16183 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

Anybody else getting a Klingon vibe from the forehead ridges?

[LTS_Guitarian]

Just thought I drop this in here in case anyone wanted to see it.  It's more art from Elyssa that she did for me.


http://darkhope.cjb..../file.php?id=22

It's set in my fanfic universe and takes place roughly three years after the end of Origins. It's The Warden (Dwemer) and Morrigan celebrating their first anniversary.
And the bulge on Morrigan's belly is kid#2 on the way. She's about 4 months in at the time this takes place.

I just thought you guys might like this. I know I did. 
Right click and choose View Image to see the full size version.

Modifié par LTS_Guitarian, 17 février 2011 - 10:42 .

[Swoo]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Anybody else getting a Klingon vibe from the forehead ridges?

My first thought as well. No, wait, that's a lie. My first thought was 'That is horrible!', then Klingon.

[Grendenhal]

Apologies for what is pobably old, tired news to almost all of you.  I just started on DAO for a second playthrough and have seen some interesting tidbits.  In order of importance and reverse chronology:

1.  I was fascinated by the "Ring" dialogue.  The first time through I think I felt compelled to be polite and just say thank you.  This time, I asked "What else does it do"?  I was surprised to find that it's fully two-way telepathic -- the Warden is just as able to track Morrigan as she is him.  I had always assumed, as the Warden tells Ariane in WH, that Morrigan is far too independent to ever allow herself to be tracked. 

Somehow I found this profoundly annoying.  It raises questions such as:  Why didn't the Warden track her immediately at the end of DAO, before she was out of range?  Why couldn't he track her once she came back to Ferelden?  Why could she sense the Warden coming in WH but he couldn't sense her?  Why didn't he know that Morrigan wasn't in Flemeth's Hut?

2.  Morrigan is quite the woman of, er, easy virtue.  For fun I went straight to camp after Morrigan joined at Flemeth's Hut, before heading to Lothering.  I didn't give her any gifts -- I don't think there are any before Lothering,  But merely by having all the available conversations and telling what she wanted to hear, she had me in her tent before leaving camp.  True, it was more fulfilling the first playthrough to say what I thought and let the relationship develop more naturally, albeit uneasily, over time.  I felt like a **** agreeing with all the "War of All Against All -- Nature Red In Tooth And Claw -- Only The Strong Survive -- Renounce Love" B.S.  But it was still funny that the relationship could flower that early before the game has even really started.

3.  I had forgotten that she tells the Warden "I like you" the first time they meet at the Warden's cache.

[Brockololly]

LTS_Guitarian wrote...

Just thought I drop this in here in case anyone wanted to see it.  It's more art from Elyssa that she did for me.
*snip*

Very nice!

Grendenhal wrote...
1.  I was fascinated by the "Ring" dialogue. 

Yeah, we speculated much on this after Origins and all. I think its left somewhat vague by Morrigan as to whether or not one could actually use it to track her down or work both ways. SHe can certainly use it on the Warden, but she didn't seem confident that it could be used to track her. Or even if it can, who is to say that the Warden would know how to use it that way?

Grendenhal wrote...
2.  Morrigan is quite the woman of, er, easy virtue. 

Oh yeah, I recall plenty of people after Origins came out saying how lame Morrigan's romance was since they just rushed through all of her dialogue right at Lothering and slept with her right away. Never mind that sleeping with Morrigan is really only the first part of the romance really.




Oh, and about Klingon Dragon God Baby on the last page- having just finished reading  A Game of Thrones (finally!) that sort of reminded me of Daenerys Targaryen's stillborn child, Rhaego- in how it was described as being all draconic looking in the book.

Probably reaching here, but does anyone else see some similarities between Daenerys Targaryen and Morrigan? Both have sort of unatural eye color and seem to have some sort of destiny that will have a big impact in their worlds. And you've got Daenerys' dragons and well, Morrigan has the OGB, who maybe has dragon like powers or something.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 février 2011 - 07:54 .

[Swoo]

Brockololly wrote...

Probably reaching here, but does anyone else see some similarities between Daenerys Targaryen and Morrigan? Both have sort of unatural eye color and seem to have some sort of destiny that will have a big impact in their worlds. And you've got Daenerys' dragons and well, Morrigan has the OGB, who maybe has dragon like powers or something.

Oh, Game of Thrones was leaned heavily on for Origins creation, it's very apparent. In fact, I don't think they ever hid that fact. Not damning them here, I'm sure everything can be traced back to something else, so it's almost always in how you tell it.

My first thought were the Mabari in the Cousland Origin and how they were soooo the Origins parallel to the Stark's Direwolves.

I think the Daenery's and the whole Mother of Dragons angle is interesting as I've had the somewhat crazy theory ever since finding the book on Dragon Cults in Denerim (and Morrigan's reaction, or non-reaction to an organized religion, towards the Cultists) has me thinking that they are tied into the Cults in some way, shape, or form, and with the DR, Morrigan is literally a Mother of a Dragon

For all my reservations of the new direction in DA2, I am looking forward to it for Flemeth alone. All the theories we've come up with, I'm interested to see if we've penned novels between the lines that aren't there or if something interesting really is shaping up.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...
Oh, Game of Thrones was leaned heavily on for Origins creation, it's very apparent. In fact, I don't think they ever hid that fact. Not damning them here, I'm sure everything can be traced back to something else, so it's almost always in how you tell it.

My first thought were the Mabari in the Cousland Origin and how they were soooo the Origins parallel to the Stark's Direwolves.

