16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Master Shiori wrote...

Not quite sure I'd call Morrigan's actions a betrayal, especially since she saves your life with the ritual.

The way I see it your Warden and Morrigan are pretty much in a same boat by this point.
Despite how much you love one another you also have a duty that cannot be forsworn.

The Warden must, however, completely take it on faith that Morrigan has a duty that requires her to leave him behind.  She does not even give him the option to say "I will throw it all away to be with you."  She says "I never want to see you again."  The fact that this is obviously difficult for her and that she tried to warn him does mitigate the sense of betrayal and loss, but not by much.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A fascinating character Addai. Equally fascinating is how different players can make their characters, reacting to the same events.

Is it that different than what others have roleplayed?  *interested*

My Cousland thinks differently. He was now Prince consort and he cannot afford to falter. Morrigan did what she had to do, and so was he. He was devastated and he still loves her, but he wasn't going to let this stop him from achieving his ambitions and his duty towards Ferelden (more so than his duty towards the Wardens). Even in her absence, he would have done what would have impressed Morrigan, which is being strong. Or so he thinks. 

Plus, he has hopes that he will see her again. Wishful thinking perhaps, but it keeps him from going depressed and failing to do what he is supposed to as Prince.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 avril 2010 - 06:53 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
My Cousland thinks different. He was now Prince consort and he cannot afford to falter.

Ah, this probably makes a difference.

I don't think my Cousland will literally fall apart, either.  Not anytime soon, anyway.  It's more a case of how Maric is described in The Calling.  Outwardly he does (mostly) what is expected and needful, inwardly he's numb, a little resentful, and very lonely.

Plus, he has hopes that he will see her again. Wishful thinking perhaps, but it keeps him from going depressed and failing to do what he is supposed to as Prince.  

I think the question is- does she want to see him again?  Maybe I'll feel differently after seeing the epilogue.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 avril 2010 - 06:55 .

[sleepingbelow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My Cousland thinks different. He was now Prince consort and he cannot afford to falter. Morrigan did what she had to do, and so was he. He was devstated and he still loves her, but he wasn't going to let this stop him from achieving his ambitions and his duty towards Ferelden (more so than his duty towards the Wardens). Even in her absence, he would have done what would have impressed Morrigan, which is being strong.. Or so he thinks. 

Plus, he has hopes that he will see her again. Wishful thinking perhaps, but it keeps him from going depressed and failing to do what he is supposed to as Prince.  

My Amell was pretty close to that, with more emphasis on the Wardens then Fereldan.  Which I guess that is a given since a Cousland Warden has a dual calling and an identity and a history that is more worth acknowledging.  They can feel like they're a part of something greater besides just the Grey Wardens.  If you're a mage, seriously, screw a mage tower.

Even though Uldred was an evil abomination, there is one thing he said.  ""A mage is but the larval form of something greater!"

Yeah!  A kick ass Grey Warden.  And Morrigan is instrumental in helping the PC realize that.  That you can't be afraid of your power in a clutch.  That some ancient traditions need to be preserved!  That Wynne should shut up!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
My Cousland thinks different. He was now Prince consort and he cannot afford to falter.

Ah, this probably makes a difference.

I don't think my Cousland will literally fall apart, either.  Not anytime soon, anyway.  It's more a case of how Maric is described in The Calling.  Outwardly he does (mostly) what is expected and needful, inwardly he's numb, a little resentful, and very lonely.

Plus, he has hopes that he will see her again. Wishful thinking perhaps, but it keeps him from going depressed and failing to do what he is supposed to as Prince.  

I think the question is- does she want to see him again?  Maybe I'll feel differently after seeing the epilogue.

Even inwardly, my Cousland is handling himself well. Sure, he probably won't love anyone again and yes he does feel lonely that Morrigan isn't besides him. But he isn't numb. He is proud of his success and plans to achieve even greater success. Plus, I think he is starting to like Anora, though he will never love her or any other person.

He thinks that eventually, Morrigan will want to see him again. At least that's what the ring hinted at. He isn't delluding himself. He knows there is a high chance he will never see her again. But he can also hope.

[Master Shiori]

Addai67 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Not quite sure I'd call Morrigan's actions a betrayal, especially since she saves your life with the ritual.

The way I see it your Warden and Morrigan are pretty much in a same boat by this point.
Despite how much you love one another you also have a duty that cannot be forsworn.

The Warden must, however, completely take it on faith that Morrigan has a duty that requires her to leave him behind.  She does not even give him the option to say "I will throw it all away to be with you."  She says "I never want to see you again."  The fact that this is obviously difficult for her and that she tried to warn him does mitigate the sense of betrayal and loss, but not by much.

Judging by her ring epilogue I'd say it's more a case of "I can't see you again" then "I don't want to see you again".

