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[Fallstar]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...
*Image snip*
If Morrigan does appear in Dragon Age 3, I want her to look just like this.

My hopes aren't that much higher than your picture to be perfectly honest.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 14 septembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[Jarlof Seoul]

Dragon Age 3: Inquisition announced! So i'm thinking Chantry/Seekers/Templars (Empire) hunting mages (Jedi), with OGB as a potential champion to make peace? Big role for Morrigan?

[tklivory]

There are rumors that Claudia Black has been signed up for DA3. Of course, OGB is a choice, but Morrigan could be there regardless of whether the DR was performed or not.

My two wishes:
1) MAKER, I hope she looks better than that abomination in the resource file from DA2
2) That the choices made in DA:O actually, truly matter

[TEWR]

I'd prefer Morrigan to look closer to her Sacred Ashes depiction myself. Definitely not that abomination we saw from DAII's files.

I could accept this, however, if the hair color was changed back to black and the hair style was changed to something else with longer hair.



It's a fan-made thing, but still.

Brockololly did bring up a good assessment of Morrigan's character though in the thread I got this from. That she seems less the person to adopt frilly things to fit in then she is the type to sort of stand out, be considered an oddity amongst the nobles of Orlais*, and cause the Orlesians to adopt some of what she does as a new trend.

*Since in every ending, in one way or another, she's westward bound. And Orlais is west of Ferelden.

[revan11exile]

Is that a sword behind her back,if so is it the sword the Warden gets called SpellWeaver i think that's the name i am not sure.

[Lord_Anthonior]

The thread is coming back to life after the anounce of DA3...theories, especulations and wishes are starting to show...it did felt as if most of us here went through the Eluvian during all this time as well hehe. I wonder if once the game is released with Morrigan in it if we'll have the long rants of old times...

In the meantime I just found this...
<3:whistle:

By: asswipe26

[TobiTobsen]

Jarlof Seoul wrote...

Dragon Age 3: Inquisition announced! So i'm thinking Chantry/Seekers/Templars (Empire) hunting mages (Jedi), with OGB as a potential champion to make peace? Big role for Morrigan?

Well... the pessimist in me sees it more like a big chance to screw up Morrigan.

But I hope for the best! Where is my son?! ...Eh... My Wardens son!

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think it would be better if we do not expect anything big from the OGB. The max I'd hope for is a cameo of the baby, but we are more likely to read a codex about him and hear a few lines.

As for Morrigan. I dread to think what they can do to her, but I've already prepared my mind to wipe DA3 from canon should anything happen.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think it would be better if we do not expect anything big from the OGB. The max I'd hope for is a cameo of the baby, but we are more likely to read a codex about him and hear a few lines.

As for Morrigan. I dread to think what they can do to her, but I've already prepared my mind to wipe DA3 from canon should anything happen.

I've gone conservative with the OGB as well - I'd be happy with a codex entry if it means avoiding any plot hammers and retcons. With Morrigan, I'd be content for some sort of recognition of the romantic involvement she had with the Warden (even if it's a codex mention in her [or his] bio). I'm keeping my expectations low and my standards high.

[Ash Wind]

Well, at least with the switch of game engines, Morrigan might again have a chance to look like Morrigan, and not that hiddeous DA2 abomination.

While I was interested in what the OGB's ultimate purpose was, I never thought it would be overly instrumental, as his very existence was only one of several possible choices.

[Funkjoker]

Here's a new thread in the DA3 board including some infos about the protagonists.

I'm not pleased. The old protagonists may appear as NPCs only. Furthermore, writing both off is so bad I do not have high hopes for DA3. I'll wait and see what they'll do in DA3 regarding the Warden (who cares about Hawke?) and of course all the old companions, including Morrigan.

By using a new engine it's very unlikely that one will get an import function; I think they want to "restart" the series by going down the streamlined road as they did with ME3. Forget the old audience, get all other players.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well now apparently Morrigan isn't an atheist as she says in DA:O.
I can see how this can end: Morrigan is a lunatic worshipper of the Old Gods or some elven gods. Sigh *facepalm*

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[TEWR]

Yea, I just saw those comments. Those are really the only things that can happen now. I'm a bit sad at this turn of events.

[Fiacre]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well now apparently Morrigan isn't an atheist as she says in DA:O.
I can see how this can end: Morrigan is a lunatic worshipper of the Old Gods or some elven gods. Sigh *facepalm*

:| Oh, ffs. Why would they even do that?


