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THE Morrigan Discussion and Research Thread *Infested with Bugs Yet Again!*


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#1326
Barbarossa2010

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Terra_Ex wrote...

I think that Gaider or another dev could have come out and said at a much earlier time (ie: when you first posted your feelings on the ending, which I recall he responded to) that the Dark Ritual was... abridged due to scheduling and it wasn't supposed to have transpired as it did. The first I heard of it was several months after your complaints and even then only by chance through Aimo's comic. Simply stating that earlier on would've done much to assuage Morri-fans end-game annoyance.

I'm assuming that had at least degree of acknowledgement of your romance with her been made during that scene, replete with additional dialog paths for a romancing/friendly warden, you would have felt like less of a chump?


Absolutely.  Even if she had to leave. 

Had the romance actually been acknowledged in some meaningful way to clearly separate that Warden from the non-romancing or oppositional Warden, and had she been presented as truly struggling with her decision, then it might have made all the difference in the world.  She didn't appear to struggle at all.  She was just coldly professional, to the point that she could have been viewed as sinister and a threat.  Definitely the converse of what they seemed to be shooting for per Gaider's guarded comments and the comic. It was the difference between realism vs. obviously contrived.

#1327
blademaster7

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Terra_Ex wrote...

Stolen from Blademaster's original post :devil::

http://img204.images...10032214514.jpg


You sneaky witch-thief <_<

I remember posting that a while back... but I couldn't recall the exact page. This thread is huge :P

#1328
Shade of Wolf

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Terra_Ex wrote...



My pleasure, it's just a shame console players will likely never get to experience these scenes & fixes.

Gosh way to rub it in lolz

Modifié par Shade of Wolf, 27 avril 2010 - 09:05 .


#1329
blademaster7

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What kind of epilogues are you guys getting in Awakening? I'm just curious.



What happens if you marry Anora and you have a romance active(Leliana, Morrigan,or Zevran)? Do you return to Anora and then disappear alone?

#1330
elemme

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I think that Gaider or another dev could have come out and said at a much earlier time (ie: when you first posted your feelings on the ending, which I recall he responded to) that the Dark Ritual was... abridged due to scheduling and it wasn't supposed to have transpired as it did. The first I heard of it was several months after your complaints and even then only by chance through Aimo's comic. Simply stating that earlier on would've done much to assuage Morri-fans end-game annoyance.

I'm assuming that had at least degree of acknowledgement of your romance with her been made during that scene, replete with additional dialog paths for a romancing/friendly warden, you would have felt like less of a chump?
[/quote]

Damn,  I am never going to figure out how this quote thing works.

For me the whole game had become the winning of Morrigan against the backdrop of the blight.  There are certainly arguements that work to get me to do the DR.

The arguements that were attempted.
This will save your life at the cost of a huge unknown. (bargain)
Dont let Loghain be a hero and steal your thunder. (persuade)
If you dont do it,  I will get someone else to. (threaten)

These do nothing to motivate my warden.  In fact the threat convinces me to make sure I am the warden who dies.

The questions I wanted to ask
Am I talking to Flemeth or Morrigan?  both litteral (are you possessed) and figurative (have you become your mother)
Why cant I come with you?
If I knew everything you do would I agree with you? (this statement will never happen in a game but I always had the feeling Morrigan dosent lie)

Arguements that would have worked for me.
Help me redeem the old god like you have redeemed so many others.
Please help me.
If you love me trust me.

pretty simple

I think it would have changed my whole end of game experience.

Modifié par elemme, 27 avril 2010 - 10:30 .


#1331
elemme

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[quote]elemme wrote...


I think that Gaider or another dev could have come out and said at a much earlier time (ie: when you first posted your feelings on the ending, which I recall he responded to) that the Dark Ritual was... abridged due to scheduling and it wasn't supposed to have transpired as it did. The first I heard of it was several months after your complaints and even then only by chance through Aimo's comic. Simply stating that earlier on would've done much to assuage Morri-fans end-game annoyance.

