16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sadly I don't think Morrigan would be too enthusiastic about them

Meh, she doesn't have to be enthusiastic to have people like me force them upon her... (at your behest of course... )

[KnightofPhoenix]

:wub::wub::wub::wub:

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UFOash wrote...
Aren't the ones she wears in-game heeled?

I just checked. They are lightly heeled yes. I was thinking longer heels wwould look good on her.

I agree. Maybe 4 inches or so. Maybe a spike heel would suit her.

[Brockololly]

First, Morrigan the Helpful Chantry Sister! (Oh no! It must not be Morrigan is she isn't in her robes!)


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Ah, I think I've downgraded my DA investment in the wake of this sequel, or rather BW has done it for me. When BioWare released DA:O I was hoping that it was the beginning of series that embraced all that was good about the classic CRPGs and brought it in line with modern expectations, sadly DA2 is not the step forward I was hoping for.[/quote]

True enough.
Considering how much it seems the DA team is now just miming what Mass Effect does, it will be interesting to see if ME3 actually goes to the effort of injecting more RPG elements back into the game there. I'm not expecting much there, but how ME3 goes is likely how I suspect how DA2 goes, sadly.

Thing is, if you go by interviews like this one with Darrah from December, they don't seem to really care about making "RPGs" anymore, just "interactive stories":

[quote]
ZAM: You've been here for a long time then, and you've seen the  evolution of BioWare as a game development company. BioWare does have a  significant 'style' from a game play perspective. How would you  characterize this evolution? More specifically, your flagship games  these days are Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 - two very fast-paced RPG  games. If you've looked at previous games like Neverwinter Nights or  Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, you can certainly see the  difference in speed and 'action' potential. Are you happy with this  shift to faster paced game play?

Mark: I think I am happy with it. BioWare is known for making RPGs, but what  we're really trying to make are interactive narratives. At the moment,  the interactive narrative is associated with RPGs, but I don't think it  has to be. So we've moved, in some cases, to more accessible game play,  in the case of Mass Effect, or we've streamlined certain processes and  experiences in other cases. So it's not that we're dumbing down our  games, we're simply making our stories more accessible to as many people as possible.

ZAM: So I guess in the market, you've been typified as  'sticking' to RPGs, but if you were to talk about yourselves, you would  simply say that you stick to creating stories, and you'll stick with  whatever gaming genre best conveys that story.

Mark:
That's exactly right. The most commonly accepted genre tied in with  storytelling is RPGs right now, but everything is becoming more  narrative in the industry. I think we're in a strong position because  this is something we know how to do. This also means that the appetite  for narrative games is growing.

ZAM: So you wouldn't be afraid to go into first-person shooters directly?

Mark: Yeah, although I think there is some danger in moving to some of the very  heavily populated genres, like first-person shooters. This is simply  because there are some big players there who have been doing  first-person shooters for a lot of years. What we would end up doing is  competing head-to-head on game play and narrative. I think we could win  one of those fights, but it would be much more difficult for us to win  the other.[/quote]

Some of those pre-release interviews seem pretty freakin' bad looking back, but there you go- BioWare just wants to make interactive movies:(


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The game didn't "thrust" me into the role of Hawke because ultimately he/she is a nobody, they are not the equivalent of Shepard, they have neither the drive nor impetus that was formed during the Warden's Origin prologue and the lack of which culminated in the rather lacklustre Act 3.[/quote]
Unless there is more in store for Hawke, I really don't see why Hawke's story even needed to be told. You could have summed it up in a codex entry or had Gaider just write a book about it to tie into DA3's inevitable big mage/chantry war. And you're right- as for Hawke himself/herself, he's just an onlooker, a bystander to the events that happen in the game- he's not the catalyst for any of the changes, just some bum that stumbled upon being in the right place at the right time.

Maybe if there were some branching or divergent choices in the story it might feel like hawke actually did anything worth a damn, but thats just not the case.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Just how effective would that scene have been if Alistair just didn't give a sh*t/wasn't there during the warden's defining moment and just let a female warden kill herself. It's a perfect example in my eyes of why stuff like this should transfer and persist across the titles, if the Warden's defining moment was slaying the archdemon, then we can say Morri's is still to come (based on what we've been told) and having to witness Morrigan's apparently world-changing moment without the warden being present (and that's not even getting into the OGB possibilities and the warden's obvious involvement in that plot), yeah, missed opportunity doesn't even begin to cover it. [/quote]

Excellent point.
With one of the big problems in DA2 (IMO) being the lack of reason to care for anything thats happening, lacking the Warden whenever its Morrigan's time to take centerstage would sort of make the whole thing fall flat.

Honestly, for all the talk of DA2 being a "personal" story, I just totally disagree. Since I never really fealt much of a connection with Hawke, it was more like the game telling me "Hey! This is your family! You should care about them!" But that sort of enforced relationship doesn't really work- a player created one works far better. And quite frankly, its why I feel that the Origins crew was more of a family unit- dysfunctional as it may have been- than the DA2 companions and Hawke's family. In part, thats to do with player initiated interactions granting a greater sense of agency as well.

But take it if you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with the OGB- hell, thats a damned family by most accounts! And what makes that more effective than a BioWare sanctioned Hawke family, is that its been created by the agency of the player, first and foremost! So naturally, I'm going to give a damn to a much greater degree about what happens there- its the notion of exclusivity almost really with Morrigan, the OGB and going through the Eluvian. The fact that not everyone made those choices, but that those choices were available to you and you took them. It gives you a greater sense of investment and engagement knowing that there were other viable paths available, but you've taken this one.

That goes for any choice driven game really and why (IMO) DA2 falls flat- DA2 is exceedingly linear; it doesn't even do a good job of giving you the illusion of choice. Whereas take New Vegas for instance, I love that because even if you go NCR all the way, you know that there are 2 other, completely fleshed out and viable choices for you that have been uniquely crafted should you want to do something different. So even if I don't choose those routes, it enriches the overall game experience.

So if Morrigan's conclusion or big story moment were to come and the Warden is for whatever reason absent, well, there is a good chance thats maybe due to BioWare swooping in and snatching up all that agency that they've built up via allowing for seemingly meaningful choices with respect to Morrigan and the OGB thus far. Like its been said, none of this all matters really if they plunk a crappy ending on it or pull an Anders 180 on Morrigan.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I've talked about making everything a cutscene with you before, that issue remains a dismal failure, they should be reserved for hard-hitting parts of the game, or setting the mood of a particular scene - the current implementation just completely detaches the player from the experience and my genuine involvement in most scenes was tenuous at best courtesy of the design decisions made for this iteration.[/quote]

Maybe I've made this analogy before, but its almost like how Jurassic Park made use of CG. It was revolutionary for movies at the time. And what followed? Seemingly every movie tried to use CG special effects whether they really needed them or not, and they often looked terrible. Or take George Lucas and the prequels and CG- was it really necessary for Yoda to flip around in Episode 2 like a spider monkey on PCP? 

It just gets to the issue with BioWare's insistence on cinematic storytelling and voice over everything how, just because you have the ability to do something, doesn't make it a good idea. There is such a thing as knowing your limits and working within, and embracing those limits. Case in point, you go back to Jurassic Park- sure they used CG for the dinosaurs. But they also used a load of animatronic practical effects too. I just don't think that given the sacrifices you have to make in other areas given you lack an infinite budget, that player VO for a supposedly choice driven RPG is practical. Certainly not with how DA2 did it anyway.

And to the point of every interaction being a cutscene, when you do that its overkill and essentially desensitizes you to the moments that really call for a big cutscene. Cutscenes absolutely have their place, but reducing every interaction to some scripted event rips control and agency away from the player, which is not a good thing in an RPG where you're trying to make the player give a damn about things. Cutscenes shoulkd be reserved for your big moments- like a sex scene or a huge battle scene or a really important conversation, like the DR. Using them judiciously and not just carpet bombing the game with them "because we can" makes them more effective and memorable story telling tools. Its not unlike BG2's use of voice over in how not every line would be voiced- it made the voiced lines all the more memorable I think. And while I'm not advocating  a return to that, its imperative to strike a balance in a game in how you're presenting things- and I don't think DA2 does a very good job of that.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
It's a definite improvement over recent TW efforts imo, easily up there with Rome. Witcher 2 and Deus Ex are on the horizon now too, hopefully neither will disappoint and will tide me over till Skyrim.[/quote]
I am starting to get very excited for the Witcher 2- it looks absolutely gorgeous. While graphics aren't everything, BioWare should be ashamed that given their supposed AAA status, they can't make a game as good looking as that. Honestly, if they want to appeal to Mr. Mainstream Gamer, the easiest way to do that is with good visuals. Hell, thats why I got into RPGs- BG2's beautiful environments is what caught my eye and got me to look into the game. And TW2 seems to show that you can make a gritty looking fantasy game in a shade other than brown or beige.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I've seen some delightfully contrived and convoluted posts rationalising the apparent merits of the Hawke VO system yet ultimately I view it as needlessly complex, fitting a square peg in a round hole and a enormous waste of resources. For me it formed part of the feeling of "disconnection" that many players have reported and I'd be happy to see the back of it in future titles. [/quote]

To each their own in terms of player VO- I don't begrudge those that like it- but I've yet to see a game implement it that can make me really care about the PC with it. And it just seems to suck up massive amounts of resources that could likely be used to make for a more robust game. Ugh....I'll stop there before going off the deep end again.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
That said, Witch Hunt did a decent enough job of remedying this but it remains an issue to this day as wrapping up Morrigan's plotline without the warden's involvement renders WH meaningless both in my opinion and many others, both within this thread and outside it. [/quote]
Yup- I've likened all the loose plot threads and mysteries piling up to Lost in the past and DA2 did precisely nothing to resolve anything, but only add more questions to the mix. If there isn't some sort of point they're building towards with all this, then "meh" to you too BioWare. Its like George RR Martin even said recently of how he doesn't want A Song of Ice and Fire to end like Lost:
[quote]
"I kept watching it and I was fascinated. They'd introduce
these things and I thought that I knew where it was going. Then they'd
introduce and I'd rethink it. We watched it every week trying to figure it out, and as it
got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in
mind for the end. This end better pay off here.' And then I felt so
cheated when we got to the conclusion."[/quote]

Up to now, Morrigan and the Warden's story seems good. But its only as good as how it ends, quite frankly. And while the story of Origins may be over, that doesn't mean the Warden or Morrigan's story is over, given how BioWare has afforded player choice thus far.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I think most of us (Morri fans) did like the ending and how it tied in with the Eluvian from the Dalish Origin story. I think the bone of contention remains that if Morrigan's story continues and the warden is relegated to an offscreen, single line of dialogue reference or something like that, it pretty much undermines said ending along with the player choice that went with it and that's neither a apt way to conclude Morrigan's romance nor her story in the DA franchise... imo.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie][/quote]

Bingo.
BioWare has allowed for a great deal of player choice and built up player engagement with respect to the Warden and Morrigan. They want to talk "personal stories" and "family," well, hell, they pretty much let the player have their Warden create a family unit between Morrigan and the Old God Baby (or regular baby). To just toss that aside or undermine it by pulling an Anders 180 with Morrigan or a Rocks Fall, Warden dies type shift would just be BioWare tossing up the middle finger.



[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Because it supports our theory that the Morrigan romance is a calculated and ongoing experiment in the field of trolling on the part of BioWare. (It is part of a large number of long running Morri thread in-jokes - though we're no longer laughing at this point. This one centres on BioWare's inability to include any Morrigan related content that isn't afflicted by an (allegedly) unintended bug. BioWare shrewdly avoided this pitfall in DA2 by electing not to make reference to it at all.)[/quote]

I'm just waiting for the end to Morrigan's plot and it'll heavily feature the Warden in some ultra awesome ending and Morrigan will turn around and instead of her face it'll be good old Troll face, going "U MAD?" as a giant boulder  falls from no where and splatters the Warden. And BioWare will wonder why people get upset at that ending as it had plenty of cinematics and voice over, why wouldn't people like it?


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In  theory, I don't think I would mind playing a character that was in a  supporting role for a change. Like following a certain leader, or  something interesting like that. For instance, if by miracle the Warden  does come back, while I would definitely want him to be proactive, I  wouldn't mind him being in a supporting role vis a vis Morrigan, or the
OGB should he grow up. [/quote]
Absolutely- I think something like what you describe with Morrigan or the OGB and the Warden could work as you're already invested in those characters. So playing as the Warden even while maybe Morrigan is really center stage wouldn't be an issue. Its an issue for me in DA2 since I don't give a damn about who it is thats on center stage (like Terrorist Anders).  [/quote]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But my own main concern  right now is either making the Warden a minion with no brain instead of  being a pro-active player even if secondary, or not bringing him back  and making the whole "going through the mirror" choice (which was my  hardest choice) utterly meaningless and the OGB mostly unconsequential. 
[/quote]
Yeah, I would hate it if they just had the Warden come back in some shadowy cameo role following along after a Anders 180 type version of Morrigan where she has undergone some drastic character shift but they have the Eluvian Wardens just following along no matter what. I'd like to think my Warden went along with her to try and influence her in whatever she is doing and to be her equal, not just subservient. Cause if she gets up to something absolutely crazy, maybe my Warden wouldn't go along with it, as much as that might pain him. Given all the other choices afforded to the player thus far with Morrigan, it would suck to rip the agency out of your hands when everything is possibly coming together.

[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Actually, I  think adding the option to play as a silent character wouldn't be a bad  thing really. It shouldn't be too hard to implement (you're just  removing content) and it would make everyone relatively happy.[/quote]

I really don't have a huge issue with player voice over- my main contention with it is that IMO, the resources it sucks up are too much compared to what I get out of it, mainly not much at all. I'd rather see that work go towards other things, like more NPC dialogue. Beyond that, its really the paraphrases and wheel that irks me. I know BioWare doesn't think it fashionable to include with a voiced PC, but even adding a full text would be a step forward.

[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...

-I've  probably mentioned this before in this thread or other threads regulars  on here have posted in, but seriously I don't like what was done with  Justice, as I've always not liked Anders's character. I'm sorry for  those who actually like him, but I find him way too overly whiny,  pretentious, and just overly-self-entitled with his desires to see the  mages freed by any means necessary. [/quote]

Really, if there is anything I take away from DA2, its that I fear should they reintroduce Morrigan in the future, they do so in an Anders in DA2 sort of way. Namely, have her be some sort of changed character from when we last saw her, such that all the character development has sort of already happened and you're left figuring the details out as you go along. I just find that uninteresting and a boring way to go about things and I really hope they don't pull that crap with Morrigan. 

[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
-even the twins don't escape my criticism! Bethany, early on, came off as a  **** and a major ditz/airhead to me (thankfully she got a little better  later in act 2 and her letter to hawke after being in the Circle is
optimistic). And WHAT THE HELL is up with Carver's automatic hatred of  anything mage-related the entire way through? [/quote]
I think they become much more tolerable if you make them Wardens, as they seem to grow up when you meet back up with them later on.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
I'm just not getting into the characters that much in DA2, and literally my amazement with the story only went as far as picking a preset to  create from, creating the Hawke, and watching how the preset affected  Carver's and Bethany's looks.

I remember being captivated the  first time I played out Morrigan's romance, and it being fulfilling  still each time I repeated it. I haven't seen any romance like that in  games since...
I MISS MORRIGAN [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
Ha- yeah, I don't know if its in part due to the binary nature of the friendship/rivalry system or what, but too many of the DA2 characters come across as very one note to me and combined with the limited interaction, makes them rather boring and one dimensional. So while I like the notion of the rivalry system, in practice in DA2, its not that great.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
And I did feel very connected to everyone. I don't know, maybe I value the interaction from the personal quests a bit more than  random meaningless convos at camp. It's why I didn't complain that much  in Mass Effect 2, where despite the nearly non-existent companion  dialogues outside of missions, I still felt very connected to everyone  thanks to their loyalty missions.
[/quote]
I think, for me, the lack of connection to the DA2 companions is due in part to not having much context for their companion quests. Its just BAM "I just met you but do this very personal favor for me- GO!" There wasn't much in the way of more slow, mellow conversations like you could have in Origins to sort of put the companion quests or any big conversations in any meaningful context. I think thats part of the reliance on cutscenes affecting things there too maybe. So I like the companion quests and stuff, but its nice to have some non-big huge conversations too, to give the big/huge important ones a bit more meaning.