I think the Daenery's and the whole Mother of Dragons angle is interesting as I've had the somewhat crazy theory ever since finding the book on Dragon Cults in Denerim (and Morrigan's reaction, or non-reaction to an organized religion, towards the Cultists) has me thinking that they are tied into the Cults in some way, shape, or form, and with the DR, Morrigan is literally a Mother of a Dragon

For all my reservations of the new direction in DA2, I am looking forward to it for Flemeth alone. All the theories we've come up with, I'm interested to see if we've penned novels between the lines that aren't there or if something interesting really is shaping up.

Oh, most definitely. I mean, the whole Night's Watch = Grey Wardens. Group of warriors who take serious vows to defend the realm from a long forgotten evil that no one believes in anymore, taking in anyone from nobles to criminals.

And about Morrigan and teh Dragon Cults, at least in Witch Hunt, I'm more of the thinking that those dragon cultists weren't Morrigan's lackies or anything but that Morrigan probably just snuck in there on her own. Or, maybe the Dragon Cultist people just sort of recognized Morrigan as having some sort of connection to the dragons and sort of protected her from the Warden and companions, without her really caring what they did? I just have a hard time seeing Morrigan as being much of a leader or championing some broad cause. Maybe whatever she is up to has broad implications for everyone else, but I don't think she'd be doing whatever it is she is doing if the primary concern wasn't herself or those directly around her, like maybe the Warden or OGB.

Thats sort of why I'm skeptical of Anders 2.0, as in Awakening he never liked the Chantry but mostly just wanted them to leave him alone and leave him be. While in DA2 it would seem they've made him into some crusader against the Chantry, fighting for the freedom of all mages. Having that sort of character development is fine, so long as they explain it and show it and don't just wave their hands and present us with a new Anders right from the start. The same would be true with changes to Morrigan- although, with the Warden there in Eluvian land, changes to Morrigan would have to deal with the Warden PC too.


Much like Awakening though, I'm guessing all of our theories about Flemeth and Morrigan and DA2 won't amount to much in the actual game. I hope I'm wrong though:wizard:

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 février 2011 - 10:24 .

[Glorfindel709]

Brockololly wrote...


Thats sort of why I'm skeptical of Anders 2.0, as in Awakening he never liked the Chantry but mostly just wanted them to leave him alone and leave him be. While in DA2 it would seem they've made him into some crusader against the Chantry, fighting for the freedom of all mages.

I agree completely, infact if you have Anders with you when you meet Wynne in Amaranthine, he'll say something to the effect of it being insane for the College of Magi to be considering a split from the Chantry. He wanted personal freedom for himself, but it was always Justice who was championing the plight of the Mages. I think Justice twisted Anders more than the other way around, if you ask me. Justice was changed by the underlying resentment of Anders' treatment, but Justice is the one who wanted to extend it to all Mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
I just have a hard time seeing Morrigan as being much of a leader or championing some broad cause. Maybe whatever she is up to has broad implications for everyone else, but I don't think she'd be doing whatever it is she is doing if the primary concern wasn't herself or those directly around her, like maybe the Warden or OGB.

Agreed. If there is a cause that does necessitate a leader, I think she'd leave it to the OGB, if applicable. At least I hope some of his training will be about things lke that, but that's why I went to the mirror in the first place.  She does say that the OGB is "the herald of what's to come", which seems to imply that the OGB could play a very important role (but apparently not a necessary role since sadly the DR is not canonical).

But we have to remember what she said: "What I want...is not important now".
So I do not think she is doing all this for herself, I think she believes that what she is doing is necessary for whatever it is this "Change" means, or possibly to bring about the change herself.

And that's what I love about her. That she realizes that there are things more important than love and her own happiness. And while she is far from denying her feelings, she perseveres and moves on.  

[Terra_Ex]

I'm behind on my Morri thread posts so from where I left off... a wall of text (nice Morri pic spam on recent pages btw [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] )

[quote]Swoo wrote...
No, I loved XenoGears and am sure I never spoke ill about it. XenoSaga on the other hand I quit playing because I became so bored watching cutscene after cutscene it felt like I literally would have one combat then have to put the controller down for ten minutes. I wanted to keep playing it but sometimes being able to say 'we have five hours of cutscenes in our games' is not a good thing whatsoever.
[/quote]
You have impeccable taste in games Swoo. You've sent me into a bit of nostalgia spiral by bringing up XenoGears, such an awesome game... I can see your point on Saga, it does have a fair bit of down time where you're sat around watching stuff happen... slowly. Being a fan of Metal Gear, I was well versed in that approach so it didn't bother me too much. Now it's becoming more prolific in games in general my attitude is shifting somewhat.  XS3 does wrap things up nicely though if you ever fancy finishing the series, plus there's a sort of cameo boss fights with Fei's Weltall gear & Id's gear.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I'd imagine that at least in part they'd have some telemetry data on that sort of thing. But it makes me wonder how many other retcons we'll see in DA2. Judging by some of Gaider's recent comments, it really seems that any and all of the epilogues are fair game for being tossed out the window. Which considering WH and how Morrigan should have been in Orlais, I guess isn't too surprising. Although it is disappointing considering the epilogues were really the only semblance of consequence to the choices you made in Origins.[/quote]
With the epilogues, by and large I'm not seeing a major issue. As I recall it, the Awakening epilogues (and the Origins ones) are non-specific about timing, thus enabling you to have your companion/choice specific fantasy of travelling with XYZ or w/e floats your boat for an unspecified time. Then the warden disappearance slide (taking place at some point after WH) is a cover-all to draw all back into one commonality, again at an unspecified time.