And I can't say I'm too broken up over the Warden not returning, and I hope he doesn't come back as an NPC either. I just know that if he does -- or even if he had been a voiced protagonist -- I'd spent most of the game shouting in rage about how OOC most of his lines are.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well now apparently Morrigan isn't an atheist as she says in DA:O.
I can see how this can end: Morrigan is a lunatic worshipper of the Old Gods or some elven gods. Sigh *facepalm*

She only ever said she didn't believe in the Maker in Origins, I don't know how that makes her an atheist. She clearly believes in some higher power when she'd giving the whole Dark Ritual chat, which was jarring at the time. But I think its clear now that BioWare will make her some dragon cultist type, since the whole yellow eye thing is what they're pushing in the comics with her sister Yavanna having the yellow eyes and being a dragon freak and now the Tevinter mage guy Titus having the yellow eyes and being involved with dragons.


I just think BioWare is plain stupid for thinking it'll be a good idea to hijack people's old player characters. If they want to do something truly innovative they'd allow for multiple protagonists or at least allow temporary control of them by the player for certain relevent sections, maybe just story only sections. I just don't have much faith in them at this point not making the whole Warden/Morrigan/OGB storyline a total heavy handed mess. It should have been wrapped up in an expansion pack to Origins and its simply gone bad by waiting too long to have any resolution to it, especially if it only ends up being resolved with the Warden as an NPC or offscreen with BioWare hijacking them and giving them motivations contrary to what the player would have done.

At this point I wish they'd just leave that whole damn plot alone and just forget about it quite frankly since I don't exactly have the utmost faith in their ability to write a satisfying conclusion to it, especially if the player isn't in control of the Warden.

Modifié par Brockololly, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morrigan said she believed in no higher power.
" Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?
Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. "

She didn't even imply that she worshiped anything in the DR. She believes the ancient dragons, so called old gods, exist (so does the Chantry). That does not mean she worships them, even if she wants to preserve one.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:45 .

[TEWR]

She clearly believes in some higher power when she'd giving the whole Dark Ritual chat

In the context of her conversation with Leliana, higher power denotes a being that created the universe they live in and experience.

Morrigan says she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power, Old Gods included. The Old Gods are called such by the people of Thedas because it's their historically attributed and more well known name. She believes in them as powerful and ancient dragons worth saving, but not as being actual gods.

They aren't gods, save to the Darkspawn and ancient Magisters. Even Gaider's own statements years ago claimed that they weren't Creators or Created. That they exist outside of the Maker's design, which Morrigan doesn't believe in either.

Believing in a dragon as being real doesn't denote belief in a higher power -- much less worship, else everyone in Thedas who believes in the Old Gods would worship them -- especially when everyone believes in the Old Gods for being... well... very powerful dragons that are real.

They hold no religious significance today in Thedas, and only hold a historical significance as being very old and powerful dragons that might be hibernating instead of entrapped in the bowels of the earth by some guy in a white robe with a flowing beard -- that last part being in the minds of modern scholars of the topic.

Which lines up with what Yavana states in TSG.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 septembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Brockololly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Morrigan says she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power, Old Gods included. The Old Gods are called such by the people of Thedas because it's their historically attributed and more well known name. She believes in them as powerful and ancient dragons worth saving, but not as being actual gods.

I guess when I was saying hgher power, I wasn't necessarily thinking in religous connotations but more "Old Gods/Dragons are just super powerful entities that should be preserved."

Considering how BioWare's writing has gone in the past though, I'm just wondering if they don't spring it on us that Morrigan is some dragon cultist or something. It seems with how wishy washy they've written Morrigan towards the end of Origins and Witch Hunt, they're possibly setting up something like that. So maybe in the context of her conversation with Leliana, she doesn't believe in the Maker but she still believes there are creatures out there like Old Gods/Dragons that possess tons of power that might be an almost God like power. And that she respects or wants to preserve that power or something along those lines.

[Jarlof Seoul]

these last posts are like those of yore on this ye olde thread,arrg! :-)

[TEWR]

So, I've been keeping tabs on Those Who Speak lately, and I think I know just where they're heading with the whole Maric's bloodline thing.

Of course, it was something I speculated briefly during The Silent Grove, but recently I'm convinced I'm right in my speculations.

Brockololly wrote...

I guess when I was saying hgher power, I wasn't necessarily thinking in religous connotations but more "Old Gods/Dragons are just super powerful entities that should be preserved."

Oh in that case, she's certainly a believer in that -- though saying believer probably isn't the best description.

She certainly views them as important, powerful, and worth preserving. But she doesn't believe them worthy of any religious worship, at least in Origins. Power doesn't automatically denote worth of worship, not even to her. All of Thedas views them as extraordinarily powerful beings -- some scholars even saying they're just really powerful Dragons -- but don't worship them because of that.

