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[Brockololly]

Since its October and almost Halloween, here are some scary Morrigan pictures! Mind you, this is Morrigan as she looks in DA2 (unless BioWare hopefully totally redid her face from what was in the files.)

The Horror....the horror....so much for Morrigan's sly grin. Instead we get this monstrosity. Its just such a trainwreck you can't look away.



I swear this has to be some troll face, I mean, my god:

Modifié par Brockololly, 14 octobre 2011 - 05:39 .

[Ghidorah14]

EW.

Wheres that from??

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 14 octobre 2011 - 05:44 .

[Brockololly]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

EW.

Wheres that from??

The screenshots are from DA2- its technically female Hawke but the face is the Morrigan face morph a modder found in the DA2 files for Morrigan. Its not clear if its in the files for some future DLC or if its just something they maybe were working on but (hopefully) abandoned.

[TobiTobsen]

Well... seems like she had one hell of a snack attack while being pregnant with the OGB

After seeing that I'm really glad that she wasn't present in DA2.

[MKDAWUSS]

Who the heck is that woman on the top post?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'd be in shock, but I am finding it hard to do anything other than that at the moment

[Ghidorah14]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Well... seems like she had one hell of a snack attack while being pregnant with the OGB

After seeing that I'm really glad that she wasn't present in DA2.

Ho boy, you aint kiddin'.

And I thought Alistair got a bad makeover...

[tklivory]

Good god, those are terrible!  I don't....  What...

[MKDAWUSS]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Well... seems like she had one hell of a snack attack while being pregnant with the OGB

After seeing that I'm really glad that she wasn't present in DA2.

Ho boy, you aint kiddin'.

And I thought Alistair got a bad makeover...

At least I won't be seeing my Warden's face in DA2.

But in all honesty, those pics look like Morrigan really let herself go over the years. Maybe it can be chalked up to Varric's visualizations?

[Brockololly]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Well... seems like she had one hell of a snack attack while being pregnant with the OGB

After seeing that I'm really glad that she wasn't present in DA2.

If you've played or seen Mark of the Assassin, Isolde has a tiny cameo, and her face is likewise mangled, having it look like she had a Michael Jackson quality nosejob, stuffed her face with lard since she's got the same bloated jaw/cheeks everyone else has and she's got the terrible pipe cleaner angry eyebrows everyone else has too.

Example:
Origins Isolde:



DA2 Isolde (and Teagan)



I know its the screwed up lighting at play too, but just ugh.

Its one thing if the graphics had significantly improved on a technical level, and thats what caused them to change the faces but they didn't. They just look really terrible now- even most of the faces created just for DA2.

Just...ugh. I mean, whats the point in cameos when they're clearly trying to make the characters look the same but they very clearly don't look the same just in terms of basic facial structure and facial features? Cameos should be one way to reinforce some sense of continuity and a sense of the larger world out there. But when people look fundamentally different yet they were clearly tryingto make them look the same, I think you have to question your choice in making the new face morph system such that it can't recreate these old characters or otherwise bring them over easily..

Especially when you look at other games on the market and considering how much BioWare puts into emphasizing their characters as the focal point of their games and yet they technically look like rubbish.  Just take something like Rage where you've got fantastic and expressive characters like this:


^this is actually Claudia Black's character in Rage

Or just other Claudia Black characters like Sam in GoW or Chloe in Uncharted- they both look so much better on a a technical level than anything BioWare does:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea Isolde in DA2 looks horrible. As does Teagan.

[Brockololly]

MKDAWUSS wrote...
At least I won't be seeing my Warden's face in DA2.

But in all honesty, those pics look like Morrigan really let herself go over the years. Maybe it can be chalked up to Varric's visualizations?

Thats what everyone says about all of the DAO cameos- "Oh, Alistair really let himself go" or "Isolde really let herself go." Thats my issue with the new facemorphs is that even if they wanted to have a post pregnancy fat Morrigan or have Alistair look like he's been eating a trough of nacho cheese for years, there are too many other problems with the structure of the new face morphs, like wrong proportions of their features or wrong shape noses or eyes or eyebrows, such that that doesn't hold up.

Its a function that the new face morph system doesn't allow for creating very good looking faces since it seems extremely limited with the bloated jaws, pipe cleaner, angry Uncle Leo style Seinfeld eyebrows, the buggy eyes, the Botoxed skin and the creepy nubby teeth. Its not a marked improvement on a technical level over Origins but rather a step back IMO.

