16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Swoo]

ximena wrote...

I haven't really tried every romance in DA2, but so far... the romances doesn't have that same ugh... "effect" that really pulls you in. Closest would have been Anders in terms of "OHNOF*CKWHY" but the Morrigan romance is still more memorable than any of the romances. That's just my opinion. XD

And since I miss Morri so much... a quick sketch from me.

 

What, you mean you don't like the hit the heart button two times, get a sex cutscene, then everything is back to same old, same old with you struggling to learn anything new past the official docu's and character intro's in the game?!

Morrigan and Alistair both trump the holy hell out of anything DA2 has to offer.

[Brockololly]

ejoslin wrote...

 I'm not sure all the cameos were pointless.  It's hard to say.  Alistair may have been, though not having mention of him if king would have been a bit strange seeing is there's a strong sense of Ferelden pride with the refuges.
Zevran's, I've seen people complaining that he's showing up no matter what in their games, even if they killed him.  This could be a bug, but it could be a retcon.  If you read his codex, you see that he is doing is own brand of disruption that could also have far reaching implications.
Leliana may have a future in the series.  She is either important, or she could have been replaced by anyone; it's hard to say.  But she was definitely retconned.
There is SOME canon being established; I don't think that really can be avoided, however.  As long as they leave the important points non-canon (well, important to ME at least *grin*) I won't complain about that.

Yeah, I wouldn't say the cameos were entirely pointless, but maybe on occassion, forced? I think cameos in general work better when you're having the PC be able to reflect the feelings of the player- so if I'm all psyched to see Alistair or Zev back again, its just irritating to have to be stuck with Hawke going "Who are you?" when the player knows damn well who they're talking to. Otherwise, if you're already playing as a new PC, toss in new characters too.

Thats one of my other little gripes with DA2- there didn't seem to be too many fleshed out second tier type NPCs like Origins had like, Anora, Teagan, Eamon, Isolde, any of the Origin story characters (the Couslands, Aeducans...), Branca, Dagna, Gorim, Brother Genitivi, Ser Otto, Kolgrim- I could go on. Or the ones you do meet....well most of them seem to die.

ejoslin wrote...
**spoilers**  

So you have the chantry and the circles in ruin, you have the crows being decimated, you have the qunari in a position of strength, and you have DA3 taking place in Orlais.  Oh, and you have Morrigan with perhaps an OGB strengthening herself in mirror world and Flemeth still alive.  It has potential.  The larger story is getting interesting.

Oh, I agree. DA2 potentially sets things up for some interesting future events. But will BioWare make the most of that? The similarities between how KOTOR2 left things and DA2 are pretty striking and while there are differences, I'm still bitter as to how there will never be a proper KOTOR3. So I'm not going to get my hopes up for DA3 quite yet...

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

I think one of the main problems with the romances in DA2 in comparison to DA:O is this:

In DA:O the companions were often more engaging, gradually opening up to  the warden as the game progressed.  While not perfect it felt more  natural and you grew to be very attached to the companions as they
shared their motivations, failures, hopes, and plans for the future.  So romancing Morrigan made you actually feel you were gradually picking  away at her rough exterior and seeing the real her, to the point that it scared her.

In DA2 you have very little significant interaction  with your companions outside of the limited dialogue in their home and  when they basically say "It's my personal quest time are you coming?". 
The relationship feels forced, THIS IS <insert romance option  here>! HE/SHE HAS BEEN WITH YOU FOR X YEARS  RELATIONSHIP IS X YEARS IN THE MAKING, YOU MUST LOVE HIM/HER.

Agreed.

The characters are interesting, sure. But the jumpiness of the framed narrative and lack of player agency when interacting with the companions makes interacting with them and especially the romances feel extremely linear and on rails, not unlike ME's romances really. Its pretty by the numbers. And the time jumps don't feel natural or make much sense in why they have to last 3 years. They felt more like maybe 3 months most of the time and I just think they fall flat when you have to resort to the codex entries to make sense of whats supposed to have transpired in the interim in order to understand whats going on.

ximena wrote...
I haven't really tried every romance in  DA2, but so far... the romances doesn't have that same ugh... "effect"  that really pulls you in. Closest would have been Anders in terms of  "OHNOF*CKWHY" but the Morrigan romance is still more memorable than any  of the romances. That's just my opinion. XD

And since I miss Morri so much... a quick sketch from me.

Hooray for Morrigan! I'd agree on the romances too- they're not bad but (at least Isabela's, which I went through) feel sort of...mundane? Although I can imagine Anders' is interesting given what he does at the end. Although he really isn't even "Anders" anymore at that point I'd say.

Master Shiori wrote...

The whole family dinamic was truly well presented and resulted in some  truly emotional moments (stopping the "White Lillies" killer has to be  one of the darkest quests I've ever seen from Bioware).

I'd agree that my "favorite" (or maybe most memorable)  part of  DA2 was the White Lillies quest. Still, I think it could have been handled better if you gave the player some choice in the matter, not by avoiding a tragic outcome, but by possibly being able to achieve a good outcome immediately in that quest, only to have blood magic come back and bite Hawke in the ass later on. So the effect is still the same, but its giving the player some choice.

As for family- I don't know. Too often it simply felt like the game was telling me I'm supposed to care about the family members just because they were labeled as my family members. They didn't actually do a whole hell of a lot to endear themselves to my Hawke. Arguably, I'd say I had more affinity for the Couslands than the Hawkes in only the short time they were around in Origins. Really, they should have started the game in Lothering to give you a chance to connect with your family before tossing them in the meat grinder.

Master Shiori wrote...
The ending was  also surprisingly satisfactory, especially since I didn't get gaidered
(or "sheryled" as the case would be) and makes me wonder what the  significance of Leliana's comment on how both Hawke and the Warden disappeared is. Does that mean we may see them again at some point?

Eh....I think KoP has posted a bit on Act 3 and the ending and on how its rubbish (IMO) and the actual ending cliffhanger only has promise if BioWare does anything of note with it sooner rather than later.

Master Shiori wrote...
Btw, how many references to Morrigan, OGB or Witch Hunt did you guys and
gals find? The only references to Morrigan were when talking to Flemeth  after she rescued you and your family and later again on Sundermont.  Anders also mentons how 2 mages helped save Ferelden from the Blight and that one of them (Morrigan) was a apostate. But that's all.

Yeah, I got those. I was thinking maybe Merril would say something or we'd learn something more of note about the Eluvians but that plot really didn't go anywhere in that regard, which was annoying.

The only other thing would be the brief glimpse of Morrigan when the book flips close at the end:

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 mars 2011 - 08:42 .

[Swoo]

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

The whole family dinamic was truly well presented and resulted in some  truly emotional moments (stopping the "White Lillies" killer has to be  one of the darkest quests I've ever seen from Bioware).

I'd agree that my "favorite" (or maybe most memorable)  part of  DA2 was the White Lillies quest. Still, I think it could have been handled better if you gave the player some choice in the matter, not by avoiding a tragic outcome, but by possibly being able to achieve a good outcome immediately in that quest, only to have blood magic come back and bite Hawke in the ass later on. So the effect is still the same, but its giving the player some choice.