Well... most don't. Haven and the cultists in Witch Hunt obviously do. and Tevinter.

Though as you said, it seems that they'll probably make her a fanatic Dragon cultist.

[Fallstar]

Yavana says something to suggest that the blood of dragons is linked to the survival of the world. I think that perhaps she made a mistake there, and that it is not the blood of any old high dragon that is linked to the survival of the world, but rather the blood of the Old Gods. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm probably going to try and get all my thoughts together on the matter and make a blog post or something.

[Fallstar]

Quite a long time ago, David Gaider said that the Old Gods “are neither creators nor created.” This does not fit with what the chant of light tells us, that the Maker is the creator of all. It suggests that the Old Gods have always existed, and are somehow tied to the world of Thedas. The Old Gods are very old, powerful beings which take the appearance of dragons. We do not know if they can take on other forms.

Whether or not “Old Gods” is something of a misnomer doesn’t really matter. I’m not talking about whether or not they are true gods. However they do have a history of being worshipped. They were worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium at the height of its power. Archon Thalsian claimed that he learned blood magic from the Old God Dumat in exchange for this worship. There is something of a link between dragons and blood magic - becoming a Reaver requires a blood magic ritual using the blood of a dragon. I’d suggest there is an important connection between blood magic and the Old Gods.

This was before the rise of the Andrastian Chantry, during the time when the Chant claims humanity turned their face away from the Maker. Eventually the magisters broke one of the cardinal rules of magic and entered the fade in their physical forms, using two thirds of the lyrium in the Imperium and the blood of several hundred slaves. This was effectively the end of Tevinter dominance.

In between Thalsian learning blood magic and the magisters entering the fade, the elven society of Arlathan was also at its peak. Modern elves suggest that all of the elves of Arlathan were immortal mages. In DA2, Merril refers to blood magic as “The old ways.” Since the elves of the Dales had already ‘quickened’ and were no longer immortal and always mages, this means she can only be referring to the elves of Arlathan. The elves of Arlathan used blood magic.

This is pure speculation now, but I’m going to suggest that the stories of Arlathan mages being immortal and all mages are partially correct. Specifically, that every mage of Arlathan used blood magic, but that only some of them were ‘traditional’ mana using mages. In both games so far, all blood mages have also used normal magic. But that doesn’t have to be the case. The blood magic codex entry state that “The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana.” In other words, blood magic does not require the user to have any mana, which is derived from a connection to the fade. A connection to the fade is not required for someone to use blood magic; that is going to be important later.

The elves are an old race, whose civilization was built around nature. They lived in and worked with the natural world of Thedas. I think that the elves were taught blood magic by the Old Gods as well as humans, but significantly further back in the timeline. Both are associated with the natural world of Thedas. The elves did not call them Old Gods however; either the elves do not recognise the Old Gods as part of their pantheon or they worship them under different names.

Next up, the Dwarves. The Dwarves cannot naturally enter the fade in their dreams, and can only do so under extreme circumstances. So they cannot have any connection with the fade, and therefore have no source from which to derive any mana. Meaning they can’t be mages. But as we ascertained earlier, having mana is not a requirement to use blood magic. So why can’t the dwarves use blood magic? There is no reason for them not to as far as I can see, other than for the same reason as the elves; as the centuries have gone by, their old civilizations and ways of life have also been lost.

But perhaps the Dwarves are more secretive about their loss of culture than the elves. The Dwarves are reluctant to share information with surfacers after all. I’d guess that this information is hidden from most dwarves too. Perhaps only the king, or even no one at all, knows. Indeed, the dwarves’ almost compulsive recording of every important event in the Memories, and the almost sacred status the Memories hold, suggests that the Dwarves value their history very highly; perhaps because they lost so much of their culture and history, they have now gone to the opposite end of the spectrum and record everything in exquisite detail.

The lost civilization I refer to, is of course related to the Primeval Thaig. Varric and Bartrand had no idea what was going on in the Primeval Thaig. The architecture was completely foreign to them. Yet dwarves certainly lived there. There were strange temples and effigies in the Thaig which Varric didn’t recognise. There was also a complete lack of statues dedicated to the Paragons. So precisely what did the dwarves in the Primeval Thaig worship? I suggest they worshipped the Old Gods. I think that they either struck the same deal as Thalsian, or willingly worshipped the Old Gods and were taught blood magic in return.

