16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirfan]

 @Brock: Ugh, that quote from Muzyka, does he really believe that? Does he really think BioWare is doing a good job doing those things? Do I even want to know?

And on Brent, yeah, I think Knowles may have had a bit "clearer" vision, at least personally, about the direction of DA on many fronts, I think he even made a comment somewhere stating that he was a little surprised the Warden wasn't the protagonist of DA2.
on

GoT: Hmm, I actually never did think Dany & the Dragons like that, there is a lot going on that might be affected by the dragons that is mentioned in the series, alongside with the other supernatural elements, but they do feel rather "natural" plot-elements within the context of the series.

And I think I made a few posts about how I was quite annoyed by the very same thing, didn't remember the Laidlaw-quote though, did he really say that?

And on Morri-related, somewhat, This song always reminds me of Morri-romance for some reason.

[Tirfan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea I can agree with that assement. The experience I had with both is very different. Origins engrossed me emotionally, but TW2 did so on a more intellectual level (which is ultimately what I prefer). The writing of TW2 makes all Bioware games I played look very...I don't know, simplistic in comparision. 

Bah, missed this, TW2:s writing really does make the writing in all BW-games seem somehow simplistic, and I can think of a few reasons at least, like how BW seems to be fundamentally opposed to showing more than one or 2 sides of a faction, how every choice seems to revolve around "Kill or let live", how many, many times factions or characters don't really get much screentime, how choices in general are handled in BW-games (play through exactly the same sequence, THEN you are introduced to the factions/characters, small info-dump, make a choice, and then it is never spoken of again.)

Exactly. I have played a little of DX, but I already care about Jensen more than I ever did with Hawke.I care about what seemingly happened with his lover, than I did with the death of Leandra, I am not even exagerrating. The awkward middle of Hawke and Shepard is not working for me, I find myself utterly oblivious to them and I can't rp them the way I want, which adds to the frustration.

Yeah, pretty much the exact same here. Frustration is probably the best word for describing the experience with Shepard/Hawke, There is even no emotional connection to the characters, they just end being pretty complete voids that I have no idea of who they are.

Brockololly wrote...
Funny how Muzyka brings up "non linear
storytelling" and unique content for different choices/consequences,
seeing as those were the big phrases TW2 hammered on in their marketing
and yet recent BioWare games especially have done a pretty mediocre job
at best in providing unique consequences to player actions.


But
you should really give Baldur's Gate 2 a try before giving up on
BioWare. Their best game easily and puts their recent efforts to shame.

Mediocre is a nice way of putting it.
They are getting outclassed in a lot of aspects (barring VA and facial animations, things that I quite frankly do not put much importance to). The most important one for me is the writing. The Witcher removed the blindfold I had that Bioware held the monopoly on storytelling games (back home, I had difficulty accessing info). Heck, not only removed it, but slapped me across the face and showed me how what I personally want from games is not impossible to achieve at all.

And I might try it, but if it's good I doubt that they are going to go back to something similar. That just might make it more depressing.

Yeah, I have really started to wonder where the idea that BW has this monopoly on game-storytelling or that they are the "best of the best" in videogame-stories is coming from.  Of course, back in time stories in videogames weren't really good and there weren't that many companies that didn't regard story in a videogame as a completely optional thing, they did make a bit of an reputation, but in recent years it has become really apparent that the BW writing really doesn't set the bar very high.

Not to mention storytelling in Bioware-games, because really, even that has never been very good, they have never really tried to do something even a bit out of ordinary nor have they tried to tap into the potential videogames have as a medium of storytelling, using gameplay, branching, C&C effectively as a tool to tell very compelling stories.

In the end, really, the strength of BW-writing teams seem to be in the characters, and I would outright claim that even in their writing the standards are going downwards. Perhaps this idea is enforced by the fact that I just loaned Gaiders DA-books and read them... And seriously, what can I say about those books? Well, apparently Gaider can't write action well, nor handle a coherent narrative without unnecessary padding and his descriptions are outright horrible. The only thing that he apparently can do, is write from decent  to good characters.

But yea, I would recommend BG2 too, it is an good game really, the AD&D ruleset may be a bit annoying to say the least, but still.