I'm assuming that had at least degree of acknowledgement of your romance with her been made during that scene, replete with additional dialog paths for a romancing/friendly warden, you would have felt like less of a chump?
[/quote]

Damn,  I am never going to figure out how this quote thing works. the above is from Terra_Ex

For me the whole game had become the winning of Morrigan against the backdrop of the blight.  There are certainly arguements that work to get me to do the DR.

The arguements that were attempted.
This will save your life at the cost of a huge unknown. (bargain)
Dont let Loghain be a hero and steal your thunder. (persuade)
If you dont do it,  I will get someone else to. (threaten)

These do nothing to motivate my warden.  In fact the threat convinces me to make sure I am the warden who dies.

The questions I wanted to ask
Am I talking to Flemeth or Morrigan?  both litteral (are you possessed) and figurative (have you become your mother)
Why cant I come with you?
If I knew everything you do would I agree with you? (this statement will never happen in a game but I always had the feeling Morrigan dosent lie)

Arguements that would have worked for me.
Help me redeem the old god like you have redeemed so many others.
Please help me.
If you love me trust me.

pretty simple

I think it would have changed my whole end of game experience.[/quote]

#1332
Guest_Trust_*

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I think that Gaider or another dev could have come out and said at a much earlier time (ie: when you first posted your feelings on the ending, which I recall he responded to) that the Dark Ritual was... abridged due to scheduling and it wasn't supposed to have transpired as it did. The first I heard of it was several months after your complaints and even then only by chance through Aimo's comic. Simply stating that earlier on would've done much to assuage Morri-fans end-game annoyance.

I'm assuming that had at least degree of acknowledgement of your romance with her been made during that scene, replete with additional dialog paths for a romancing/friendly warden, you would have felt like less of a chump?



For a character so well written and who requires so much time consumption in order to figure her out, I was very disapointed when I first found out about his. They should have delayed the game a bit further. If they didn’t present Morrigan the way they planned her during the DR, then they have completely ruined her character and/or romance.
Appearing so cold and barely showing that she cared about the relationship between her and the PC is what ruined the whole romance for me. I know she cares but not showing it to him makes it all sound bulls**t to me. My Warden did agree to the ritual and if his story continues in DA2 I seriously doubt I'll want him and Morrigan to be together again. The main thing I’m concerned about is finding out the secret between her and Flemeth, and also in seeing his child. Whatever tragedy happens then will happen. I wouldn’t be much surprised if the warden has to kill both Morrigan and the child.

Modifié par AwesomeEffect2, 28 avril 2010 - 01:28 .


#1333
fenderstrat6

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I agree with u guys totally on this thread. kind of hard to believe an yet it's not, that a incomitant what ever u what to call'em, would consider cutting up the DR an morrigan the central character, just to save some time. an the pc felling some bitterness the way the DR when down. an i know how those big companys love there money. the romancing male warden's can atleast get some kind of satisfaction now thx to Terra_Ex an the other modder's that were helping. thank u morg will be in DA2 but first the warden has to investigate a tale of a small family of Griffons. later ppl

#1334
Vicious

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The game really f--ed up in terms of what actually happens in the game vs. what the devs and writers say.



Example: Loghain is not meant to be an obviously evil figure. According to Dave G he simply thought the battle was unwinnable and decided to save what he could.



IN THE GAME: All Loghain needs is a moustache to twirl. The second you meet him he's obviously up to no good and acts COMPLETELY evil up until you recruit him, where he basically becomes a completely different character vs. what you've experienced in the game to that point.





So the game storytelling failed on many levels. That's just one example. This... PROBLEM with Morrigan is yet another failure.



Dave G's comic [and his many comments strewn about] obviously lead to one thinking that asking for the ritual took a lot out of Morrigan... she felt she did what she had to do, and she took no pleasure in hurting her friends, nor are her intentions evil.