[quote]UFOash wrote...

Hey, do you guys think Morrigan would look better in heeled boots or flat bottomed boots?

I've seen fanart of the second kind and I thought it looked kinda cool.../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/quote]

I'd imagine Morrigan in more practical flat bottom type boots or maybe with just a tiny bit of a heel. But secretly, she has a stash of shoes that would make Leliana green with envy.

And Morrigan in her guard disguise!

Modifié par Brockololly, 07 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

Morrigan in heels and glasses...


by: Ximena

Do we need more news about Morrigan? hehehe.

[UFOash]

Lol Morrigan woddles enough when shes moving anyway, bigger heels would make her a bit of a cluts on the battlefield.

Unless the Darkspawn stopped to ogle.

[ReiSilver]

I just finished Witch Hunt and thought I'd drop by. I've been playing through with my Dalish Warden who hit it off with Morrigan early on for her teasing of Alistair and her general snarkyness was a bright spot in his otherwise FML out look.
However my Mahariel ended up romancing the only other elf in the party as I just couldn't see him being sexually interested in a human (though Morrigan didn't count as a Shem to him in most ways) and he and Morrigan ended up being really close friends. I was really happy with the way it played out, that maybe in another life they might have been something more but they still had a really close friendship. (He did take Morrigan's deal and the thought of how Awkward that must have been never gets old 8D)
SO, playing as a Dalish Elf when playing Witchhunt for the first time was Extremely rewarding; lots of recognition that my warden is dalish, finding out more about lost elven lore, reopening old wounds (Tamlen! *sob*) and being able to continue seeing deep feelings between my warden and Morigan without having to be in a romance with her. He offered to go with her, not out of not wanting to let her go but recognising that what she's doing is big and probably going to be hard and even though I knew he wanted to go back to Zevran he still got to offer help with the 'you don't have to do this alone' dialogue.
Sure it was no LotSB but I really liked it~

and for you Morri-mancers here's some links to some of my Morrigan art
http://adre-es.devia...roves-203132285
http://adre-es.devia...KETCH-203029384

Modifié par ReiSilver, 07 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[ximena]

Brockololly wrote...

PureMethodActor wrote...

-I've  probably mentioned this before in this thread or other threads regulars  on here have posted in, but seriously I don't like what was done with  Justice, as I've always not liked Anders's character. I'm sorry for  those who actually like him, but I find him way too overly whiny,  pretentious, and just overly-self-entitled with his desires to see the  mages freed by any means necessary.

Really, if there is anything I take away from DA2, its that I fear should they reintroduce Morrigan in the future, they do so in an Anders in DA2 sort of way. Namely, have her be some sort of changed character from when we last saw her, such that all the character development has sort of already happened and you're left figuring the details out as you go along. I just find that uninteresting and a boring way to go about things and I really hope they don't pull that crap with Morrigan. 

If they decide to pull a Janders on Morrigan...

[Zjarcal]

First of all... I don't know how the hell do you guys manage to handle those epic posts. I just quoted Brock's post (which wasn't even that long to begin with) and trying to snip the stuff directed at me was a nightmare... gah!

Then again, you guys are experts at this by now. 

And pic spam...



While Zev admires Morri's caboose, she seems to have little interest on Doggie's behind.

Brockololly wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Actually, I  think adding the option to play as a silent character wouldn't be a bad  thing really. It shouldn't be too hard to implement (you're just  removing content) and it would make everyone relatively happy.

I really don't have a huge issue with player voice over- my main contention with it is that IMO, the resources it sucks up are too much compared to what I get out of it, mainly not much at all. I'd rather see that work go towards other things, like more NPC dialogue. Beyond that, its really the paraphrases and wheel that irks me. I know BioWare doesn't think it fashionable to include with a voiced PC, but even adding a full text would be a step forward.

Ok, I respect your view, but personally, I felt like I got a lot out of having a voiced PC. So much that I would never want to go back to a silent one. While I love my warden to pieces (just as much as my Hawke), it was a lot more enjoyable to me to actually see my character talk and see her truly get involved in conversations, as opposed to just watching the back of her head for 90% of the game. 

I had already learned this from the ME games really (which I played after DA:O), and DA2 just reinforced my love for a voiced protagonist. If I have to sacrifice a bit of companion interaction for that, it's a price I'm personally willing to pay, especially since the interactions I had with those companions felt a hell of a lot more satisfying thanks to the VO.

Granted, I understand that you're irked about the side effect of losing some NPC dialogues (due the resources invested in the voiced PC). As I said, I respect your position (and that of the others in this thread).

As for paraphrasing, I do agree there. While I think they did a better job than in the ME games, the paraphrasing was still off in many ocassions.

Paraphrase: "I'll take responsibility"

Hawke: "I'll make sure this evil blood mage won't hurt anyone again."



So yeah, I understand why that bothers you.

Although I must say, I felt moments like this in Origins as well, where a certain line would be interpreted in a way that it wasn't what I expected from what was shown on the screen. For example, with Morrigan (Hah, my post is now fully on topic! ), there was the option to ask her "Why are you here?" in camp. The first time I saw that I thought the line was meant to be something like "So what exactly is your goal here? What do you gain by following us?", but of course, Morrigan (and the game I assume) interpret that line as "I want you out of the camp, nao!". Morrigan got pissy and I got a sad... 

You could say that that is simply a case of an NPC having a reaction I wasn't expecting, but I still felt the dialogue wasn't very clear in what it's intent was in that case. There were other cases like that in Origins, though it was less of an issue than with the paraphrasing, that's for sure. Still, if you ask me, this is one issue that will affect any dialogue system.

Brockololly wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
And I did feel very connected to everyone. I don't know, maybe I value the interaction from the personal quests a bit more than  random meaningless convos at camp. It's why I didn't complain that much  in Mass Effect 2, where despite the nearly non-existent companion  dialogues outside of missions, I still felt very connected to everyone  thanks to their loyalty missions.

I think, for me, the lack of connection to the DA2 companions is due in part to not having much context for their companion quests. Its just BAM "I just met you but do this very personal favor for me- GO!" There wasn't much in the way of more slow, mellow conversations like you could have in Origins to sort of put the companion quests or any big conversations in any meaningful context. I think thats part of the reliance on cutscenes affecting things there too maybe. So I like the companion quests and stuff, but its nice to have some non-big huge conversations too, to give the big/huge important ones a bit more meaning.

A fair point, and I did talk about this with a friend sometime ago. Isabela's quest in act 1 particular, it's essentially "Oh, nice to meet you, care to help me with some demons from my past?"... 

But we did get a chance to dig into the backgrounds of their personal quests as we advanced in the game (and that's something I loved, how the personal quests took place across the whole game). So while the introductions might have felt a bit awkward in certain cases, it still played out alright if you ask me.

And the other thing is, the personal quests from Origins were rather short and in some cases, there wasn't much interaction with the companions (admittedly ths is balanced by all the interactions you had previously, though not many of them might have been related to the personal quest per se). So, while I liked (and loved in the case of Morrigan, Leliana, and Sten) the personal quests from Origins, some of them felt like they could've been expanded quite a bit.

Also, I should clarify. I don't dislike the meaningless conversations. I actually like them a lot and I would certainly approve of having more of that. But if I had to pick between "More Convos of Origins + Simpler Personal Quests", vs "Less Convos of DA2 + Deeper and Longer Personal Quests", I'll take the latter.

Hmm, this post is only a fraction of what you guys do in those epic posts and I already feel drained... 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

True enough.
Considering how much it seems the DA team is now just miming what Mass Effect does, it will be interesting to see if ME3 actually goes to the effort of injecting more RPG elements back into the game there. I'm not expecting much there, but how ME3 goes is likely how I suspect how DA2 goes, sadly.

I doubt they will, considering how well ME2 sold.

If anything they're more likely to keep rpg elements as they were in ME2 and focus on class balance and gameplay changes.

Brockololly wrote...


But take it if you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with the OGB- hell, thats a damned family by most accounts! And what makes that more effective than a BioWare sanctioned Hawke family, is that its been created by the agency of the player, first and foremost! So naturally, I'm going to give a damn to a much greater degree about what happens there- its the notion of exclusivity almost really with Morrigan, the OGB and going through the Eluvian. The fact that not everyone made those choices, but that those choices were available to you and you took them. It gives you a greater sense of investment and engagement knowing that there were other viable paths available, but you've taken this one.

True, you, as the player, choose to create that family so you'll naturaly feel more connected to it then to something that writers themselves gave you. But the problem in your case is that making it optional limits the story potential right at the start, since not everyone made the same choice as you did. 
Also, DA2 isn't the first case of Bioware giving you a sibling. BG 1 and 2 had Imoen as the PC's half sister. Sure, some people felt no connection to her at all, but that didn't mean you couldn't establish that connection if you wanted to. 

The fact is that no writer can ever create a character that everyone will care about. Someone will always feel a lack of connection and a dislike for a certain character for whatever reason.

Brockololly wrote...

That goes for any choice driven game really and why (IMO) DA2 falls flat- DA2 is exceedingly linear; it doesn't even do a good job of giving you the illusion of choice. Whereas take New Vegas for instance, I love that because even if you go NCR all the way, you know that there are 2 other, completely fleshed out and viable choices for you that have been uniquely crafted should you want to do something different. So even if I don't choose those routes, it enriches the overall game experience.

So if Morrigan's conclusion or big story moment were to come and the Warden is for whatever reason absent, well, there is a good chance thats maybe due to BioWare swooping in and snatching up all that agency that they've built up via allowing for seemingly meaningful choices with respect to Morrigan and the OGB thus far. Like its been said, none of this all matters really if they plunk a crappy ending on it or pull an Anders 180 on Morrigan.

True, DA:O had a much wider range of choices and therefore several different endings, ranging from dead Warden, king, councillor, wandering adventurer, etc. Yet, where did that leave us?
You now have a story that branched in so many directions that it's next to impossible to continue it in a meaningful way. Maybe the Warden is dead. Maybe he didn't do the DR and there's no OGB. Maybe he/she rules Ferelden. Maybe he followed Morrigan.

By contrast, ME and DA2, with their linear aproach, kept things nice and simple. No matter which choices you make in DA2 your character will end up in the same place, which makes it easy to carry him forward into new games. All those different choices in DA:O did in the end is box Bioware into a corner. Now, even if they wanted to, they cannot give us a meaningful resolution to DR and OGB without crapping over everyone who didn't make that choice. They cannot give you a reunion between Warden and Morrigan when only some of DA:O playerbase choose that path. 
The only solution is to either drop the Warden completely and go with a new PC or make a canon storyline. Something tells me the former is much more likely then the later.

Multiple choices are all well and good, but only if the story truly ends with them. Otherwise you're creating more problems in the long run. 

Brockololly wrote...

Yup- I've likened all the loose plot threads and mysteries piling up to Lost in the past and DA2 did precisely nothing to resolve anything, but only add more questions to the mix. If there isn't some sort of point they're building towards with all this, then "meh" to you too BioWare. Its like George RR Martin even said recently of how he doesn't want A Song of Ice and Fire to end like Lost:

By the end of DA2 you have 3 major stories going on in Thedas:

1) Tensions and possible war between Orlais and Ferelden - most likely a new protagonist since neither the Warden nor Hawke have a personal stake in that

2) War between mages and templars - Hawk can easily fit in here as champion of one side or the other

3) Whatever it is the wardens were doing in DA2 - DA:O Warden could fit here nicely, or the Orlesian Warden depending on choices in DA:O/Awakening

Brockololly wrote...

Up to now, Morrigan and the Warden's story seems good. But its only as good as how it ends, quite frankly. And while the story of Origins may be over, that doesn't mean the Warden or Morrigan's story is over, given how BioWare has afforded player choice thus far.

Morrigan's story isn't over, which was pretty much confirmed by Laidlaw, Gaider and co. Warden is a tricky issue due to all the different endings in DA:O. As much as I'd love to see him again, I can't fathom how Bioware will pull that one off without choosing a canon storyline.

Brockololly wrote...

Bingo.
BioWare has allowed for a great deal of player choice and built up player engagement with respect to the Warden and Morrigan. They want to talk "personal stories" and "family," well, hell, they pretty much let the player have their Warden create a family unit between Morrigan and the Old God Baby (or regular baby). To just toss that aside or undermine it by pulling an Anders 180 with Morrigan or a Rocks Fall, Warden dies type shift would just be BioWare tossing up the middle finger.

Personal story focusing on family is what DA2 was about. That doesn't mean DA3 or whichever title has Morrigan returning will do the same. The "family" you talk about is optional. You cannot build a huge story about something that only a certain number of players choose to do.
While Morrigan is flagged as one of the central characters in DA franchise, much like Flemeth, her story isn't about a potential child she may or may have not had or a romance that may or may not have happened. 
If DA2 was any indication, you can expect the OGB and Morrigan/Warden romance to result in a few different dialogue lines or a quest or 2. Anything more than that is blowing the expectations out of proportion.

I'd love for us all to get more than that, but it's better to realize the limitations under which Bioware must work than build epic storylines in our minds only  to have them come crashing down once a new DA game is announced.

Zjarcal wrote...
And I did feel very connected to everyone. I don't know, maybe I value the interaction from the personal quests a bit more than  random meaningless convos at camp. It's why I didn't complain that much  in Mass Effect 2, where despite the nearly non-existent companion  dialogues outside of missions, I still felt very connected to everyone  thanks to their loyalty missions.

Same here.

I cared more about Aveline, Varric, Isabela or Merrill than I thought possible. I feel the dialogue for these characters was very well written, the banter was some of the funniest I've seen to date and some of their personal quests did a grand job at helping you understand what the character in question is all about.

[UFOash]

Solution to the dialogue question: Get a mic and have Claudia Black permanantly on-line for DA players.

Would totally solve the "not enough dialogue" thing, would rid the need to choose from a list, and then I wouldn't have to get girls to pretend they're Morrigan...anymore

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seems to me that they are already imposing a single Warden ending, aka disappear.

That's why games like Origins should not have sequels. And that's why they should have closure, but Origins didn't. I was willing to accept what I had in Origins as closure, until WH came in and gave me an option that does not provide closure, but is rather a massive loose end. Of course all end choices are rendered moot anyhow as the Warden disappears no matter what.

I think the flaw here is the entire design philosophy. I am starting to doubt if Bioware knows where it's heading and it seems to me as if it's just throwing as much stuff out there as possible. All we end up having is a myriad of loose ends.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 11:12 .

[Giggles_Manically]

They are going through a LOST phase.

Toss out and dont resolve so many plots until the last possible moment.
Then introduce more....

Wonder if in DA3 we have to work our way into a secret room and Flemeth keeps repeating some random numbers....

[Terra_Ex]

A lengthy post packed with content follows, I think I'm caught up with everything now.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Smiling Morrigan to lighten up the mood.



Sexy smirk to be precise [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
I've become quite partial to angry Morri of late, though smiling Morri is nice too. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] Unless she has ulterior motives...


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In theory, I don't think I would mind playing a character that was in a supporting role for a change. Like following a certain leader, or something interesting like that. For instance, if by miracle the Warden does come back, while I would definitely want him to be proactive, I wouldn't mind him being in a supporting role vis a vis Morrigan, or the OGB should he grow up.

The problem I personally had with DA2 and Hawke however is not that he wasn't a major playor, but that his contribution to the story is essentially stumbling upon an artifact by accident, and killing **** up all the time.
Act 2 might have been slightly less so, as Hawke could have been played an an active mediator, even if he failed at the end. But Act 3, in light of what happened in Act 1, almost reduces Hawke's involvement to an accident. I didn't feel he was pro-active. I felt he was almost entirely reacting. He spent 3 years after becoming champion doing nothing while he might have tried to fix the mess.
[/quote]
That's the thing I was getting at, like in your example the Warden actually seems to have purpose and direction in that scenario. Hawke by contrast, lacks this throughout most of the game. He just seemed to drift aimlessly and stumble into situations because there was nothing to do around chateau Hawke at that particular time. And I think that might be one of the flaws of having set the game up in a city with a cushy home estate, the pampered life in the estate doesn't really underline the theme of dark fantasy to me. It gives the impression of safety and stability, when coupled with the huge timeskips where nothing happens it makes the game as whole seem a tad dull and less involved, with Hawke and co seemingly having a lot of downtime.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But my own main concern right now is either making the Warden a minion with no brain instead of being a pro-active player even if secondary, or not bringing him back and making the whole "going through the mirror" choice (which was my hardest choice) utterly meaningless and the OGB mostly unconsequential.