That just pi$$ed me off to no end, total forced outcome with the illusion of choice. I thought that what it actually *was* and how it was presented was fantastic, but giving me multiple chances to 'influence' the outcome, and forcing me into the same sh*tty ending no matter what is just total BS.

I followed up rumors, I checked Frenchie's house, I made an educated guess that he was telling the truth and spared him...and I get shafted no matter what. There was no difference between his 'help' or death, and I hate being forced into things like that. It was the Dark Ritual 2.0 with less emotional investment.

As it was leading up I was sure I had screwed up somewhere and Frenchie was the killer, and I was going to continue with my game paying the consquences for taking a gamble and paying for it hardcore, but no...it was nowhere near that deep.

If it would have just *happened*, I probably would have been rocked by it. It was well acted, it was well written, unlike the loss of...well...anyone else in the game...you actually felt you knew this person by this time when they were exiting, so there was emotional involvement...but having the driving wheel wrenched from you in the final lap just irritated me.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...
If it would have just *happened*, I probably would have been rocked by it. It was well acted, it was well written, unlike the loss of...well...anyone else in the game...you actually felt you knew this person by this time when they were exiting, so there was emotional involvement...but having the driving wheel wrenched from you in the final lap just irritated me.

Yeah, like so much else in DA2 its all about the illusion of choice. Really, thats one of my big complaints about the game- nothing Hawke does really has any diverging consequences- outside of your sibling. Thats really about it. Sure you can seemingly affect the fates of some of the companions, but well, DA2 shows that those only last so long as the writers feel like it.

I really think this was BioWare's weakest game in terms of having your choices even *appear* to matter much. Too often you do all the legwork to get a certain outcome but no matter what, everything ends up at the same point. Its even more apparent if you try playing the game a second time.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Swoo wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

The whole family dinamic was truly well presented and resulted in some  truly emotional moments (stopping the "White Lillies" killer has to be  one of the darkest quests I've ever seen from Bioware).

I'd agree that my "favorite" (or maybe most memorable)  part of  DA2 was the White Lillies quest. Still, I think it could have been handled better if you gave the player some choice in the matter, not by avoiding a tragic outcome, but by possibly being able to achieve a good outcome immediately in that quest, only to have blood magic come back and bite Hawke in the ass later on. So the effect is still the same, but its giving the player some choice.

That just pi$$ed me off to no end, total forced outcome with the illusion of choice. I thought that what it actually *was* and how it was presented was fantastic, but giving me multiple chances to 'influence' the outcome, and forcing me into the same sh*tty ending no matter what is just total BS.

I followed up rumors, I checked Frenchie's house, I made an educated guess that he was telling the truth and spared him...and I get shafted no matter what. There was no difference between his 'help' or death, and I hate being forced into things like that. It was the Dark Ritual 2.0 with less emotional investment.

As it was leading up I was sure I had screwed up somewhere and Frenchie was the killer, and I was going to continue with my game paying the consquences for taking a gamble and paying for it hardcore, but no...it was nowhere near that deep.

If it would have just *happened*, I probably would have been rocked by it. It was well acted, it was well written, unlike the loss of...well...anyone else in the game...you actually felt you knew this person by this time when they were exiting, so there was emotional involvement...but having the driving wheel wrenched from you in the final lap just irritated me.

I thought that whole storyline was crap TBQH. The concept had great potential, and the reaction at the end was great (and something the series lacked), but the story itself? Terrible. Could have gone with something else entirely.

[MKDAWUSS]

Brockololly wrote...

Swoo wrote...
If it would have just *happened*, I probably would have been rocked by it. It was well acted, it was well written, unlike the loss of...well...anyone else in the game...you actually felt you knew this person by this time when they were exiting, so there was emotional involvement...but having the driving wheel wrenched from you in the final lap just irritated me.

Yeah, like so much else in DA2 its all about the illusion of choice. Really, thats one of my big complaints about the game- nothing Hawke does really has any diverging consequences- outside of your sibling. Thats really about it. Sure you can seemingly affect the fates of some of the companions, but well, DA2 shows that those only last so long as the writers feel like it.

I really think this was BioWare's weakest game in terms of having your choices even *appear* to matter much. Too often you do all the legwork to get a certain outcome but no matter what, everything ends up at the same point. Its even more apparent if you try playing the game a second time.

Yep. At the end I tried to remember all the choices I made, and my list felt rather blank.

[Brockololly]

MKDAWUSS wrote...
Yep. At the end I tried to remember all the choices I made, and my list felt rather blank.

I mean, outside of maybe companion fates and the end choice who you sided with, what flags would carry forward into any hypothetical DA3? Honestly, compared to Origins I can't think of any- especially if you're not playing as Hawke.


Now about Flemeth and her Sundermount conversation...


FLEMETH SPOILERS







Ok, so when Hawke asks whether Flemeth was in the amulet the whole time, she replies:

"A bit of security, should the inevitable occur. And if I know my Morrigan, it already has."

So, what exactly is Flemeth referring to here? What is this "inevitable" thing she's thinking Morrigan has done? Is she referring to Morrigan having the Warden kill Flemeth? But that makes her statement a bit odd- almost as if DA2 Flemeth isn't the same person as DAO Flemeth, since wouldn't DA2 Flemeth have known for sure she was killed? Or is Flemeth referring to maybe Morrigan activating the Eluvian or doing the DR?

That of course ties into what she says next:

"Must I be in only one place? Bodies are such limiting things."

"I am but a fragment cast adrift from the whole. A bit of flotsam to cling to in the storm!"

Ok, so Flemeth can technically be in more than one place at once? She seemingly broke off a piece of her soul into the amulet for safe keeping, right? This raises a ton of questions like: How was Flemeth able to materialize out of the amulet? Morrigan's big thing with Flemeth in Origins was that Flemeth wanted to snatch her body. Yet, what body is Flemeth using in DA2 after the Ritual if the Warden killed her other body?

And this brings up the whole Flemeth=Morrigan stuff from Origins really if its possible for Flemeth to be in more than one place at a time. Is it not possible that Flemeth has broken her soul off into all of her past daughters maybe but with Morrigan, she's sort of left her to her own path? But that at whatever time, she can maybe pull a Harbinger and assume direct control of Morrigan?

Or does Flemeth, while having broken her soul off into various WItches of the Wilds maybe, she only can actively possess one body at a time?

So, say it went like this:

-Flemeth broke off part of her soul into the amulet and gave it to Hawke
-Flemeth was killed by the Warden and the soul inhabiting that Flemeth body "died" or maybe went back to some main Flemeth soul out in the Fade or something since Morrigan wasn't nearby to take over.
-Hawke resurrected soul fragment Flemeth, yet this version of Flemeth only had knowledge of what happened up until the moment it was stuck in the amulet- thus, why she seems to be guessing about the "inevitable" having occured- namely Morrigan having had the Warden kill her old body.


OR, did Flemeth sort of prime the amulet so that should the Warden have killed her or her old body just gave out, she'd have been able to navigate her soul into the amulet? But that still doesn't explain how she was able to materialize out of thin air without a body, does it?

Then again, I wonder if this scene plays out any differently if you didn't kill Flemeth in Origins?

*END SPOILERS

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 mars 2011 - 09:53 .