IN THE GAME: Your romance means little. She's coldly business-like to the point where people REFUSE to trust her. And I don't blame them, because it's so POORLY PRESENTED. Like what the dev's were aiming for with Loghain [a 3 dimensional fallen hero who could be redeemed] you instead get a witch who acts like she doesn't care about anyone or anything besides getting what she wants.





DAO was a good game, but epic fail in some storytelling bits that just don't jive with what was intended. I can wish they spent more time on the climax and deneoument of the game, but it's pointless.





I just hope they give DA2 more love and care, story wise.

#1335
Swoo

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I don't believe that at all, in fact my first two playthrough's I struggled with deciding his fate at the Landsmeet (one time just flatout ending him, the other time doing it after Alister's freakout) because it becomes so apparent that he's the whole 'paved with good intentions' archtype. 

When you meet him at camp you don't know what to make of him. He seems ok other than the shifty face they give him, and he sounds very reasonable when coming up with the war plan, but when he ditches out during the battle in Ostagar you're convinced he's the devil. The two or so little cutscenes you get while playing the game seem to reinforce that, then you get to Landsmeet.

It becomes very apparent that he wasn't trying to off Calian just to get the throne, in fact looking back he did everything he could short of kidnapping to keep him off the front lines. At the Landsmeet he really knows what he's saying; as a person, he's kind of crap, as a ruler in wartime you don't want your buddy, you want an SOB who will do whatever it takes to keep his people alive and that's exactly how he approached it. Sure he wasn't perfect, his downfall was of course a total ends justify the means approach coupled with his lack of respect for the Grey Wardens, Orlesians, and belief that the sky was falling (a true Blight).

I fully expected to walk into Denerim to kill the Devil and he actually made me regret doing it by the end of the Landsmeet. It was a very good play on Bioware's part.

The Morrigan romance is another one I feel was done well, but it's just simply incomplete. If this was it, we will never close these threads with the originating Warden, then we were cheated plain and simple. If this was the hook for DA2's setup, then it could be damn near masterful. You take a Witch from the wilds who only looks out for herself, and over the course of the game you get her to open up and actually care about someone other than herself (I thought the 'Even if there were 100 Grey Wardens in the keep tonight, I'd want [The Dark Ritual] to be with you', before the final battle to be really telling) and to even question if her ways are the right way of doing things. Sure, she never came out and said she was wrong, but you can't tell me the constant stumbling here and there in conversations and regret she shows midway through when she knows what she has to do, but knows it's going to suck to do so, hell, even asking for help when the Morrigan you met at the beginning of the game would have rather charged in blindly and just dealt with it showed growth.

That does hit the snag though. Everything through DA:O was amazingly done, even the total sucker punch at the end, and end's on the low note of you giving up everything to track her down. If there is closure in a future game (and has been pointed out by other people, with how Bioware does choices, you could have a 'selfish good' closure, or a 'I love you but you have to die' kind of meeting), perfect experience, or they can totally drop the ball on it.



Vicious wrote...

Example: Loghain is not meant to be an obviously evil figure. According to Dave G he simply thought the battle was unwinnable and decided to save what he could.

IN THE GAME: All Loghain needs is a moustache to twirl. The second you meet him he's obviously up to no good and acts COMPLETELY evil up until you recruit him, where he basically becomes a completely different character vs. what you've experienced in the game to that point.
.



#1336
Master Shiori

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blademaster7 wrote...

What kind of epilogues are you guys getting in Awakening? I'm just curious.

What happens if you marry Anora and you have a romance active(Leliana, Morrigan,or Zevran)? Do you return to Anora and then disappear alone?


I had a HNM romance Leliana and marry Anora. Leli broke up with me after Landsmeet but at post-coronation I managed to convince her to stay as my mistress.

Sadly, only my marriage to Anora got acknowledged in Awakening. My Warden returned to Anora and later disappeared from Ferelden for unknown reasons.

Leliana romance never got mentioned in Awakening.