If they do that, I would have preferred if they didnt' give us the choice to follow Morrigan anyways. But it seems to me that  Bioware aims to please first (and not that succesfully), and thinks later about the plot. They seem to be adding cameos and choice for no other reason than to have cameos and choices and well I wouldn't be surprised if most end up being irrelevent. At least in DA2, they didn't give me choices I care about.
[/quote]
Well, it was interesting that the warden's choice to go with Morrigan was noted in the imported plot summary yet they didn't bother to even throw in an overheard conversation regarding it. The Alistair/Teagan conversation regarding the warden is somewhat annoying and as usual BioWare won't state one way or the other whether its supposed to be that way or not. It raises new questions like is the Warden's disappearance via the mirror or Awakening/Cassandra line kept as two separate events? What I liked about the ending was that it tied together some of the most important characters thus far encountered in DA; Warden, Morrigan, OGB (and those that didn't/couldn't go with her were still tied into future plotlines through her final scenes) and it'd be a tremendous waste to see nothing noteworthy come of that.

And I agree with your point on pleasing people first then voraciously retconning things later. Also agreed on DA2 choices, what little choices there were generally converged to a single commonality within minutes and even the "cliffhanger" ending left me with a feeling of disinterest, you were on the rails the whole time and sadly there was precious little to captivate you whilst on the ride.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Agreed, I think Bioware is just trying to "mutt" DA. Trying to aim for both worlds. Action and cinematics, with story and RPG. The execution and practise was however average at best I felt. Vis a vis action, DA2 felt meh and I'd rather play Assassin's Creed or God of War or actual action games that are more fun to play and less annoying. As for story, with the exception of Act 2, DA2's story was meh. Characters were fine, I guess, but not that memorable to me. If I wanted story, I'd play DA:O.  And the irony is that I find combat in DA:O more fun, less annoying and more engaging. Could have used some improvements, sure, but not an overhaul.

I think the problem is that Boware is trying to hard to please everyone and it just ends up with a meh game.

EDIT: I probably didn't phrase it that well. Not too say that good action and story are incompatible. Just that I felt both were average in DA2.
[/quote]
Indeed and that's the problem with trying to be a jack of all trades, DA2 was most certainly master of none
. Brock's talked about it before, if you're going to go the action route then you really have to raise your game because there are a lot of titles out there with far superior realisations of that style of gameplay. Rather than going head to head with the big names you mentioned, excel and improve in the areas that you are renowned for.

Aside from the lack of closing attacks which facilitate interception (which is one area that I felt DA2 did address a genuine problem) I too prefer Origins style of combat and feel it would have been better to iterate on that base, focusing on improved encounter design than the frenetic action via wave spawning that DA2 adopted.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Exactly. If it ends up being that, I wish they never gave us the choie in the first place. I would have been content with my Warden never seeing Morrigan again and focusing on somethign else. But of course the warden has to mysteriously disapear for some reason.
[/quote]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't. I prefer silent over voiced, but I think voiced was done well in DA2. Better than ME.

And in some ways, DA2 had good character interactions, I felt. But they end up being so few in numbers and so spread out accross 7 years that they feel inadequate to me.

So I don't know. It's ambivalence I feel. I certainly see the pros and cons of both system. But I feel silent is more rewarding, but personal preference.
[/quote]
Neither of the Hawkes matched Hale but they did a better job than Meer.

I liked everything from Varric & Aveline, the LI visit after the serial killer incident was good but apart from that there was little else that really stood out. And regarding VO, like I said before there were only maybe 3/4 instances in the game where I thought player VO added something to the experience that would have been difficult to acheive via a silent protagonist. Unfortunately though, had Hawke not been voiced, they could have ramped up the companion interactions and the cutscene-oriented presentation would have to be lessened to accomodate it. I don't generally have a problem with VO in other titles, it's perfectly acceptable to me in all other genres and most jrpgs (with the exception of abysmal localisation VO decisions) but I absolutely savour the silent protagonist approach that Bethesda, Obsidian and Bioware provide.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I wouldn't have minded the time gap if we could see how Kirkwall evolve with our choices. Of course there were no big or that impactful choices in the first place.

The only thing that changes in the dull lifeless Kirkwall is the Qunari killer statue. Oh and the bone pit...

And it just gives the impression that Hawke is a lazy good for nothing. For 3 years, he could have used his position as champion to rise to power or to mediate the Templar / mage divide, but he  just doesn't do anything.
[/quote]
Agreed, it calls into question whether the 7/10 year thing was chosen because bioware was being overambitious or that it was a convenient way to churn out another DA title in record time since it facilitates rampant asset/area reuse. Regardless the game and story fell well short of what I expected.
 Was there even that much of a rise to power though, I remember some of the trailers with Hawke raising his sword overhead like some epic leader while looking down on Kirkwall and the scene where he led the charge in the struggle against the qun
ari - where was this in the actual game? It doesn't exist.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Any pic? Hmm... let's see. Oh, there was this one time when Morrigan seemed very impressed about my Warden's desire demon outfit...



[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

[/quote]
*sigh* Always lowering the tone in the Morri thread, though I suppose I walked straight into that one. *adds picture to secret archive* [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
DAO felt like you were stepping into a vast and wide world deep in content and history. Granted, you may have experienced only a tip of it, but to still have it there made it feel like you were in a much bigger picture. It took a while (IMO) before it felt like a game. DA2 felt like a game. Especially as you progressed along. I know it was only one city and all, but it didn't pack the same "I'm in a vast world" feeling.
[/quote]
I agree, that's what I like about games like DA, Fallout etc - they're slow starters and you have to invest yourself in the game and the world to really see the payoff, ie: it's not about instant gratification. DA2 presents itself as a game on nearly all levels comparatively, with elements like the intent icons really hammering that home from the start.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I didn't mind that punchline in and of itself, but the problem arises when placed in the external context that Hawke was billed as the most important guy/girl in Thedas. Unless I'm missing something. Tack on the whole "choices" factor, and it makes it even worse. When you take out the PC and the story remains exactly the same, that speaks volumes about the choices the player has in the game. The Warden at least was able to nominate and eliminate leaders and allow and deny access to uncommon knowledge.
[/quote]
The problem is when you hit the end of the game, you think to yourself "why?" Just what was the purpose of this story, a series of miscellaneous sidequests strung together to support a few big moments that ultimately the "champion" has little involvement in and certainly no ability to impact in any significant way. So you're right, within Dragon Age 2, I can see no evidence to support Hawke being the most important, or even an important figure in Thedas. There's another line of thinking that suggests that Hawke's role as "most important" is still to come in the future but then that kind of renders DA2 proper meaningless.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
This is essentially the OOC reason why I had my Warden kiss Morrigan goodbye at the Eluvian (the IC/RP reason being that the Warden still had things to do in Ferelden) - my Warden becomes exempted from any sort of railroading/plothammering regarding Morrigan's SL. That said, one has to be kidding themselves if they think that the Warden had no impact on Morrigan's story whatsoever. Especially if one is to take the OGB into consideration (and I think that that's going to end up being canonized if the process of canonizing and retconning continues). Now, sure maybe we do overemphasize it a little bit, but it does have an impact. Take the Warden away and Morrigan's story may change slightly. You'll most likely have a different Morrigan and you may not even have the OGB. Does it still remain intact? Sure - Morrigan travels with the Grey Warden Alistair and before the final battle makes her offer, leaves and goes in search of Dalish clans and Eluvians.

All in all, if they screw this up, I think the reactions on the DA2 forums will seem mild in comparison. From what I've seen, on the things DA fans want preserved the most, romances seem to be at the top. "You can retcon this, disregard that, BUT KEEP MY ROMANCE INTACT!!!!"
[/quote]
I'll just tell myself that DA ended at WH should that be the case, DA2 is certainly enough of a departure to justify that to myself, I'll likely type up a good few rants on it though. I can see certainly understand the OOC reasoning behind your decision and like I've said before it's unfortunate that players are having to preemptively navigate around BioWare's future handwaves. Like Knight has said in the past, I think things like the OGB should be canonised because otherwise you're wasting a strong plot thread, hell you're potentially wasting the biggest choice by doing so.

As you suggest, it's already beginning to show that you can't really have "no canon" and still deliver a consistent story in the way BioWare stated and I don't mind them ditching the dead end plot threads to deliver a better story. I hold Morrigan's romance in higher esteem than the others due to its many ties with the Origins plot, the Blight, Flemeth, Old Gods and beyond - it's succesful because it married a complex character with the both the main plot and another overarching plot. Most of us here want to see these elements carry through into the future in their entirety simply because it was so successful in Origins.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
The ending was satisfactory on only a few levels, but considering that it seemed like a relative delay of progression, the levels where it was satisfactory on were only a few. Like you (and others have) said, relegating it to a fanserving line that basically says "We remembered your romance, see?" is more an insult than anything else. It worked a little with Leliana in DA2 only because of the context of it being a cameo and something more pressing was occuring.
[/quote]
Couldn't put it better myself. We've been led to believe Morrigan's return will be more than just a cameo, and with all the talk of destiny from Flemeth and Morrigan I find it the situation would likely warrant the warden's presence, the end of WH seemed to indicate as much regardless of the option you chose.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
-I've probably mentioned this before in this thread or other threads regulars on here have posted in, but seriously I don't like what was done with Justice, as I've always not liked Anders's character. I'm sorry for those who actually like him, but I find him way too overly whiny, pretentious, and just overly-self-entitled with his desires to see the mages freed by any means necessary. Its actually in part because of him that I've become very pro-chantry/templars in my current playthrough. I tried playing the middle ground, to see both sides, but Anders, as well as the many blood mages and apostates/maleficars who are harming the peace of Kirkwall and the Free Marches, make me think that perhaps the Right of Annulment (as I said I've been spoiling myself as I play) is the right call for this particular circle. I'm SO glad Anders is open to any viewpoints besides "BOO CHANTRY SUX" *end sarcasm*
[/quote]
Oh man, the sheer number of random blood mages (who all want to kill you sight) ran into sheer comedy near the end of the game. I didn't mind Anders back in Awakening but here, no, like so much else I felt pretty much nothing, maybe some disappointment but no real emotion. It was like everytime he opened his mouth, you knew exactly where the conversation was heading, so ultimately you filter it out.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
Probably the two characters I've connected with most are Varric and Aveline (who ironically, from what I've heard, are the ones fans wished were romances. Not so much Aveline, but I've heard some buzz. Anyone familiar with the Varric craze knows what I'm talking about). These two were the only ones who seemed more than one-dimensional and had complex morals, even if Aveline was more a stickler for the law. I admit, I had fun doing her quest "The Long Road", and seeing Hawke get jealous of Donnic the entire way. And Varric, honestly, seems like one of the few truly complex characters in the game for me thus far. He would have been a much more viable male romance for my female Hawkes than Anders (who I've mentioned I hate) or Fenris (anime look and anime-like hair doesn't do it for me in regards to potential romances for my female characters, plus his personality reminds me too much of emo Wolverine from "X-men: The Last Stand"). A shame Bioware didn't respond to the early stages of the Varric craze and write in a romance.
[/quote]
Personally I was delighted that both Aveline & Varric could not be romanced considering the way the two romances I explored panned out. As the only two characters in the game that actually held my interest throughout I'm glad they were spared the "[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]click heart for romance" treatment. I think BW needs to go back to the drawing board for DA3 romances as DA2's didn't come close to touching any of the DA:O romances.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...

Its a far cry from DAO, where we had... well, do I need to say it??... MORRIGAN, OF COURSE, probably one of the best romances I've played throughout my history with Bioware, and Alistair had some complexity beyond his joking or playing-the-buffoon moments, as he had his own doubts about his past, his own personal conflicts, and all in all, he reminded me very much of me, which is why my canon female Warden I sent towards him. Most of the other party members, too, had their own unique personalities that weren't one dimensional. Sten was very much a follower of the Qun but open to be impressed with the Warden, Wynne plays on the jokes and attitudes people have of her as the grandmother type and yet at the same time can make you go "WTF??" with her flirting back with Alistair after he jokingly flirts with her. Shale was very interesting and the quests and the conversations with her were always engaging to me. Even Leliana had quite a bit of complexity and believable inner conflict around the reveal of her past.
-as much as I hated Zevran, even he had his moments as a complex character, and Oghren even surprises us with feelings of regret and insecurity in parts of Origins and Awakening.

I'm just not getting into the characters that much in DA2, and literally my amazement with the story only went as far as picking a preset to create from, creating the Hawke, and watching how the preset affected Carver's and Bethany's looks.

I remember being captivated the first time I played out Morrigan's romance, and it being fulfilling still each time I repeated it. I haven't seen any romance like that in games since...
[/quote]
You are not alone in your disappointment with DA2's characters. I have my doubts that they'll ever create a romance of the likes of Morrigan's again, especially with the direction and focus of DA2. I'd suggest looking back at BioWare's previous titles if you're looking for similar depth.

Sten is an excellent example and a character that I greatly enjoyed interacting with in Origins, his initial clashes with the Warden that slowly turn on their head over the course of the game was quite gratifying. I particularly liked Wynne's disapproval of your relationship with the LIs in Origins, Morrigan in particular as the two were always sniping at each other, Wynne's follow up conversation on the issue again reinforces the "other side" of Morrigan that few get to see. I could go on, but yeah, I just find Origins be to far more accomplished in the relationships between party members than its sequel.


[quote]ejoslin wrote...
DA2, while it's a fun game, cannot approach those moments. When Fenris left Hawke, I was left feeling WTF, but no tears like with what happened to Alistair (though the way his romance resolved did make me smile ear to ear -- again, no tears like Zevran's). i'm not sure what is missing, tbh. There is less interaction, which means I don't have the same emotional investment I suppose.
[/quote]
This. It's not that the game isn't Origins, it's that it fails spectacularly to strike the same chord that its predecessor did, I simply didn't care. With DA:O, I literally couldn't put it down from the HN origin onwards and the deflating final moments in the coronation room with no Morrigan... sad times to say the least. (Though I should note that the way the DR was handled turned into a more of a WTF moment for me, but there was still a lot of emotion in the closing moments).


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
And I did feel very connected to everyone. I don't know, maybe I value the interaction from the personal quests a bit more than random meaningless convos at camp. It's why I didn't complain that much in Mass Effect 2, where despite the nearly non-existent companion dialogues outside of missions, I still felt very connected to everyone thanks to their loyalty missions.
[/quote]
I didn't have as much of a problem with it in ME as I do in DA2, probably because ME styles itself as a shooter first, RPG second. Since Shepard is a very accomplished and defined character its easier for me to see why they would follow him/her out of respect and not necessarilly require a close relationship. DA2 is allegedly an RPG first and thus I expect more on the character interaction front, especially after Origins set the bar higher, breaking the conventions of many rpgs that only allow dialogue during scripted sequences.


[quote]Alex Kershaw wrote...
The only time I've ever felt those dramatic moments like in Origins at Ostagar, etc, was in the end of Okami, but I think I'm the only person who's ever played that game...
[/quote]
*has also played Okami.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
First, Morrigan the Helpful Chantry Sister! (Oh no! It must not be Morrigan is she isn't in her robes![smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie])

[/quote]
I can't seem to find Morrigan in this picture Brock... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
True enough.
Considering how much it seems the DA team is now just miming what Mass Effect does, it will be interesting to see if ME3 actually goes to the effort of injecting more RPG elements back into the game there. I'm not expecting much there, but how ME3 goes is likely how I suspect how DA2 goes, sadly.

