16183 réponses à ce sujet

[LetsGoToMyHouse]

Just thought I'd contribute with spreading the Morrigan love with a picture I recently drew featuring my Warden Lyon Cousland!

[LilleF]

I too am against any pairing other than with the warden, and I think that is how the Morrigan character has been designed.

To be fascinated with a romance with Morrigan, the PC has to be fascinated in the chase for her feelings and not her body. And that makes the bond between the character and player stronger I think. And thus a foot stamping "no no no no no" to any suggestion of Morrigan with anyone, especially whiny Alistair.

But whatever your opinion on it, kudos to writers that can make a character that we are still mooning over 560 pages and a couple of years on.

Modifié par LilleF, 25 mai 2011 - 07:29 .

[Esbatty]

LetsGoToMyHouse wrote...

Just thought I'd contribute with spreading the Morrigan love with a picture I recently drew featuring my Warden Lyon Cousland!

*snip*

Morrigan fulfills all my sideboob needs! 

[Jarlof Seoul]

LilleF wrote...

I too am against any pairing other than with the warden, and I think that is how the Morrigan character has been designed.

To be fascinated with a romance with Morrigan, the PC has to be fascinated in the chase for her feelings and not her body. And that makes the bond between the character and player stronger I think. And thus a foot stamping "no no no no no" to any suggestion of Morrigan with anyone, especially whiny Alistair.

But whatever your opinion on it, kudos to writers that can make a character that we are still mooning over 560 pages and a couple of years on.

Indeed. Morrigan is one of the greatest RPG characters ever. nice that she has the body to go with here alluring personality.

[ziagg]

To be true to the "Research" in the thread title - "equal love" actually does work for Witch Hunt. There was something else preventing the relationship from being recognized in my case, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what.

The console command runscript zz_str_morrigan let me set the flags how I THOUGHT they would have been after Origins, and finally, I got my Morrigan closure : )

[Zjarcal]

ziagg wrote...

To be true to the "Research" in the thread title - "equal love" actually does work for Witch Hunt. There was something else preventing the relationship from being recognized in my case, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what.

The console command runscript zz_str_morrigan let me set the flags how I THOUGHT they would have been after Origins, and finally, I got my Morrigan closure : )

YAY! Good to know you finally worked that out. 

[Master Shiori]

ziagg wrote...

To be true to the "Research" in the thread title - "equal love" actually does work for Witch Hunt. There was something else preventing the relationship from being recognized in my case, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what.

The console command runscript zz_str_morrigan let me set the flags how I THOUGHT they would have been after Origins, and finally, I got my Morrigan closure : )

Good to hear you found a solution to your problem. 

[Alex Kershaw]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I don’t remember a discussion about Morrigan’s nightmare in the Fade so I’ll ask about it here.

Her nightmare strikes me as the oddest out of them all.

She knows that it’s the Fade, she knows that staying in there would eventually kill her, right?

What was she doing there the whole time? Was Morrigan standing around and just….waiting……to be……rescued?

Is it because the spirit looks like her mother? Then does this actually show that Morrigan is vulnerable and/or immature?

Or maybe she was just being manipulative and waited for the Warden to do the dirty work.

Maybe she didn't want to risk taking on the demon by herself? No doubt she would have attempted it had she not been rescued, but maybe she decided to wait for a little while to see if anyone was there to help with the demon - Morrigan knows better than to underestimate them...

I also love how she knew she was in the Fade

[Brockololly]

And in case anyone was myopic enough to hold out hope of the Warden returning in the near future, Laidlaw confirmed the silent protagonist is officially dead to BioWare. So at most we'll likely get a terrible VO for the Warden or a voiceless cameo or more than likely Hawke crawling out from under some rock to come deal with Morrigan in the future.

Lovely. Truly.

Modifié par Brockololly, 27 mai 2011 - 02:43 .

[GSSAGE7]

Brockololly wrote...