#1337
blademaster7

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That's because Leliana is bugged as well. If you marry Anora she'll break up with you and her approval wil change to friendly... same crap as Morrigan's break up...

If she's hardened that is not supposed to happen.

#1338
Master Shiori

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She is always hardened in all my games.



Sadly, this would appear to be another romance bug.




#1339
blademaster7

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Do you have ejoslin's Zevran mod? She fixed it.



Her dialogue at the coronation is still bugged though.

#1340
Master Shiori

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Installed the mod today so my female mage can romance Zev.



Didn't know it also fixes Leliana's bugs.

#1341
blademaster7

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Not all of them are fixed... but yes, ejoslin fixed a couple of bugs regarding her views on a political marriage(Anora/Alistair) is she's hardened.

That's what I'm planning to do with my current PC(MHN solo). Marry Anora and keep Leliana as my mistress. :P

I killed Flemeth and the High Dragon btw(lv 17). Gaxkang is the only boss left. He raped me pretty badly. I need some spell resist gear before I try my luck again.

Modifié par blademaster7, 28 avril 2010 - 11:59 .


#1342
Master Shiori

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You're actually soloing the whole game?

Damn, now I'm impressed!

Good luck with the Archdemon and the battle of Denerim. Spellcasters there can really ruin your day with those curses of mortality, crushing prisons or misdirection hexes.. >.<

Modifié par Master Shiori, 28 avril 2010 - 01:24 .


#1343
Shade of Wolf

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blademaster7 wrote...

Not all of them are fixed... but yes, ejoslin fixed a couple of bugs regarding her views on a political marriage(Anora/Alistair) is she's hardened.

That's what I'm planning to do with my current PC(MHN solo). Marry Anora and keep Leliana as my mistress. :P

I killed Flemeth and the High Dragon btw(lv 17). Gaxkang is the only boss left. He raped me pretty badly. I need some spell resist gear before I try my luck again.

Lol I just cast mana clash on him (on nightmare btw) and then crushing prison and he died lol.

#1344
blademaster7

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Shade of Wolf wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Not all of them are fixed... but yes, ejoslin fixed a couple of bugs regarding her views on a political marriage(Anora/Alistair) is she's hardened.

That's what I'm planning to do with my current PC(MHN solo). Marry Anora and keep Leliana as my mistress. :P

I killed Flemeth and the High Dragon btw(lv 17). Gaxkang is the only boss left. He raped me pretty badly. I need some spell resist gear before I try my luck again.

Lol I just cast mana clash on him (on nightmare btw) and then crushing prison and he died lol.

I'm soloing on nightmare with a Rogue. No mana clash for me.

I'll just have to buy equipment with spell resist and fight him again.

#1345
Barbarossa2010

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AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

...Appearing so cold and barely showing that she cared about the relationship between her and the PC is what ruined the whole romance for me. I know she cares but not showing it to him makes it all sound bulls**t to me. My Warden did agree to the ritual and if his story continues in DA2 I seriously doubt I'll want him and Morrigan to be together again. The main thing I’m concerned about is finding out the secret between her and Flemeth, and also in seeing his child. Whatever tragedy happens then will happen. I wouldn’t be much surprised if the warden has to kill both Morrigan and the child.


I'm definitely with you here.  Morrigan as a character, as she seemed to be progressing, would have been fine: but Morrigan as is interpreted and presented later in the game...no thanks.  Her unwillingness to offer any good reason or true purpose of the Ritual, not to mention, even satisfactorily acknowledging a romance just screamed CONTRIVED PLOT HOOK. Whatever happens is going to happen in the future: an anti-Chantry blitz - yawn; use the child for evil and you have to kill her: whatever...she has shown a willingness to enslave innocents so that's not beyond plausible; possessed by Flemeth - ho hum; save the world - we'll see; comes back to you and pledges her love then dies somehow - predicted.  My Warden's pretty much done with her not so much because of her character, but the unrealistic way she was used to snare player interest in the story.