[Glorfindel709]

I don't know what to say anymore... DA2 completely killed my drive to play RPGs. I've tried to go back to Elder Scrolls, I tried starting a new game in Origins... I just can't do it.

I want to curl up in a ball and wait for the creeping hatred to go away so I can enjoy my games again >.<

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
And this brings up the whole Flemeth=Morrigan stuff from Origins really if its possible for Flemeth to be in more than one place at a time. Is it not possible that Flemeth has broken her soul off into all of her past daughters maybe but with Morrigan, she's sort of left her to her own path? But that at whatever time, she can maybe pull a Harbinger and assume direct control of Morrigan?

If that was the case, why would she let her prove to be an insecurity as she says to Hawke? Why would she let Morrigan take the OGB and use the Eluvian? Interesting.

Flemeth does have yellow eyes now. Could be just for looks. Could be an indication too. Your theory has merit, but I fail to see what Flemeth is trying to do really.

@ Glor
I got that feeling too. I was loving the game throughout, then the ending just left me...I don't know, vfeeling very underwhelmed and demotivated.

[TheBlackBaron]

Master Shiori wrote...
Nice sketch Ximena. Thank you for sharing it.

Seconded. 

I finished my first playthrough of DA2 and am now trying out some other characters, classes and making different choices. The game itself lived up to my expectations and I like it more than I did Origins. The companions, story, quest qualities and gameplay in general just feel better. Morrigan is still my favorite DA character, but apart from her, Leliana, Zevran and Loghain, I feel the DA2 companions are simply more interesting than most of those from DA:O. The party banter is hilarious, Isabela romance has to be second favorite romance in Dragon Age and one of the best ones in any Bioware game (Morri's hold the throne though).

Eh...there was good and bad from the party. Some people I liked, some people I didn't, it was pretty much the same mix of both that came from Origins. 

Nobody can step up to Morri, of course, but Varric was great and a suitable replacement for Alistair (from a bromance pov, of course - I'm sure some of the ladies will disagree). Isabela and Merrill were fun in their own way. 

Everybody else kind of sat in the background for me. Anders had an annoying personality 180 (justified, of course, due to Justice *rimshot*, but still annoying), Fenris was too broody (I'm the PC, only I am allowed to brood), and Aveline and Sebastian were, well, average. 

The combat system itself was overhauled for the better, but the acutal design of the encounters was pretty bad, so that's a break even. 

I don't know, on the whole it's still a good to very good game, perhaps even great if I'm being generous, but it wasn't Origins, nor was it the game it was trying to be, ME (I might be biased there, though, as a sci-fi fanboy). It just feels very "one step forward, two steps back". 

The whole family dinamic was truly well presented and resulted in some truly emotional moments (stopping the "White Lillies" killer has to be one of the darkest quests I've ever seen from Bioware).

Oof...Buffalo Bill making his way into Kirkwall was rough, very rough. I had actually grown to like the family dynamic as well, and I about **** myself when I heard the bit about white lillies. Some good VO from FemHawke there as well, sounding shaken, scared, and angry when the situation called for it. Maybe I'm just used to Meer's deadpan delivery, though. 

However, I do feel that they generally wasted the potential that Hawke's family represented. Carver gets killed off in the first five minutes before any connection at all is made, so that's completely a scratch. Bethany I loved, as I've mentioned before, but she gets forcibly removed from the party in Act I, so that's another waste. 

Mama Hawke was about the only one I feel they managed to utilize somewhat effectively, and the quest is good at tugging heart strings, but after how much they talked up the family in the previews to have removed them all from the picture half-way through the game is a big letdown.

On the positive side, at least Grey Warden Bethany showed back up in the finale. The addition of her to the crack team of Marian-Merrill-Varric made pretty much everything afterwards just melt away. 

The ending was also surprisingly satisfactory, especially since I didn't get gaidered (or "sheryled" as the case would be) and makes me wonder what the significance of Leliana's comment on how both Hawke and the Warden disappeared is. Does that mean we may see them again at some point?

I can't see how you can call it satisfactory *at this time*. They've set some things up, and it's enough to get me a little excited about the future of the series once more, but if they screw things up again like they did post-Awakening it's just going to be another colossal dissapointment. 

I'm certainly going to be praying for a Warden-Hawke team-up, though. Nevermind swords, they'll be able to just snark their way through encounters. 

Btw, how many references to Morrigan, OGB or Witch Hunt did you guys and gals find? The only references to Morrigan were when talking to Flemeth after she rescued you and your family and later again on Sundermont. Anders also mentons how 2 mages helped save Ferelden from the Blight and that one of them (Morrigan) was a apostate. But that's all.

Aside from the ones you mentioned, Brock found a creepy bit of dialog from Sandal that might refer to the OGB. 

Could just as easily refer to Jeff the Dragon of Biscuits, however, so I'm not sure it counts. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 18 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[MoSa09]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, most of the cameos felt forced and pointless really, especially considering its not the Warden reuniting with the Origins people, so you just have to stand there like a dork and ask "Durrr who are you?" Really, it was up there with the KOTOR 2 Exile meeting Bastila and Carth cameo at times.

my favorite cameo in that respect is Alistair. He is just there to show his face, like saying "look, its really Dragon Age". Better they would have kept him out completely. He doesn't serve a purpose being there, and considering the new king of Ferelden, a Nation still rebuilding, travels the Waking Sea to say hello to Kirkwall and get home again... I really like cameos, but like boss fghts (act 3), give them a meaning and not implement them just for the sake of having them.

Brockololly wrote...

Pretty much- I don't get it- she seemingly got a wholesale redesign for all of 5 minutes screentime total? I mean, it reminds me of movies that blow their load showing the best scenes in the trailers so once you watch the movie you're just sort of left with the feeling of "Thats it?" Flemeth really served very little obvious purpose in DA2 beyond spewing more cryptic mumbo jumbo hogwash. So when DA3 prominently displays Morrigan all over the place when they promote it, it'll likely mean she's in it for all of  3 minutes and 45 seconds before a giant rock crushes her or she goes 180 like Anders and turns into a mustache twirling Terrorist Abomination.<_<

Kate Mulgrew is certainly expensive. Wonder why they even bothered to hire her if she delivers just a few lines. The game would not be missing anything if Flemeth would not have been there, to me at least. And that is probably the worst you can say about a character in a character driven game.

Brockololly wrote...


Ok, so Flemeth can technically be
in more than one place at once? She seemingly broke off a piece of her
soul into the amulet for safe keeping, right? This raises a ton of
questions like: How was Flemeth able to materialize out of the amulet?
Morrigan's big thing with Flemeth in Origins was that Flemeth wanted to
snatch her body. Yet, what body is Flemeth using in DA2 after the Ritual
if the Warden killed her other body?

And this brings up the
whole Flemeth=Morrigan stuff from Origins really if its possible for
Flemeth to be in more than one place at a time. Is it not possible that
Flemeth has broken her soul off into all of her past daughters maybe but
with Morrigan, she's sort of left her to her own path? But that at
whatever time, she can maybe pull a Harbinger and assume direct control
of Morrigan?

Or does Flemeth, while having broken her soul off
into various WItches of the Wilds maybe, she only can actively possess
one body at a time?

i have my serious doubts about the whole possession story actually. I think its just myth. Flemeth is old, there are endless stories about her, and apparently, she expected Morrigan to act and strike against her.