And in case anyone was myopic enough to hold out hope of the Warden returning in the near future, Laidlaw confirmed the silent protagonist is officially dead to BioWare. So at most we'll likely get a terrible VO for the Warden or a voiceless cameo or more than likely Hawke crawling out from under some rock to come deal with Morrigan in the future.

Here's a thought that L.A. Noir gave me.
The Warden had a lot of VAs in Origins, although they only had a unplayable quips. Maybe they get some of them (I imagine not all of them would be able to get on short notice), and get all of them to do the lines, like with Hawke.
As for what LA Noir gave me? Maybe 2 or more discs, to deal with the massive amount of memory that would require, or at least need them to be uploaded onto the game system like an expansion?

[Brockololly]

GSSAGE7 wrote...
Here's a thought that L.A. Noir gave me.
The Warden had a lot of VAs in Origins, although they only had a unplayable quips. Maybe they get some of them (I imagine not all of them would be able to get on short notice), and get all of them to do the lines, like with Hawke.
As for what LA Noir gave me? Maybe 2 or more discs, to deal with the massive amount of memory that would require, or at least need them to be uploaded onto the game system like an expansion?

Well, I'm not necessarily opposed to player VO, but it depends on the game. Something like Origins where you have multiple different PC's would each require a different voice actor. And I think cost wise, thats not feasible for developers. Thats why I don't like player VO- it sucks up resources I think would be better spent elsewhere.

UNtil the day comes where you can choose different voices or alter how they sound in game, I won't be a fan of it, at least in how BioWare seems intent on doing it in games like ME or DA2. I'd prefer a more defined protagonist at that point like TW or Deus Ex, so you can at least have some decent reactivity.

[GSSAGE7]

Brockololly wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...
Here's a thought that L.A. Noir gave me.
The Warden had a lot of VAs in Origins, although they only had a unplayable quips. Maybe they get some of them (I imagine not all of them would be able to get on short notice), and get all of them to do the lines, like with Hawke.
As for what LA Noir gave me? Maybe 2 or more discs, to deal with the massive amount of memory that would require, or at least need them to be uploaded onto the game system like an expansion?

Well, I'm not necessarily opposed to player VO, but it depends on the game. Something like Origins where you have multiple different PC's would each require a different voice actor. And I think cost wise, thats not feasible for developers. Thats why I don't like player VO- it sucks up resources I think would be better spent elsewhere.

UNtil the day comes where you can choose different voices or alter how they sound in game, I won't be a fan of it, at least in how BioWare seems intent on doing it in games like ME or DA2. I'd prefer a more defined protagonist at that point like TW or Deus Ex, so you can at least have some decent reactivity.

After thinking about it a bit, it wouldn't exactly be cost effective to get all 36 VAs from Origins back. I honestly forgot just how many they got.

[MKDAWUSS]

[quote]GSSAGE7 wrote...

[/quote] After thinking about it a bit, it wouldn't exactly be cost effective to get all 36 VAs from Origins back. I honestly forgot just how many they got.
[/quote]

Each also voiced a different character.

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Well, I'm not necessarily opposed to player VO, but it depends on the game. Something like Origins where you have multiple different PC's would each require a different voice actor. And I think cost wise, thats not feasible for developers. Thats why I don't like player VO- it sucks up resources I think would be better spent elsewhere.

UNtil the day comes where you can choose different voices or alter how they sound in game, I won't be a fan of it, at least in how BioWare seems intent on doing it in games like ME or DA2. I'd prefer a more defined protagonist at that point like TW or Deus Ex, so you can at least have some decent reactivity.

I don't think we're likely to see a VO in games where we can choose between multiple races (DA:O). Otherwise the whole thing would eat to much of the budget or they'd need to get lucky and find 2 people who can voice all 3 races properly, which is next to impossible imo.

But for games where the protagonist's race is already defined in advance, like ME or DA2, VO do actually add quite a bit to the overall experience, and I mean in a good way.