I won't deny that the whole ending was a bitter pill to swallow, but without really knowing Morrigan's plan we can't judge her reasons for leaving the Warden.

What we can draw from her words and actions is that she considers this important but also regrets doing it.

Otherwise I share your thoughts on this matter. Having some kind of explanation from Morrigan or even having her clearly conflicted over what she must do would have made the whole dark ritual easier to accept.

But that what we get when Bioware decides to cut out scenes important to romance.
We can only hope they reunite Morrigan and the Warden in future DA titles and shed some light on the whole dark ritual and Morrigan's motives.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 30 avril 2010 - 07:57 .

[Shade of Wolf]

I trust Morrigan - will I regret saying that?

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think my Cousland will literally fall apart, either.  Not anytime soon, anyway.  It's more a case of how Maric is described in The Calling.  Outwardly he does (mostly) what is expected and needful, inwardly he's numb, a little resentful, and very lonely.

My main Cousland started out a pretty naive  and idealistic guy (not unlike Alistair perhaps) and Morrigan's betrayal/dumping/leaving him kind of hardened him a bit. He'll do his duty to Ferelden and the Wardens, but like you mentioned  Maric, he feels a bit emotionally dead inside and has vowed to find Morrigan. So by the time Awakening comes, some of that bitterness or loneliness manifests itself outwardly in him burning Amaranthine and killing the Architect, 2 things he probably wouldn't have done earlier on in Origins. Will he fall apart completely? Probably not, but he'll be searching every corner of Thedas for Morrigan until the Wardens tell him to stop- maybe by then he'll have lost it.

I think the question is- does she want to see him again?  Maybe I'll feel differently after seeing the epilogue.

That is the question:  Morrigan grew up having it drilled into her head that love is a weakness and then what happens? She starts falling in love with the Warden. So perhaps she is resentful of the Warden? In any event, the whole ring epilogue makes it clear she feels sorrow and regret, but does that mean she would want to see the Warden again? She seems quite adament that it would not be wise for the Warden to track her down, but why?

How Bioware does or does not answer all of the "why?" questions regarding Morrigan's departure will really make or break not only Origins' ending but also Morrigan's character going forward, IMO. Whatever reason she might have had, its got to make sense and not come across as the writers wielding their Plot Hammer like they seemed to do in the Ritual Scene.

Modifié par Brockololly, 30 avril 2010 - 08:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shade of Wolf wrote...

I trust Morrigan - will I regret saying that?

Hopefully not.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

I trust Morrigan - will I regret saying that?

Hopefully not.

That is the big question, is it not?

[blademaster7]

Brockololly wrote...
How Bioware does or does not answer all of the "why?" questions regarding Morrigan's departure will really make or break not only Origins' ending but also Morrigan's character going forward, IMO. Whatever reason she might have had, its got to make sense and not come across as the writers wielding their Plot Hammer like they seemed to do in the Ritual Scene.

My greatest  fear...

That we will probably never get our answers. All for the sake of a "plot twist" and a "cliffhanger". I would prefer to play DA2 with my old characters(all of them actually, romance or no) and get to ask her a simple, why?

Honestly, I believe that not even the writers themselves will know how to explain that. They will probably shove a canon ending down our throat and give us a new game without having(or being capable) to explain anything.

I don't have faith in them, but I hope they prove me wrong.

Modifié par blademaster7, 30 avril 2010 - 10:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

I trust Morrigan - will I regret saying that?

Hopefully not.

That is the big question, is it not?

One we cannot answer until the expansion or sequel.
Or perhaps we will never be able to answer it.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

I trust Morrigan - will I regret saying that?

Hopefully not.

That is the big question, is it not?

One we cannot answer until the expansion or sequel.
Or perhaps we will never be able to answer it.

Ugh... thats my worst fear. We're just asking for some closure Bioware, is it that difficult?

[Brockololly]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
A bit off topic, but what I really hate about this game is that throughout the whole journey your PC goes through so much s**t and not one person dares to even ask you “are you ok?” My PC wouldn’t show any joy when asked about this but that person would have gotten up to 25 approval from him. Same way goes for Mass Effect. Every companion has their problems but they pretend like your PC has none. I feel like a shrink.

This is a problem I with most Bioware RPGs- the PC often has a pretty emotionally scarred past in some way and yet all the companions do is talk about themselves. There are some points in DAO where AListair or Morrigan ask about your family which is nice, but it would be nice if maybe your love interest would initiate conversations after a specific mission for example to show more interest in the PC's well being. That sort of thing would really add to the role-playing aspect and get players more attached to their PCs I think.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
A bit off topic, but what I really hate about this game is that throughout the whole journey your PC goes through so much s**t and not one person dares to even ask you “are you ok?” My PC wouldn’t show any joy when asked about this but that person would have gotten up to 25 approval from him. Same way goes for Mass Effect. Every companion has their problems but they pretend like your PC has none. I feel like a shrink.

