16183 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

She bruised the precious ego of the gamers or annoyed them! That's reason enough to stab her! At least if we take the BSN as a norm.

Leliana talks to much about the chantry? Defile the Ashes and behead her!
Wynne annoys you with her motherly words of advice? Defile the ashes and murder her!
Morrigan left you warden for her own plans at the end of DAO? Stab her at the End of Witch Hunt!
Ashley doesn't approve of Aliens hanging around the core systems of the Normandy? Nuke her on Virmire!
Kaidan talks about his headache again? Nuke him!
The VS isn't believing Shep on Horizion? Demand the option to airlock them asap in ME3!

There is a reason somebod called this the BioWare Sociopathy Network once

[Retrogue]

Heh. Well, the warden can kill Brother Genetivi and the shady merchant in Lothering for no good reasons (other than that the murderknife is amusing), so why not let the warden attempt to kill Morrigan for a stupid reason? During my first play-through, I wanted my warden to kill Leliana just for being really irritating though she ended up growing on me.

Modifié par Retrogue, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

csfteeeer wrote...
Still though, i don't understand why the stab option was there.... it literally came out of nowhere.

I understand it. And once, I played devil's advocate and defended the possible reasoning behind stabbing her.

[csfteeeer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...
Still though, i don't understand why the stab option was there.... it literally came out of nowhere.

I understand it. And once, I played devil's advocate and defended the possible reasoning behind stabbing her.

Really?

And what is that Reasoning?

The closes thing to an answer i've got is the possibility of the warden feeling Betrayed by her, but then again, that was basically the deal, you either:

1)Do it, and then she Leaves.
2)Don't do, and you can go die.

She Explained Everything to you, which, in my mind, makes it impossible to look like a Betrayal.

From a Developer standard point, i can understand the fact that perhaps they wanted to give the player options, but in context of the Writing, there is absolutely nothing to gain out of it, from the way i see it.

Seriously, is a question that i've asked myself for Months(Well, not the HOLE time, but here and there obviously)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Simply put, that she is too dangerous to be kept alive. It can be said that she constantly shows herself to be ethically questionable. She has plans to have a God child (whether you agree to it or not does not change the fact that she was interested in such a thing), which can be seen as very dangerous and potentially catastrophic. And she claims to be the harbinger of a change that she knows people will fight, aka people will die, and she refuses to explain what that change entails.

Everything considered, I find it perfectly valid for a warden to not trust her at all and think that she is a threat.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:54 .

[csfteeeer]

hmmm...

never really looked at it that way.

and you're right.

and now i think about it, i hope the writers looked at it that way rather than just putting it there for no reason. lol.

and if they did, well it's good for them to think of everything, although they VASTLY over estimate the players,  cause i BET that not even HALF of the DAO:WH PLayers had this reasoning.

And i'm also willing to bet that the people who killed, were either, doing to see what happens, or were like "Oh yes! i can kill this ****!".

on a more serious note, i guess it depends on how one sees it, but i never saw her as a treat (rather naive, i know, but that's me, a ridiculously nice guy), because one of the things that makes her interesting for me is that she always seems to be thinking something different that she let's to believe, which is why i was never conviced that she would be dangerous to my warden.

what she wanted with the OGB is a question that i always ask myself.
i have never conformed myself with just being like "She wanted to destroy the world obviously, she needs to die".

but from a warden's perspective(one that may or may not trust), it's perfectly valid.

[Zaxarus]

@KnightofPhoenix
This "Morrigan is too dangerous" thing i also see as a reasoning to kill her, BUT i don't think the writers thought about that. There is really no line in the whole DLC or in the per-Dark-Ritual-Dialogue about this theme. It's only about "will the child be a darkspawn" and similar moral questions. In my opinion this kill dialogue option is simply not very carefully considered.

btw: Would killing really be a reasonable action? The child is not there. What will happen with the child? With an old god in it, surely other persons will "sense" it. Wouldn't it be better to let Morrigan (even a morally questionable) take care of it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

One could simply believe that without Morrigan, the child would simply die.
The reasoning is more complicated if the Warden did agree to have the child though.There would be an element of opportunism and exploitation there, wether intentional or not (use Morrigan to increase your chances of survival and then try to kill her later).

All of WH is not carefully considered at all and the choice to follow her is as messy as the choice to stab her, worse even imo. I'd go even further and say that everything after Awakening (some would say it is included) is not well thought out at all by the writers. Potentially, the entire DR is not well thought out either. Perhaps all of DA is not well thought out.

At this point, I am cynical like that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 octobre 2011 - 05:17 .

[Bleachrude]

Eh, not sure what's wrong with the DR itself...

I actually thought the reveal of the undying nature of the Archdemon and the whole soul destroy thing actually was well constructed...I mean, if you go into DA blind, the lore keeps telling of how long and terrible blights are, yet supposedly, by the time you get to Denerim and the landsmeet, you've killed probably 2 High dragons already...so I was at that pt in time myself wondering "why" grey wardens were actually needed since so far, it seemed the joining was a whole lot of negatives...