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 octobre 2011 - 03:02 .

[Alex Kershaw]

What has been seen cannot be unseen...

[Alex Kershaw]

Brockololly wrote...
snip

I disagree with you here... I think Bioware's characters look considerably better than the vast majority of games. Look at the character models in Oblivion/Fallout 3/Witcher 1 - nowhere near as impressive as the models in DAO, ME1 and ME2. It's only DA2 that messed it up - the game was a total mess from top to bottom so terrible looking characters is a given. I don't think Bioware in general have bad looking characters though. Morrigan looks way better than that Rage character you posted.

[Funkjoker]

Alex Kershaw wrote...
I think Bioware's characters look considerably better than the vast majority of games. Look at the character models in Oblivion/Fallout 3/Witcher 1 - nowhere near as impressive as the models in DAO, ME1 and ME2. It's only DA2 that messed it up - the game was a total mess from top to bottom so terrible looking characters is a given. I don't think Bioware in general have bad looking characters though. Morrigan looks way better than that Rage character you posted.

The first three games you mention -- they were released at least 2 years before DAO or ME2. Furthermore, ME(2) uses the Unreal Engine - which is known to be one of the best (visually) engines. Witcher 1 used the old engine which was already used in NWN1 and Oblivion/Fallout are also quite dated compared to DAO/ME. I suggest looking at release dates, at the engines used and then make some "conclusions".

I assume that DA2 uses the same engine as DAO, however the colorful changes in almost every aspect were bad.
I wouldn't have a problem to import my Warden into DA3 by recreating him bc of engine limitations. That way, it'd be probably curious for some players, however we avoid getting some ... curious imported faces as shown above ^^

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 15 octobre 2011 - 03:40 .

[Jarlof Seoul]

Wow. I am glad Morrigan has not showed up with that DA2 face morph. Nowhere near the perfect Morrigan face from DAO and WH. In fact, its ugly.

[Brockololly]

Alex Kershaw wrote...
I disagree with you here... I think Bioware's characters look considerably better than the vast majority of games. Look at the character models in Oblivion/Fallout 3/Witcher 1 - nowhere near as impressive as the models in DAO, ME1 and ME2. It's only DA2 that messed it up - the game was a total mess from top to bottom so terrible looking characters is a given. I don't think Bioware in general have bad looking characters though. Morrigan looks way better than that Rage character you posted.

Well, I'd have to point out that with Oblivion/FO3 they're sharing the same engine, which doesn't do a good job with characters, true enough. Its also pretty old with Oblivion coming out in early 2006 and even Fallout 3 being about 3 years old. But even with those games, the characters aren't the focus like they are in BioWare games- with Bethesda its all about the environments.

And with TW1, its built on a modified version of BioWare's old engine from NWN, which BioWare used as the basis for the DA engine.

With something like Rage, though, I think they do a great job with the faces on a technical level, especially when you see it in motion. They have a certain stylized look to them, but in motion the expressions are pretty fluid and convincing.

ME1 and ME2 look decent cause they're using the Unreal engine.

But then you look at what Bethesda is doing from Oblivion to Skyrim- they know people complained about the ugly characters and so you're seeing MUCH better looking characters on a technical level while still retaining their unique visuals from an art POV:




I just think its the totality of the character- the animations and the technical side of things in their visuals. I think the Origins characters looked decent overall as they seemed to do a good job at providing subtle emotions in their faces as opposed to DA2, which ends up with some exaggerated looks which only exacerbate the odd way the faces of characters look on a technical level. Its DA2 I have the issue with, not as much Origins.

Case in point, Morrigan from Origins with a devious smirk versus...well, yeah, which one is not like the other?

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 octobre 2011 - 05:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea I'd much rather have this



One doesn't need exaggerated facial expressions to convey anything.

[tklivory]

Will to play DA2... fading...

It's kind of sad when I feel like before I play that game I want to raid Nexus for face morphs for Origins cameos so that they'll look better than the stock appearance in the game...

And I totally agree with Brockololly about what the problem is: it's definitely not a superficial issue, its at a completely different level.  When I started tinkering with the toolset, I fooled around with making a new morph preset race by moving bone markers and muscle maps while experimenting (and came up with some pretty hilarious results) but it made me appreciate the defaults even more (well, except some of the teeth.  Gah! Gilmore!  Brrrrr...)