Thing is, if you go by interviews like this one with Darrah from December, they don't seem to really care about making "RPGs" anymore, just "interactive stories":
[quote]
*snip*
[/quote]

Some of those pre-release interviews seem pretty freakin' bad looking back, but there you go- BioWare just wants to make interactive movies
[/quote]
Oh yeah, I think I mentioned this interview with Darrah a while back but couldn't source it at the time. It is indeed concerning but should BioWare decide to leave the field of RPGs (which they're not far from all things considered) they'll leave a nice gap in the market for someone else to exploit, and someone will do so eventually. I kind of wish Obsidian would get their act together take up the reins, New Vegas was definitely a step in the right direction.

I think the most dangerous thing about current BioWare is their telemetry system, which, coupled with the random posts of various lowbrow gaming forums ("ZOMG, teh graphics suxxorz") seem to chart the course for future games.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Unless there is more in store for Hawke, I really don't see why Hawke's story even needed to be told. You could have summed it up in a codex entry or had Gaider just write a book about it to tie into DA3's inevitable big mage/chantry war. And you're right- as for Hawke himself/herself, he's just an onlooker, a bystander to the events that happen in the game- he's not the catalyst for any of the changes, just some bum that stumbled upon being in the right place at the right time.

Maybe if there were some branching or divergent choices in the story it might feel like hawke actually did anything worth a damn, but thats just not the case.
[/quote]
Completely agree, but extending Hawke's story into a future game could be seen as admitting it serves no purpose or is inadequate as it stands in DA2. I share your thoughts that it could very easily have taken the form of a book and probably been more effective in its delivery because of it. Or if Hawke goes on to become some super important figure in the future (as an NPC), surely it would have been more effective to tell his story after we'd already encountered him following his rise to prominence. Ultimately I'm drawing a blank as to how Hawke is an important figure in DA.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Excellent point.
With one of the big problems in DA2 (IMO) being the lack of reason to care for anything thats happening, lacking the Warden whenever its Morrigan's time to take centerstage would sort of make the whole thing fall flat.

Honestly, for all the talk of DA2 being a "personal" story, I just totally disagree. Since I never really fealt much of a connection with Hawke, it was more like the game telling me "Hey! This is your family! You should care about them!" But that sort of enforced relationship doesn't really work- a player created one works far better. And quite frankly, its why I feel that the Origins crew was more of a family unit- dysfunctional as it may have been- than the DA2 companions and Hawke's family. In part, thats to do with player initiated interactions granting a greater sense of agency as well.
[/quote]
Aye, the story didn't feel personal to me at all, the execution of so many elements was all over the place but the inability to connect with the PC sits at the root of it all. It's difficult to explain but I don't like BioWare's implementation of VO for Hawke and how they marry it up with paraphrasing and super-flexible, be-everything Hawke. Somehow the whole thing doesn't work for me, whereas I have no problem identifying with a silent PC or a fully voiced, fully defined PC, BioWare's implementation throws me off, I think the root of it likely the paraphrasing.

The Origins crew at least had purpose and were forced together by circumstance in most cases and the relationships evolved from there, I went into more detail in my response to PureMethodActor above. The Hawke family thing *could* have worked had they shown key things on screen, but alas the "awesome button" was more important. And on Morrigan, yeah I really hope they don't drop the ball on that front.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
But take it if you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with the OGB- hell, thats a damned family by most accounts! And what makes that more effective than a BioWare sanctioned Hawke family, is that its been created by the agency of the player, first and foremost! So naturally, I'm going to give a damn to a much greater degree about what happens there- its the notion of exclusivity almost really with Morrigan, the OGB and going through the Eluvian. The fact that not everyone made those choices, but that those choices were available to you and you took them. It gives you a greater sense of investment and engagement knowing that there were other viable paths available, but you've taken this one.
[/quote]
Haha, a unusual family setup by accounts, but certainly one that I care far more about than anyone in the Hawke family tree, so superb point. You touch upon a key part of the appeal of Origins there, the choices and exclusivity of particular paths, that adds a lot to any game in my experience but it requires adequate closure lest it end in complete frustration, which is why people evidently want the Warden to continue to be a part of Morrigan's arc.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
That goes for any choice driven game really and why (IMO) DA2 falls flat- DA2 is exceedingly linear; it doesn't even do a good job of giving you the illusion of choice. Whereas take New Vegas for instance, I love that because even if you go NCR all the way, you know that there are 2 other, completely fleshed out and viable choices for you that have been uniquely crafted should you want to do something different. So even if I don't choose those routes, it enriches the overall game experience.
[/quote]
Indeed, I don't think you can even say DA2 is a choice drive game, about the only thing you can influence is Hawke's personality which amounts to very little in the grand scheme of things. The game to me is a once and done affair, easily forgotten while I could jump straight into something like New Vegas again and experience a radically different game and that's not due to the open world nature of the game, its through the developers accomodating player agency and emergent gameplay.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
So if Morrigan's conclusion or big story moment were to come and the Warden is for whatever reason absent, well, there is a good chance thats maybe due to BioWare swooping in and snatching up all that agency that they've built up via allowing for seemingly meaningful choices with respect to Morrigan and the OGB thus far. Like its been said, none of this all matters really if they plunk a crappy ending on it or pull an Anders 180 on Morrigan.
[/quote]
After playing through DA2, my fears of a Justice/Anders style scenario for Morrigan have been elevated considerably. You can possibly let it slide more in the case of Anders though as the Warden's interactions with the Awakening crew (and any nearby trees [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]) was far more limited than what we saw in Origins.   


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
It just gets to the issue with BioWare's insistence on cinematic storytelling and voice over everything how, just because you have the ability to do something, doesn't make it a good idea. There is such a thing as knowing your limits and working within, and embracing those limits. Case in point, you go back to Jurassic Park- sure they used CG for the dinosaurs. But they also used a load of animatronic practical effects too. I just don't think that given the sacrifices you have to make in other areas given you lack an infinite budget, that player VO for a supposedly choice driven RPG is practical. Certainly not with how DA2 did it anyway.

And to the point of every interaction being a cutscene, when you do that its overkill and essentially desensitizes you to the moments that really call for a big cutscene. Cutscenes absolutely have their place, but reducing every interaction to some scripted event rips control and agency away from the player, which is not a good thing in an RPG where you're trying to make the player give a damn about things. Cutscenes shoulkd be reserved for your big moments- like a sex scene or a huge battle scene or a really important conversation, like the DR. Using them judiciously and not just carpet bombing the game with them "because we can" makes them more effective and memorable story telling tools. Its not unlike BG2's use of voice over in how not every line would be voiced- it made the voiced lines all the more memorable I think. And while I'm not advocating  a return to that, its imperative to strike a balance in a game in how you're presenting things- and I don't think DA2 does a very good job of that.
[/quote]
There's the thing, BioWare slams JRPGs for becoming stagnant then begin consolidating a diverse portfolio of titles with unique mechanics into one singular template - wheel, paraphrasing, VO, cinematics, etc. I don't get how that makes sense in the long term. EA themselves have admitted to stifling creativity in the past, see Bullfrog, Westwood and many others so surely they should be supporting BioWare maintaining each individual IP's indentity.

As I've mentioned before, the Metal Gear Solid series has attracted criticism through overuse of cutscenes (and producer Hideo Kojima, like BioWare constantly flirts with the idea of producing movies rather than games) and recently the Final Fantasy series is under fire for this alongside many other issues, there's opportunities there to look at what's obviously not working in other games and not repeat the same mistakes in your own franchise. On the subject of BG2's partial voicing - that is usually my ideal implementation and the one that is used most often in JRPGs, allowing for a larger number of text-based conversations whilst still retaining the impact of VO for the important stuff.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I am starting to get very excited for the Witcher 2- it looks absolutely gorgeous. While graphics aren't everything, BioWare should be ashamed that given their supposed AAA status, they can't make a game as good looking as that. Honestly, if they want to appeal to Mr. Mainstream Gamer, the easiest way to do that is with good visuals. Hell, thats why I got into RPGs- BG2's beautiful environments is what caught my eye and got me to look into the game. And TW2 seems to show that you can make a gritty looking fantasy game in a shade other than brown or beige
[/quote]
Hahahaha, this is the grand irony of it all though Brock, you're absolutely correct in how you can easily grab the mainstream audience through graphics, however I don't think given the limitations of the consoles and their own tech and resources for DA2 they will acheive what the mainstream would consider acceptable. Meanwhile, rpg veterans are more forgiving of this, yet we're not the target audience anymore.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

I actually got into Baldurs Gate 1 many years back at the recommendation of a friend, he brought the instruction manual into school iirc and described some of the stuff you could do in the game. Needless to say, I didn't need much convincing and yeah all the BG titles had nice graphics, still pretty solid today imo.

On Witcher 2 - it really does look good, I fired up the original a few nights ago just to make sure I had a save file prepared for import. Really looking forward to seeing the changes in tech that the devs have made for the sequel, from what I've seen and heard so far it looks like improvements across the board. They have my support due to their focus on PC and what they did with the enhanced edition patch for the first game.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
To each their own in terms of player VO- I don't begrudge those that like it- but I've yet to see a game implement it that can make me really care about the PC with it. And it just seems to suck up massive amounts of resources that could likely be used to make for a more robust game. Ugh....I'll stop there before going off the deep end again
[/quote]
That's the odd thing though for me. I (used to) play a lot of JRPGs and I definitely do care for the protagonists in those games, other genres as well- it's just something about BioWare's implementation that puts me off. They are more on the rails though but they don't tease me with the "Hawke is your character, but he's not" nonsense.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yup- I've likened all the loose plot threads and mysteries piling up to Lost in the past and DA2 did precisely nothing to resolve anything, but only add more questions to the mix. If there isn't some sort of point they're building towards with all this, then "meh" to you too BioWare. Its like George RR Martin even said recently of how he doesn't want A Song of Ice and Fire to end like Lost:

[quote]
"I kept watching it and I was fascinated. They'd introduce these things and I thought that I knew where it was going. Then they'd     introduce and I'd rethink it. We watched it every week trying to ?gure it out, and as it got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This end better pay off here.' And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion."
[/quote]

Up to now, Morrigan and the Warden's story seems good. But its only as good as how it ends, quite frankly. And while the story of Origins may be over, that doesn't mean the Warden or Morrigan's story is over, given how BioWare has afforded player choice thus far.
[/quote]
Good comparison with Lost there, the sad thing is I can certainly see DA making some of those same mistakes. I've covered the Morri/Warden stuff enough in this post though, so see above.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I would hate it if they just had the Warden come back in some shadowy cameo role following along after a Anders 180 type version of Morrigan where she has undergone some drastic character shift but they have the Eluvian Wardens just following along no matter what. I'd like to think my Warden went along with her to try and influence her in whatever she is doing and to be her equal, not just subservient. Cause if she gets up to something absolutely crazy, maybe my Warden wouldn't go along with it, as much as that might pain him. Given all the other choices afforded to the player thus far with Morrigan, it would suck to rip the agency out of your hands when everything is possibly coming together.
[/quote]
To an extent, yes but also no. It depends on what Morri is up to and how exactly they present it. I definitely don't want to see another Anders debacle, they may as well have just used a new character considering what happened there.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Really, if there is anything I take away from DA2, its that I fear should they reintroduce Morrigan in the future, they do so in an Anders in DA2 sort of way. Namely, have her be some sort of changed character from when we last saw her, such that all the character development has sort of already happened and you're left figuring the details out as you go along. I just find that uninteresting and a boring way to go about things and I really hope they don't pull that crap with Morrigan.
[/quote]
Indeed, it just comes off as a cheap way to reintroduce the character into the plotline. With Anders, was there really much in the way of details, I don't recall there being much when I played it.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
lol I know! I can imagine the Bioware robots going "MORRIGAN MUST BE IN HER ROBES!" Seriously, as sexy as her outfit is, I rarely kept her equipped in her robes. Often it would be the Archon's Robes (yay health regeneration) or robes with mana bonuses. Either way it would be the more Tevinter-style robes I'd have her wear, and I wasn't bothered by the "look"
[/quote]
I actually preferred to keep Morrigan in her robes but I still appreciated that the option to customise was there. It's a staple feature of an rpg and there's no need to hack it off.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
I actually love Medieval 2 even with its flaws (still do) and I still play it whenever I'm ready to deal with excessive lag due to my laptop being 6 years old and a piece of crap. Out of the TW games I've played, only Rome was a disappointment with its blatant historical inaccuracies. Deus Ex looks awesome, too, and like you said, Terra, I am SO excited for Skyrim. Honestly, I used to always think that Bioware was the one company, RPG-wise, who never disappoint, but after recent 2010 isssues with their games, I've come to realize that Bethesda is truly the company that holds this position in my heart. Since Morrowind, I've loved them and have never been disappointed by the games I've played by them. That includes Fallout 3, which I loved (and I realize others hate it. I've never played the previous fallout installments so I would have no idea).

To me, when it comes to "necessary" "streamlining", Bethesda is the company who does it right, imo, and as their main stories are actually better than most give them credit for (I'm talking about the main plots, which, while pigeonholing the PC in the role of hero, are absolutely engaging), I can easily tolerate the changes, which haven't been too drastic. Sure I missed throwing stars, hitting staves, and crossbows from Morrowind to Oblivion, but overall they keep the essence the same between the games, from my observations. The only thing that saddened me was announcing that classes were dropped (and I missed it only for the titles. I liked having my character be a "Crusader" or "Witchhunter" etc.). I'll say this: as long as there are plenty of options for guilds in Skyrim, I don't perceive a single major disappointment when Skyrim is released.
[/quote]
When I first played DA:O I was blown away that BioWare had managed to get it so "right" for the first time in years (I'd dropped off their games after NWN through till Mass Effect, which I picked up later) and this was playing it on the 360. Thankfully, both Bethesda and Obsidian have demonstrated that all is not lost if BioWare wants to go in some other direction (once again) so based on DA2 I'm refocusing on other developers and will keep an eye on where BW takes DA moving forwards. I will say that in the light the possibilities we had post DA:O with Morrigan, OGB, etc the actual storyline of DA2 was a colossal disappoint imo, with lacklustre companions only furthering my disappointment.

You should play Fallout 1 & 2 (Tactics too if you feel like it) - they're closer to Fallout NV in terms of feel, but I think they're both better than Fallout 3 (which I also enjoyed greatly).

Deus Ex looks absolutely stunning imo and it seems they're striving to retain what made the original title great so I'm really looking forward to that. Skyrim is also looking great and I'm excited that there's a guaranteed SDK for it as well. I always liked breaking into homes and stealing stuff, drinking blood (as a vampire) and arranging all the loot across my various estates. The psychic guards were always a lot of fun too, but the level scaling in Oblivion really annoyed me.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
Agree with Brock strongly on here. While I didn't mind the loyalty missions myself in ME2, overall companion interaction in the sequels to the current Bioware franchises has been weak compared to the first games. Like Brock said, I value the small talk as well, the "palling around" of sorts, to just get to know the characters. One of my favorite convos in DAO, for example, is the one where Alistair gossips with the Warden about each of the companions and the player gets to choose how their warden reacts. Its a very small quest (one I don't think affects approval unless one denies Alistair answers completely), and does the vital service of adding much-needed character development... as do the other small conversations which are entertaining and give insight into each character, as well as eventual meaning to the bigger companion sidequests which can affect them deeply.
[/quote]
I concur, DA:O is actually one of only a small number of games that offers that flexibility and imo it was very foolish to deem it superfluous to the quintessential DA experience. People were already complaining about it when Awakening hit, yet it seems BioWare had already decided "the way things should be" well in advance of the feedback they claimed to have based many of these changes on. It just demonstrates that the party leader is able to interact with their companions outside of serious business moments.

Excellent example with the Alistair conversation - that's one of my favourites too. I still facepalm when Alistair's like: "Oh that Morrigan is a total b*tch, I can't stand her, what do you think about her?" While the option to slap Alistair is sadly missing from said scene, it is a brilliant example of non-essential dialogue that can add volumes to the player's attachment and understanding of the companions.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Ok, I respect your view, but personally, I felt like I got a lot out of having a voiced PC. So much that I would never want to go back to a silent one. While I love my warden to pieces (just as much as my Hawke), it was a lot more enjoyable to me to actually see my character talk and see her truly get involved in conversations, as opposed to just watching the back of her head for 90% of the game.