I would not be surprised at all if her story was fake, if she wanted Morrigan to act against her. Whe she tells she has an appointment, that is shortly after you left Lothering as a Warden, so she already knew Morrigan would be coming. Or expected it. I really expect the whole possession thing to be bogus, a trap, to lure Morrigan to her to hide the real way she survives.

And it seems, Flemeth is able to shatter her soul and as long as if parts survive, she does, If that makes her human, or something different (lately, i tend to think of her like the Wolf in the Dalish myth, the one who locked both elven gods away from earth) remains to be seen.

[Esbatty]

There was a codex entry, I believe in one of Merrill's Sundermount quests, thats tells the story of a "Golden Mirror". A young woman shows up one night at the the home an old married couple, they offer to let her stay the night and feed her. In thanks she tells them she has a mirror that can grant 3 wishes. The Old woman grabs the mirror up and wishes herself young again. The Old man gets upset and yells at her for not wishing them both young again. They fight over the mirror and repeat they wish that each other got what they deserved, and then they both turned old and gray again. I forget the rest of the entry but I think it mentioned that the girl ended up being a demon in disguise.

But I just found it interesting that it utilized a golden mirror to teach a lesson.

[ximena]

Flemeth's appointment was to set up the next puppet protagonist for DAIII. (Seems to be what she's doing every game. Haha.)


Just kidding. 


I'm actually rather frustrated at how Merrill didn't get to fix the eluvian. Now I'm wondering if it's just an interest hook and what the implications would have been if it was fixed. *sighs* 

[Esbatty]

ximena wrote...

Flemeth's appointment was to set up the next puppet protagonist for DAIII. (Seems to be what she's doing every game. Haha.)


Just kidding. 


I'm actually rather frustrated at how Merrill didn't get to fix the eluvian. Now I'm wondering if it's just an interest hook and what the implications would have been if it was fixed. *sighs* 

Warden: Alright Kiddo, time to stretch your legs and say to Ferel- Morrigan?
Morrigan: *sigh* What is it?
Warden: Why are we in... is this Kirkwall?
Morrigan: I thought this was last seen in the Brecillian Forest?
Warden: Well clearly someone or something moved it to Kirkwall.
Morrigan: My my, how perceptive of you.
Warden: Hmm... I guess Alistair was right, your nose is decidedly like Flemeths.
Morrigan: HOW - grrr, not in front of the child.
Warden: Mommy, has grandma's nose!
OGB: Grandma's nose!
Morrigan: I hate you so much.
Merrill: Ooh visitors, 'ullo!

[Brockololly]

ximena wrote...
I'm actually rather frustrated at how Merrill didn't get to fix the eluvian. Now I'm wondering if it's just an interest hook and what the implications would have been if it was fixed. *sighs* 

Yeah, the only reason I had Hawke try to help fix was shameless metagaming on my part hoping we'[d learn something about it or how they worked or where they lead to. Instead you don't learn anything about it no matter what you decide.

Oh, and more Gaider teasing of the DR/OGB/Morrigan on the DA2 forums:

David Gaider wrote...

Moondoggie wrote...
Are we just forgetting that whole major plot point now?

Nope.

Are they ever going to explain what the bloody hell that was all about?

Very possibly. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

I have the bad feeling that if DA2 has lagging sales (which after the initial rush and lift from preorders, I'm guessing it will, given all the other games coming out this year), they'll decide to try and toss Morrigan in some DLC to stir up interest. And of course it won't be given the attention its due.

I'd be curious what post release DLC for Origins sold best...

[MKDAWUSS]

Brockololly wrote...

I have the bad feeling that if DA2 has lagging sales (which after the initial rush and lift from preorders, I'm guessing it will, given all the other games coming out this year), they'll decide to try and toss Morrigan in some DLC to stir up interest. And of course it won't be given the attention its due.

Not to mention it'll probably be BUGGED beyond belief, ignoring either the romance or the DR or both, and we'll be trying to find a way to alter the plot states via something or other...

[TheBlackBaron]

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, the only reason I had Hawke try to help fix was shameless metagaming on my part hoping we'd learn something about it or how they worked or where they lead to. Instead you don't learn anything about it no matter what you decide.

Yep, same here. It's hard to just roleplay as Hawke when they're dangling threads like this out there. 

David Gaider wrote...

Moondoggie wrote...
Are we just forgetting that whole major plot point now?

Nope.

Are they ever going to explain what the bloody hell that was all about?

Very possibly. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

We sure Gaider wasn't a writer for, I don't know, Lost or The X-Files?

I have the bad feeling that if DA2 has lagging sales (which after the initial rush and lift from preorders, I'm guessing it will, given all the other games coming out this year), they'll decide to try and toss Morrigan in some DLC to stir up interest. And of course it won't be given the attention its due.

I'd be curious what post release DLC for Origins sold best...

I doubt that. After repeatedly insisting that they were done with the Warden for now and emphasising that this was Hawke's story and the series was all about Thedas, to go back and pick up a plot thread like Morrigan/the eluvian/the OGB from Origins that's mostly unrelated to DA2 in something as simple as a DLC would be tantamount to admitting defeat on the subject. 

More likely, if they do choose to return to it before the next major installment (don't see why they would, but you never know), it'd be in an xpack advancing their metaplot along. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 19 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[MKDAWUSS]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I doubt that. After repeatedly insisting that they were done with the Warden for now and emphasising that this was Hawke's story and the series was all about Thedas, to go back and pick up a plot thread like Morrigan/the eluvian/the OGB from Origins that's mostly unrelated to DA2 in something as simple as a DLC would be tantamount to admitting defeat on the subject. 

More likely, if they do choose to return to it before the next major installment (don't see why they would, but you never know), it'd be in an xpack advancing their metaplot along. 

Well, it could be that the Warden ended up dead, which would mean that they're correct in the Warden being done, while still being able to advance Morrigan and the OGB... My prediction is that Flemeth kills both Hawke and the Warden (if he didn't do the US), as she sees that both have served their purpose (the Warden's being to father the OGB, Hawke's to start the war that wipes out the Circle and Chantry). Of course, I could be wrong.

One thing that I think is going on is that the writers/producers seem to be winging this on the fly. I think there were quite a few 11th hour changes made to DA2, even if it was being conceptualized before Origins was released.

[TheBlackBaron]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Well, it could be that the Warden ended up dead, which would mean that they're correct in the Warden being done, while still being able to advance Morrigan and the OGB... My prediction is that Flemeth kills both Hawke and the Warden (if he didn't do the US), as she sees that both have served their purpose (the Warden's being to father the OGB, Hawke's to start the war that wipes out the Circle and Chantry). Of course, I could be wrong.

I am going to rage so damn hard if that's the route they take, although I don't dispute that it's one of the cards they're more likely to play. 

Just a colossal waste of story potential to do so, imo. 

One thing that I think is going on is that the writers/producers seem to be winging this on the fly. I think there were quite a few 11th hour changes made to DA2, even if it was being conceptualized before Origins was released.

Well, I don't think they've necessarily got a grand, inflexible plan for what they want to do with the series. Just that they've got an outline of story ideas and ways to tie them all together. 