The problem I keep seeing with the DA2 is more in the said underlying bone structure and muscle maps, and then how the animations are overlaid onto them.  And the results are definitely not pretty.  I admit to having morphed the bejarnus out of many NPCs in DA:O (though I have made only veeeery slight modifications to Morrigan - that bottom lip was just a wee bit too pouty for me), but the underlying mechanics of the animation and bone/muscle maps allowed  me to develop characters I could feel comforatble watching for hours on end.

[Ghidorah14]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I'd much rather have this



One doesn't need exaggerated facial expressions to convey anything.

I'm glad you brought that up, actually.

Thats is, I think, one of the major problems with DA2's new style.

In Origins, characters would have an array of facial expressions, but they felt real. They changed and moved depnding on what the character felt, NOT what the situation wanted the character to feel. The eybrows, the mouth, the cheeks, they all seemed to be able to operate indepedantly of each other, but worked together to form expressions.

In DA2, everything felt like templates.  It was like watching Thomas the tank engine.

"Oh, this charcter is making a joke. Put on the joking face."

"Oh, this character is sad. Put on the sad face."

"Oh, this character is mad. Put on the mad face"

Etc, etc.

Its even worse when you have characters like Aveline who have stoic faces, who then use a different face template, but once they stop talking, the template quickly reverts back to its default state! Its weird and jarring.

Aveline: I knew I could count on you! -

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 15 octobre 2011 - 07:18 .

[tklivory]

Of course, I also think that our reaction is exacerbated because we got soooo used to the faces as they appeared in DA:O and now suddenly POOF! here they are in a completely different art style and motion map!

I wonder: would we have such strong reactions to the art style of DA2 if they didn't change the characters we know and love so much?  If, for example, there were NO DA:O characters in DA2, we would likely be discussing the changes on a more technical level than "OMG burn it with fire!" as we sometimes tend to now.

@Brock: totally agree with your above statement.  It felt like watching a muppet rather than a character.

Man, wish I had me some photoshop skillz... I would love a photomanip of my above statement...

[Wulfram]

If you use a mod to unlock the default lady hawke and use that as your base for modification, you can avoid the puffy face issue and have a much less awful looking Morrigan in DA2.



Far from perfect, but not so horrible as the one at the top and hopefully Bioware are better than me.

[Ghidorah14]

OMG that looks so much better.

Funny how fans seem to be better at recreating these characters than the game designers themselves. XD

[TobiTobsen]

Morrigan, together with Alistair and Oghren, were the only characters in DAO that I aways liked the way BioWare made them. All the others got reworked thanks to the awesome Dragon Age Redesigned lore version from the Nexus site.

It would be a freaking shame if Morrigan suffered from the same fate as the other cameos. In my opinion the only one who was acceptable was Leliana. All the others were a disgrace to the original character design.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 15 octobre 2011 - 09:08 .

[ximena]

I'm not sure if everyone's up to speed, but apparently there's going to be a Dragon Age Comic book feat. Alistair, Isabela and Varric.

Now I found this interesting tidbit. (A list of the notable announcement BioWare made in NYCC. Can be seen here)



To point out what I want to point out:



So yeah. This can be Flemeth or Morrigan or perhaps some other Witch of the Wilds we don't know yet. But then in the first article I linked to, it said:

"The 'Dragon Age' miniseries follows Alistair of 'Dragon Age: Origins' and Isabela and Varric of 'Dragon Age II,' Gaider told CBR. "The three of them have traveled to Antiva, an exotic land of assassins, to chase a secret from Alistair's past that will draw all three of them into danger -- and also reveal a surprising truth about the nature of dragons in Thedas.

"It follows a few things that fans of 'Dragon Age' have probably been wondering about for some time, and a few plot threads that we haven't been able to pick up elsewhere," Gaider continued. "I'm writing it, and as the Lead Writer on both of the 'Dragon Age' games I can say pretty confidently that it fits seamlessly into the overall narrative. These are characters the fans love, and there's some lore here that they won't find anywhere else. It should be a treat."

Now I know the secret can be about Alistair's parents or whatever. But I can't help thinking the OGB is that secret. I don't know if it's just me but one of the biggest plot threads fans always wonder about is the Morrigan and OGB storyline.



P.S. Damn you, Brock. What is that monstrosity?! Haha.