There are some exceptions though, like Morrigan's outing in the Empress court seems totally redundant now, but I suppose they could explain that away easily enough - ie: she was there setting some unknown foundation for a future plan in motion. In all honesty I wouldn't be surprised to see Morri return in Orlais actually to salvage some of that plot and continue on from whatever happens in DA2, but that's probably setting the expectation/hope bar a little high.

Didn't the Awakening epilogues already supplant much of the Origins material with new stuff/embellishments anyway?


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Good point on Aribeth- really, thats likely the sort of thing we'd see with Morrigan should we have a new PC whenever she returns. Just thrust some drastic change on her, not unlike Anders 2.0, to try and make it seem like character development when often you might as well have just made a new character.
[/quote]
You see, that's one of things I didn't like about the DR's presentation in the closing moments. I got the feeling (likely due to the cuts applied to that scene) that the devs wanted to "force" a very specific Morrigan on the player during that scene, it feels kind of like all the friendship/romance stuff you'd accomplished up to that point has little impact because despite having a build up to some kind of emotional turmoil (the selfish bastard conversation, the Revelation comic, etc) nothing of it appears on screen, you just get offered the DR out of the blue and Morrigan barely bats an eyelid. It works against Morrigan as a developing character really and it's just such a stupid place to apply cuts when you know you're going to bring the character back.

With Morrigan, I don't see a reason for any kind of change - she has a goal in mind, her mind is set on it. There's no need/demand for a change as I see it.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
The curious thing, is that apparently in DA2 depending on your class, that determines whether Bethany or Carver survives the intro. Which would seem to be a nice diverging choice (albeit more like Plot Hammer than a choice). And they 've said DA2 is their most "reactive" game yet. To me, that would mean having exclusive content based on your choices.

I just think back to New Vegas and how much exclusive content is there. And even if I never ally with Mr House or the Legion or the NCR and stick with Yes Man, you still realize how much content is there and you can plainly see that those other factions are entirely fleshed out and viable options. The game is giving you actual choices in how to approach things, as opposed to many BioWare games which only give you the illusion of choice and next to zero consequence.
[/quote]
Oh yeah, they throw out all kinds of buzzwords all the time. Indeed, there does seem to be divergence there (though the reasoning behind that particular example is a bit odd) which is promising I suppose. But to the point - I'm most interested in seeing divergence that begins in one game and continues into another (whilst still being resolved in a befitting manner.) That's harder to achieve but arguably more effective when it's actually pulled off.

And yes, illusion of choice is a forte of BioWare, sadly, whether it be choices cancelling themselves out or plot hammer moments designed to enforce something. On New Vegas, I felt Caesar's Legion obviously felt some cuts during development, it was a great concept that wasn't as fully realised as I'd have liked[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie].

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
It just boils down for me that I'd much rather see BioWare games that perhaps sacrifice some of the AAA bloat like a voiced PC or even go back to an Infinity engine look if it meant having a wider array of choices and more importantly consequences. And the OGB/Morri/DR plot seems ideal for radically diverging consequences.
[/quote]
Absolutely, my preference would be to do what many other games do/did to great effect - only voice selected stuff/key scenes. Writers are then free to add lots of additional dialogue without the expense of it being voiced. What I saw in recent gameplay videos seemed a little... stinted tbh, though I'll say no more for now[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie].

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Unless they just stick her in some dorky expack or DLC. Guh.
[/quote]
Don't tempt fate Brock, the Morri fandom is on thin ice as it is.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, they've already said all the DA2 DLC will feature Hawke in forgotten episodes and such from within the 10 year framed narrative. Which barring something Morrigan related, I most definitely won't pick up any DA2 DLC. At this point after DA2, unless they show some Morrigan/OGB stuff, DA is going on the backburner I think. Most of my issues with DA2 stem from trying to look like an action game and *look* like ME style cinematics, which on a technical level, I don't think DA holds up to that level of scrutiny.
[/quote]
Well based on how the Origins DLC went I'll doubt we'll be missing much by passing on DA2's little episodic offerings, it's hardly Rockstar levels of effort - where they actually make a genuine expansion pack. I hold the cinematic styling and full VO in equal contempt as they slowly whittle away resources that could be put into actual game content.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, even though I enjoyed ME and ME2, it wasn't due to Shepard. If anything that divests me of a major sense of agency and I just feel like some creepy voyeaur whispering in Shepard's ear, not actually "being" Shepard. I have no problem with some games being that way, but when every single BioWare game adopts that detached 3rd person POV on storytelling, thats really disappointing. Its hard for me to work up any emotional engagement in a fixed PC like Shep or Hawke and that lack of caring is only amplified when it comes to the companions though too.
[/quote]
Yeah, it's pretty much the same for me. As we've said before I'd rather see two series excelling on their own relative strengths and merits rather than cross-pollinating the two.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
As we've gone over endlessly, and Barbarossa in particular, the problems with the DR scene stems from the lack of adequate RP and dialogue choices. Or what decent dialogue is there is hidden down bizarre paths. Witch Hunt fixed this to some extent in that it let you leave with Morrigan, but did nothing to even remotely answer any question like as to why the Warden couldn't have just followed Morrigan after Origins in the first place?[/quote]
Barbarossa's post are certainly pure gold [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Instead of just saying no trace of Morrigan could be found in Orlais, it'd be better if say a warden that followed her got to question what exactly she was doing there in the first place and what prompted her to return - give some justification toward her choice to disappear in the aftermath of the DR, it could have even tied in with the sorrow/regret slide.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
The problem in part is that if you take the DR, it doesn't feel like the whole Blight storyline is really over though, as you're still left with Urthemiel, and you're not given answers to any questions as to what the heck could come of that decision. The DR option was a twist that simply came out of no where at the end of the game when I was getting ready to simply deal with the AD and that was it. It would be like if they threw some twist in at the end of Throne of Bhaal- ToB worked as a conclusion to the Bhaalspawn story because it dealt with what everything was building up to (your divine heritage) and simply left you with choice, no trickery or anything. So when you finished that and the epilogue rolled, you didn't have any lingering questions or plots dangling. You had closure. And even though the epilogues hinted at more adventures and so on, the story felt done. So if you saw the Bhaalspawn in a cameo in some future game, that would have been cool, as I had a sense of closure with his tale. Yet with DAO and the DR, there is absolutely no closure at all there- its basically a choice you made with zero consequence or even a hint as to what that consequence may be. And the only person I want dealing with that choice and consequence is the Warden.
[/quote]
ToB was indeed a great wrap up to the Bhaalspawn saga, though for me only with the Ascension mod did have the impact I sought, the vanilla finale was lacking imo. With DA, it appears to be more ambitious with the "no canon" and all these various plot threads remaining unresolved, but as you state it only works as a satisfying ensemble if each of these threads has a logical conclusion that is inclusive of and highly reactive to player choice, anything less just ends up being extremely deflating. The alternative would have been to canonise certain events to ensure a strong storyline without potential compromises. 