[DancesWithScions]

@Tirfan, KoP, Brock- I may agree with you on some parts, such as the superior quality of TW2 / DX:HR...but dammit you are totally depressing with your logic and claims..what happened to the wishful Morri talk? I guess we are all tired.. You might make some sense with your last posts, and that realization saddens me greatly..could you post a new drawing please??? (sigh)..

[Fallstar]

DuskWarden wrote...

Hmmm...Never played Deus Ex before, it sounds good. Reckon I'll pick it up when my PC gets fixed.
I also really want to see how Morrigan looks in the new engine, since she was basically confirmed to be in DA:3/DA:2 expansion/dlc at PAX. Leliana looked alright, so its definitely possible for her to look good, but then I may be psychologically scarred from Zevran's new face.

Also, I hope they keep her clothes pretty much the same. She wouldn't be Morrigan without that outfit.

And here ends a ma-hoo-sive DX playing session. I am so glad I read your post Brock and picked that game game up. Absolutely fantastic. The dialogue system was basically a lesson to Bioware in how dialogue in an rpg with a voiced protagonist should be done. Now for a give me deus ex/pacifist playthrough .

Also I don't like the wording in Bioware's statement, that they'll "show us what happened" to the OGB, rather than show us what happens. Maybe I'm over analyzing, but the use of the past tense there suggests that Bioware have finished with the OGB already and are simply going to show us how they write it out. I don't know. It didn't read like the OGB is going to have any kind of influence, which would be a damned shame, considering the story potential there.

[MKDAWUSS]

DuskWarden wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Hmmm...Never played Deus Ex before, it sounds good. Reckon I'll pick it up when my PC gets fixed.
I also really want to see how Morrigan looks in the new engine, since she was basically confirmed to be in DA:3/DA:2 expansion/dlc at PAX. Leliana looked alright, so its definitely possible for her to look good, but then I may be psychologically scarred from Zevran's new face.

Also, I hope they keep her clothes pretty much the same. She wouldn't be Morrigan without that outfit.

And here ends a ma-hoo-sive DX playing session. I am so glad I read your post Brock and picked that game game up. Absolutely fantastic. The dialogue system was basically a lesson to Bioware in how dialogue in an rpg with a voiced protagonist should be done. Now for a give me deus ex/pacifist playthrough .

Also I don't like the wording in Bioware's statement, that they'll "show us what happened" to the OGB, rather than show us what happens. Maybe I'm over analyzing, but the use of the past tense there suggests that Bioware have finished with the OGB already and are simply going to show us how they write it out. I don't know. It didn't read like the OGB is going to have any kind of influence, which would be a damned shame, considering the story potential there.

I wouldn't be surprised if all it ends up being boiled down to is a few dialog changes based on your save import, like what most save imports have done up to this point...

[Jarlof Seoul]

[/quote]

I wouldn't be surprised if all it ends up being boiled down to is a few dialog changes based on your save import, like what most save imports have done up to this point...

[/quote]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!  

[Jarlof Seoul]

Well, I cheered up seeing the DA2 website headline about Morrigan as a fan favorite in costume play. DW gave Morri a little face time to DA2 fans. that's a good indicator of things to come!

A few optimists remain among the hardcore DA Morri lovers.

[revan11exile]

I wanted to ask you guys something did you romance Morrigan with a Dwarf,Elf or Human and why?For me i first chose was an Human Mage and why i did it was because well Mages get no love and the added bonus was the OGB being a Mage as well.

[MKDAWUSS]

revan11exile wrote...

I wanted to ask you guys something did you romance Morrigan with a Dwarf,Elf or Human and why?For me i first chose was an Human Mage and why i did it was because well Mages get no love and the added bonus was the OGB being a Mage as well.

Human Noble. My first character, and all my following characters ended up being the same.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Human Noble.

I think the OGB will be a mage regardless. Morrigan mentions training him.

[Lord_Anthonior]

It has been a while since I check the thread but I saw this picture and thought that it reallly should be shared here: 


By: lightpriestess

I miss Morrigan....