[Brockololly]

On the possibility of an expack- I doubt it. Purely my speculation, but I have a feeling that so much of DAO's post release DLC was subpar in part due to having sunk a good chunk of their budget into Awakening. Now, maybe if Awakening sold really well they'd be more apt to do another one. But given how poorly received the DAO DLC was, and how relatively well received the ME2 DLC was (think Shadow Broker), they'll adopt a more ME2 style for DLC- only releasing a handful, all tied to Hawke, that take place during the course of the game, not after like Witch Hunt.

Funny/Sad thing is, with ME2, they've had lengthier DLC support than Origins, despite the claims how DAO would have 2 years of DLC support.

But  I think the core thing with any DA2 DLC is they NEED to make new environments. If the first DLC simply takes place in yet another Kirkwall locale we've already seen, something is terribly wrong.

MKDAWUSS wrote...
One thing that I think is going on is that the writers/producers seem to be winging this on the fly. I think there were quite a few 11th hour changes made to DA2, even if it was being conceptualized before Origins was released.

I'd guess its more the producers/higher ups forcing changes on the franchise. I'd guess the writers have had a decent idea of where story wise they want things to go. But game development gets in the way and the game gets rushed out and you end up with garbage like Act 3- it should arguably be the coolest part of the game but falls flat.

Modifié par Brockololly, 19 mars 2011 - 05:18 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Brockololly wrote...

On the possibility of an expack- I doubt it. Purely my speculation, but I have a feeling that so much of DAO's post release DLC was subpar in part due to having sunk a good chunk of their budget into Awakening. Now, maybe if Awakening sold really well they'd be more apt to do another one. But given how poorly received the DAO DLC was, and how relatively well received the ME2 DLC was (think Shadow Broker), they'll adopt a more ME2 style for DLC- only releasing a handful, all tied to Hawke, that take place during the course of the game, not after like Witch Hunt.

Funny/Sad thing is, with ME2, they've had lengthier DLC support than Origins, despite the claims how DAO would have 2 years of DLC support.

But  I think the core thing with any DA2 DLC is they NEED to make new environments. If the first DLC simply takes place in yet another Kirkwall locale we've already seen, something is terribly wrong.

That's why I think any DLC or xpack they make is going to be taking place after the game. One, they've been repeatedly savaged for reusing assests pretty much since Golems came out, so hopefully they'll have learned their lesson and avoid that. Two, the game as it stands ends in year seven, wheras during the lead-up a decade was frequently named as the timespan, so I think they're planning to bridge the area between the debacle in Kirkwall and the breaking of the Fellowship  the party splitting up and Hawke dissappearing. 

Moreover, the most well-recieved ME2 DLC has been Shadow Broker, which while capable of being played at any time is clearly designed to be done post-Suicide Mission; Arrival will probably lock out the option of playing it before that entirely. 

[Brockololly]

Interesting and lengthy interview with Laidlaw about DA2 on 1UP. There are some story spoilers, but they're clearly noted in the article. I only link it here as he brings up where DA could go next:

I think, probably, currently, that Orlais is more fascinating simply because we've seen more of it. We've seen more hints, heard more stories from Leliana, and Orlais has just teased us more. It's been more coquettish -- we've seen the ankle and we want to see what's above it. So to me, Orlais is the one that has a ton of draw and really will intrigue people. Because it is a fascinating culture, and similar to how the Qunari are very different from Ferelden or Kirkwall, Orlais offers up another slice of the world. And recall that I said that Dragon Age is about the world. So it's something that, I think people are rightfully intrigued by, and it's something that as a design team, intrigues us too.

Of course, the Urthemiel Plateau is over by Orlais too...Although, I can't help but think that graphically, DA3 would have to seriously step up to adequately portray as baroque a city as Val Royeaux, since a spartan barren city like Kirkwall wouldn't work for Orlesian culture.

Modifié par Brockololly, 19 mars 2011 - 07:22 .

[Terra_Ex]

Lots of stuff to catch up on... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...




[/quote]

Nice find Brock, how closely were you watching to spot that [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]


[quote]KnightOfPhoenix wrote...
But I really doubt that Morrigan would willingly compromise her free will. Not when a lot is at stake, OGB potentially included. Morrigan might have used a demon, and then backstabbed it when it outlived its usefullness, but I do not think she would willingly allow herself to be possessed. Sher knows in Origins very well that dealing with demons is foolish.

We mustn't forget that Morrigan was taught magic by Flemeth, and could have potentially learned a lot more later. I think Morrigan surpasses any Dalish mage in power and knowledge. So I think it's possible she knew how to activate the Eluvian without a demon.
[/quote]
There's no doubt in my mind that Morrigan is more powerful/knowledgeable than Merrill, the book she stole might have had some information regarding this. I just took it as she found it difficult to restore to a usable state, saying it can only be used once more (another of her branches says the child already went through) - I don't think anything more was implied beyond that.

 
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I really don't like the face system in DA2. Its decent at getting slightly more expressive faces, but I swear the vast majority of the non-companion or major female NPCs all have the same general faces/face structure. And its annoying cuase everyone has roughly the same shaped nose/ chubby jawline that makes them look like blockheads.

And something is just "off" with the DA2 faces- maybe its the teeth or the texture of the skin looking too Botoxed up, but I think they're not as expressive or natural looking as DAO's mostly.

Hopefully one of their goals is to at least make sure they can replicate DAO characters better for DA3, as only Nathaniel and Cullen looked pretty accurate I thought. Leliana looked ok, but her nose was bigger and Alistair and Teagan looked dreadful.
[/quote]
Yeah, Alistair didn't look too great in his DA2 incarnation, don't know what happened there. I certainly agree regarding facial structures. Your Morri CC mockup wasn't too bad though.

[quote]Gennojo Ryuga wrote...
Does any of the romance options even come close to how awesome and special the Morrigan romance was?

I heard most if not all the romances were lame and underwhelming in comparison.
[/quote]
Not for the female LIs at least, there's no comparison between the two.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I just really hated the heart icon for the romances in DA2- IMO, it kills any sense of achievement you might get in picking the right dialogue to get a romance going and its basically BioWare spoon feeding you the romance lines like you're an idiot and couldn't figure them out yourself so BioWare has to step in Cyrano de Bergerac style.

I mean, I liked in DAO picking certain dialogue and wondering how an NPC might react. WIth the heart icon its like you have to pick that any time it comes up.
[/quote]
It's laughable tbh. With the paraphrases barely relating to the line Hawke delivers BW might as well have just copy pasted Alpha Protocol's dialogue system in its entirety because with their current implementation, the icon is several orders of magnitude more important than the text. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]


[quote]Swoo wrote...
Merrill's was crap. I honestly have considered going back to the save before her and shooting down the romance, since my Act III is totally unplayable thanks to bugs (yay being locked in Castillion's warehouse!), and finishing it off with Isabela in the 'starring as your pseudo-half-arsed girlfriend, Pirate Chick!'.