I had already learned this from the ME games really (which I played after DA:O), and DA2 just reinforced my love for a voiced protagonist. If I have to sacrifice a bit of companion interaction for that, it's a price I'm personally willing to pay, especially since the interactions I had with those companions felt a hell of a lot more satisfying thanks to the VO.

Granted, I understand that you're irked about the side effect of losing some NPC dialogues (due the resources invested in the voiced PC). As I said, I respect your position (and that of the others in this thread).

As for paraphrasing, I do agree there. While I think they did a better job than in the ME games, the paraphrasing was still off in many ocassions.
[/quote]
Ah, you see for me, this has never been an issue because I don't play from... what I'd describe as a detached perspective. Regardless of whether I'm viewing the scene through the eyes of the PC or from an over the shoulder shot, I never experience the issue you're describing, I'm focused on the conversation at hand as "I" am the active participant in it. I find it much easier to assume the role of a silent PC and bend that avatar to whatever takes my fancy than trying to conform a voiced PC to my will. I view it as the game taking control away from me and doing things I don't particularly want it to do.

ME was fine for me as it was a separate IP with different goals and completely different presentation, Shepard was a defined character and the game was hard-hitting and action-oriented, it was a very good game to "watch" and passively enjoy imo, it doesn't allow for the same kind of immersion I get from a DA:O type experience. I only take issue really with VO to the extent I do because some people decide "I like it how it is in Mass Effect so this is the way all games should be" which imo leads to problems with stagnation down the line, in a similar vein to how the 360 spawned a plethora of identikit FPS titles. And I detest the paraphrasing.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Although I must say, I felt moments like this in Origins as well, where a certain line would be interpreted in a way that it wasn't what I expected from what was shown on the screen. For example, with Morrigan (Hah, my post is now fully on topic! there was the option to ask her "Why are you here?" in camp. The first time I saw that I thought the line was meant to be something like "So what exactly is your goal here? What do you gain by following us?", but of course, Morrigan (and the game I assume) interpret that line as "I want you out of the camp, nao!". Morrigan got pissy and I got a sad...

You could say that that is simply a case of an NPC having a reaction I wasn't expecting, but I still felt the dialogue wasn't very clear in what it's intent was in that case. There were other cases like that in Origins, though it was less of an issue than with the paraphrasing, that's for sure. Still, if you ask me, this is one issue that will affect any dialogue system.
[/quote]
My recollection of said dialogue choice was "Why are you still here?" which seems quite clear to me so maybe you misread it? I do understand the point you're making though (though I don't recall occasions where this happened to me in DA:O) but I think things like the intent icons take it a step too far and bring meta-gaming into the equation. I'd prefer to rarely take the hit with a full text implementation than have to deal with the dual frustration of paraphrasing and shiny intent icons guiding my hand throughout.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
But we did get a chance to dig into the backgrounds of their personal quests as we advanced in the game (and that's something I loved, how the personal quests took place across the whole game). So while the introductions might have felt a bit awkward in certain cases, it still played out alright if you ask me.
[/quote]
Multiple companion quests is a good thing, they should have required greater development of the relationship before each one unlocked though.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
And the other thing is, the personal quests from Origins were rather short and in some cases, there wasn't much interaction with the companions (admittedly ths is balanced by all the interactions you had previously, though not many of them might have been related to the personal quest per se). So, while I liked (and loved in the case of Morrigan, Leliana, and Sten) the personal quests from Origins, some of them felt like they could've been expanded quite a bit.
[/quote]
That's a fair point certainly, I'd likely attribute it to the many cuts applied in the late stages of Origins development though, still it's not like DA2 couldn't have used similar expansion in numerous areas.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
True, you, as the player, choose to create that family so you'll naturaly feel more connected to it then to something that writers themselves gave you. But the problem in your case is that making it optional limits the story potential right at the start, since not everyone made the same choice as you did.
Also, DA2 isn't the first case of Bioware giving you a sibling. BG 1 and 2 had Imoen as the PC's half sister. Sure, some people felt no connection to her at all, but that didn't mean you couldn't establish that connection if you wanted to.
[/quote]
God, how could anyone feel no connection to Imoen? I do recall BW screwed it up somehow in BG2 or TOB where none of her conversations would trigger (I think it was BG2 after rescuing her) but yeah I really liked the PC / Imoen development that played out through the whole series, its an example of it being done correctly imo since she's with you since Candlekeep and after getting snatched by Irenicus after the nightmarish escape from his dungeon saving her provides a clear goal from the onset, one that also linked into your heritage as Bhaalspawn. The Sarevok/Imoen banter in TOB was great too as I recall, ah such blissful days. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
True, DA:O had a much wider range of choices and therefore several different endings, ranging from dead Warden, king, councillor, wandering adventurer, etc. Yet, where did that leave us?
You now have a story that branched in so many directions that it's next to impossible to continue it in a meaningful way. Maybe the Warden is dead. Maybe he didn't do the DR and there's no OGB. Maybe he/she rules Ferelden. Maybe he followed Morrigan.
[/quote]
Not true. The warden is either dead or missing, that's two possible states (with missing possibly branching between mirror world and Awakening/DA2 disappearance). Considering how Flemeth escaped death and the fact that the warden was unconcious and in her "care" for a considerable amount of time, there's a possible get out clause there. The OGB either exists or it does not, that's really all that matters. Being king / queen etc is completely irrelevant in the state that DA2 leaves things in. Based on recent retcons I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of stand in for the OGB. Move the story outside of Ferelden and 99% of the choices become redundant and the Warden/Orlesian Warden are almost interchangeable.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
All those different choices in DA:O did in the end is box Bioware into a corner. Now, even if they wanted to, they cannot give us a meaningful resolution to DR and OGB without crapping over everyone who didn't make that choice. They cannot give you a reunion between Warden and Morrigan when only some of DA:O playerbase choose that path.
[/quote]
And yet the "Hero of Ferelden" worldstate is one of the possible choices when beginning DA2. BW can bring the warden back, perhaps not as PC, the demand is there and while you might be perfectly fulfilled with one singular resolution to Morrigan's arc I daresay many people will not be. It really depends on Morrigan's role when she returns, I personally think it'll be Flemeth-esque which is why they could easily bring only those wardens who went with her into the picture. However, considering some dev comments on the matter I think the wardens will be coming back into the picture in the future regardless.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Multiple choices are all well and good, but only if the story truly ends with them. Otherwise you're creating more problems in the long run.
[/quote]
Then BW should drop the no-canon, your choices matter statements and endeavour to sufficiently wrap up loose ends that players would take issue with, ie: LI tying in with larger plot threads and launching new threads that apparently can't be followed up on in the closing moments.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Personal story focusing on family is what DA2 was about. That doesn't mean DA3 or whichever title has Morrigan returning will do the same. The "family" you talk about is optional. You cannot build a huge story about something that only a certain number of players choose to do.
While Morrigan is flagged as one of the central characters in DA franchise, much like Flemeth, her story isn't about a potential child she may or may have not had or a romance that may or may not have happened.
[/quote]
I think Brock's getting at the fact that it'd be preferable to see BioWare covering all their bases when Morrigan returns by accounting for the the Morrigan/Warden/OGB scenario. Certainly, even seeing them all onscreen makes me a hell of a lot more invested in the game than being fed some one line excuse. As discussed earlier in my post, little things like that can hugely enrich the experience one has with the game and it doesn't take massive amounts of resources to add a little divergence to the plotline. Like MKDAWUSS touched upon earlier, you can get away with minor references for things like Leliana's cameo in DA2, but the Morrigan variables have pretty damn strong ties to certain Origins characters and imo they should be involved in the finale of Morrigan's arc, which I'm guessing will not be a five minute cameo.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
If DA2 was any indication, you can expect the OGB and Morrigan/Warden romance to result in a few different dialogue lines or a quest or 2. Anything more than that is blowing the expectations out of proportion.
[/quote]
Not really, if BioWare was half as progressive as they like to make out then they'd have already employed branching narrative within their story. Alistair making a reference to the queen is really just a pathetic cameo for the sake of a cameo imo. Still, I suppose by setting the bar quite so low you won't be disappointed. Other games have employed branching to great effect, Witcher 2 claims to have 3 unique openings based on your previous actions, so I'll be interested to see how that plays out.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think the flaw here is the entire design philosophy. I am starting to doubt if Bioware knows where it's heading and it seems to me as if it's just throwing as much stuff out there as possible. All we end up having is a myriad of loose ends.
[/quote]
I do wonder sometimes if they are just winging it...

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's why games like Origins should not have sequels. And that's why they should have closure, but Origins didn't. I was willing to accept what I had in Origins as closure, until WH came in and gave me an option that does not provide closure, but is rather a massive loose end. Of course all end choices are rendered moot anyhow as the Warden
disappears no matter what.
[/quote]
I'm not sure, I'm conflicted on this because if you played a warden that would have followed Morrigan after Origins, you'd still have that massive loose end imo. But it comes back to the illogical way the DR/endgame played out for a romancing warden that didn't allow them to go with Morrigan for no discernable reason (except a plot hammer moment).

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Wonder if in DA3 we have to work our way into a secret room and Flemeth keeps repeating some random numbers....
[/quote]
That's DLC-only content. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 08 avril 2011 - 01:32 .

[Brockololly]

[quote]ReiSilver wrote...
and for you Morri-mancers here's some links to some of my Morrigan art
http://adre-es.devia...roves-203132285
http://adre-es.devia...KETCH-203029384
[/quote]

Excellent work! I like Morrigan's expression with the arms folded and all in this one :



[quote]ximena wrote...
If they decide to pull a Janders on Morrigan... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

I really, really hope they don't. But that seems to be par for the course in BioWare character development between sequels now. It would be very nice if any possible continuation was more like the transition from BG2 to Throne of Bhaal in terms of LI's.

[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
One of my favorite convos in DAO, for example, is the one where Alistair gossips with the Warden about each
of the companions and the player gets to choose how their warden reacts. Its a very small quest (one I don't think affects approval unless one  denies Alistair answers completely), and does the vital service of  adding much-needed character development... as do the other small  conversations which are entertaining and give insight into each  character, as well as eventual meaning to the bigger companion  sidequests which can affect them deeply.
[/quote]

Yeah, I loved that little conversation- its a great example of a character actively showing interest in what the PC thinks of things. Too often in games the only time a companion comes to you is if they want the PC to
play therapist or master problem solver, so its nice when you can have a conversation where they seem interested in what the PC has to say, and they react to exactly what you're saying too. A similar one would be when Ariane brings up Morrigan's ring in Witch Hunt too.

[quote]Zjarcal wrote...

First of all... I don't know how the hell do you guys manage to handle those epic posts. I just quoted Brock's post (which wasn't even that long to begin with) and trying to snip the  stuff directed at me was a nightmare... gah![/quote]

Practice!

[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
I had already learned this from the ME games really (which I played after DA:O), and  DA2 just reinforced my love for a voiced protagonist. If I have to  sacrifice a bit of companion interaction for that, it's a price I'm  personally willing to pay, especially since the interactions I had with  those companions felt a hell of a lot more satisfying thanks to the VO.[/quote]
Sure, can't argue with that- different strokes for different folks and all that=].  I mean, I think the voiced PC has its merits, I just don't think BioWare is utilizing it to its full potential really and that, given the limitations, I'd rather see them focus on other aspects of furthering storytelling in games. As I might have said here before, Laidlaw always brings up how the voiced PC can make big epic speeches. Yet, in DA2, they botched this as compared to ME- Hawke just rattles off a lengthy speech with no player input at the end, as opposed to ME, where Shep's epic speeches are broken up so the player can sort of direct the tone.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
You could say that that is simply a case of an NPC having a reaction I  wasn't expecting, but I still felt the dialogue wasn't very clear in  what it's intent was in that case. There were other cases like that in  Origins, though it was less of an issue than with the paraphrasing,  that's for sure. Still, if you ask me, this is one issue that will  affect any dialogue system.[/quote]
Yeah, any dialogue system has its flaws. I think, maybe its just how I try to play RPGs, I have less of an issue with having the full text of each response displayed, combined with the unvoiced PC, which allows you to provide whatever inflection you want. Certainly, while the lines are written with a certain intent, I have less of an issue if the NPC reacts differently to the line as opposed to having Hawke of Shepard say something I don't intend then to have that error compounded by the NPC now reacting to the wrong thing. I guess I have an easier time chalking up the silent PC reaction to the NPC misinterpreting things as opposed to where you clearly have the voiced PC not acting how you want.

The resource issue aside (which I still think is reason #1 to hold off on voiced PCs), if they just had full text as an option that would go a long way. Still, the icons I'm not a fan of really, as even there the tone just dictates 3 different ways of saying the same thing, but I'll not rant on that.

[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
A fair  point, and I did talk about this with a friend sometime ago. Isabela's  quest in act 1 particular, it's essentially "Oh, nice to meet you, care to help me with some demons from my past?"... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie][/quote]
Yeah, I think if there was more of an introductory conversation then go into their initial quest, that might work better for somebody like Isabela.

[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
And the other thing is, the  personal quests from Origins were rather short and in some cases, there  wasn't much interaction with the companions (admittedly ths is balanced  by all the interactions you had previously, though not many of them  might have been related to the personal quest per se). So, while I liked (and loved in the case of Morrigan, Leliana, and Sten) the personal  quests from Origins, some of them felt like they could've been expanded  quite a bit.[/quote]

Oh, most definitely! I liked the DA2 companion quests- having ones like Aveline's really feel like it changed as time passed was great. Its not so much of a problem with the quests, but the game overall then, but I felt like those were the core of the game really, like ME2. So I just think its a balance between having good companion quests and having enough in the main game- I don't know if thats another resource issue or what.

Really, some of my favorite BioWare moments come from the companion quests-  like Jaheira's quest with the Harpers in DA2 and all that. Really, BG2 struck a great balance with in depth companion quests plus main plot.

[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Hmm, this post is only a fraction of what you guys do in those epic posts and I already feel drained... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
Practice makes perfect!

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Also, DA2 isn't the first case of Bioware giving you a sibling. BG 1 and 2 had
Imoen as the PC's half sister. Sure, some people felt no connection to  her at all, but that didn't mean you couldn't establish that connection  if you wanted to. [/quote]
True- but even with Imoen, they gave her a connection to the player character by having her also a Bhaalspawn. Now maybe if in DA2 they let you have a mage sibling teamup, but no, they kill off a sibling right off the bat. Not to mention how you had the course of 3 games to build up a relationship with Imoen, and they didn't kill her off right at the start. They gave you a reason to care about her- they didn't do a great job of that with the siblings in DA2 (IMO).[/quote]

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
The fact is that no writer can ever create a character that everyone will care about. Someone will always  feel a lack of connection and a dislike for a certain character for  whatever reason.[/quote]

True enough, but its an increasing problem in BioWare games where its harder to give a damn about the Player character due to BioWare overly dictating the details of the PC. So its doubly hard to get invested in the plight of NPCs, if you feel as if the PC is almost as much an NPC due to VO and ambiguous paraphrases and so forth.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
All those different choices in DA:O did in the end is box Bioware into a corner.

...

By the end of DA2 you have 3 major stories going on in Thedas:

1) Tensions and possible war between Orlais and Ferelden - most likely a  new protagonist since neither the Warden nor Hawke have a personal stake in that

2) War between mages and templars - Hawk can easily fit in here as champion of one side or the other

3) Whatever it is the wardens were doing in DA2 - DA:O Warden could fit  here nicely, or the Orlesian Warden depending on choices in  DA:O/Awakening[/quote]

Eh, not really- the Warden (regardeless of Origins choices or being Orlesian) disappears no matter what, Morrigan goes through the Eluvian no matter what, Leliana survives no matter what, the ARchdemon dies no matter what and so on. Its a matter of what choices are relevent to DA3 which makes them  important in the future. If all the Wardens vanish, then its not impossible hat should they come back you have differing dialogue based on whether maybe they were Queen with Alistair or whatever.

And hell, if Ferelden is possibly at war again, maybe the Warden comes back for that? Being from Ferelden and all and ...you know, The Hero of Ferelden. Just look at Warden Bethany or Carver coming back to help Hawke- thats not a Wardenly duty but they did it anyway.