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Hahaha, oh man, I hadn't even thought of the gift Morrigan gives as being something as corny as the bonus items for finishing the DLC. Sadly, thats probably exactly what that dialogue was supposed to mean.
[/quote]
Well, that one affects the non-romancers too and ending on that note with nothing further would be pretty pathetic. This question does pop up quite often and they are clearly books (which presumably pertain to Flemeth/wardens/both in some way.) Do you think the devs would be willing to state one way or the other though? I'll retain the small threads of hope for now and grumble about related matters.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Although, seeing as the plastic surgery they gave Isabela for DA2, I wouldn't doubt if Morrigan were to come back with massive magical implants , all T&A and even less clothing- and of course it will be hand waved away as "Oh, she is a shapeshifter after all!"
[/quote]
I want to like Isabela, I really do, but those Mass Effect camera shots are clearly back with a vengeance for DA2. And regarding the shapeshifters, you're probably right.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I almost fully expect them to cook up something like that for the Warden- either he gets insta-gibbed, or otherwise dies in the Eluvian. Doesn't matter how, just that he does
[/quote]
I'm glad you noted that part Brock, it is a gotcha waiting to strike after all[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]. If they're feeling particularly adventurous they may even tie it in with the story you referenced where Leliana tells you about how Flemeth steals your beauty. Failing that, falling rocks are undoubtedly positioned immediately outside all Eluvians in Thedas[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]. The desire demon ending is looking like a pretty sweet deal now, right

[quote]Grendenhal wrote...
Just played Leliana's Song. Now THAT was a DLC. It filled in an important DAO backstory in a way that was true to Leliana's character and gave added depth and richness to DAO itself. And it made me want to go back and kill Marjolaine again!
[/quote]
It was fairly good if you could ignore the retconning which BioWare tried to explain away, nothing extra there that couldn't be inferred from her tale in Origins though.


[quote]Grendenhal wrote...
Why couldn't WH have done the same thing? A few hours following Morrigan around either after she left or even in her earlier days in the Wilds would have been really nice, instead of chasing silly plots around Ferelden with uninspiring and annoying new companions just for five minutes of uninformative conversation with her at the end.`.
[/quote]
Nah, they kinda had to address the Morri/Warden thing, we (as a collective) were getting pretty damn p*ssed at the time (and we're still quick to anger now at the first sign of bs). Of course, unless they do something with those WH choices, the entire thing is useless imo. I don't think a DLC with Morrigan as the protagonist would have worked for reasons we've gone over many times before.

[quote]Grendenhal wrote...
Of course, the ideal remains a continuation of the Warden/Morrigan romance.  But if we couldn't have that (except in what was essentially a five-minute epilogue), I would have rather had something like Leliana's Song in which we at least got to spend quality time with Morrigan learning interesting things about her.

We're all in this forum because we prefer Morrigan, but there are plenty elsewhere who prefer Leliana.  As someone who preferred Morrigan but still enjoyed Leliana, I think Leliana's fans were much better served.  Yes, WH nominally "advanced" the Origins story, but not by much.  Morrigan fans got little better than one of Bioware's epilogue cards.  Bioware could have sent out a mass email:  "This just in:  Warden finds Morrigan 18 months later and follows her into another dimension!," and that would have been only barely less satisfying than WH.
[/quote]
I dunno, it did do a lot things right with regards to the Morri/Warden romance (and considering that got short-shrift come the DR, it was sorely needed), there was ample opportunity to explore and reaffirm said relationship in conversations with Ariane, granted everything was condensed into a short timespan. For all the b*ching we do, we could have got a lot less on that front, so I'll give them props for that at least. As for furthering the plot, it pushed it forward a fraction but essentially it just replaced/added another cliffhanger alongside new questions and if the warden's not coming back in any capacity I fail to see how that was a intelligent decision. Gaider did say a while back in an interview (that I cba to source atm) that the origins wardens) would be involved in the future. He was quickly hushed on the subject by marketing lackeys according to the text transcript as I recall though.