[Tirfan]

@li009: Sorry :<

@revan11exile: I can't remember my first characters, a Dalish Rogue, RP-reason for romancing Morrigan anymore, but that playthrough was the one where I really started to appreciate her as a character, When she started to refuse sex I truly started to realize the depth of her as a character and the depth that her character-development had. After that I was sold and just had to romance Morrigan on every time I played the game.

Okay, it might be bit weird to say, but yeah, I really loved when she refused to have sex. I thought it was one of the most fantastic moments in the game on a emotional level.

@Lord_Anthonio: That is really nice.

[Jarlof Seoul]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

It has been a while since I check the thread but I saw this picture and thought that it reallly should be shared here: 


By: lightpriestess

I miss Morrigan....

got my tongue hanging out

[Jarlof Seoul]

Isn't it interesting that Dragon Age: The Revelation revealed that Morrigan developed an altruistic secondary motive to help her more than friend Warden to live by offering the dark ritual?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I still think it's secondary, and she has a more important objective.

[Brockololly]

revan11exile wrote...

I wanted to ask you guys something did you romance Morrigan with a Dwarf,Elf or Human and why?For me i first chose was an Human Mage and why i did it was because well Mages get no love and the added bonus was the OGB being a Mage as well.

My canon Warden is a dual wielding warrior Cousland. While my other main PC is a human mage. I like to think that way my Cousland's version of the OGB can be some badass arcane warrior type, while my Amell's OGB can be some super mage.

[revan11exile]

So in the end results do you guys think it well matter if the father is an Dwarf,Human or Elf and if the child is an Half Dwarf Half Human will the OGB be an Mage as well?

[Jarlof Seoul]

I'm thinking mage with a melee fighting side a la Mage Hawke. Mage Hawke is an evolution from Forgotten Realms mages who where more Merlin/Gandalfesque.

OGB would be presumably unique in his powers like Fenris.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Don't compare the OGB with Hawke...

[Funkjoker]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's probably what we will get yes, I do not expect anything major or even good. What I am hoping for is minimal damage.

My concern right now is directed at the very fundamentals of the story's direction. I expected DA to move towards low fantasy gradually, but it seems to be headed in the opposite direction.

I cling to my Warden. Well, it's my warden. Without a proper ending, we'll get him back as (what a shame) NPC.
Warden doing the US: Warden can be imported into Awakening. What is that? Why wasn't it possible to import the save, yet you have to play as the Orlesian Warden for the sake of continuity?
Not to mention all the import bugs: Every new DAgame with an import tool will be buggy, because BioWare (as of now) refuses to fix import/export issues at the source: DAO/DAA.
I understand that not everyone wants to play as the Warden (again). However, there's the option to play as an alternative character. What they're doing to the Warden remains to be seen, however, while it may not be as pathetic as what they did to Revan, it is, as you say, Phoenix, something that I'll expect not to be good.
The thing is, one can make a new character once the old one's over. That'll happen to the MEseries, probably Witcher, etc. However, the Warden doesn't have a proper ending (when he didn't do the US and eventually made some OGB). This is not good, especially when Hawke's a character I won't miss for a second. I'd miss the Warden, I'd miss Geralt, and I'll probably miss the main char of the Deus Ex series, a series I'll have to tackle on in the next months thanks to your good recommendations.

Morrigan is used as cliffhanger. There is great potential to it. However, the Warden is directly linked to Morrigan (in most cases: OGB), so I'd be utterly disappointed if I (as Warden) won't be the one ending the story with her - any new main character doesn't have the right to do it, no matter how much you bend the story to "just let it fit".

The very fundamentals of the story's new direction is something not only the old crowd doesn't like, but also the players with higher standards for very good games: like Phoenix, Tirfan and Brockololly. I'm joining the group if you don't mind ^^.

I quoted you, Phoenix, because this quote is among all the others absolutely right and this ultimately leads to:

Either the DAseries dies with DA3 or it gets redemption... however, seeing what's been said in the interviews, I highly doubt it'll live up to - what you said, Phoenix - anything major or good (I use your phrase generally now, but also especially linked to the Warden-Witch-OGB-story.)

Tirfan wrote...