Point is, it is very much not impossible to have a decent reactivity based on the choices one made in DAO with the Warden. Its a matter of how BioWare wants to prioritize things- do they want a more linear, cinematic experience with player VO or a more reactive, divergent storyline that leverages genuine player choice? That's the corner BioWare seems intent on painting themselves into, if anything.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
If DA2 was any indication, you can  expect the OGB and Morrigan/Warden romance to result in a few different  dialogue lines or a quest or 2. Anything more than that is blowing the  expectations out of proportion.[/quote]
You're probably right and I know that- but I don't think its at all blowing things out of proportion to expect one's choices to matter in a significant way, given how they've been constantly giving the player choices in how to deal with Morrigan. You don't give the option to the player to create an Old God Baby, the PC's own child, then follow the mother through a mysterious portal and then ditch that or handwave it away. Sure, BioWare can do that, and hell, I quite frankly expect BioWare to drop the ball on Morrigan and the Warden at this point.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
I'd love for us all to get more  than that, but it's better to realize the limitations under which
Bioware must work than build epic storylines in our minds only  to have  them come crashing down once a new DA game is announced.
[/quote]
And I'd say they're largely self imposed limitations in part on their insistence on player VO and excessive cinematics.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seems to me that they are already imposing a single Warden ending, aka disappear.

I think the flaw here is the entire design  philosophy. I am starting to doubt if Bioware knows where it's heading
and it seems to me as if it's just throwing as much stuff out there as  possible. All we end up having is a myriad of loose ends.
[/quote]

Yup.

Take this one for instance though- on Brent Knowles' blog from a couple weeks ago, somebody asked whether the Warden was intended to come back for DA2. Brent's response:

[quote]
I was a bit surprised at the change of the character but given the shift to a human-only main character it was inevitable I guess. When I was at BioWare it wasn't 100% decided if the Grey Warden would remain the hero of the franchise but I had assumed this would probably be the case.

I had hoped at the very least that his mark on the world would have  carried over somehow to the sequel (are there statues or monuments of  the warden in the world? Or books?)[/quote]

So, yeah, make of that what you will.....<_<

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 avril 2011 - 12:38 .

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...

A lengthy post packed with content follows, I think I'm caught up with everything now.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

BWAAA- Simultaneous epic posts!

[leeboi2]

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...

A lengthy post packed with content follows, I think I'm caught up with everything now.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Smiling Morrigan to lighten up the mood.



Sexy smirk to be precise [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
I've become quite partial to angry Morri of late, though smiling Morri is nice too. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] Unless she has ulterior motives...


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In theory, I don't think I would mind playing a character that was in a supporting role for a change. Like following a certain leader, or something interesting like that. For instance, if by miracle the Warden does come back, while I would definitely want him to be proactive, I wouldn't mind him being in a supporting role vis a vis Morrigan, or the OGB should he grow up.

The problem I personally had with DA2 and Hawke however is not that he wasn't a major playor, but that his contribution to the story is essentially stumbling upon an artifact by accident, and killing **** up all the time.
Act 2 might have been slightly less so, as Hawke could have been played an an active mediator, even if he failed at the end. But Act 3, in light of what happened in Act 1, almost reduces Hawke's involvement to an accident. I didn't feel he was pro-active. I felt he was almost entirely reacting. He spent 3 years after becoming champion doing nothing while he might have tried to fix the mess.
[/quote]
That's the thing I was getting at, like in your example the Warden actually seems to have purpose and direction in that scenario. Hawke by contrast, lacks this throughout most of the game. He just seemed to drift aimlessly and stumble into situations because there was nothing to do around chateau Hawke at that particular time. And I think that might be one of the flaws of having set the game up in a city with a cushy home estate, the pampered life in the estate doesn't really underline the theme of dark fantasy to me. It gives the impression of safety and stability, when coupled with the huge timeskips where nothing happens it makes the game as whole seem a tad dull and less involved, with Hawke and co seemingly having a lot of downtime.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But my own main concern right now is either making the Warden a minion with no brain instead of being a pro-active player even if secondary, or not bringing him back and making the whole "going through the mirror" choice (which was my hardest choice) utterly meaningless and the OGB mostly unconsequential.

If they do that, I would have preferred if they didnt' give us the choice to follow Morrigan anyways. But it seems to me that  Bioware aims to please first (and not that succesfully), and thinks later about the plot. They seem to be adding cameos and choice for no other reason than to have cameos and choices and well I wouldn't be surprised if most end up being irrelevent. At least in DA2, they didn't give me choices I care about.
[/quote]
Well, it was interesting that the warden's choice to go with Morrigan was noted in the imported plot summary yet they didn't bother to even throw in an overheard conversation regarding it. The Alistair/Teagan conversation regarding the warden is somewhat annoying and as usual BioWare won't state one way or the other whether its supposed to be that way or not. It raises new questions like is the Warden's disappearance via the mirror or Awakening/Cassandra line kept as two separate events? What I liked about the ending was that it tied together some of the most important characters thus far encountered in DA; Warden, Morrigan, OGB (and those that didn't/couldn't go with her were still tied into future plotlines through her final scenes) and it'd be a tremendous waste to see nothing noteworthy come of that.

And I agree with your point on pleasing people first then voraciously retconning things later. Also agreed on DA2 choices, what little choices there were generally converged to a single commonality within minutes and even the "cliffhanger" ending left me with a feeling of disinterest, you were on the rails the whole time and sadly there was precious little to captivate you whilst on the ride.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Agreed, I think Bioware is just trying to "mutt" DA. Trying to aim for both worlds. Action and cinematics, with story and RPG. The execution and practise was however average at best I felt. Vis a vis action, DA2 felt meh and I'd rather play Assassin's Creed or God of War or actual action games that are more fun to play and less annoying. As for story, with the exception of Act 2, DA2's story was meh. Characters were fine, I guess, but not that memorable to me. If I wanted story, I'd play DA:O.  And the irony is that I find combat in DA:O more fun, less annoying and more engaging. Could have used some improvements, sure, but not an overhaul.

I think the problem is that Boware is trying to hard to please everyone and it just ends up with a meh game.

EDIT: I probably didn't phrase it that well. Not too say that good action and story are incompatible. Just that I felt both were average in DA2.
[/quote]
Indeed and that's the problem with trying to be a jack of all trades, DA2 was most certainly master of none
. Brock's talked about it before, if you're going to go the action route then you really have to raise your game because there are a lot of titles out there with far superior realisations of that style of gameplay. Rather than going head to head with the big names you mentioned, excel and improve in the areas that you are renowned for.

Aside from the lack of closing attacks which facilitate interception (which is one area that I felt DA2 did address a genuine problem) I too prefer Origins style of combat and feel it would have been better to iterate on that base, focusing on improved encounter design than the frenetic action via wave spawning that DA2 adopted.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Exactly. If it ends up being that, I wish they never gave us the choie in the first place. I would have been content with my Warden never seeing Morrigan again and focusing on somethign else. But of course the warden has to mysteriously disapear for some reason.
[/quote]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't. I prefer silent over voiced, but I think voiced was done well in DA2. Better than ME.

And in some ways, DA2 had good character interactions, I felt. But they end up being so few in numbers and so spread out accross 7 years that they feel inadequate to me.

So I don't know. It's ambivalence I feel. I certainly see the pros and cons of both system. But I feel silent is more rewarding, but personal preference.
[/quote]
Neither of the Hawkes matched Hale but they did a better than Meer.

I liked everything from Varric & Aveline, the LI visit after the serial killer incident was good but apart from that there was little else that really stood out. And regarding VO, like I said before there were only maybe 3/4 instances in the game where I thought player VO added something to the experience that would have been difficult to acheive via a silent protagonist. Unfortunately though, had Hawke not been voiced, they could have ramped up the companion interactions and the cutscene-oriented presentation would have to be lessened to accomodate it. I don't generally have a problem with VO in other titles, it's perfectly acceptable to me in all other genres and most jrpgs (with the exception of abysmal localisation VO decisions) but I absolutely savour the silent protagonist approach that Bethesda, Obsidian and Bioware provide.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I wouldn't have minded the time gap if we could see how Kirkwall evolve with our choices. Of course there were no big or that impactful choices in the first place.

The only thing that changes in the dull lifeless Kirkwall is the Qunari killer statue. Oh and the bone pit...

And it just gives the impression that Hawke is a lazy good for nothing. For 3 years, he could have used his position as champion to rise to power or to mediate the Templar / mage divide, but he  just doesn't do anything.
[/quote]
Agreed, it calls into question whether the 7/10 year thing was chosen because bioware was being overambitious or that it was a convenient way to churn out another DA title in record time since it facilitates rampant asset/area reuse. Regardless the game and story fell well short of what I expected.
 Was there even that much of a rise to power though, I remember some of the trailers with Hawke raising his sword overhead like some epic leader while looking down on Kirkwall and the scene where he led the charge in the struggle against the qun
ari - where was this in the actual game? It doesn't exist.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Any pic? Hmm... let's see. Oh, there was this one time when Morrigan seemed very impressed about my Warden's desire demon outfit...



[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

[/quote]
*sigh* Always lowering the tone in the Morri thread, though I suppose I walked straight into that one. *adds picture to secret archive* [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
DAO felt like you were stepping into a vast and wide world deep in content and history. Granted, you may have experienced only a tip of it, but to still have it there made it feel like you were in a much bigger picture. It took a while (IMO) before it felt like a game. DA2 felt like a game. Especially as you progressed along. I know it was only one city and all, but it didn't pack the same "I'm in a vast world" feeling.
[/quote]
I agree, that's what I like about games like DA, Fallout etc - they're slow starters and you have to invest yourself in the game and the world to really see the payoff, ie: it's not about instant gratification. DA2 presents itself as a game on nearly all levels comparatively, with elements like the intent icons really hammering that home from the start.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I didn't mind that punchline in and of itself, but the problem arises when placed in the external context that Hawke was billed as the most important guy/girl in Thedas. Unless I'm missing something. Tack on the whole "choices" factor, and it makes it even worse. When you take out the PC and the story remains exactly the same, that speaks volumes about the choices the player has in the game. The Warden at least was able to nominate and eliminate leaders and allow and deny access to uncommon knowledge.
[/quote]
The problem is when you hit the end of the game, you think to yourself "why?" Just what was the purpose of this story, a series of miscellaneous sidequests strung together to support a few big moments that ultimately the "champion" has little involvement in and certainly no ability to impact in any significant way. So you're right, within Dragon Age 2, I can see no evidence to support Hawke being the most important, or even an important figure in Thedas. There's another line of thinking that suggests that Hawke's role as "most important" is still to come in the future but then that kind of renders DA2 proper meaningless.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
This is essentially the OOC reason why I had my Warden kiss Morrigan goodbye at the Eluvian (the IC/RP reason being that the Warden still had things to do in Ferelden) - my Warden becomes exempted from any sort of railroading/plothammering regarding Morrigan's SL. That said, one has to be kidding themselves if they think that the Warden had no impact on Morrigan's story whatsoever. Especially if one is to take the OGB into consideration (and I think that that's going to end up being canonized if the process of canonizing and retconning continues). Now, sure maybe we do overemphasize it a little bit, but it does have an impact. Take the Warden away and Morrigan's story may change slightly. You'll most likely have a different Morrigan and you may not even have the OGB. Does it still remain intact? Sure - Morrigan travels with the Grey Warden Alistair and before the final battle makes her offer, leaves and goes in search of Dalish clans and Eluvians.

All in all, if they screw this up, I think the reactions on the DA2 forums will seem mild in comparison. From what I've seen, on the things DA fans want preserved the most, romances seem to be at the top. "You can retcon this, disregard that, BUT KEEP MY ROMANCE INTACT!!!!"
[/quote]
I'll just tell myself that DA ended at WH should that be the case, DA2 is certainly enough of a departure to justify that to myself, I'll likely type up a good few rants on it though. I can see certainly understand the OOC reasoning behind your decision and like I've said before it's unfortunate that players are having to preemptively navigate around BioWare's future handwaves. Like Knight has said in the past, I think things like the OGB should be canonised because otherwise you're wasting a strong plot thread, hell you're potentially wasting the biggest choice by doing so.

As you suggest, it's already beginning to show that you can't really have "no canon" and still deliver a consistent story in the way BioWare stated and I don't mind them ditching the dead end plot threads to deliver a better story. I hold Morrigan's romance in higher esteem than the others due to its many ties with the Origins plot, the Blight, Flemeth, Old Gods and beyond - it's succesful because it married a complex character with the both the main plot and another overarching plot. Most of us here want to see these elements carry through into the future in their entirety simply because it was so successful in Origins.


[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
The ending was satisfactory on only a few levels, but considering that it seemed like a relative delay of progression, the levels where it was satisfactory on were only a few. Like you (and others have) said, relegating it to a fanserving line that basically says "We remembered your romance, see?" is more an insult than anything else. It worked a little with Leliana in DA2 only because of the context of it being a cameo and something more pressing was occuring.
[/quote]
Couldn't put it better myself. We've been led to believe Morrigan's return will be more than just a cameo, and with all the talk of destiny from Flemeth and Morrigan I find it the situation would likely warrant the warden's presence, the end of WH seemed to indicate as much regardless of the option you chose.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
-I've probably mentioned this before in this thread or other threads regulars on here have posted in, but seriously I don't like what was done with Justice, as I've always not liked Anders's character. I'm sorry for those who actually like him, but I find him way too overly whiny, pretentious, and just overly-self-entitled with his desires to see the mages freed by any means necessary. Its actually in part because of him that I've become very pro-chantry/templars in my current playthrough. I tried playing the middle ground, to see both sides, but Anders, as well as the many blood mages and apostates/maleficars who are harming the peace of Kirkwall and the Free Marches, make me think that perhaps the Right of Annulment (as I said I've been spoiling myself as I play) is the right call for this particular circle. I'm SO glad Anders is open to any viewpoints besides "BOO CHANTRY SUX" *end sarcasm*
[/quote]
Oh man, the sheer number of random blood mages (who all want to kill you sight) ran into sheer comedy near the end of the game. I didn't mind Anders back in Awakening but here, no, like so much else I felt pretty much nothing, maybe some disappointment but no real emotion. It was like everytime he opened his mouth, you knew exactly where the conversation was heading, so ultimately you filter it out.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
Probably the two characters I've connected with most are Varric and Aveline (who ironically, from what I've heard, are the ones fans wished were romances. Not so much Aveline, but I've heard some buzz. Anyone familiar with the Varric craze knows what I'm talking about). These two were the only ones who seemed more than one-dimensional and had complex morals, even if Aveline was more a stickler for the law. I admit, I had fun doing her quest "The Long Road", and seeing Hawke get jealous of Donnic the entire way. And Varric, honestly, seems like one of the few truly complex characters in the game for me thus far. He would have been a much more viable male romance for my female Hawkes than Anders (who I've mentioned I hate) or Fenris (anime look and anime-like hair doesn't do it for me in regards to potential romances for my female characters, plus his personality reminds me too much of emo Wolverine from "X-men: The Last Stand"). A shame Bioware didn't respond to the early stages of the Varric craze and write in a romance.
[/quote]
Personally I was delighted that both Aveline & Varric could not be romanced considering the way the two romances I explored panned out. As the only two characters in the game that actually held my interest throughout I'm glad they were spared the "[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]click heart for romance" treatment. I think BW needs to go back to the drawing board for DA3 romances as DA2's didn't come close to touching any of the DA:O romances.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...

Its a far cry from DAO, where we had... well, do I need to say it??... MORRIGAN, OF COURSE, probably one of the best romances I've played throughout my history with Bioware, and Alistair had some complexity beyond his joking or playing-the-buffoon moments, as he had his own doubts about his past, his own personal conflicts, and all in all, he reminded me very much of me, which is why my canon female Warden I sent towards him. Most of the other party members, too, had their own unique personalities that weren't one dimensional. Sten was very much a follower of the Qun but open to be impressed with the Warden, Wynne plays on the jokes and attitudes people have of her as the grandmother type and yet at the same time can make you go "WTF??" with her flirting back with Alistair after he jokingly flirts with her. Shale was very interesting and the quests and the conversations with her were always engaging to me. Even Leliana had quite a bit of complexity and believable inner conflict around the reveal of her past.
-as much as I hated Zevran, even he had his moments as a complex character, and Oghren even surprises us with feelings of regret and insecurity in parts of Origins and Awakening.