Back to Morri though, I took something a bit different from it than what you're describing in your first paragraph - I felt you got that exposition into Morrigan in Origins proper and due to Morrigan's demeanour that character development and the information she shares with you serves as the "quality time", it just seems to be a little deeper and more personal than what is available with the other romances - there's more personal growth there (friendship path as well) and it has ties to a larger plot thread. Which is why it's acceptable that further development and affirmation of the romance was done through dialogue with Ariane/the ring, etc. Or long story short, the romance benefits from the warden being able to discuss it with another party member after being separated from Morrigan for several months.

So, while it wasn't without its problems, from the romance perspective and the fact that the warden's eventually reunion with Morrigan would entail a difficult conversation to say the least, there are far worse things they could have done. With regard to where it's heading, I think we know it's probably not going to end well, but whatever Morri's up to I definitely want to see the warden continuing to play a part. Outside of the romance stuff, there are several criticisms I could level against WH and the rest of the Origins DLCs, but I'll simple reiterate that the damn mirror choice better have a follow up.

Back to more "manly" topics...


[quote]gurp123 wrote...
I completely agree with you, but this bittersweet cliffhanger seems to be what the devs want. It's a taunt that I just don't get, frankly. Bringing back Morrigan without the Warden will be totally unsatisfying to those who romanced her at this stage. Whereas if they truly had some closure at the end of DA or WH, then it would be fine to bring her back at some substantially later point in the story without the Warden.
[/quote]
Although me and Brock spend an unhealthy amount of time imagining worst case scenarios and whatnot, the source of the "warden can't possibly come back" is primarily individuals on the DA2 boards, Gaider and friends have dropped hints that we may at least get a bone tossed our way in the future. Not including the warden in some capacity in the Morrigan plotline does seem to run contrary to the idea that Morrigan is the most popular character (or at least misses an important aspect of her appeal), it's such an obvious thing to capitalise on BioWare would be foolish not to at least bring romancers back as an npc. I'm not entirely sure it would be fine to bring her back on her own (at least not in a way that isn't pure plot hammer, given that the Warden was given free rein to do what they want at the end of Origins, I don't think they could justifiably give true closure till the Morri plot ends ), the plot clearly stands to gain the most from having the warden character involved when it hits its apex.

[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
It just seemed like a no-brainer that we would continue on as the Warden, especially in light of a Morrigan romance and the Dark Ritual.
[/quote]
There's a word for that kind of thinking Barbarossa, something of a motto for this thread in fact

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, and as has been mentioned before, you've got to think that the people clamoring most for Morrigan's return are probably the same people whose Warden's went through the Eluvian with her and did the DR. So to possibly bring Morrigan back with the Warden not there or to have handwaved away the Warden, would defeat the purpose in my view of bringing Morrigan back. Obviously not in terms of whatever plot they might have in mind for Morrigan, but at least in terms of my own excitement and enthusiasm, there would be no quicker way to turn joy into WTF than announcing Morrigan is coming back...but without the Warden.
[/quote]
It does seem like it'd be a blunder of truly epic proportions, easily eclipsing previous BioWare staple - Aribeth syndrome. The plotline would benefit from keeping this element in play when you consider the connections of Warden/Morri/OGB/Flemeth/Hawke and I expect it would definitely please a section of the fanbase. And I concur with your assessment, the joy/WTF remark alone is worthy of being a signature banner.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Thats the problem really- we have no clue if the cliffhanger of the DR, OGB, what happened to the Warden, the Eluvian, Morrigan/Flemeth will ever be resolved. Or resolved in a meaningful way that plays off the player's choices. The problem starts in if DA2 ends on another cliffhanger or adds yet more loose ends. Cause then you know that the loose ends from Origins are less likely to be fulfilled as time goes on.
[/quote]
Agreed on all points. Aren't you supposed to make some kind of important choice at the end of DA2, according to Laidlaw's recent video/blockbuster at least. A two way split at the end of the game seems awfully reminiscent of the end of Origins...

[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
tbh, MK, I don't really mind Bioware operating under the assumption that most people recruited all the companions and going forward from there. I can understand where you're coming from, though.
[/quote]
I agree, whatever gives the most potential to advancing plot threads gets my vote.

[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
That could just the part of me that gets continually exasperated over the crocodile tears of people claiming they can't possibly continue with the story of the Warden or Morrigan (because they sent her away at Lothering and their Warden is either dead or happily married to Leliana running a muffin shop in Val Royeaux or something) talking, though, so...yeah.
[/quote]
Thankfully I don't think user idiocy or idyllic fantasies can be quantified via BioWare's telemetry system.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
On that note, Gaider commented on the whole handwaving of epilogues in this thread, responding in turn:

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
[quote]
The only thing that I'm not too keen on if all the epilogues are treated as fair game to handwaving is that in Origins/Awakening, most of the consequences for your choices came via the epilogue slides.[/quote]
[/quote]
Of course not. Like I said, not all choices carry forward, and of those  that do not all are equal. We don't deliberately set out to contradict  everything you read in the epilogues. Even rumor and hearsay has to have some truth to it. The fact that not all events didn't turn out like you'd heard doesn't suddenly render up down and black white.