I also doubt they'll ever make a game where the protagonist will be as closely defined as Gerald is in TW. Bioware always aim to allow for some level of custiomization in their games, at very least things like gender, class and abilities.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

I don't think we're likely to see a VO in games where we can choose between multiple races (DA:O). Otherwise the whole thing would eat to much of the budget or they'd need to get lucky and find 2 people who can voice all 3 races properly, which is next to impossible imo.

I think you've got i backwards- we're never likely to see another BioWare game that offers as much choice as Origins in terms of the PC, outside of some MMO.

Master Shiori wrote...
I also doubt they'll ever make a game where the protagonist will be as closely defined as Gerald is in TW. Bioware always aim to allow for some level of custiomization in their games, at very least things like gender, class and abilities.

They will, I bet. I'd go so far as to wager that whatever game they come out with after ME3, hell, maybe even DA3, will have a more fixed protagonist, even more than before.

*sigh* I have to stop reading Laidlaw threads as they always strike just the right note and put me in a foul mood when it comes to how DA as a franchise seems intent on slowly circling the toilet bowl of mediocrity.

Modifié par Brockololly, 27 mai 2011 - 02:15 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

I think you've got i backwards- we're never likely to see another BioWare game that offers as much choice as Origins in terms of the PC, outside of some MMO.

No, because they never ruled it out. Just because they decided to go with a more defined protagonist for DA2 doesn't mean they'll use this formula for every DA game from here on out.
By folowing that logic one could say that NWN marked the end of party based combat in Bioware games or that ME marked the end of Bioware making fantasy rpgs.

Personally, I'd wait and see what happens. 

Brockololly wrote...



They will, I bet. I'd go so far as to wager that whatever game they come out with after ME3, hell, maybe even DA3, will have a more fixed protagonist, even more than before.

*sigh* I have to stop reading Laidlaw threads as they always strike just the right note and put me in a foul mood when it comes to how DA as a franchise seems intent on slowly circling the toilet bowl of mediocrity.

Fixed protagonists like Geralt are only used when the character in question is from a novel, and therefore, so well defined that you simply cannot change anything. CDProjekt has to work under this restriction since simply replacing Geralt with a random Witcher wouldn't work for people who love the TW series.

I saw the same thing with 2 games based on Raymond E. Feists Riftwar series (recommended reading for anyone who likes fantasy, especially Daughter of the Empire series). All the characters there were, like Geralt and co, from a series of novels and you couldn't change their looks, class or personality in any way.

DA2 simply locked in your origin and race for story related reasons. Introducing further restrictions on potential classes or personality would destroy the very point of rpgs.


I'm not sure which part of Laidlaw's post put you in a bad mood. Was it the fact they plan to keep the voiced PC, dialogue wheel and paraphrases? If so, I can see why you'd feel bad about it, especially if the such system really doesn't appeal to you. But Gaider did promise that they're going to improve the way paraphrases are written in order to reduce confussion in the future. As for voiced protagonist, who, besides Bethesda even uses a silent protagonist in their games anymore? I know CDProjekt always had Geralt as a voice pc. Not to say that silent pc is bad or anything, but it seems like it's stedily falling out of use in rpgs.

[Terra_Ex]

I'm putting angry Morri at the top here (though I'm not particularly annoyed atm.) Since we're discussing defined protagonists I decided to have a bit of a ramble.

Brockololly wrote...
And in case anyone was myopic enough to hold out hope of the Warden returning in the near future, Laidlaw confirmed the silent protagonist is officially dead to BioWare. So at most we'll likely get a terrible VO for the Warden or a voiceless cameo or more than likely Hawke crawling out from under some rock to come deal with Morrigan in the future.

We knew this already really through Gaider's comments weeks ago on paraphrase improvement, if there can even be such a thing. In much the same way that Gaider's repeated statements regarding a toolset only benefitting PC users are a fairly clear indication of how that will pan out. If you expect anything on-screen re: the warden at this point I'd lower it to a single epilogue slide at most. It's interesting to see the route TW2 took, they seemingly ditched Shani as LI and made Triss the canon LI (I'll avoid spoilers since I know you've not finished it Brock). With the way things seem to going it seems they've taken elements/choices with the most plot potential and rolled with them, which seems the best move imo.