But yeah, other than one little bit about just how much better Hightown is, and a two line codex entry, I see nothing that looks like it's changed or opened up via romance/ non-romance with her. I'm guessing that's DA2's romance system which truly is a make up your own bits between the (very empty) lines.
[/quote]
I followed Merrill's until the bedroom scene then broke it off since I was also romancing Isabela and didn;t want to hit bugs. But the crowning moment of the Isabela romance was this which happened in my playthrough:

-Hawke romances Isabela, reaches her final conversation in the hanged man. Isabela says she's falling for Hawke, does she have a chance? Hawke says yes, the two kiss - it's all coming along nicely and we've actually seen a bit of character development on Isabela's part.
-5 minutes later, we head off to Sundermount to meet up with an elven assassin. Isabela comes along too and building on her previous revelation of 5 minutes hence, decides she wants to bed elven assassin. Hawke, the dynamic, chatty guy he is stands there with a blank look on his face as all this was decided around him. The defining moment, without a doubt.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
The bug that I had was that at the start of Act 3 you go to talk to her for the first time and you get what should be the last dialogue cutscene with her for that Act, after you've done her quest. So she's all emotional saying all this stuff when nothing has happened yet- so the game basically spoils her personal quest since you haven't even done it yet.
[/quote]
Was anything supposed to happen after the scene with Merrill / Keeper at the top of Sundermount. I think I might have missed out on some of the tail ends of the companion quests. Seemed like a scene that warranted a follow up but nothing came of it in my game. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
And I don't think you missed much MoSa- probably just more long winded rants on DA2 and the state of the gaming industry, with some Morrigan and Flemeth stuff sprinkled in
[/quote]
It's what the Morri thread is all about

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
Anyhow...what's the verdict on Teagan's line about the Warden being in Denerim? My first instinct is "bug", naturally, but the plot summary from the import screen seems to correctly interpret that he went through the mirror with Morrigan.
[/quote]
I don't know since apparently DA2 doesn't actually do anything with the DLC (Golems, WH) flags. SO if thats the case then I'd think its essentially a bug, as that contradicts the Awakening slide of the Warden vanishing and what Cassandra says at the end of DA2. Like I've said here and elsewhere, I can't imagine an Eluvian Warden just stopping back in Denerim to chat for a bit and then going off and disappearing again.
[/quote]
Checking the talk table (which is a bit haphazard tbh) I think that's the default line if any other conditions aren't met.  There are a couple of things Alistair can say regarding the warden - definitely caters to females who married him, but naturally the Eluvian ending doesn't seem to be accounted for. So, either an oversight, bugged import (whereby the should skip that line for mirror world wardens) or the warden came back already, though I'm not sure how that ties in with the Awakening epilogue disappearance. Did Gaider nix that as rumour/hearsay, has it already occured by that part of DA2 (assuming whether what Cassandra refers to is the Awakening disappearance)?

[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
I don't personally find the time skips to be particularly inconsistent - if you can keep in mind the length of time that's passing, it does serve to make the romances have better natural progress than usually happens with Bioware RPGs. That's at least one aspect where they improved over DA:O.
[/quote]
Except they didn't really seem to do much with it. For Isabela at least it seemed to consist of her "disappearing" for 3 years at the end of each act and then reappearing so we could pick up exactly where we left off (with this information gleaned via the codex). I know BW talked up how they were going to use this to create a more realistic romance, but I just didn't see it, at least not for Isabela.


[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
In short, I could probably sum it up as "one step forward, two steps back". It's good, but not as good as its predecessor or the game it was trying to be (ME/ME2).
[/quote]
This, pretty much. It had some moments of brilliance but even those can't make up for the multitude of problems that were created needlessly in this iteration.


[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
Well, speaking of Flemeth, what a disappointment she was. Given she was the first face to be shown of DA 2 , i ecpected her to play a bigger role. Sure, BW never explicitly said that, but it certainly created a lot of assumptions and hopes
[/quote]
Flemeth's appearance served two minor purposes- saving Hawke and negating the Kill Flemeth/Let Flemeth go choice from Origins. A bit of cryptic nonsense was given out too but compared to what we were guessing from the trailers it was very disappointing.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]


[quote]Glorfindel709 wrote...
As I romance the other dark haired mage in a Dragon Age game, I find myself disappointed in the romances in DA2. I dunno, I guess it's just because no one can really match the morrigan romance but I just wish there were more opportunities to actually talk with the companions and learn more about them  in the romance. The companion quest conversations really arent nearly enough.
[/quote]
I'm just not feeling the depth I did with Origins, I even lowered my expectations due to the 3rd person, VO approach but it just didn't click for me, it all seemed too reminiscient of the shallow interactions Shepard has with his/her crew in Mass Effect, replete with a focus on clever camera shots rather than the dialogue itself- this becomes very apparent as every conversation is now essentially a cutscene. If someone hasn't played Mass Effect before, they'll likely be impressed initially with the presentation, yet down the line the cracks will begin to show. As Brock mentioned earlier, the heart icons & wheel approach is a hands-off "press here to win" style of conversation and felt very underwhelming compared to what came before it. Paired with the Awakening style popup one-liners while out and about it made some aspects of character development seem a bit artifical, with the three year gaps with no progression in relationship/character development only adding to my disappointment.


[quote]Glorfindel709 wrote...
Sten is better than the Arishok. :-p
[/quote]
God no, the Arishok was one of the better parts of DA2.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
BTW, how are we supposed to know if the Morrigan romance carried over? I saw that my Warden's origins was visible in "The Hero of Ferelden" codex entry along with a few other things, but it made no mention of his relationships...
[/quote]
The only reliable way is to open the savegame itself in pyGFF and check the flags yourself manually - http://social.biowar.../index/6498551. Most LI flags seem to be messed up in DA2 though - the data is there, yet the game isn't accessing them properly. My brief look at the DA2 talk table determined that there don't appear to be any Morrigan/Warden romance specific lines in DA2 though. And as I might have mentioned before, the codex or even Bodahn in Hightown would have been ideal to acknowledge the romances, seeing as how he was right there in camp. I think he only acknowledges the US, King / Queen endings though with nothing specific past that. Would have been the perfect time to give a subtle nod to the warden's LI, imo.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I think part of the problem with the DA2 companions is in part due to the friendship/rivalry meter, they just boil down to a single ideological issue when dealing with Hawke, maybe outside of Varric or Aveline. So anytime you talk to one of them it ends up being templars/mages/chantry and so on. And because of the friendship/rivalry, you have to game it to one extreme or the other, lest you get stuck in the middle. If anything, I'd say there is too much banter in DA2 and not enough one on one conversations to have Hawke personally connect with the companions and have them actually feel like friends, rather than people trailing around Hawke for no apparent reason.

So you know where the companions stand on the big issues, but rarely get to see any personal quirks like you did in Origins via the gift system or through those banters, since the heavy lifting of the dialogue and characterization of DA2 is done via the banters.
[/quote]
^This. One thing that set DA:O apart was the ability to start a proper conversation at the player's discretion, in camp or out. This has now be streamlined into the "cooler" Awakening/ME system. To me, that just highlighted a major problem of mine with Mass Effect - the inability to engage in dialogue with companions outside of scripted scenes.

And regarding the rationale for followers to stick with a leader - the camp in DA:O actually served this purpose as it forced all the companions to be in one place at all times, thus you can infer relationships/rivalries developing between them, they all had a reason to follow the warden and by circumstance they were forced to deal with each other. With DA2's set up, there's little reason really why some of the companions would be arguing with each other to the extent they do because they wouldn't be forced to interact with each other to the same extent as the Origins crew did.