This is a problem I with most Bioware RPGs- the PC often has a pretty emotionally scarred past in some way and yet all the companions do is talk about themselves. There are some points in DAO where AListair or Morrigan ask about your family which is nice, but it would be nice if maybe your love interest would initiate conversations after a specific mission for example to show more interest in the PC's well being. That sort of thing would really add to the role-playing aspect and get players more attached to their PCs I think.

Anotehr nice thing would have been for companions to offer advice on key decisions. They do once or twice, but msotly complain about your choices.
Morrigan said she studied the hsitory of the treaties, and yet she never put that knowledge to good use.

Zevran telling us how weak Harrowmont is, is a moment I would have loved to see more of.

[Barbarossa2010]

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...

Dammit Barbarossa, change it back, I'll be confusing you with all the other Shepard lookalikes now.

[quote]

Alright I changed it back, just because it was you who asked.  Still not happy with it, but there it is...

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 01 mai 2010 - 12:15 .

[Barbarossa2010]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

As for Morrigan, he has her ring but he doesn’t know how to use it in order to track her down. He believes he will find her one day, but as for their loving relationship… probably over. I doubt that after the way she acted he will still want to be with her. But we don’t know the real reasons why she left or what will happen once the warden finds Morrigan, so maybe a small spark of hope remains for it.


A bit off topic, but what I really hate about this game is that throughout the whole journey your PC goes through so much s**t and not one person dares to even ask you “are you ok?” My PC wouldn’t show any joy when asked about this but that person would have gotten up to 25 approval from him. Same way goes for Mass Effect. Every companion has their problems but they pretend like your PC has none. I feel like a shrink.

My Warden has moved on.  He wants to trust her, but he just can't.  It would have been nice if the edited material didn't end up on the cutting room floor.  It would have made all the difference in the world.  In the vanilla game, Barbarossa simply cannot trust her, for the reasons I have stated more than once, not to mention in one playthrough he's interred in Weishaupt so it's pretty much beside the point.

It would be nice if at least one companion would ask if you were OK once in awhile, you know since your saving the world and all.  Don't you ever feel like you're leading a contingent of co-dependents all over Thedas?

In Mass Effect I remember Liara making an attempt to comfort you after the Council stripped the Normandy from you.  Or did I read that one wrong?

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
In Mass Effect I remember Liara making an attempt to comfort you after the Council stripped the Normandy from you.  Or did I read that one wrong?

Yeah that scene plays in ME1 with any love interest, not just Liara, but that sort of a scene would be nice to have more of. Scenes where the companions try to help out the PC instead of it always being the PC having to listen to everyone's problems.

[Addai]

I re-played the DR scene and I can tell you what bothers me the most about it.

La la la you're going along and Morrigan is telling you she can save your life... wonderful!

All you have to do is sleep with her.... noooo problem.  HNM is already firing up the engines as they speak.

Oh, but she is going to leave afterwards and you can never see her again.  WTF?!

Yet there is no "wtf?!" response to this little tidbit of information in the dialogue choices.  You can't demand her to tell you why you're not allowed to come with her.  You can tell her she's being cruel, but only if you've said no and she's (very coolly) suggested Alistair as an alternative.  Meanwhile, your Warden is just standing there.  Mine would have been at the very least pacing in agitation.  Probably breaking Eamon's fine furnishings.

It's like so much in the end game, things are leveled and simplified so that they are about the same for everyone.  But this is the ultimate crisis of the Morrigan romance, and it's like a business negotiation.  I suppose that it's the same for an Alistair romance, where your Landsmeet and post-Landsmeet resolution is all conducted pretty quickly and in public.  But it's very unsatisfying.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 mai 2010 - 04:54 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

I hated her till i found how nice she could actually be . She hated being in love with me shes a very independant woman i respect that and left her be although she knew about the whole archdemon grey warden thing from the beginning... She said i'd regret it in the end i was like aha! Still im a fanguy for her although not extreme i like leliana just as much

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

I re-played the DR scene and I can tell you what bothers me the most about it.

La la la you're going along and Morrigan is telling you she can save your life... wonderful!

All you have to do is sleep with her.... noooo problem.  HNM is already firing up the engines as they speak.

Oh, but she is going to leave afterwards and you can never see her again.  WTF?!

Yet there is no "wtf?!" response to this little tidbit of information in the dialogue choices.  You can't demand her to tell you why you're not allowed to come with her.  You can tell her she's being cruel, but only if you've said no and she's (very coolly) suggested Alistair as an alternative.  Meanwhile, your Warden is just standing there.  Mine would have been at the very least pacing in agitation.  Probably breaking Eamon's fine furnishings.