I'm just not getting into the characters that much in DA2, and literally my amazement with the story only went as far as picking a preset to create from, creating the Hawke, and watching how the preset affected Carver's and Bethany's looks.

I remember being captivated the first time I played out Morrigan's romance, and it being fulfilling still each time I repeated it. I haven't seen any romance like that in games since...
[/quote]
You are not alone in your disappointment with DA2's characters. I have my doubts that they'll ever create a romance of the likes of Morrigan's again, especially with the direction and focus of DA2. I'd suggest looking back at BioWare's previous titles if you're looking for similar depth.

Sten is an excellent example and a character that I greatly enjoyed interacting with in Origins, his initial clashes with the Warden that slowly turn on their head over the course of the game was quite gratifying. I particularly liked Wynne's disapproval of your relationship with the LIs in Origins, Morrigan in particular as the two were always sniping at each other, Wynne's follow up conversation on the issue again reinforces the "other side" of Morrigan that few get to see. I could go on, but yeah, I just find Origins be to far more accomplished in the relationships between party members than its sequel.


[quote]ejoslin wrote...
DA2, while it's a fun game, cannot approach those moments. When Fenris left Hawke, I was left feeling WTF, but no tears like with what happened to Alistair (though the way his romance resolved did make me smile ear to ear -- again, no tears like Zevran's). i'm not sure what is missing, tbh. There is less interaction, which means I don't have the same emotional investment I suppose.
[/quote]
This. It's not that the game isn't Origins, it's that it fails spectacularly to strike the same chord that its predecessor did, I simply didn't care. With DA:O, I literally couldn't put it down from the HN origin onwards and the deflating final moments in the coronation room with no Morrigan... sad times to say the least. (Though I should the way the DR was handled turned into a more of a WTF moment for me, but there was still a lot of emotion in the closing moments).


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
And I did feel very connected to everyone. I don't know, maybe I value the interaction from the personal quests a bit more than random meaningless convos at camp. It's why I didn't complain that much in Mass Effect 2, where despite the nearly non-existent companion dialogues outside of missions, I still felt very connected to everyone thanks to their loyalty missions.
[/quote]
I didn't have as much of a problem with it in ME as I do in DA2, probably because ME styles itself as a shooter first, RPG second. Since Shepard is a very accomplished and defined character its easier for me to see why they would follow him/her out of respect and not necessarilly require a close relationship. DA2 is allegedly an RPG first and thus I expect more on the character interaction front, especially after Origins set the bar higher, breaking the conventions of many rpgs that only allow dialogue during scripted sequences.


[quote]Alex Kershaw wrote...
The only time I've ever felt those dramatic moments like in Origins at Ostagar, etc, was in the end of Okami, but I think I'm the only person who's ever played that game...
[/quote]
*has also played Okami.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
First, Morrigan the Helpful Chantry Sister! (Oh no! It must not be Morrigan is she isn't in her robes![smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie])

[/quote]
I can't seem to find Morrigan in this picture Brock... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
True enough.
Considering how much it seems the DA team is now just miming what Mass Effect does, it will be interesting to see if ME3 actually goes to the effort of injecting more RPG elements back into the game there. I'm not expecting much there, but how ME3 goes is likely how I suspect how DA2 goes, sadly.

Thing is, if you go by interviews like this one with Darrah from December, they don't seem to really care about making "RPGs" anymore, just "interactive stories":
[quote]
*snip*
[/quote]

Some of those pre-release interviews seem pretty freakin' bad looking back, but there you go- BioWare just wants to make interactive movies
[/quote]
Oh yeah, I think I mentioned this interview with Darrah a while back but couldn't source it at the time. It is indeed concerning but should BioWare decide to leave the field of RPGs (which they're not far from all things considered) they'll leave a nice gap in the market for someone else to exploit, and someone will do so eventually. I kind of wish Obsidian would get their act together take up the reins, New Vegas was definitely a step in the right direction.

I think the most dangerous thing about current BioWare is their telemetry system, which, coupled with the random posts of various lowbrow gaming forums ("ZOMG, teh graphics suxxorz") seem to chart the course for future games.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Unless there is more in store for Hawke, I really don't see why Hawke's story even needed to be told. You could have summed it up in a codex entry or had Gaider just write a book about it to tie into DA3's inevitable big mage/chantry war. And you're right- as for Hawke himself/herself, he's just an onlooker, a bystander to the events that happen in the game- he's not the catalyst for any of the changes, just some bum that stumbled upon being in the right place at the right time.

Maybe if there were some branching or divergent choices in the story it might feel like hawke actually did anything worth a damn, but thats just not the case.
[/quote]
Completely agree, but extending Hawke's story into a future game could be seen as admitting it serves no purpose or is inadequate as it stands in DA2. I share your thoughts that it could very easily have taken the form of a book and probably been more effective in its delivery because of it. Or if Hawke goes on to become some super important figure in the future (as an NPC), surely it would have been more effective to tell his story after we'd already encountered him following his rise to prominence. Ultimately I'm drawing a blank as to how Hawke is an important figure in DA.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Excellent point.
With one of the big problems in DA2 (IMO) being the lack of reason to care for anything thats happening, lacking the Warden whenever its Morrigan's time to take centerstage would sort of make the whole thing fall flat.

Honestly, for all the talk of DA2 being a "personal" story, I just totally disagree. Since I never really fealt much of a connection with Hawke, it was more like the game telling me "Hey! This is your family! You should care about them!" But that sort of enforced relationship doesn't really work- a player created one works far better. And quite frankly, its why I feel that the Origins crew was more of a family unit- dysfunctional as it may have been- than the DA2 companions and Hawke's family. In part, thats to do with player initiated interactions granting a greater sense of agency as well.
[/quote]
Aye, the story didn't feel personal to me at all, the execution of so many elements was all over the place but the inability to connect with the PC sits at the root of it all. It's difficult to explain but I don't like BioWare's implementation of VO for Hawke and how they marry it up with paraphrasing and super-flexible, be-everything Hawke. Somehow the whole thing doesn't work for me, whereas I have no problem identifying with a silent PC or a fully voiced, fully defined PC, BioWare's implementation throws me off, I think the root of it likely the paraphrasing.

The Origins crew at least had purpose and were forced together by circumstance in most cases and the relationships evolved from there, I went into more detail in my response to PureMethodActor above. The Hawke family thing *could* have worked had they shown key things on screen, but alas the "awesome button" was more important. And on Morrigan, yeah I really hope they don't drop the ball on that front.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
But take it if you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with the OGB- hell, thats a damned family by most accounts! And what makes that more effective than a BioWare sanctioned Hawke family, is that its been created by the agency of the player, first and foremost! So naturally, I'm going to give a damn to a much greater degree about what happens there- its the notion of exclusivity almost really with Morrigan, the OGB and going through the Eluvian. The fact that not everyone made those choices, but that those choices were available to you and you took them. It gives you a greater sense of investment and engagement knowing that there were other viable paths available, but you've taken this one.
[/quote]
Haha, a unusual family setup by accounts, but certainly one that I care far more about than anyone in the Hawke family tree, so superb point. You touch upon a key part of the appeal of Origins there, the choices and exclusivity of particular paths, that adds a lot to any game in my experience but it requires adequate closure lest it end in complete frustration, which is why people evidently want the Warden to continue to be a part of Morrigan's arc.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
That goes for any choice driven game really and why (IMO) DA2 falls flat- DA2 is exceedingly linear; it doesn't even do a good job of giving you the illusion of choice. Whereas take New Vegas for instance, I love that because even if you go NCR all the way, you know that there are 2 other, completely fleshed out and viable choices for you that have been uniquely crafted should you want to do something different. So even if I don't choose those routes, it enriches the overall game experience.
[/quote]
Indeed, I don't think you can even say DA2 is a choice drive game, about the only thing you can influence is Hawke's personality which amounts to very little in the grand scheme of things. The game to me is a once and done affair, easily forgotten while I could jump straight into something like New Vegas again and experience a radically different game and that's not due to the open world nature of the game, its through the developers accomodating player agency and emergent gameplay.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
So if Morrigan's conclusion or big story moment were to come and the Warden is for whatever reason absent, well, there is a good chance thats maybe due to BioWare swooping in and snatching up all that agency that they've built up via allowing for seemingly meaningful choices with respect to Morrigan and the OGB thus far. Like its been said, none of this all matters really if they plunk a crappy ending on it or pull an Anders 180 on Morrigan.
[/quote]
After playing through DA2, my fears of a Justice/Anders style scenario for Morrigan have been elevated considerably. You can possibly let it slide more in the case of Anders though as the Warden's interactions with the Awakening crew (and any nearby trees [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]) was far more limited than what we saw in Origins.   


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
It just gets to the issue with BioWare's insistence on cinematic storytelling and voice over everything how, just because you have the ability to do something, doesn't make it a good idea. There is such a thing as knowing your limits and working within, and embracing those limits. Case in point, you go back to Jurassic Park- sure they used CG for the dinosaurs. But they also used a load of animatronic practical effects too. I just don't think that given the sacrifices you have to make in other areas given you lack an infinite budget, that player VO for a supposedly choice driven RPG is practical. Certainly not with how DA2 did it anyway.

And to the point of every interaction being a cutscene, when you do that its overkill and essentially desensitizes you to the moments that really call for a big cutscene. Cutscenes absolutely have their place, but reducing every interaction to some scripted event rips control and agency away from the player, which is not a good thing in an RPG where you're trying to make the player give a damn about things. Cutscenes shoulkd be reserved for your big moments- like a sex scene or a huge battle scene or a really important conversation, like the DR. Using them judiciously and not just carpet bombing the game with them "because we can" makes them more effective and memorable story telling tools. Its not unlike BG2's use of voice over in how not every line would be voiced- it made the voiced lines all the more memorable I think. And while I'm not advocating  a return to that, its imperative to strike a balance in a game in how you're presenting things- and I don't think DA2 does a very good job of that.
[/quote]
There's the thing, BioWare slams JRPGs for becoming stagnant then begin consolidating a diverse portfolio of titles with unique mechanics into one singular template - wheel, paraphrasing, VO, cinematics, etc. I don't get how that makes sense in the long term. EA themselves have admitted to stifling creativity in the past, see Bullfrog, Westwood and many others so surely they should be supporting BioWare maintaining each individual IP's indentity.

As I've mentioned before, the Metal Gear Solid series has attracted criticism through overuse of cutscenes (and producer Hideo Kojima, like BioWare constantly flirts with the idea of producing movies rather than games) and recently the Final Fantasy series is under fire for this alongside many other issues, there's opportunities there to look at what's obviously not working in other games and not repeat the same mistakes in your own franchise. On the subject of BG2's partial voicing - that is usually my ideal implementation and the one that is used most often in JRPGs, allowing for a larger number of text-based conversations whilst still retaining the impact of VO for the important stuff.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I am starting to get very excited for the Witcher 2- it looks absolutely gorgeous. While graphics aren't everything, BioWare should be ashamed that given their supposed AAA status, they can't make a game as good looking as that. Honestly, if they want to appeal to Mr. Mainstream Gamer, the easiest way to do that is with good visuals. Hell, thats why I got into RPGs- BG2's beautiful environments is what caught my eye and got me to look into the game. And TW2 seems to show that you can make a gritty looking fantasy game in a shade other than brown or beige
[/quote]
Hahahaha, this is the grand irony of it all though Brock, you're absolutely correct in how you can easily grab the mainstream audience through graphics, however I don't think given the limitations of the consoles and their own tech and resources for DA2 they will acheive what the mainstream would consider acceptable. Meanwhile, rpg veterans are more forgiving of this, yet we're not the target audience anymore.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

I actually got into Baldurs Gate 1 many years back at the recommendation of a friend, he brought the instruction manual into school iirc and described some of the stuff you could do in the game. Needless to say, I didn't need much convincing and yeah all the BG titles had nice graphics, still pretty solid today imo.

On Witcher 2 - it really does look good, I fired up the original a few nights ago just to make sure I had a save file prepared for import. Really looking forward to seeing the changes in tech that the devs have made for the sequel, from what I've seen and heard so far it looks like improvements across the board. They have my support due to their focus on PC and what they did with the enhanced edition patch for the first game.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
To each their own in terms of player VO- I don't begrudge those that like it- but I've yet to see a game implement it that can make me really care about the PC with it. And it just seems to suck up massive amounts of resources that could likely be used to make for a more robust game. Ugh....I'll stop there before going off the deep end again
[/quote]
That's the odd thing though for me. I (used to) play a lot of JRPGs and I definitely do care for the protagonists in those games, other genres as well- it's just something about BioWare's implementation that puts me off. They are more on the rails though but they don't tease me with the "Hawke is your character, but he's not" nonsense.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yup- I've likened all the loose plot threads and mysteries piling up to Lost in the past and DA2 did precisely nothing to resolve anything, but only add more questions to the mix. If there isn't some sort of point they're building towards with all this, then "meh" to you too BioWare. Its like George RR Martin even said recently of how he doesn't want A Song of Ice and Fire to end like Lost:

[quote]
"I kept watching it and I was fascinated. They'd introduce these things and I thought that I knew where it was going. Then they'd     introduce and I'd rethink it. We watched it every week trying to ?gure it out, and as it got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This end better pay off here.' And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion."
[/quote]

Up to now, Morrigan and the Warden's story seems good. But its only as good as how it ends, quite frankly. And while the story of Origins may be over, that doesn't mean the Warden or Morrigan's story is over, given how BioWare has afforded player choice thus far.
[/quote]
Good comparison with Lost there, the sad thing is I can certainly see DA making some of those same mistakes. I've covered the Morri/Warden stuff enough in this post though, so see above.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I would hate it if they just had the Warden come back in some shadowy cameo role following along after a Anders 180 type version of Morrigan where she has undergone some drastic character shift but they have the Eluvian Wardens just following along no matter what. I'd like to think my Warden went along with her to try and influence her in whatever she is doing and to be her equal, not just subservient. Cause if she gets up to something absolutely crazy, maybe my Warden wouldn't go along with it, as much as that might pain him. Given all the other choices afforded to the player thus far with Morrigan, it would suck to rip the agency out of your hands when everything is possibly coming together.
[/quote]
To an extent, yes but also no. It depends on what Morri is up to and how exactly they present it. I definitely don't want to see another Anders debacle, they may as well have just used a new character considering what happened there.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Really, if there is anything I take away from DA2, its that I fear should they reintroduce Morrigan in the future, they do so in an Anders in DA2 sort of way. Namely, have her be some sort of changed character from when we last saw her, such that all the character development has sort of already happened and you're left figuring the details out as you go along. I just find that uninteresting and a boring way to go about things and I really hope they don't pull that crap with Morrigan.
[/quote]
Indeed, it just comes off as a cheap way to reintroduce the character into the plotline. With Anders, was there really much in the way of details, I don't recall there being much when I played it.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
lol I know! I can imagine the Bioware robots going "MORRIGAN MUST BE IN HER ROBES!" Seriously, as sexy as her outfit is, I rarely kept her equipped in her robes. Often it would be the Archon's Robes (yay health regeneration) or robes with mana bonuses. Either way it would be the more Tevinter-style robes I'd have her wear, and I wasn't bothered by the "look"
[/quote]
I actually preferred to keep Morrigan in her robes but I still appreciated that the option to customise was there. It's a staple feature of an rpg and there's no need to hack it off.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
I actually love Medieval 2 even with its flaws (still do) and I still play it whenever I'm ready to deal with excessive lag due to my laptop being 6 years old and a piece of crap. Out of the TW games I've played, only Rome was a disappointment with its blatant historical inaccuracies. Deus Ex looks awesome, too, and like you said, Terra, I am SO excited for Skyrim. Honestly, I used to always think that Bioware was the one company, RPG-wise, who never disappoint, but after recent 2010 isssues with their games, I've come to realize that Bethesda is truly the company that holds this position in my heart. Since Morrowind, I've loved them and have never been disappointed by the games I've played by them. That includes Fallout 3, which I loved (and I realize others hate it. I've never played the previous fallout installments so I would have no idea).