[tklivory]

@KoP - I see where you are coming from, to an extent. My immediate thought upon reading your response was to categorize the Warden's response based on their relationship with Morrigan, and I got the following results:

Orlesian Warden -- I can very much see an outsider who never traveled/interacted with Morrigan viewing Morrigan as a threat, particularly since you mainly see her as 1) a thief and 2) playing with dangerous ancient artifacts. However, I've never actually played an Orlesian Warden since I've only imported characters, so this may explain why I have never RP'ed Morrigan as a stranger and thus in need of Shanking ™

Warden that is Friendly/In Love - This is usually where I end up with Morrigan in my playthroughs, and in general, none of my characters (with one exception) were ruthless enough to kill someone they know and like/empathize with/whatever, so they've run the gamut from arguing to accompanying Morrigan, but none of them ever considered the Shanking ™. This is, i suppose, my default stance re:Morrigan in WH. (oh, and my one exception was a nasty character, killed Wynne, Leliana, Loghain (for the S&G, etc.) He let Morrigan live (her status was at Love, but he didn't love her...bastard) because he saw her as dangerous but exciting and a potential for future shenanigans.)

Warden in Hostile: only my male DN got this bad with Morrigan, and even he didn't kill her. (I forget the option I chose with him, though.) However, I remember that he chose not to kill her because he thought that she might be useful later on, not out of any moral/friend consideration.  He didn't see her as a danger to him personally, and everyone else could go sod off.

EDIT:
As for the DR, it is a mixture of good and bad writing.  It add layers and subtleties to your relationship with Morrigan (if she knew all along, why didn't she tell you, etc) and Alistair/Loghain (particularly Alistair since he is either a virgin or was/is currently in a relationship with the Warden), but I remember the first time I played DAO I saw it completely as a Deus Ex Machina moment.  Replays have made it more subtle vis a vis the moral and ethical considerations, and hopefully (HOPEFULLY, are you PAYING ATTENTION BIOWARE???) this choice will have more serious ramifications than just what you see in WH.

*strokes Morrigan plushie* don't worry, my precious, they won't completely disregard your character's importance... right?

Modifié par tklivory, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:38 .

[Funkjoker]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One could simply believe that without Morrigan, the child would simply die.
The reasoning is more complicated if the Warden did agree to have the child though.There would be an element of opportunism and exploitation there, wether intentional or not (use Morrigan to increase your chances of survival and then try to kill her later).

All of WH is not carefully considered at all and the choice to follow her is as messy as the choice to stab her, worse even imo. I'd go even further and say that everything after Awakening (some would say it is included) is not well thought out at all by the writers. Potentially, the entire DR is not well thought out either. Perhaps all of DA is not well thought out.

At this point, I am cynical like that.

This is very interesting, KoP. We'll definitely talk about this once we have more information about how BioWare borked Morri/Warden/OGB or not. I'd suggest making DA3 a new char [I'd prefer my Warden], however dealing with Morrigan _as the Warden_ in an expansion and not in a 2hour dlc. I'd approve of sth like this, especially after the long wait. And yeah, I know the chances are very thin, if not nonexistent ^^
(it's mainly for a proper closure)

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:35 .

[BlackEmperor]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Simply put, that she is too dangerous to be kept alive. It can be said that she constantly shows herself to be ethically questionable. She has plans to have a God child (whether you agree to it or not does not change the fact that she was interested in such a thing), which can be seen as very dangerous and potentially catastrophic. And she claims to be the harbinger of a change that she knows people will fight, aka people will die, and she refuses to explain what that change entails.

Everything considered, I find it perfectly valid for a warden to not trust her at all and think that she is a threat.

I definitely understand why you're given the roleplaying option to stab her. I... okay, I almost wrote "I totally shanked her on my most recent playthrough," then realized the double entendre there, then wrote it anyway, and then started thinking about some philosophical point about how closely the intimacy of love and murder are related.

What was I talking about again? 

Right! Roleplaying!

I understand why the option to kill her is there from a story point of view. What I meant was that I didn't understand why the gameplay option is there if they intended all along to keep her alive to bring her back in one way or another. Why not give the option to have a full on duel with her that she escapes from last minute using magic. I mean, it's magic. Anything could be made plausible by saying, "It's magic!" As opposed to having Bioware writers tell you later, "Nope! Sorry! You didn't shank her hard enough!"

There I go again.

[Retrogue]

BlackEmperor wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Simply put, that she is too dangerous to be kept alive. It can be said that she constantly shows herself to be ethically questionable. She has plans to have a God child (whether you agree to it or not does not change the fact that she was interested in such a thing), which can be seen as very dangerous and potentially catastrophic. And she claims to be the harbinger of a change that she knows people will fight, aka people will die, and she refuses to explain what that change entails.

Everything considered, I find it perfectly valid for a warden to not trust her at all and think that she is a threat.

I definitely understand why you're given the roleplaying option to stab her. I... okay, I almost wrote "I totally shanked her on my most recent playthrough," then realized the double entendre there, then wrote it anyway, and then started thinking about some philosophical point about how closely the intimacy of love and murder are related.

What was I talking about again? 

Right! Roleplaying!