To me, the dev team way overplayed their hand on her.  Morrigan's (far from coming across with depth) was harsh, cold and had only the purpose in the end to hook straight male players (speculating that that is the largest player demographic) and, to me, it failed.  It only pissed me off and diverted me elsewhere for a more satisfying game experience.

Truth be told, at this point, I'm much more interested, and much more on edge, about my Shepard/Tali/Liara love triangle (which really shouldn't be a triangle at this point, but that's another matter) and how that's going to play out in ME3.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 28 avril 2010 - 05:52 .


#1346
Terra_Ex

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

...Appearing so cold and barely showing that she cared about the relationship between her and the PC is what ruined the whole romance for me. I know she cares but not showing it to him makes it all sound bulls**t to me. My Warden did agree to the ritual and if his story continues in DA2 I seriously doubt I'll want him and Morrigan to be together again. The main thing I’m concerned about is finding out the secret between her and Flemeth, and also in seeing his child. Whatever tragedy happens then will happen. I wouldn’t be much surprised if the warden has to kill both Morrigan and the child.


I'm definitely with you here.  Morrigan as a character, as she seemed to be progressing, would have been fine: but Morrigan as is interpreted and presented later in the game...no thanks.  Her unwillingness to offer any good reason or true purpose of the Ritual, not to mention, even satisfactorily acknowledging a romance just screamed CONTRIVED PLOT HOOK. Whatever happens is going to happen in the future: an anti-Chantry blitz - yawn; use the child for evil and you have to kill her: whatever...she has shown a willingness to enslave innocents so that's not beyond plausible; possessed by Flemeth - ho hum; save the world - we'll see; comes back to you and pledges her love then dies somehow - predicted.  My Warden's pretty much done with her not so much because of her character, but the unrealistic way she was used to snare player interest in the story.

To me, the dev team way overplayed their hand on her.  Morrigan's (far from coming across with depth) was harsh, cold and had only the purpose in the end to hook straight male players (speculating that that is the largest player demographic) and, to me, it failed.  It only pissed me off and diverted me elsewhere for a more satisfying game experience.


What's interesting with this is the shift in that one scene is so drastic that people even postulated theories about Flemeth having already possessed her before that scene. After working on this project and in light of Gaider's comments though, I'm attributing the issue to either poor project management / issues with the scheduling. As I said earlier, I would encourage Bioware to put more consideration into the impact these cuts have on the product as a whole before they chop and change another late-game scene. You can write the most fantastic story in the world but screw it up at the end, for whatever reason, and the player is going to walk away unhappy. Swoo summed things up fairly nicely in his above post - the Dark Ritual as a concept is fine. Morrigan leaving is fine. Everything regarding her character development over the course of the game till that moment was fantastic. The presentation of that scene is however a far cry from what it could and should have been.


Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Truth be told, at this point, I'm much more interested, and much more on edge, about my Shepard/Tali/Liara love triangle (which really shouldn't be a triangle at this point, but that's another matter) and how that's going to play out in ME3.


Well, I wouldn't go that far, ME's romances are fairly underwhelming.

v108 is available now, which fixes a few more things.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 28 avril 2010 - 07:03 .


#1347
Hammer_Of_God

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GAGH!
-sputters, gasps.... and finally drags herself to the end-

OMG, took me 2 days to get through the whole thread since the last time I posted here (which was about pg 10)! :crying:
Now if that aint a sure sign of devotion & dedication to Morri, gawd knows what is!!!! :wub:

Wow guys, so much has been going on since I last looked in! Glad to see Morri's finally getting all the luv & attention she deserves :D

Terra - you rock!!!! Thanks sooooo much for the mod! Really, you are awesome dude!
I happen to have just started a new playthrough, will be downloading it asap.
Anyone have a link to ejoslin's ZDF mod ? He's a cool bud - wouldnt mind having his friendship patched up as well while I'm at it...