[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
Finally finished the game last night. I would be all raring to say that now there's no way they can't possibly be setting up KotOR III-that-never-was, with both Hawke (who I liked far, far more than I ever thought I would) and the Warden in play. But after convicing myself post-Awakening they were craftily move pieces around to cut all of the Warden's ties to Ferelden and set the next game in Orlais...yeah, I'm not going to get burned again.
[/quote]
Haha, I love how in DA2 we've got a bunch of setup for Orlais (again! but even moreso this time) - Sandal & Bohdan are heading there, several references to the empress, Cassandra will presumably be returning at some point. We know that Gaider obviously wants/wanted to take Morri to Orlais in the future and his comments to Brock a while back were "maybe she did go there, maybe she will again" or something to that effect. There were also interesting points about something important happening with the wardens half way through the game and the reference to the warden in the final moments... So yeah, its a safe bet that the next game will have nothing to do with any of these things.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah...after Origins I was sure they'd set the game in Orlais or Tevinter but instead they go to...Kirkwall? Yeah, didn't see that coming. And the ending is totally just like KOTOR2 ended up IMO, just substitute Revan/Exile with Warden/Hawke potentially. Question is now, does BioWare do anything of note with this or just ****** away another goldne opportunity in some effort not alienate people that haven't even bothered playing the games thus far?
[/quote]
Well I'm stumped, Brock, really


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, most of the cameos felt forced and pointless really, especially considering its not the Warden reuniting with the Origins people, so you just have to stand there like a dork and ask "Durrr who are you?" Really, it was up there with the KOTOR 2 Exile meeting Bastila and Carth cameo at times.
[/quote]
I agree, I did like Lel's new armour though, but that's not the point It exemplifies on a small scale what we've discussed many times before, will it remain a cameo for the sake of a cameo or will they actually tie in the warden reference at the end with Hawke, Lels + Cassandra in the future...

 
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
It could be. It would seem to me at least that the end of DA2 has the world and its institutions rather fractured and in disarray. You've got renewed tensions between Ferelden and Orlais, likely the Qunari doing who knows what, the Circles in ruins and who knows how many factions of mages doing whatever, the Templars breaking away from the Chantry, and the Wardens seemingly up to something, maybe even with the Awakened Disciples.

So amidst all that chaos, when everyone is looking to their own interests, what better time for Morrigan and the OGB (and the Warden, dammit) to swoop on down?

I'd think the reception people might have towards the OGB would be how he presents himself too. I still think it would be kind of neat if the OGB came back acting like some Messiah/Jesus/Andraste type figure- so with the world and Chantry in chaos, with the Maker seemingly having abandoned everyone, who shows up performing miracles and so forth? The Old God Baby- and that way, he can go along building up a loyal following converting the populace as he makes his way across Thedas, maybe gathering an army as he goes, maybe marching on say, the heart of the Chantry and Val Royeaux, with Morrigan and the Warden the proud parents.

Doubt that would happen- quite frankly, given how hamfistedly the Mages/Templars conflict in DA2 was handled combined with the impotence of teh framed narrative, my faith in BioWare's storytelling ability is a bit shaken.
[/quote]
That would be an interesting spin to put on the OGB plotline. I found that the 10 year framed narrative turned out to be little more than a convenient excuse to recycle areas over and over (which certainly aided the shorter development time).


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
But then again, you have to imagine Flemeth has a stake in all of this somehow, and I'd imagine whatever it is she is up to is bigger than worldly institutions like the Chantry- the same goes for Morrigan and the OGB likely too.
[/quote]
I suppose Flemeth's appearance is interesting in that it seemingly kills previous theories that Flemeth was toying with the warden when she fought him/her - supposedly she or a part of her did actually die there and so a courier was necessary to ensure she had a backup plan. Would she have been as willing to engage the warden without her contingency plan.

[quote]Gennojo Ryuga wrote...
In DA2 you have very little significant interaction with your companions outside of the limited dialogue in their home and when they basically say "It's my personal quest time are you coming?".  The relationship feels forced, THIS IS <insert romance option here>! HE/SHE HAS BEEN WITH YOU FOR X YEARS RELATIONSHIP IS X YEARS IN THE MAKING, YOU MUST LOVE HIM/HER.

While I agree during battles I don't want to accidently click a companion and start a round of dialogue, I feel a core part in Hawke's interaction with his/her companions is missing.

It also doesn't help that the companions this time around are more...one dimensional...with few exceptions.  Some characters are so one sided to the point of them being silly.
[/quote]
Completely agree. I actually found Aveline & Varric far more interesting this time around than the LI's, they seemed to have more depth to them and that really shouldn't be happening in a competently crafted game. Myself, I just felt relegated to a backseat role during most conversations, even moreso when Hawke's lines did not correspond with what I was selecting.


[quote]ximena wrote...
I haven't really tried every romance in DA2, but so far... the romances doesn't have that same ugh... "effect" that really pulls you in. Closest would have been Anders in terms of "OHNOF*CKWHY" but the Morrigan romance is still more memorable than any of the romances. That's just my opinion. XD
[/quote]
I thought before I played that the DA2 romances would fall into a similar trap as Mass Effect's (player disinterest) and sadly that's turned out to be the case. There's just something missing, or rather lots of small things - a lack of attention to detail that unfortunately marrs the whole thing. The ones I've seen so far disappointed me and I'm not particularly inclined the investigate the others at this point.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
The party banter is hilarious, Isabela romance has to be second favorite romance in Dragon Age and one of the best ones in any Bioware game (Morri's hold the throne though).
[/quote]
Isabela & Aveline's banters were good, the Aveline matchmaker questline (with Isabela tagging along likewise.) Varric had some good moments but aside from that I felt the banter was weaker than in Origins.  The Isabela romance though is a mere shadow of the Origins offerings imo.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
The whole family dinamic was truly well presented and resulted in some truly emotional moments (stopping the "White Lillies" killer has to be one of the darkest quests I've ever seen from Bioware).
[/quote]
Gamlen played his part well in the early stages, the white lillies plotline and resolution was definitely one of the highlights though the game didn't evoke much of an emotional response from me.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
The ending was  also surprisingly satisfactory, especially since I didn't get gaidered
(or "sheryled" as the case would be) and makes me wonder what the  significance of Leliana's comment on how both Hawke and the Warden disappeared is. Does that mean we may see them again at some point?
[/quote]
Tbh, it looked to me like they'd run out of money/time and just decided to end it there. It was an middling ending to what was an overall good but not great game, like Origins the potential is there to do something with the ending but it remains to be seen if BioWare will actually do anything with it.


[quote]Swoo wrote...
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Btw, how many references to Morrigan, OGB or Witch Hunt did you guys and gals find? The only references to Morrigan were when talking to Flemeth after she rescued you and your family and later again on Sundermont. Anders also mentons how 2 mages helped save Ferelden from the Blight and that one of them (Morrigan) was a apostate. But that's all.
[/quote]
I dunno, I quit from boredom and bugs before completing the game but only saw the two you named; One throwaway comment from Flemeth and one mention from Anders about an apostate helping the Hero. Maybe something was in deeper than Act III, but I don't know.
[/quote]
There's barely any - one from Anders, two from Drunk Alistair I think, two from Flemeth according to the talk table. That's it, nothing romance specific or related to DR/WH though.