[quote]
I can understand some of the more long term ones being ignored for the time  being, but even in Witch Hunt, I was a little disappointed how in every  Origins epilogue for Morrigan she heads west across the Frostbacks or  even ends up in the Orlesian court, and yet WH takes place back in  Ferelden.
[/quote]

Perhaps she did head there, and came back. Or she could head there again. Hearing rumors that Morrigan was spotted in Orlais doesn't mean that no other events could possibly have  happened.
[quote]
As long as the  explanations are decent with respect to the handwaving and it makes for a better story, thats all I can hope for... although I still want to know what all of the Wardens "vanishing" at the end of Awakening meant
[/quote]
That may indeed come up. Some things are explained, some things are not. I  think some people are always going to hold every last detail, no matter  how vague, as a sacred cow-- and thus attempts on our part to explain
aren't going to satisfy them anyhow. I don't think we're too worried about it, and I'll leave it at that.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Still tormenting Gaider, Brock? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] I commented earlier how I think the Morri plotline will eventually lead back to Orlais, possibly tying it together with DA2 through Cassandra with the Chantry plot since I believe the devs said they want her back as well in the future, so I'll add nothing else for the moment.

[quote]Axekix wrote...
Poor Morri... After an ordeal like that, she probably won't let the M.Warden near her again.
[/quote]
Ah well, the Warden was already kinda in the doghouse after she falls in love with him.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, we speculated much on this after Origins and all. I think its left somewhat vague by Morrigan as to whether or not one could actually use it to track her down or work both ways. SHe can certainly use it on the Warden, but she didn't seem confident that it could be used to track her. Or even if it can, who is to say that the Warden would know how to use it that way?
[/quote]
They implied it in Origins (a little) and one of the options in WH was that you can tell Ariane you can sense her sometimes, so it's not too much of a stretch, I guess.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]Grendenhal wrote...
    2.  Morrigan is quite the woman of, er, easy virtue. 
[/quote]

Oh yeah, I recall plenty of people after Origins came out saying how lame Morrigan's romance was since they just rushed through all of her dialogue right at Lothering and slept with her right away. Never mind that sleeping with Morrigan is really only the first part of the romance really.
[/quote]
I kind of predicted when I began Origins that dialogue exhaustion would be a possible problem so I elected to space it out myself between quests. It is a failing though, as we've discussed before a time based system or locking out dialogue progression according to progress in the major quests would have served to spread it out over the course of the game. As it stands though, I feel it's better to stagger your party conversations over the course of the game.

But you're right, it is only the beginning (well, one possible way to begin it) and the cut off Morrigan applies at love status was a nice touch, one of many that elevate it above the other romances. Probably the most satisfying path into the romance is a friendship run until the "'Tis a curious thing" conversation, then switch things up to a romance in that conversation.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
And about Morrigan and teh Dragon Cults, at least in Witch Hunt, I'm more of the thinking that those dragon cultists weren't Morrigan's lackies or anything but that Morrigan probably just snuck in there on her own. Or, maybe the Dragon Cultist people just sort of recognized Morrigan as having some sort of connection to the dragons and sort of protected her from the Warden and companions, without her really caring what they did? I just have a hard time seeing Morrigan as being much of a leader or championing some broad cause. Maybe whatever she is up to has broad implications for everyone else, but I don't think she'd be doing whatever it is she is doing if the primary concern wasn't herself or those directly around her, like maybe the Warden or OGB.[/quote]
Yeah, I doubt they're her lackies. Just one of many unknown variables at this point. Could be OGB related, or related to some kind of draconic heritage on Morrigan's part, or they could be completely unrelated to her. I think Morri's driving goal there is self-preservation (since there's the underlying cornered animal vibe with Morrigan/Flemeth) tied in with OGB + Warden if appropriate.

[Esbatty]

Man I miss this thread. I hate when work gets so damn busy and I have to, ya know, actually work on my work days and rest on my days off.



Anywho, great pictures on the previous pages. I eagerly await the arrival of the DAO figures next week from the BW store. I can finally do some DA photocomics (gotta scratch that ever present itch). So expect horrible horrible Tent Warming/Dark Ritual offers from Morrigan to pretty every available male action figure I own. You have been warned.

[Alex Kershaw]

Oh, I wondered why my Morrigan had gone back to 'friendly'...

I got both Morrigan and Leliana to 'love' early in the game, expecting to be told to choose. They told me to choose, so I chose Morrigan. Speaking to Leliana later in the game, she switched back to 'love' and I was able to go through all the 'love' dialogue with both of them. No idea how that happened... I just left the Leliana one because I expected them to ask me to choose again, but they never did . Finished the game, got both the Morrigan ring epilogue AND the Leliana adventuring epilogue... Yet when I load any of my saves (all from not long before the archdemon), Morrigan is only on 'friendly'... I assumed this was because of the two-romance thing but after reading this thread, it seems a common bug... However, how did I manage to get the ring epilogue if she was only on 'friendly'?

Imported to Awakenings and got the Leliana epilogue and not the Morrigan one  

Thought it was a lost cause as I imported to Witch Hunt (well, technically after the Golems DLC) since I'd obviously bugged it by having two romances, and I thought the game had just removed the Morrigan one by this point... But when I met Morrigan she just acted like it had been imported as 'love', even though the imported file was 'friendly'??? Then we went through the mirror...

So my post-Witch Hunt save is going through the mirror so I think it all worked alright, despite having two romances at once, importing Morrigan as 'friendly' through a bug AND not getting the awakenings epilogue? Has anyone heard of that happening?

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 19 février 2011 - 02:57 .

[Grendenhal]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Oh, I wondered why my Morrigan had gone back to 'friendly'...

I got both Morrigan and Leliana to 'love' early in the game, expecting to be told to choose. They told me to choose, so I chose Morrigan. Speaking to Leliana later in the game, she switched back to 'love' and I was able to go through all the 'love' dialogue with both of them. No idea how that happened... I just left the Leliana one because I expected them to ask me to choose again, but they never did . Finished the game, got both the Morrigan ring epilogue AND the Leliana adventuring epilogue... Yet when I load any of my saves (all from not long before the archdemon), Morrigan is only on 'friendly'... I assumed this was because of the two-romance thing but after reading this thread, it seems a common bug... However, how did I manage to get the ring epilogue if she was only on 'friendly'?