Brockololly wrote...
Well, I'm not necessarily opposed to player VO, but it depends on the game. Something like Origins where you have multiple different PC's would each require a different voice actor. And I think cost wise, thats not feasible for developers. Thats why I don't like player VO- it sucks up resources I think would be better spent elsewhere.

I've always been a fan of only voicing important scenes, that's what most of the better JRPGs do, thus allowing for the best use of resources; as many fluff conversations as you like and the pivotal stuff is fully voiced. Same thing with cinematics - they should be saved for the big moments in games rather than flung at the player at every opportunity which simply pulls you out of the experience as you're sat around watching for a variable length of time. I don't draw a distinction between a VO PC and a PC who "talks"  via text in a completely unvoiced game as they're one and the same if the text appears without me needing to select something. Though one obviously costs more to use than the other.

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
I also doubt they'll ever make a game where the protagonist will be as closely defined as Gerald is in TW. Bioware always aim to allow for some level of custiomization in their games, at very least things like gender, class and abilities.

They will, I bet. I'd go so far as to wager that whatever game they come out with after ME3, hell, maybe even DA3, will have a more fixed protagonist, even more than before.

If they want to create a protagonist that doesn't ostracise portions of their audience, they certainly will, though compared to the dismal failure that was Hawke, this might be a good thing. What Witcher 2 really underlined for me is that a PC voiceover only works with a properly defined PC, such as Geralt. You need to take away some of that customisation for it to work properly, which is why Hawke style characters (which are very rare imo) who reside in some bizarre middle ground of "it's your character, but its not" ultimately fail at providing the flexibility of silent PC and the traditional appeal of an interesting defined character. Or another way of looking at it is that they're writing their voiced PC in the manner they wrote their silent PCs, which doesn't work... at all. This explains why I have such a problem with BW's implementation of voiced PCs yet it has never bothered me in any other games, they tease with supposed freedom that is ultimately never really manifests itself or even matters in game.

Brockololly wrote...
*sigh* I have to stop reading Laidlaw threads as they always strike just the right note and put me in a foul mood when it comes to how DA as a franchise seems intent on slowly circling the toilet bowl of mediocrity.

You need to finish TW2 Brock, you'll have something new to focus on

Master Shiori wrote...
No, because they never ruled it out. Just because they decided to go with a more defined protagonist for DA2 doesn't mean they'll use this formula for every DA game from here on out. By folowing that logic one could say that NWN marked the end of party based combat in Bioware games or that ME marked the end of Bioware making fantasy rpgs.

...

Fixed protagonists like Geralt are only used when the character in question is from a novel, and therefore, so well defined that you simply cannot change anything. CDProjekt has to work under this restriction since simply replacing Geralt with a random Witcher wouldn't work for people who love the TW series.

I saw the same thing with 2 games based on Raymond E. Feists Riftwar series (recommended reading for anyone who likes fantasy, especially Daughter of the Empire series). All the characters there were, like Geralt and co, from a series of novels and you couldn't change their looks, class or personality in any way.

DA2 simply locked in your origin and race for story related reasons. Introducing further restrictions on potential classes or personality would destroy the very point of rpgs.

Hmmm, speaking generally a defined protagonist as I see it has little to do with their looks, race etc and more to do with their impetus in the story and character traits- basically what makes them who they are, they need a personality, journey and end goal that draws the player in and that was what was missing in DA2 for me. With silent protagonists you can define most of this yourself and it's easier to slip into the character and shape these things yourself, a well-defined character like Geralt does it differently, allowing you to assume that role for a period of time but you're under no illusion that the character is your own. Hawke (and to a lesser degree Shepard) do not fit either of these and thus enjoy none of the benefits due to the issues I noted above.