To everyone else who helped Terra find the bugs, like Blademaster & co, thank you!

And I'm stumped - after abandoning Awakening half way through the game over a month ago (cos I found out I wouldnt get my 'Warden runs off to find his dark sorceress' slide, along with encountering waaaay too many other FRAKING bugs to have any incentive to complete the damned expac), that there still isnt a patch 1.04 out, let alone any BW dev response to the issues raised in this 50+ pg thread...
-shakes head-
Pitiful really.... <_<

Ah well, until that damned patch finally surfaces, I can atleast enjoy my new DAO playthrough with Terra's mod installed...
(there were some things I wasnt to thrilled about with my first canon HNM playthrough, plan on fixing em up, along with enjoying more uber Morri-ness for him, this time around) :lol:

#1348
Addai

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Hammer_Of_God wrote...
Anyone have a link to ejoslin's ZDF mod ? He's a cool bud - wouldnt mind having his friendship patched up as well while I'm at it...

clicky

#1349
Hammer_Of_God

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@Addai67 - You have my thanks ;)

#1350
Barbarossa2010

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Terra_Ex wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

...Appearing so cold and barely showing that she cared about the relationship between her and the PC is what ruined the whole romance for me. I know she cares but not showing it to him makes it all sound bulls**t to me. My Warden did agree to the ritual and if his story continues in DA2 I seriously doubt I'll want him and Morrigan to be together again. The main thing I’m concerned about is finding out the secret between her and Flemeth, and also in seeing his child. Whatever tragedy happens then will happen. I wouldn’t be much surprised if the warden has to kill both Morrigan and the child.


I'm definitely with you here.  Morrigan as a character, as she seemed to be progressing, would have been fine: but Morrigan as is interpreted and presented later in the game...no thanks.  Her unwillingness to offer any good reason or true purpose of the Ritual, not to mention, even satisfactorily acknowledging a romance just screamed CONTRIVED PLOT HOOK. Whatever happens is going to happen in the future: an anti-Chantry blitz - yawn; use the child for evil and you have to kill her: whatever...she has shown a willingness to enslave innocents so that's not beyond plausible; possessed by Flemeth - ho hum; save the world - we'll see; comes back to you and pledges her love then dies somehow - predicted.  My Warden's pretty much done with her not so much because of her character, but the unrealistic way she was used to snare player interest in the story.

To me, the dev team way overplayed their hand on her.  Morrigan's (far from coming across with depth) was harsh, cold and had only the purpose in the end to hook straight male players (speculating that that is the largest player demographic) and, to me, it failed.  It only pissed me off and diverted me elsewhere for a more satisfying game experience.


What's interesting with this is the shift in that one scene is so drastic that people even postulated theories about Flemeth having already possessed her before that scene. After working on this project and in light of Gaider's comments though, I'm attributing the issue to either poor project management / issues with the scheduling. As I said earlier, I would encourage Bioware to put more consideration into the impact these cuts have on the product as a whole before they chop and change another late-game scene. You can write the most fantastic story in the world but screw it up at the end, for whatever reason, and the player is going to walk away unhappy. Swoo summed things up fairly nicely in his above post - the Dark Ritual as a concept is fine. Morrigan leaving is fine. The presentation of that scene is however a far cry from what it could and should have been.


Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Truth be told, at this point, I'm much more interested, and much more on edge, about my Shepard/Tali/Liara love triangle (which really shouldn't be a triangle at this point, but that's another matter) and how that's going to play out in ME3.


Well, I wouldn't go that far, ME's romances are fairly underwhelming.



The presentation was everything in that pivotal shift.  Endgame definitely requires due diligence and the proper attention or you risk losing the player.  And yes, the number of players speculating that Morri could have been possessed at that point only reinforces the unnatural portrayal of the Ritual.  Maybe she was possessed BTW. 

And true on the ME romances, but there is something to be said for delivering simplicity in a satisfying manner rather than deliverying complexity poorly.