Imported to Awakenings and got the Leliana epilogue and not the Morrigan one  

Thought it was a lost cause as I imported to Witch Hunt (well, technically after the Golems DLC) since I'd obviously bugged it by having two romances, and I thought the game had just removed the Morrigan one by this point... But when I met Morrigan she just acted like it had been imported as 'love', even though the imported file was 'friendly'??? Then we went through the mirror...

So my post-Witch Hunt save is going through the mirror so I think it all worked alright, despite having two romances at once, importing Morrigan as 'friendly' through a bug AND not getting the awakenings epilogue? Has anyone heard of that happening?

Here's what I've gleaned the past few weeks:

If you didn't use Terra Ex's Morrigan Mod, then Morrigan goes to friendly after the Ritual if you talk to her about it afterwards.  But it doesn't affect your choice to go after her or whether you get the Ring epilogue.  If you use the Morrigan Mod, she'll stay at "love" at the end. 

Only if Morrigan is at "love" at the end and if you didn't go traveling with Leliana or Zevran will you get the Morrigan epilogue at the end of Awakenings.  If you didn't use the Morrigan Mod and want Morrigan at love, you either have to avoid talking to her after the Ritual or, it has been said, go to the post-epilogue camp and give her the Golden mirror to restore her to love.  That didn't work for me, though.

None of this affects whether you have the option to go through the mirror in WH.  I'm not sure if the precise conditions for that have ever been laid out.  Most probably you had to do the Ritual (or else you're dead -- can you even import a dead Warden to the DLCs?) and have romanced Morrigan, but I'm not sure there are any other requirements.

[Grendenhal]

I have a different question: I think I've screwed up my second playthrough.



I'm using the Morrigan mod. I romanced Morrigan early on, but then broke up to have a fling with Leliana. I was certain that I could rekindle the romance after killing Flemeth and giving Morrigan the grimoire. But I couldn't. All dialogue options led to friendly (including some very nice diialogue I hadn't seen before -- maybe an addition because of the Morrigan Mod.) I tried everything at approvals ranging from 70 to 100.



Any ideas? Did the Morrigan mod remove the ability to re-kindle a romance after breaking it off? Or did I just imagine that such ability ever existed? Or am I doing something wrong?

[Thor Rand Al]

Grendenhal wrote...

I have a different question: I think I've screwed up my second playthrough.

I'm using the Morrigan mod. I romanced Morrigan early on, but then broke up to have a fling with Leliana. I was certain that I could rekindle the romance after killing Flemeth and giving Morrigan the grimoire. But I couldn't. All dialogue options led to friendly (including some very nice diialogue I hadn't seen before -- maybe an addition because of the Morrigan Mod.) I tried everything at approvals ranging from 70 to 100.

Any ideas? Did the Morrigan mod remove the ability to re-kindle a romance after breaking it off? Or did I just imagine that such ability ever existed? Or am I doing something wrong?

Give Morrigan the mirror, it will set her back to love.  By the end of the game I had Lel and Morrigan at love, got the epilogue card for both and became prince-consort and that was with Terra's mod installed.  Yes my male Cousland had his cake n ate it too .


Edited:  I did the same thing you did, romanced Morrigan first, broke it off with her to be with Lel, (come on my guy didn't appreciate that slap ), anyways later right before the last visit to Highever I gave the mirror to Morrigan n it set her bk to Love. 

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 19 février 2011 - 05:52 .

[Grendenhal]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Give Morrigan the mirror, it will set her back to love.  By the end of the game I had Lel and Morrigan at love, got the epilogue card for both and became prince-consort and that was with Terra's mod installed.  Yes my male Cousland had his cake n ate it too .


Edited:  I did the same thing you did, romanced Morrigan first, broke it off with her to be with Lel, (come on my guy didn't appreciate that slap ), anyways later right before the last visit to Highever I gave the mirror to Morrigan n it set her bk to Love. 

But of course you are right.  I feel like a fool, particularly since I had just mentioned the golden mirror in my previous post.  Fortunately I had not already given it to her this go-around.  The post-game trick of using the mirror to re-set her to love didn't work for me, because I had already given it to her.

I don't remember ever getting slapped.  When does that happen?

[Thor Rand Al]

Grendenhal wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Edited:  I did the same thing you did, romanced Morrigan first, broke it off with her to be with Lel, (come on my guy didn't appreciate that slap ), anyways later right before the last visit to Highever I gave the mirror to Morrigan n it set her bk to Love. 

But of course you are right.  I feel like a fool, particularly since I had just mentioned the golden mirror in my previous post.  Fortunately I had not already given it to her this go-around.  The post-game trick of using the mirror to re-set her to love didn't work for me, because I had already given it to her.

I don't remember ever getting slapped.  When does that happen?

I'll let the pics speak for themselves . 

After telling her you don't want to end it.

[soundchaser721]

Man, its been forever since I've posted in these threads, anyway belated congrats to brock for 500 Pages! This threads the only one i feel safe in posting anymore So..... has any new info been leaked as to Morrigan's (little) involvement in DA2? After hearing that anders is coming back, I've got a bit of a renewed sense of hope in this game, cant believe its less than a month away, damn time flies.

[Grendenhal]

Thor Rand Al wrote...
I'll let the pics speak for themselves . 