Witcher 2 has paraphrases but because we the player know who Geralt is within the game world, there is far less ambiguity and guesswork as to what Geralt is going to say because he is well-defined (similar to Shepard, we know he/she just "gets stuff done", that part is set in stone). We know Geralt is a witcher, we know he hunts monsters, has been around for a good many years, has a relationship with a sorceress, has lost his memory and has his own views on the world. This is apparent from the opening moments when he speaks to Triss. Thus we can focus on making important choices through Geralt instead of thinking "God, I wonder what Geralt is going to say this time?" We can experience and relate to his journey, trials & triumphs because these things form an interesting and defined character within the game world. Hawke by being semi-defined cannot be related to in the same way by the player, we don't know who Hawke is or what is really driving him because BioWare left these things up to the player to decide, which is part of what creates the frustration with the paraphrases/personality mismatches - because we don't know "who" Hawke is within the context of the game world, any paraphrased response will by definition be a guess. This pervades throughout the game as the player poses the question "why is Hawke still sticking around in Kirkwall?" (And that's rhetorical).

Imo, as I've said before the personality system is a waste of time and Hawke should have been more defined, shaped instead via the choices he made during major events (difficult choices that would have given meaning to being the Champion) - that would have been a better way to tell Hawke's story. Ultimately it matters little what personality you choose and because Hawke is essentially an onlooker to most events he doesn't grow or develop through them. I'd look to Growlanser 2 & Tactics Ogre protagonists as examples of how to develop a character through events, both of which feature talking protagonists (TO isn't voiced but the protagonist still talks at length which is essentially the same) whose views and interactions with characters change based on the choices you make in the game and they both branch into different stories multiple times. Thus we see the same character grow in different ways based on your choice, their personality and relations with allies/enemies changing based on meaningful choice. Witcher 2 is another good example of this, albeit with less branching. The point being, Geralt coming from a book has little to do with it, protagonists in most games are very well defined (across all genres, practically every JRPG has a defined protagonist and some of my favourite games fall into that genre) which is why we have little trouble becoming those characters during play and experiencing events through them. Hawke's lack of definition as a believable character before player involvement is what I feel causes BW's use of VO to fail. I will say that this affects Hawke more than Shepard though, Shepard is sufficiently defined that you can hit the male/female switch and they're still by and large the same character but both have sufficient backstory and definition that they're an interesting character and known quantity within the game world itself - before the player assumes control.

So as Brock commented on above, VO supports defined characters, BioWare is not writing sufficiently defined protagonists for DA to justify VO. I think in order for VO to be accepted by players like myself, some aspects of choice need to be removed from the protagonist, otherwise you end up with a character that spends the whole game reacting / working at the behest of others as we saw with DA2. A voiced PC can be just as effective as a silent but the onus is on the developer to make them as interesting as the rest of the companions, it all comes down to how they utilise it. I find it particularly annoying because when BW do get it right (on a game-wide level), the results are pretty damn good, however since BG2 I've found BW's quality is akin to a sine wave, now with EA's greater involvement in their titles I'm wondering if this latest dip into mediocrity will be permanent.

Master Shiori wrote...
I'm not sure which part of Laidlaw's post put you in a bad mood. Was it the fact they plan to keep the voiced PC, dialogue wheel and paraphrases? If so, I can see why you'd feel bad about it, especially if the such system really doesn't appeal to you. But Gaider did promise that they're going to improve the way paraphrases are written in order to reduce confussion in the future. As for voiced protagonist, who, besides Bethesda even uses a silent protagonist in their games anymore? I know CDProjekt always had Geralt as a voice pc. Not to say that silent pc is bad or anything, but it seems like it's stedily falling out of use in rpgs.