I understand why the option to kill her is there from a story point of view. What I meant was that I didn't understand why the gameplay option is there if they intended all along to keep her alive to bring her back in one way or another. Why not give the option to have a full on duel with her that she escapes from last minute using magic. I mean, it's magic. Anything could be made plausible by saying, "It's magic!" As opposed to having Bioware writers tell you later, "Nope! Sorry! You didn't shank her hard enough!"

There I go again.

On an unrelated note, I read a book called On Killing a while back that, as part of the argument that the closer you are to a victim physically the harder it is to kill him/her, made a very similar statement about stabbing. The author compared it to sexual assault.

And to get back on topic, here's an awesome pencil drawing of Morrigan!


by Baishare

Modifié par Retrogue, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:22 .

[Funkjoker]

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

 David Gaider said that if the player didn't agree to the DR or convinced Alistair or Loghain to do it then it wasn't preformed.  

David Gaider wrote...
May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

This was from a post in the DA2GD thread "Dragon Age 3 Teasers from NYCC"

So Mr. Gaider assures us that this particular decision matters for imports, however many other choices were, apparently, not important enough. The death of the Warden or companions for example, though we don't know who to thank for this magnificent decision.

I'd like to see how all of this plays out once the story centers around precious Morrigan, maybe in some expansion of DA3? This could have been made in some good and long expansion for DAO [and not some 2h dlc]... DAA was medium at best.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 26 octobre 2011 - 10:52 .

[Brockololly]

Heh..I've been messing around with the character creator for Saint's Row the Third and tried to make Morrigan with so so results:




Didn't see any hair style like her's in the CC so I just went with it down. Its a really nice character creator and lots of fun if you're into that sort of thing.

[Jarlof Seoul]

Brockololly wrote...

Heh..I've been messing around with the character creator for Saint's Row the Third and tried to make Morrigan with so so results:




Didn't see any hair style like her's in the CC so I just went with it down. Its a really nice character creator and lots of fun if you're into that sort of thing.

not bad Brock

[Barbarossa2010]

Brockololly wrote...

Heh..I've been messing around with the character creator for Saint's Row the Third and tried to make Morrigan with so so results:




Didn't see any hair style like her's in the CC so I just went with it down. Its a really nice character creator and lots of fun if you're into that sort of thing.

Hey Brock, nice job.  She really comes out as a cross between Morrigan and Claudia B.  So, that's pretty much the best of both worlds.

Looks like I'll have to PU SR3.  Really enjoyed SR2, but it's just not a game I take too serious.  To me, it's just a huge playground of good ol' fashioned cartoon fun.  I've have spent hours in Stilwater with a good friend of mine, with heavy cheats on, wreaking havoc with vehicles, airplanes, shotguns and baseball bats.  I don't think I've ever completed a mission or earned a single achievment; but I have spent untold hours in the game. 

I think the most fun I've had is to cautiously crash my plane onto the top of the Phillip's Building and then base jump from it into a sea of angry Ultor security, cops, FBI agents and gangs.

Good times!

[Brockololly]

So, apparently BioWare is trying to prop up Morrigan recently- they posted a prompt for Morrigan haikus on the DA facebook page. And while I'm not exactly a poet, they're largely as bad as you'd think they'd be.

And BioWare posted a Halloween desktop Morrigan wallpaper:


Apparently, its by Patryk Olejniczak who made those CG ME images and I guess BioWare offered him a contract after winning their fan art competition. Nice to see they didn't butcher Morrigan's face there.

And some Morrigan art- Morrigan wearing a bit more ornate clothing:


By: Kreugan

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 novembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I never thought fire suited Morrigan. Always invested in ice and lighting for her.

[TobiTobsen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never thought fire suited Morrigan. Always invested in ice and lighting for her.

Yes sir! Ice and curses!

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never thought fire suited Morrigan. Always invested in ice and lighting for her.

Yeah, I usually give her Ice/Lightning with some Entropy and Walking Bomb. I could see her doing more of the Primal spells and thus using fire that way, I guess.

In any event, between this image and the last concept art from the panel with her in front of a burning building, seems they're trying to use fire in most of her imagery.

[tklivory]

Wait, was I the only one that thought that Horror/Virulent Walking Bomb/Waking Nighmare were the best spells for her to learn?  We *are* talking about a woman who can take the shape of a giant spider, y'know.
And any woman who can cast Death Cloud, well - that is a woman to respect (at the very least!)

EDIT: But yeah, never saw her as a pyromancer myself, TBH.

Modifié par tklivory, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I had horror, walking bomb and nightmare as well.

[hobbit of the shire]

Yeah, the necromancy and death-type spells sound like more her thing. Can't get myself to give her Creation type spells or spells that aid. She's all subtle power and torture. Current playthrough has her with the mass effect nature-type spells (lots of ice and lightning), and some evilily bits too (e.g., sleep). She's at about level 16 I think and she is a one-woman show. Not fond of shapeshifting, however, and with the buggy system always making her keep her morphed form, I prefer not to shift her.

[Joy Divison]

^^^ Agree. But someone in the party needs heal, regeneration, etc., since I always gut Wynne...

Modifié par Joy Divison, 03 novembre 2011 - 05:28 .