[quote]Swoo wrote...
What, you mean you don't like the hit the heart button two times, get a sex cutscene, then everything is back to same old, same old with you struggling to learn anything new past the official docu's and character intro's in the game?!

Morrigan and Alistair both trump the holy hell out of anything DA2 has to offer.
[/quote]
^This. I think people will have a retrospective down the line once teh awesomeness of the cinematic approach/honeymoon period has worn off and they'll see it for what it actually is. Well, some people will. It's not a bad game, it just doesn't match up to its predecessor in the areas that matter.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I got those. I was thinking maybe Merril would say something or we'd learn something more of note about the Eluvians but that plot really didn't go anywhere in that regard, which was annoying.
[/quote]
I did like how the scene on Sundermount played out with Merrill - the boss fight and events during it were pretty good. Though I'm not sure if I saw her quest to its end because after the scene with the elves outside, there was never any follow up or closure with  Merrill or the Eluvian. Probably got hit by some kind of bug...


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, like so much else in DA2 its all about the illusion of choice. Really, thats one of my big complaints about the game- nothing Hawke does really has any diverging consequences- outside of your sibling. Thats really about it. Sure you can seemingly affect the fates of some of the companions, but well, DA2 shows that those only last so long as the writers feel like it.
[/quote]
Indeed and it goes hand in hand with BW being encouraged to get DA2 out the door asap. It is by and large a highly linear game with nearly no meaningful choices and consequences boil down to varying which raving lunatic chooses to ambush you in the Wounded Coast.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I mean, outside of maybe companion fates and the end choice who you sided with, what flags would carry forward into any hypothetical DA3? Honestly, compared to Origins I can't think of any- especially if you're not playing as Hawke.
[/quote]
None in all honesty.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I thought that whole storyline was crap TBQH. The concept had great potential, and the reaction at the end was great (and something the series lacked), but the story itself? Terrible. Could have gone with something else entirely.
[/quote]
It certainly wasn't the "more epic than Origins" that we were told. It felt like a sidestory, primarilly because there was no end goal or overarching player impetus - especially considering how the game's opening sequence is about attaining money and day to day struggles... it felt mundane really, interesting idea but it definitely did not reach the kind of scale it was reaching for with the ten year scope.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
So, what exactly is Flemeth referring to here? What is this "inevitable" thing she's thinking Morrigan has done? Is she referring to Morrigan having the Warden kill Flemeth? But that makes her statement a bit odd- almost as if DA2 Flemeth isn't the same person as DAO Flemeth, since wouldn't DA2 Flemeth have known for sure she was killed? Or is Flemeth referring to maybe Morrigan activating the Eluvian or doing the DR?
[/quote]
Bluntly, it's a cheap way to negate the DA:O choices regarding Flemeth. I took it to mean that the warden did kill Flemeth but she lives on (or at least part of her) thanks to Hawke's actions, but by that point I'd surmise they were two separate entities... Maybe like you said there's some kind of tie in with the many daughters of Flemeth, I dunno.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Then again, I wonder if this scene plays out any differently if you didn't kill Flemeth in Origins?
[/quote]
The DA2 import ditches all the Flemeth dead/alive & grimoire flags, so no.

On a slightly related note, did anyone encounter this in the game regarding Flemeth (text strings from the game):

There must still be a way to bring him back. I won't give Feynriel up to the demons!
The Keeper says the only one who might be able to help my Feynriel now is the asha'bellanar.
The Witch of the Wilds is my only hope. I must find her.


[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
Everybody else kind of sat in the background for me. Anders had an annoying personality 180 (justified, of course, due to Justice *rimshot*, but still annoying), Fenris was too broody (I'm the PC, only I am allowed to brood), and Aveline and Sebastian were, well, average.
[/quote]
Anders constant lectures on the plight of mages became tiresome for my mage Hawke late into the game, Fenris has some nice theme music and was somewhat interesting.


[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
Aside from the ones you mentioned, Brock found a creepy bit of dialog from Sandal that might refer to the OGB.
[/quote]
That was an interesting exchange. Sandal also had some comment about an old woman with a scary laugh watching him (Flemeth?) I did have an odd thought that Sandal was some sort of OGB from a previous Blight, but I'll leave it there...


[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
my favorite cameo in that respect is Alistair. He is just there to show his face, like saying "look, its really Dragon Age". Better they would have kept him out completely. He doesn't serve a purpose being there, and considering the new king of Ferelden
[/quote]
If they're going to do something with the rising tensions between Orlais/Ferelden thing, maybe his cameo was justifiied.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, the only reason I had Hawke try to help fix was shameless metagaming on my part hoping we'[d learn something about it or how they worked or where they lead to. Instead you don't learn anything about it no matter what you decide.

Oh, and more Gaider teasing of the DR/OGB/Morrigan on the DA2 forums:
[/quote]
Same reasoning here as well. And no, Brock - don't frustrate me with Gaider quotes.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I have the bad feeling that if DA2 has lagging sales (which after the initial rush and lift from preorders, I'm guessing it will, given all the other games coming out this year), they'll decide to try and toss Morrigan in some DLC to stir up interest. And of course it won't be given the attention its due.
[/quote]
I can actually picture this happening. Let's hope not though...


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
Not to mention it'll probably be BUGGED beyond belief, ignoring either the romance or the DR or both, and we'll be trying to find a way to alter the plot states via something or other...
[/quote]
Par the course for the Morri thread


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...

Well, it could be that the Warden ended up dead, which would mean that they're correct in the Warden being done, while still being able to advance Morrigan and the OGB... My prediction is that Flemeth kills both Hawke and the Warden (if he didn't do the US), as she sees that both have served their purpose (the Warden's being to father the OGB, Hawke's to start the war that wipes out the Circle and Chantry). Of course, I could be wrong.
[/quote]
But taking Flemeth's speech for what it is in DA2, does Flemeth have the raw power to take down Warden/Hawke in combat, WH and Flemeth's speech in DA2 are definitely pushing the trickster angle and we already know the warden can take her down in dragon form. Although they could angle it that her host body at that time limited her power... or something.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
One thing that I think is going on is that the writers/producers seem to be winging this on the fly. I think there were quite a few 11th hour changes made to DA2, even if it was being conceptualized before Origins was released.
[/quote]
I want to know what happened to all these possible endings the game was supposed to have...

[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
I am going to rage so damn hard if that's the route they take, although I don't dispute that it's one of the cards they're more likely to play.

Just a colossal waste of story potential to do so, imo.
[/quote]
Haha, I have a whole host of possible rage triggers regarding this, so you shall not be alone should this come to pass.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 19 mars 2011 - 07:53 .

[Glorfindel709]

.. I made it into one of Terras' epic long posts... not only once, but twice!

And honestly, I do agree with you that the Arishok is better, I just take my little revenge on KoP and his PC of winning Morrigan romance stuff by being confrontational to whatever he says, usually in an amusing or ineffective manner...

Oh the trials of a console player.

[Xephyr829]

@ Brockololly Do you mind if I make a topic about Morrigan being in Cassandra's book on the DA2 forums ?