Atlus' Shin Megami Tensei series and its many spin offs have always used silent PCs and continue to do so - spin offs Persona 3 & 4 met with considerable acclaim when released, Dragon Quest (arguably Japan's most popular rpg series), Obsidian's F:NV, From Software's Demon's Souls, numerous FPS titles, a large number of titles on portable consoles, the list goes on. But, the real point is, its not a matter of using/not using VO, if its going to be used it needs to be done properly. The argument of "everyone else is doing it, so we should too" leads to stagnation, so in saying "we won't be going back to xyz" BioWare essentially has two of its primary franchises cross-pollinating with a heavily cinematic focus, dialogue wheel and shorter playtimes rather than two distinct franchises that carve out their own respective paths. Of course, standing apart from the crowd by utilising a silent protagonist has its own benefits by providing a different experience than the plethora that rely on full VO. I think as with so much else, the cinematics/VO bandwagon will run its course in the same way the race for the best graphics will and it'll be time to re-evaluate and approach things differently.

That was longer than expected, I've grumbled enough for today. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] A new Shogun 2 campaign awaits.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 27 mai 2011 - 10:13 .

[MegaBadExample]

As long as the warden comes back I don't really care if he's voiced or not. Even though there's like a 1/30 chance of him ever returning as a main character again.

[Master Shiori]

Terra_Ex wrote...

What Witcher 2 really underlined for me is that a PC voiceover only works with a properly defined PC, such as Geralt. You need to take away some of that customisation for it to work properly, which is why Hawke style characters (which are very rare imo) who reside in some bizarre middle ground of "it's your character, but its not" ultimately fail at providing the flexibility of silent PC and the traditional appeal of an interesting defined character. Or another way of looking at it is that they're writing their voiced PC in the manner they wrote their silent PCs, which doesn't work... at all.

My view on the issue is this:

There is NO difference between a voiced, more defined protagonist ike Hawke and the silent, less defined protagonist like the Warden.

For all that people try to convince themselves and others, the Warden only had one voice, despite not speaking. Every reply you had available in DA:O was written as either friendly, sarcastic/funny, aggresive or as an investigate question to provide more information on the subject. The fact that you didn't have an icon next to it to clarify this didn't change the fact that this is the only way an npc will understand it. DA2 system didn't change anything in this regard apart from making it easier to understand the tone of your replies. 

Hawke was defined by me, with every choice I made and every opinion I ever expressed during the course of the game. I'm the one who shaped him/her as a character based on how I delt with Qunari, templars, mages, what I said about magic when talking to Cullen or Anders, how I choose to help or not help certain individuals during the game, etc. We can argue whether the implementation here was good or bad but doesn't change the fact that you could shape your character as you played.

By comparison, Geralt is too heavily defined in terms of race, gender, profession, personality, relationships and moral outlook. Yes, I have several options to choose from when dealing with problems in TW, but if I wanted to be true to Geralt as he's portrayed in the books, then I realisticaly only have 1 correct option. Everything else makes Geralt appear ooc. That's not true of characters in DA or Fallout or Elder Scrolls.

Terra_Ex wrote...


Hmmm, speaking generally a defined protagonist as I see it has little to do with their looks, race etc and more to do with their impetus in the story and character traits- basically what makes them who they are, they need a personality, journey and end goal that draws the player in and that was what was missing in DA2 for me.

There were different goals in each act. Act 1 was about building a life for your family. Act 2 was about dealing with the tensions between Qunari and citizens of Kirkwall. Act 3 was about dealing with the conflict between mages and templars. The problem, for me, was that the goals were well defined but the overall storyline and sense of purpose was conveyed very badly in Act 3 and the quests given to achieve that goal didn't really relay it's importance well. That's why most people fee like Hawke was unresponsive. It's more of a general flaw of how Act 3 was made, rather than a flaw of the protagonist himself/herself.

Terra_Ex wrote...



With silent protagonists you can define most of this yourself and it's easier to slip into the character and shape these things yourself, a well-defined character like Geralt does it differently, allowing you to assume that role for a period of time but you're under no illusion that the character is your own. Hawke (and to a lesser degree Shepard) do not fit either of these and thus enjoy none of the benefits due to the issues I noted above.