It's like so much in the end game, things are leveled and simplified so that they are about the same for everyone.  But this is the ultimate crisis of the Morrigan romance, and it's like a business negotiation.  I suppose that it's the same for an Alistair romance, where your Landsmeet and post-Landsmeet resolution is all conducted pretty quickly and in public.  But it's very unsatisfying.

AMEN!

This is EXACTLY my problem with the DR scene- for the romancing Warden, its just conducted so matter of fact that it totally breaks any role-playing you might be trying to do. Its a failure of the dialogue when you hit a hugely critical scene like the DR and as a player I'm going "OMG! WTF Morrigan! Why can't Cousland ever see you or his Old God Baby!??! Why can't he tag along!?!? WHY!??!?!" and there isn't even any response that comes close to approximating that.  In the end, it feels like the writers cripple your dialogue since it seems like they either don't have the answer to the "why?" for Morrigan or are saving that for a future game, and IMO that breaks the scene and makes it feel really contrived.

Its like why bother with trying to give us all of these choices and relationships when arguably the most important scene for the Morrigan romancing Warden plays out in a cookie cutter fashion, practically the same as if you kicked Morrigan out of your party? Its the whole issue of game endings getting the short end of the stick, which in an epic game like DAO having a mediocre ending to a plot line like Morrigan's can really leave a bad taste in the player's mouth regardless of how good the rest of the game was.

Of course, I'm willing to let Bioware redeem itself if we can pick up Morrigan's romance in DA2 or something, but as it stands right now, its just a kick in the balls, a real low blow,  pure and simple.

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

This is EXACTLY my problem with the DR scene- for the romancing Warden, its just conducted so matter of fact that it totally breaks any role-playing you might be trying to do. Its a failure of the dialogue when you hit a hugely critical scene like the DR and as a player I'm going "OMG! WTF Morrigan! Why can't Cousland ever see you or his Old God Baby!??! Why can't he tag along!?!? WHY!??!?!" and there isn't even any response that comes close to approximating that.  In the end, it feels like the writers cripple your dialogue since it seems like they either don't have the answer to the "why?" for Morrigan or are saving that for a future game, and IMO that breaks the scene and makes it feel really contrived.

Definitely it feels crippled.  At the point that Morrigan says "you allow me to walk away, and you don't follow... ever," my Warden doesn't hear anything else and can think of nothing else.  So all those choices that I'm used to running through as a female PC- "hey, tell me more about this baby" and "do you think this will actually work?" and "just what do you want with this kid anyway?"... he doesn't give a **** about any of it.  At that point, the only half appropriate response is just to say "no way."  And that throws you into Morrigan talking about Alistair as though that were the next best thing. 

Even the dialogue choice where you can agree to the ritual is inappropriate.  Would my PC really say "alright, I agree, I'll do it?"  No.  He would say something more emotional.  Meanwhile, the whole emotion and struggle that you see in Morrigan in the "you selfish bastard" conversation is gone.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 mai 2010 - 05:31 .

[Master Shiori]

Addai67 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

This is EXACTLY my problem with the DR scene- for the romancing Warden, its just conducted so matter of fact that it totally breaks any role-playing you might be trying to do. Its a failure of the dialogue when you hit a hugely critical scene like the DR and as a player I'm going "OMG! WTF Morrigan! Why can't Cousland ever see you or his Old God Baby!??! Why can't he tag along!?!? WHY!??!?!" and there isn't even any response that comes close to approximating that.  In the end, it feels like the writers cripple your dialogue since it seems like they either don't have the answer to the "why?" for Morrigan or are saving that for a future game, and IMO that breaks the scene and makes it feel really contrived.

Definitely it feels crippled.  At the point that Morrigan says "you allow me to walk away, and you don't follow... ever," my Warden doesn't hear anything else and can think of nothing else.  So all those choices that I'm used to running through as a female PC- "hey, tell me more about this baby" and "do you think this will actually work?" and "just what do you want with this kid anyway?"... he doesn't give a **** about any of it.  At that point, the only half appropriate response is just to say "no way."  And that throws you into Morrigan talking about Alistair as though that were the next best thing. 

Even the dialogue choice where you can agree to the ritual is inappropriate.  Would my PC really say "alright, I agree, I'll do it?"  No.  He would say something more emotional.  Meanwhile, the whole emotion and struggle that you see in Morrigan in the "you selfish bastard" conversation is gone.

You pretty much niled it.

The whole ritual feels so weird at that point that it's not even funny. It's like Morrigan suddenly got a massive aproval hit before you entered that room and is back into ther "ice queen" persona.

David Gaider did say that they had originaly planned for DR to play out differently for Wardens who romanced Morrigan or were friendly to her.
Sadly this was cut out due to lack of time on develophers part and instead we got the generic DR.