^ Yeah.. but well, to be honest, it could have kinda worked, the big bad blight was done with and there was nothing but petty politics to center the storyline about at the end of DA:O, with some nice questions about supernatural elements of Thedas that could have been answered at the same time without the focus being on them.

But noo, there just needs to be a completely ridiculous war, filled with extremely improbable and stupid plot-devices, one dimensional villains, Morrigan with standard-edition sequel boobjob and the OGB who, it turns out, is EVIL, just because.
Gods, really, I don't even know anymore why I have even that small glimmer of hope that there would ever be even a decent DA-game ever again. Especially as it was more or less confirmed that the new artstyle will stay. Can I say, it is so bloody ugly and ridiculous with all the spikes and feathers and feeding troughs that I couldn't take any story told very seriously when the presentation is so horrible. The artstyle itself is one thing I think that can only work in the "high fantasy"-thing, just give up any remnants of whatever realism that there ever was, even if there wasn't much to begin with, what with the shoulderpads of doom.

But then, I guess I will have to see what they come up with about Morri/warden/OGB-thing and hope they don't completely ruin that, and if(when) they do, at least I can give up any hope and just pretend Dragon Age ended with Witch Hunt and be bitter that it wasn't the expansion it should have been.

QFT and I couldn't have expressed it better.

Well, I'd have quoted the three of you far more often with "QFT", but I'll just leave it as that to not make it super-lengthy.

revan11exile wrote...

So in the end results do you guys think it well matter if the father is an Dwarf,Human or Elf and if the child is an Half Dwarf Half Human will the OGB be an Mage as well?

Most OGB's would probably be offspring of humans. I doubt that there'll be any effort to change the OGB's physical appearance. One way to do it: Morrigan's human genes are stronger then those of the other races, which makes him a human anyway ^.^

Edit: Oh, and Brockololly, very good posts on the previous page!!

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 16 septembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[Brockololly]

Its been a while, so a mini rant, prefaced by some Morrigan:

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
I cling to my Warden. Well, it's my warden. Without a proper ending, we'll get him back as (what a shame) NPC.
Warden doing the US: Warden can be imported into Awakening. What is that? Why wasn't it possible to import the save, yet you have to play as the Orlesian Warden for the sake of continuity?

Awakening's disregard for continuity really was the first big warning sign that the devs aren't really caring much about story or character continuity. Making players who did the US be forced to play as the Orlesian would have made the US/DR choice that much more meaningful and serious. It would have emphasized death being final in the DA universe.

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
Not to mention all the import bugs: Every new DAgame with an import tool will be buggy, because BioWare (as of now) refuses to fix import/export issues at the source: DAO/DAA.

I almost wonder if its not an issue with the consoles and Xbox Live at this point. Since I know patches can only be a certain size (which is why they couldn't fix some of the incorrect armor models in Awakening, for instance) but I'm pretty sure under Xbox Live's rules, you can only patch a game so many times before any additional downloadable stuff has to be paid content.

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
That'll happen to the MEseries, probably Witcher, etc. However, the Warden doesn't have a proper ending (when he didn't do the US and eventually made some OGB). This is not good, especially when Hawke's a character I won't miss for a second. I'd miss the Warden, I'd miss Geralt, and I'll probably miss the main char of the Deus Ex series, a series I'll have to tackle on in the next months thanks to your good recommendations.

I think thats a big problem with the DA series going forward- is how (unless you went the US route) fail to provide closure to PC's. Whereas with something like Baldur's Gate, you felt closure with the Bhaalspawn when it was over. Or hell, even stuff like Gears of War 3 seems to offer pretty good closure on all those characters.

The little cliffhanger endings and unresolved storylines that start up at the end of games need to stop. Especially when it seems BioWare has either no clue where they're going with them or are going to take years on end to follow them up. By that point, they've wasted any built up anticipation people might have had.

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
Morrigan is used as cliffhanger. There is great potential to it. However, the Warden is directly linked to Morrigan (in most cases: OGB), so I'd be utterly disappointed if I (as Warden) won't be the one ending the story with her - any new main character doesn't have the right to do it, no matter how much you bend the story to "just let it fit".