Hawke and Shepard are defined in a very limited way. You know their race, background and voice. Everything else is up to you to tailor as you see fit. I never found that slipping into the character of a voiced protagonist was any harder than slipping into a silent protagonist. I dont have a problem with Geralt either, but he comes across as a very different character from what I'd find in Bioware or Bethseda games.

Terra_Ex wrote...


Witcher 2 has paraphrases but because we the player know who Geralt is within the game world, there is far less ambiguity and guesswork as to what Geralt is going to say because he is well-defined (similar to Shepard, we know he/she just "gets stuff done", that part is set in stone). We know Geralt is a witcher, we know he hunts monsters, has been around for a good many years, has a relationship with a sorceress, has lost his memory and has his own views on the world. This is apparent from the opening moments when he speaks to Triss. Thus we can focus on making important choices through Geralt instead of thinking "God, I wonder what Geralt is going to say this time?" We can experience and relate to his journey, trials & triumphs because these things form an interesting and defined character within the game world. Hawke by being semi-defined cannot be related to in the same way by the player, we don't know who Hawke is or what is really driving him because BioWare left these things up to the player to decide, which is part of what creates the frustration with the paraphrases/personality mismatches - because we don't know "who" Hawke is within the context of the game world, any paraphrased response will by definition be a guess. This pervades throughout the game as the player poses the question "why is Hawke still sticking around in Kirkwall?" (And that's rhetorical).

The problem isn't that paraphrase system by itself is bad, but rather that it wasn't written well enough to convey what you're actually going to say. This is something David Gaider acknowledged and promised that Bioware writers will try to improve for future games. 

Terra_Ex wrote...




Imo, as I've said before the personality system is a waste of time and Hawke should have been more defined, shaped instead via the choices he made during major events (difficult choices that would have given meaning to being the Champion) - that would have been a better way to tell Hawke's story. Ultimately it matters little what personality you choose and because Hawke is essentially an onlooker to most events he doesn't grow or develop through them. I'd look to Growlanser 2 & Tactics Ogre protagonists as examples of how to develop a character through events, both of which feature talking protagonists (TO isn't voiced but the protagonist still talks at length which is essentially the same) whose views and interactions with characters change based on the choices you make in the game and they both branch into different stories multiple times. Thus we see the same character grow in different ways based on your choice, their personality and relations with allies/enemies changing based on meaningful choice. Witcher 2 is another good example of this, albeit with less branching. The point being, Geralt coming from a book has little to do with it, protagonists in most games are very well defined (across all genres, practically every JRPG has a defined protagonist and some of my favourite games fall into that genre) which is why we have little trouble becoming those characters during play and experiencing events through them. Hawke's lack of definition as a believable character before player involvement is what I feel causes BW's use of VO to fail. I will say that this affects Hawke more than Shepard though, Shepard is sufficiently defined that you can hit the male/female switch and they're still by and large the same character but both have sufficient backstory and definition that they're an interesting character and known quantity within the game world itself - before the player assumes control. 

That's the fault of writing, not of the character herself. I felt there were plenty of instances where I could define Hawke, but my choices not reflecting well or not making a major difference is the fault of how the story is presented, not of my character's inability to try and make a difference. 
Example: Both the Hawke who sides with templars and the one who sides with mages have different outlooks and reasons for doing so. There may even be variations within both of those choices such as agreeing that templars are neccesary but not with how Meredith does things, or wanting to help the mages but not start a full blown revolution to do so. These things are reflected in dialogue itself, but not in your actions which always result in the same scenario regardless of your motivation and reasoning.
TW2, from what I've heard, shapes and changes according to your choices so much that you can almost play an entirely different game. This is great, but it's more to the credit of CD Projekt and its writers than to Geralt being a more strongly defined character. DA2 could have done the same thing with Hawke had Bioware been allowed to take their time with it's development.