To me, when it comes to "necessary" "streamlining", Bethesda is the company who does it right, imo, and as their main stories are actually better than most give them credit for (I'm talking about the main plots, which, while pigeonholing the PC in the role of hero, are absolutely engaging), I can easily tolerate the changes, which haven't been too drastic. Sure I missed throwing stars, hitting staves, and crossbows from Morrowind to Oblivion, but overall they keep the essence the same between the games, from my observations. The only thing that saddened me was announcing that classes were dropped (and I missed it only for the titles. I liked having my character be a "Crusader" or "Witchhunter" etc.). I'll say this: as long as there are plenty of options for guilds in Skyrim, I don't perceive a single major disappointment when Skyrim is released.
[/quote]
When I first played DA:O I was blown away that BioWare had managed to get it so "right" for the first time in years (I'd dropped off their games after NWN through till Mass Effect, which I picked up later) and this was playing it on the 360. Thankfully, both Bethesda and Obsidian have demonstrated that all is not lost if BioWare wants to go in some other direction (once again) so based on DA2 I'm refocusing on other developers and will keep an eye on where BW takes DA moving forwards. I will say that in the light the possibilities we had post DA:O with Morrigan, OGB, etc the actual storyline of DA2 was a colossal disappoint imo, with lacklustre companions only furthering my disappointment.

You should play Fallout 1 & 2 (Tactics too if you feel like it) - they're closer to Fallout NV in terms of feel, but I think they're both better than Fallout 3 (which I also enjoyed greatly).

Deus Ex looks absolutely stunning imo and it seems they're striving to retain what made the original title great so I'm really looking forward to that. Skyrim is also looking great and I'm excited that there's a guaranteed SDK for it as well. I always liked breaking into homes and stealing stuff, drinking blood (as a vampire) and arranging all the loot across my various estates. The psychic guards were always a lot of fun too, but the level scaling in Oblivion really annoyed me.


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
Agree with Brock strongly on here. While I didn't mind the loyalty missions myself in ME2, overall companion interaction in the sequels to the current Bioware franchises has been weak compared to the first games. Like Brock said, I value the small talk as well, the "palling around" of sorts, to just get to know the characters. One of my favorite convos in DAO, for example, is the one where Alistair gossips with the Warden about each of the companions and the player gets to choose how their warden reacts. Its a very small quest (one I don't think affects approval unless one denies Alistair answers completely), and does the vital service of adding much-needed character development... as do the other small conversations which are entertaining and give insight into each character, as well as eventual meaning to the bigger companion sidequests which can affect them deeply.
[/quote]
I concur, DA:O is actually one of only a small number of games that offers that flexibility and imo it was very foolish to deem it superfluous to the quintessential DA experience. People were already complaining about it when Awakening hit, yet it seems BioWare had already decided "the way things should be" well in advance of the feedback they claimed to have based many of these changes on. It just demonstrates that the party leader is able to interact with their companions outside of serious business moments.

Excellent example with the Alistair conversation - that's one of my favourites too. I still facepalm when Alistair's like: "Oh that Morrigan is a total b*tch, I can't stand her, what do you think about her?" While the option to slap Alistair is sadly missing from said scene, it is a brilliant example of non-essential dialogue that can add volumes to the player's attachment and understanding of the companions.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Ok, I respect your view, but personally, I felt like I got a lot out of having a voiced PC. So much that I would never want to go back to a silent one. While I love my warden to pieces (just as much as my Hawke), it was a lot more enjoyable to me to actually see my character talk and see her truly get involved in conversations, as opposed to just watching the back of her head for 90% of the game.

I had already learned this from the ME games really (which I played after DA:O), and DA2 just reinforced my love for a voiced protagonist. If I have to sacrifice a bit of companion interaction for that, it's a price I'm personally willing to pay, especially since the interactions I had with those companions felt a hell of a lot more satisfying thanks to the VO.

Granted, I understand that you're irked about the side effect of losing some NPC dialogues (due the resources invested in the voiced PC). As I said, I respect your position (and that of the others in this thread).

As for paraphrasing, I do agree there. While I think they did a better job than in the ME games, the paraphrasing was still off in many ocassions.
[/quote]
Ah, you see for me, this has never been an issue because I don't play from... what I'd describe as a detached perspective. Regardless of whether I'm viewing the scene through the eyes of the PC or from an over the shoulder shot, I never experience the issue you're describing, I'm focused on the conversation at hand as "I" am the active participant in it. I find it much easier to assume the role of a silent PC and bend that avatar to whatever takes my fancy than trying to conform a voiced PC to my will. I view it as the game taking control away from me and doing things I don't particularly want it to do.

ME was fine for me as it was a separate IP with different goals and completely different presentation, Shepard was a defined character and the game was hard-hitting and action-oriented, it was a very good game to "watch" and passively enjoy imo, it doesn't allow for the same kind of immersion I get from a DA:O type experience. I only take issue really with VO to the extent I do because some people decide "I like it how it is in Mass Effect so this is the way all games should be" which imo leads to problems with stagnation down the line, in a similar vein to how the 360 spawned a plethora of identikit FPS titles. And I detest the paraphrasing.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Although I must say, I felt moments like this in Origins as well, where a certain line would be interpreted in a way that it wasn't what I expected from what was shown on the screen. For example, with Morrigan (Hah, my post is now fully on topic! there was the option to ask her "Why are you here?" in camp. The first time I saw that I thought the line was meant to be something like "So what exactly is your goal here? What do you gain by following us?", but of course, Morrigan (and the game I assume) interpret that line as "I want you out of the camp, nao!". Morrigan got pissy and I got a sad...

You could say that that is simply a case of an NPC having a reaction I wasn't expecting, but I still felt the dialogue wasn't very clear in what it's intent was in that case. There were other cases like that in Origins, though it was less of an issue than with the paraphrasing, that's for sure. Still, if you ask me, this is one issue that will affect any dialogue system.
[/quote]
My recollection of said dialogue choice was "Why are you still here?" which seems quite clear to me so maybe you misread it? I do understand the point you're making though (though I don't recall occasions where this happened to me in DA:O) but I think things like the intent icons take it a step too far and bring meta-gaming into the equation. I'd prefer to rarely take the hit with a full text implementation than have to deal with the dual frustration of paraphrasing and shiny intent icons guiding my hand throughout.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
But we did get a chance to dig into the backgrounds of their personal quests as we advanced in the game (and that's something I loved, how the personal quests took place across the whole game). So while the introductions might have felt a bit awkward in certain cases, it still played out alright if you ask me.
[/quote]
Multiple companion quests is a good thing, they should have required greater development of the relationship before each one unlocked though.


[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
And the other thing is, the personal quests from Origins were rather short and in some cases, there wasn't much interaction with the companions (admittedly ths is balanced by all the interactions you had previously, though not many of them might have been related to the personal quest per se). So, while I liked (and loved in the case of Morrigan, Leliana, and Sten) the personal quests from Origins, some of them felt like they could've been expanded quite a bit.
[/quote]
That's a fair point certainly, I'd likely attribute it to the many cuts applied in the late stages of Origins development though, still it's not like DA2 couldn't have used similar expansion in numerous areas.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
True, you, as the player, choose to create that family so you'll naturaly feel more connected to it then to something that writers themselves gave you. But the problem in your case is that making it optional limits the story potential right at the start, since not everyone made the same choice as you did.
Also, DA2 isn't the first case of Bioware giving you a sibling. BG 1 and 2 had Imoen as the PC's half sister. Sure, some people felt no connection to her at all, but that didn't mean you couldn't establish that connection if you wanted to.
[/quote]
God, how could anyone feel no connection to Imoen? I do recall BW screwed it up somehow in BG2 or TOB where none of her conversations would trigger (I think it was BG2 after rescuing her) but yeah I really liked the PC / Imoen development that played out through the whole series, its an example of it being done correctly imo since she's with you since Candlekeep and after getting snatched by Irenicus after the nightmarish escape from his dungeon saving her provides a clear goal from the onset, one that also linked into your heritage as Bhaalspawn. The Sarevok/Imoen banter in TOB was great too as I recall, ah such blissful days. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
True, DA:O had a much wider range of choices and therefore several different endings, ranging from dead Warden, king, councillor, wandering adventurer, etc. Yet, where did that leave us?
You now have a story that branched in so many directions that it's next to impossible to continue it in a meaningful way. Maybe the Warden is dead. Maybe he didn't do the DR and there's no OGB. Maybe he/she rules Ferelden. Maybe he followed Morrigan.
[/quote]
Not true. The warden is either dead or missing, that's two possible states (with missing possibly branching between mirror world and Awakening/DA2 disappearance). Considering how Flemeth escaped death and the fact that the warden was unconcious and in her "care" for a considerable amount of time, there's a possible get out clause there. The OGB either exists or it does not, that's really all that matters. Being king / queen etc is completely irrelevant in the state that DA2 leaves things in. Based on recent retcons I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of stand in for the OGB. Move the story outside of Ferelden and 99% of the choices become redundant and the Warden/Orlesian Warden are almost interchangeable.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
All those different choices in DA:O did in the end is box Bioware into a corner. Now, even if they wanted to, they cannot give us a meaningful resolution to DR and OGB without crapping over everyone who didn't make that choice. They cannot give you a reunion between Warden and Morrigan when only some of DA:O playerbase choose that path.
[/quote]
And yet the "Hero of Ferelden" worldstate is one of the possible choices when beginning DA2. BW can bring the warden back, perhaps not as PC, the demand is there and while you might be perfectly fulfilled with one singular resolution to Morrigan's arc I daresay many people will not be. It really depends on Morrigan's role when she returns, I personally think it'll be Flemeth-esque which is why they could easily bring only those wardens who went with her into the picture. However, considering some dev comments on the matter I think the wardens will be coming back into the picture in the future regardless.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Multiple choices are all well and good, but only if the story truly ends with them. Otherwise you're creating more problems in the long run.
[/quote]
Then BW should drop the no-canon, your choices matter statements and endeavour to sufficiently wrap up loose ends that players would take issue with, ie: LI tying in with larger plot threads and launching new threads that apparently can't be followed up on in the closing moments.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Personal story focusing on family is what DA2 was about. That doesn't mean DA3 or whichever title has Morrigan returning will do the same. The "family" you talk about is optional. You cannot build a huge story about something that only a certain number of players choose to do.
While Morrigan is flagged as one of the central characters in DA franchise, much like Flemeth, her story isn't about a potential child she may or may have not had or a romance that may or may not have happened.
[/quote]
I think Brock's getting at the fact that it'd be preferable to see BioWare covering all their bases when Morrigan returns by accounting for the the Morrigan/Warden/OGB scenario. Certainly, even seeing them all onscreen makes me a hell of a lot more invested in the game than being fed some one line excuse. As discussed earlier in my post, little things like that can hugely enrich the experience one has with the game and it doesn't take massive amounts of resources to add a little divergence to the plotline. Like MKDAWUSS touched upon earlier, you can get away with minor references for things like Leliana's cameo in DA2, but the Morrigan variables have pretty damn strong ties to certain Origins characters and imo they should be involved in the finale of Morrigan's arc, which I'm guessing will not be a five minute cameo.


[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
If DA2 was any indication, you can expect the OGB and Morrigan/Warden romance to result in a few different dialogue lines or a quest or 2. Anything more than that is blowing the expectations out of proportion.
[/quote]
Not really, if BioWare was half as progressive as they like to make out then they'd have already employed branching narrative within their story. Alistair making a reference to the queen is really just a pathetic cameo for the sake of a cameo imo. Still, I suppose by setting the bar quite so low you won't be disappointed. Other games have employed branching to great effect, Witcher 2 claims to have 3 unique openings based on your previous actions, so I'll be interested to see how that plays out.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think the flaw here is the entire design philosophy. I am starting to doubt if Bioware knows where it's heading and it seems to me as if it's just throwing as much stuff out there as possible. All we end up having is a myriad of loose ends.
[/quote]
I do wonder sometimes if they are just winging it...

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's why games like Origins should not have sequels. And that's why they should have closure, but Origins didn't. I was willing to accept what I had in Origins as closure, until WH came in and gave me an option that does not provide closure, but is rather a massive loose end. Of course all end choices are rendered moot anyhow as the Warden
disappears no matter what.
[/quote]
I'm not sure, I'm conflicted on this because if you played a warden that would have followed Morrigan after Origins, you'd still have that massive loose end imo. But it comes back to the illogical way the DR/endgame played out for a romancing warden that didn't allow them to go with Morrigan for no discernable reason (except a plot hammer moment).

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Wonder if in DA3 we have to work our way into a secret room and Flemeth keeps repeating some random numbers....
[/quote]
That's DLC-only content. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

TM;DR

[Terra_Ex]

Brockololly wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...
A lengthy post packed with content follows, I think I'm caught up with everything now.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

BWAAA- Simultaneous epic posts![smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]There's been a bit of an epic post overload of late, even Zjarcal has been trying to get in on it.

Brockololly wrote...
Take this one for instance though- on Brent Knowles' blog from a couple weeks ago, somebody asked whether the Warden was intended to come back for DA2. Brent's response:

I was a bit surprised at the change of the character but given the shift to a human-only main character it was inevitable I guess. When I was at BioWare it wasn't 100% decided if the Grey Warden would remain the hero of the franchise but I had assumed this would probably be the case.

I had hoped at the very least that his mark on the world would have  carried over somehow to the sequel (are there statues or monuments of  the warden in the world? Or books?)

So, yeah, make of that what you will.....[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

This deserves an epic post of it's own to fully convey my feelings regarding it.

leeboi2 wrote...
TM;DR

I'll make a DA2 styled version later, with lots of sarcastic mask icons and angry hammers spaced throughout.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 08 avril 2011 - 12:59 .

[TheBlackBaron]

ReiSilver wrote...
and for you Morri-mancers here's some links to some of my Morrigan art

<3

I was a bit surprised at the change of the character but given the shift to a human-only main character it was inevitable I guess. When I was at BioWare it wasn't 100% decided if the Grey Warden would remain the hero of the franchise but I had assumed this would probably be the case.

I had hoped at the very least that his mark on the world would have  carried over somehow to the sequel (are there statues or monuments of  the warden in the world? Or books?)

*sigh*

If that's what the original plan was, then for god's sake why did they not just make the Warden DA's Shepard if that's what they really wanted to do? I love Marian Hawke, but I'd have even been okay with the Warden being voiced if it meant continuing all the important threads he started and was a part of. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 avril 2011 - 12:55 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Chanter voice:
WHAT EPIC POSTS HATH MORRI LOVE WROUGHT!

/chanter voice.

[UFOash]

Bleh, I'd say its a good job I have a good imagination, cause I doubt we'll ever get closure on Morrigan.

Thats part of the reason mass Effect went the way it went, a bunch of unrelated cameos to show what you did and didn't do in the last game, because if they give out so many choices and they all intermingle, the sequal will be overloaded.

I didn't bother, and won't bother, buying Dragon Age 2 because my hero is gone and so is the land he fought in, not to mention the characters.
I've heard of the cameos, but tbh I didn't recruit half the characters on my main and I killed Oghren in Awakening (I mean he got killed ), the only other two I had were Morrigan, who I know isn't in it, and Alistair who I doubt has much part to play in it.

I'd love to think "in DA3 it will all come together and all the ends will be tied and my character will return and DA1 and DA2's systems will merge to make the perfect Dragon Age" but it obviously won't.
Why do they give our characters all these relationships and choices and leave them open, if they are throwing out our characters?

Like Phoenix said, it would've been better off if they'd just tied it up in the one game, or maybe made the game like a two-parter (two discs) or something and had all the story together.

Seems to me like they are trying to build a big-ass franchise thing, I've not played DA2, is it even possible for our Warden to come back now? With this hawke stuff how would they even do it?

I doubt I'll be buying any more Dragon Ages unless DA3 is some weird revert where our Warden comes back everything is back to before.
And it would need imports from DAO without DA2 saves, so I'm not holding my breath.

Modifié par UFOash, 08 avril 2011 - 01:08 .

[UFOash]

Plus:

MORRIGAN IS WAITING

Modifié par UFOash, 08 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[ximena]

Hahaha. Morrigan's glare of disapproval!



by jubah at deviantART

P.S. Edric makes a cameo there. XD

[Giggles_Manically]

What does Morrigan not disapprove of?