I agree, and I think the sense of player agency in creating the OGB in Origins is why thats such a potentially powerful storyline. Its not the PC destroying or killing off something but creating something. But so much of the feeling of agency and emotional engagement with that storyline and Morrigan's character development is tied to the character of everyone's unique Warden. So to just have that storyline explored with some new PC will more than likely suck any of the emotional engagement out of the thing and turn it into a more academic exercise.

I just have the feeling that should BioWare ever tell what happened with Morirgan and the OGB it will be just that: they'll be telling and not showing. Which is one of BioWare's biggest issues as storytellers right now, that they tell about things but you don't see them first hand. So based on your Warden's choices, I'd much rather be able to see those consequences to the Warden's actions first hand, rather than having Morrigan tell about them past tense or having to see them from the POV of some new PC who is not emotionally engaged on a personal level with Morrigan or the OGB.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Don't compare the OGB with Hawke...

Ugh...sadly, I'm thinking more and more that Morrigan will find her way into some DA2 DLC at some point or another. And I really don't want any Morrigan in DA2 unless she's there to kill Hawke and burn Kirkwall to the ground. Cause lord knows how abominable she'll look in DA2's monstrosity of a facemorph system.


Anyway, even now BioWare (or Laidlaw on his twitter in particular) is still saying how Morrigan's story isn't over. But I'm sorry, that ship has sailed. Most built up anticipation for that plot line has evaporated after botching things in Witch Hunt and DA2. Morrigan's story is interesting to me due to the mystery in it and her evolving relationship with the Warden and that character development. But its already 2 strikes against it when you take the Warden out of the picture and BioWare has forgotten how to provide satisfying endings to their stories. SO they're just trying to hype up and build this anticipation for the rest of Morrigan's story, but by the time it comes to fruition, I really question how many people will give a **** and even then, they'll have waited so damn long to do anything with it that there is no way it will be able to meet people's expectations.

Bleh. I replayed some BG2 and Throne of Bhaal the past month or so (albeit cheating through some of the combat) and I cannot believe that the BioWare that made those games are the same ones that made DA2. Its just night and day in terms of storytelling and dialogue. That BioWare just doesn't exist anymore sadly.

Anyway, have some Morrigan cosplay:

[KnightofPhoenix]

I honestly no longer care that much about the future of Morrigan and the OGB, for several reasons some of which you mentioned.

And the part of me that still cares also questions heavily Bioware's ability to make it good or even decent should they decide to deal with it.

So why bother expecting and hoping. Right now, I am more interested in meeting Yennefer in TW3 and seeing if a love triangle happens.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2011 - 06:41 .

[bl00dsh0t]

**** at this point I even dread any kind of mention of Morrigan and/or the warden in any future installment of DA... I just keep getting flashbacks to the awakening and whichhunt continuity bugs, or how the only dao + awakening save I have kept for continuity's sake still wont trigger one of the quests in the 3rd act of da2 despite said individual being alive...

Nothing good can come for us, may the expectations be lowered so far we expect Morrigan to be voiced by someone else than the allmighty Claudia Black, the ogb being the next big evil and 50% at least of our choices being ignored, butchered or flat out negated by plot armor....gah xD

The more time I spend thinking about it the less I give a crap, just feels like I spent soooo damn much time creating these "perfect" saves to create a state of the world that I wanted to have carried over but pretty much 80% of those are never to be mentioned again and thus literally 100's of hours were basically wasted. And the saddest thing is Ill be there preordering DA3 no matter what anyway s xD

Sigh giving a **** seems like the wrong approach when it comes to dragon age characters, may the ripoff of off lord of the rings live long and prosper...or sumthing sumthing ;D

I guess our one hope is that they make a mass effect style interactive comic for us who played the original game and make sure that the choices we make in it are actually substantially taken care of in the follow up so we at least know that the few choices we make in it actually matter to some degree. Placing trust in their ability to read their messy saves is trust severely misplaced....

Ahh well ill go to sleep and rage about it till i slumber, remembering the good parts of the dragon age universe where stuff still made sense and there was hope for continuity and promptly forgetting how much better other rpg's handle nods to the events of the prequells, continuity, mechanics and what not else...

[Jarlof Seoul]

"Tis a dark time in the Morrigan Discussion group. At least I had my WH sunset ending...