Shepard wasn't as defined as many players like to think. He was defined only in a sense that he's a human marine with the Alliance who's asigned to the Normandy. His background, career highlights before the events of ME1, his personality and attitude towards many issue in the galaxy like the Genophage, Quarian/Geth conflict, alien races, Citadel Council, Humanity's role in the wider galaxy are all up to me, as a player, to determine.
The true restriction here is actually the Paragon/Renegade "morality" which can heavily influence and restict how your character reacts, mostly due to being forced to max out those respective scores.
The paraphrase system was deisgned to fit perfectly with ME morality, and it need heavy modification to work properly with a game like DA where morality is presented in a different way. DA2 didn't do a good enough job with that even though it wasn't a bad try. It simply requires more polish and improvement to truly works as intended.

Terra_Ex wrote...



Atlus' Shin Megami Tensei series and its many spin offs have always used silent PCs and continue to do so - spin offs Persona 3 & 4 met with considerable acclaim when released, Dragon Quest (arguably Japan's most popular rpg series), Obsidian's F:NV, From Software's Demon's Souls, numerous FPS titles, a large number of titles on portable consoles, the list goes on. But, the real point is, its not a matter of using/not using VO, if its going to be used it needs to be done properly. The argument of "everyone else is doing it, so we should too" leads to stagnation, so in saying "we won't be going back to xyz" BioWare essentially has two of its primary franchises cross-pollinating with a heavily cinematic focus, dialogue wheel and shorter playtimes rather than two distinct franchises that carve out their own respective paths. Of course, standing apart from the crowd by utilising a silent protagonist has its own benefits by providing a different experience than the plethora that rely on full VO. I think as with so much else, the cinematics/VO bandwagon will run its course in the same way the race for the best graphics will and it'll be time to re-evaluate and approach things differently.

It'll always be time to re-evaluate things at some point. That's what progress is about.

Yes, it needs to be done properly but that may require going through trial and error. I have no problem if Bioware doesn't do it right the first time around, as long as they are willing to learn from the mistakes and improve.

From reading fan reactions on these forums, my feeling is that some people think that "learning from our mistakes" must mean "going back to how things were before" and not "improving things as they are now to work better in the future".

I don't feel that VO, paraphrases and dialogue wheel were bad ideas as such, just that they need improvement to work properly. 

I loved seeing Shepard's or Hawke's facial expressions and reactions during dialogue. That's what I dont want to lose. If you can let me keep that with a silent protagonist then fine. But as it stands now I really don't see any adventage to having a silent protagonist in games other than some imaginary roleplaying in my head, which doesn't have an effect on the game in any way. At least not for me.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 28 mai 2011 - 12:51 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

I've just subscribed to tumblr...and while checking for Morrigan I found this: 


by: YamaO


I don't know, who find this disturbing and who finds this to make sense?

Personally, I prefer Morrigan with the Warden and Isabela (or Merrill) with Hawke but considering of silent characters gone for good and who knows if the Warden will return, VO and all that at this early stage of wandering about DA3, would it be surprising to see that Morrigan and Hawke might end up "working" together?, afterall, Hawke went and screw things up for Morrigan and the Warden regarding Flemeth.

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 28 mai 2011 - 04:57 .

[LetsGoToMyHouse]

If this ^ happened.....I'd be SOOOOO pissed haha

[GSSAGE7]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I've just subscribed to tumblr...and while checking for Morrigan I found this: 


by: YamaO

And then one frame later, Morrigan freezes Hawke solid for bringing her mother back to life after she made the Warden kill her last time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I always knew this would ****** me off, but I am actually surprised at how much this pisses me off. I want the thread to move to the next page so I don't have to this this piece of ****.

[Lord_Anthonior]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I always knew this would ****** me off, but I am actually surprised at how much this pisses me off. I want the thread to move to the next page so I don't have to this this piece of ****.

Good thing you didn't read the comments on the DA page, it did the same thing for me. I just really really hope this doesn't happens at all in DA3.

[GSSAGE7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I always knew this would ****** me off, but I am actually surprised at how much this pisses me off. I want the thread to move to the next page so I don't have to this this piece of ****.

If it makes you feel better, they both look pissed.
More proof for my intrepretation of the picture.