep tries to emote.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
As an aside I'm still not putting it past BioWare to use the Eluvian as a Unreal Tourney insta-gib for the warden.
[/quote]
I almost fully expect them to cook up something like that for the Warden- either he gets insta-gibbed, or otherwise dies in the Eluvian. Doesn't matter how, just that he does. This way you can pull the FLemeth card, of Morrigan having love and lost and in turn somehow feeling betrayed by losing her loved one and turning into Big Bad Mean Morrigan. Oh! Whats this? If you stabbed Morrigan, you can have her be Big Bad Mean Morrigan too! And then since it will be a new PC likely anyway, just have all DA3 Morrigans be Big Bad Mean Morrigan! Problem solved!<_<
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
I remember that in Origins, Morrigan had a
discussion with Wynne about how she would not be opposed to binding a
spirit to her service, provided she was the master in such a deal. Maybe
Gaider plans to do something along those lines? [/quote]
Yeah I recall that banter, but I don't know how serious Morrigan was being in it, more like mocking Wynne:
[quote]
Morrigan: Have you given thought to, perhaps, prolonging your life by forcing another spirit into your service? (VO note: She already knows the answer to this question, and seeks only to taunt Wynne by asking her this)
Wynne: Of course not.
Morrigan: I would. Of course, I am still young, beautiful, and my life is my own while you are bound to that Circle. (VO note: Taunting, mocking)
Morrigan: Hmm. I wonder why I asked. It would be a silly thing, prolonging your life. A waste. (VO note: Taunting)
Wynne: Think what you will, Morrigan. When the end comes, I will go gladly to my rest, proud of my achievements.
Wynne: While, you... you will see how empty your life was. You will realize that because you never had love for others, you never received love in return. And you will die alone and unmourned. (VO note: Quietly)
Morrigan: You speak of meaningless things. I need no one to mourn me, old woman. (VO note: amused, taunting)
Wynne: More's the pity.
[/quote]
I just have a hard time picturing why a mage like Morrigan that values freedom and independence would bind herself to a spirit or demon willfully. Especially knowing what Flemeth is or has become- I could see them doing something like that with Morrigan to have her pride maybe get the best of her, but I don't think she'd willfully do something like that. Which is why I don't quite get why they did the whole Justice/Anders thing- I can't rally see Anders doing something like that.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Hmm, there's an idea. How exactly would "Unreal Tournament instant gib" work in DA? [/quote]
Probably more like walking bomb:P
Modifié par Brockololly, 11 février 2011 - 11:27 .
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