After telling her you don't want to end it.

Is that where she calls you a selfish bastard?  Interesting, still don't remember being slapped, but I was trying to take the least confrontational route short of breaking it off.  

[Grendenhal]

Please forgive in advance the sappy musings of an old romantic. Does anyone know whether the Morrigan mod changed the "friendship" dialogue after the Warden kills Flemeth -- starts with "Tis a curious thing . . . ."? I almost regretted going back to "love" after that dialogue, because Morrigan clearly values friendship much more than romance. The catch in her voice at the end (Claudia Black is so damned good) was priceless.



The other thing I noticed (and hence my question about the Morrigan mod) was how clearly she hints at the coming Ritual. E.g., she'll be able to repay the Warden sooner than he expects. Her repeated suggestions that the relationship is short-lived and will involve pain for both. Taking the dialogues at face value, I'd say she's almost begging to be pressed for more information, and the Warden is unforgivably oblivious.



I continue to see an element of selflessness in her. She's trained by Flemeth to be a cold survivalist, but her background is clearly in conflict with something good in her nature.

[Swoo]

Terra_Ex wrote...
You have impeccable taste in games Swoo. You've sent me into a bit of nostalgia spiral by bringing up XenoGears, such an awesome game... I can see your point on Saga, it does have a fair bit of down time where you're sat around watching stuff happen... slowly. Being a fan of Metal Gear, I was well versed in that approach so it didn't bother me too much. Now it's becoming more prolific in games in general my attitude is shifting somewhat.  XS3 does wrap things up nicely though if you ever fancy finishing the series, plus there's a sort of cameo boss fights with Fei's Weltall gear & Id's gear.

Too many good points and room for discussion in your post Terra with how lazy I feel atm, so I'll just stick to a favorite topic of mine: Me. mememememe.

I'll see if I can get the Xeno games, I really should play them all the way through. I liked the story well enough, and the graphics and production values seemed tops for the time, but I'd like to sink into another great Sci-Fi RPG. I've been so desperate I've been thinking of dragging Phantasy Star out of the woodwork. Generations of Doom, that's where it's at!

With Gears/Saga, any hints towards Bart? Always liked him the best

soundchaser721 wrote...

Man, its been forever since I've
posted in these threads, anyway belated congrats to brock for 500 Pages!
This threads the only one i feel safe in posting anymore So.....
has any new info been leaked as to Morrigan's (little) involvement in
DA2? After hearing that anders is coming back, I've got a bit of a
renewed sense of hope in this game, cant believe its less than a month
away, damn time flies.

No Morrigan in DA2 at all. Very
best we can hope for is seeing ripple effects of her plan play out, most
likely in conversations or actions by Flemeth.

Grendenhal wrote...



Please forgive in advance the sappy
musings of an old romantic. Does anyone know whether the Morrigan mod
changed the "friendship" dialogue after the Warden kills Flemeth --
starts with "Tis a curious thing . . . ."? I almost regretted going
back to "love" after that dialogue, because Morrigan clearly values
friendship much more than romance. The catch in her voice at the end
(Claudia Black is so damned good) was priceless.

I wouldn't
say she values friendship more, she just knows what the endgame is
going to be and knows it will be much easier this way. She's clearly
dissapointed if you shoot her down.



As to the mod, yes, Terra fixed so much pertaining to that questline that it feels crazy it was cut out.

[Swoo]

Oh Bioware forums auto-formatting feature, how could I forget the horror you bring upon my postings?



And BAM, Morrigan by Devilmaru! You can keep your stupid pseudo-pirate-girl Hawke, I'll stick with the Swamp Witch.

[Grendenhal]

Swoo wrote...

I wouldn't say she values friendship more, she just knows what the endgame is
going to be and knows it will be much easier this way. She's clearly
dissapointed if you shoot her down.

As to the mod, yes, Terra fixed so much pertaining to that questline that it feels crazy it was cut out.

But that's the thing:  this go around -- which may be in dialogue restored by the Mod, I don't know -- she very clearly says that she values friendship more.  She says that other men have lusted after her and even told her they loved her, but this is the first time she realized that true friendship with a man was even possible.  She may not always be worthy of the Warden's friendship, but she will always value it.

After that, I felt a little bad going back into the unworthy company of lusters and lovers.

[Grendenhal]

Good god, how many hours of companion conversation did they record? I didn't want to change my core group of Morrigan, Leliana and Alistaire, but I wanted to experience all the dialogue with other companions that I missed before. So I figured I'd take them all to the bridge in Orzammar Commons and just run back and forth, since the bridge automatically triggers dialogue. Started with Alistaire, Morrigan and Zevran, and 1.5 hours later was still running in and out of Proving, down the bridge, in and out of Proving, down the bridge.



Some of Morrigan's and Zevran's dialogue is hilarious. I liked the one where Morrigan invites him to seek Flemeth out and ask her his questions, since he's just her type. "Elven and handsome"? asks he? "No, someone who will never be missed."



Also was funny when Zevran propositions Leliana and she invites him to drop his trousers then and there, since she won't consider a tumble until the stories about elves are disproved.

[Esbatty]

Swoo wrote...

Oh Bioware forums auto-formatting feature, how could I forget the horror you bring upon my postings?

And BAM, Morrigan by Devilmaru! You can keep your stupid pseudo-pirate-girl Hawke, I'll stick with the Swamp Witch.

Thats been my PSP's background since after Christmas. *sigh* If only they'd do a bioware game for the PSP. No no, a Dragon Age game for the PSP.