Go back and take a look at the architecture in the Primeval Thaig. The red, ‘corrupted’ lyrium runs like veins through many of the building there. Personally I doubt this lyrium was always corrupted, I think it was normal lyrium, then something happened. Same with the corrupted lyrium idol; I think it was once an idol made from normal lyrium. I have two ideas on what could have happened to corrupt the lyrium: first, and least likely I think, is that it was corrupted due to prolonged exposure to blood magic. Second, it was corrupted instantaneously; at the exact moment the darkspawn corrupted Dumat into an Archdemon the lyrium veins running through the temples and the idols dedicated to Dumat were likewise corrupted.

When you look at the lyrium idol specifically, there is a clear link to the Old Gods, specifically to the Archdemons. Those who hold the idol hear it calling to them, similarly to how darkspawn and Wardens hear the Archdemon calling to them. Those who hold it for long periods of time are driven insane as they are not hearing the call of an Old God, which is described by the darkspawn as beautiful. Rather, they are hearing the call of the corrupted Dumat, who clearly has some influence left over the world (granting Corypheus power, and the successful ritual at the altar to Dumat). This all suggests to me that the Dwarves of the Primeval Thaig worshipped the old gods.

Going back to the beginning now: there are clear links between the Old Gods and blood magic, as well as the Old Gods, the elves of Arlathan and the dwarves of the Primeval Thaig(s). The Old gods were not created; they are a natural and important part of Thedas. I think that blood magic stems from them, and that blood magic is not the corrupting power the Chantry leads people to believe; to the contrary, I think it is the more ‘natural’ form of magic, that all living things in Thedas have the capability of wielding. I think that the chantry has the whole thing wrong. It is a young and naïve organisation which does not take into account the elves or dwarves.

Now onto Morrigan and Yavana. Yavana says that the blood of dragons is the blood of the world, or something like that. In essence, she suggests that the existence of the world of Thedas is dependent on the existence of dragons. But I think she is slightly wrong, and that isn’t the existence of any old dragon that the world is dependent on; rather, it is dependent on the blood of the old gods, who have existed for as long as Thedas has. And I think Morrigan knows this. Which is why she (initially) comes with your Warden; she knows that eventually the darkspawn will corrupt all of the old gods, and either all of the old gods will be slain, or eventually a blight will succeed. Either way, the world basically ends. So she needs the soul of an uncorrupted old god, to preserve, so that the old gods don’t die out and the world doesn’t end.

Cookies if you read the whole thing, or can figure out how Flemeth fits in.

[Jarlof Seoul]

DuskWarden wrote...

Quite a long time ago, David Gaider said that the Old Gods “are neither creators nor created.” This does not fit with what the chant of light tells us, that the Maker is the creator of all. It suggests that the Old Gods have always existed, and are somehow tied to the world of Thedas. The Old Gods are very old, powerful beings which take the appearance of dragons. We do not know if they can take on other forms.

Whether or not “Old Gods” is something of a misnomer doesn’t really matter. I’m not talking about whether or not they are true gods. However they do have a history of being worshipped. They were worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium at the height of its power. Archon Thalsian claimed that he learned blood magic from the Old God Dumat in exchange for this worship. There is something of a link between dragons and blood magic - becoming a Reaver requires a blood magic ritual using the blood of a dragon. I’d suggest there is an important connection between blood magic and the Old Gods.

This was before the rise of the Andrastian Chantry, during the time when the Chant claims humanity turned their face away from the Maker. Eventually the magisters broke one of the cardinal rules of magic and entered the fade in their physical forms, using two thirds of the lyrium in the Imperium and the blood of several hundred slaves. This was effectively the end of Tevinter dominance.

In between Thalsian learning blood magic and the magisters entering the fade, the elven society of Arlathan was also at its peak. Modern elves suggest that all of the elves of Arlathan were immortal mages. In DA2, Merril refers to blood magic as “The old ways.” Since the elves of the Dales had already ‘quickened’ and were no longer immortal and always mages, this means she can only be referring to the elves of Arlathan. The elves of Arlathan used blood magic.

This is pure speculation now, but I’m going to suggest that the stories of Arlathan mages being immortal and all mages are partially correct. Specifically, that every mage of Arlathan used blood magic, but that only some of them were ‘traditional’ mana using mages. In both games so far, all blood mages have also used normal magic. But that doesn’t have to be the case. The blood magic codex entry state that “The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana.” In other words, blood magic does not require the user to have any mana, which is derived from a connection to the fade. A connection to the fade is not required for someone to use blood magic; that is going to be important later.

The elves are an old race, whose civilization was built around nature. They lived in and worked with the natural world of Thedas. I think that the elves were taught blood magic by the Old Gods as well as humans, but significantly further back in the timeline. Both are associated with the natural world of Thedas. The elves did not call them Old Gods however; either the elves do not recognise the Old Gods as part of their pantheon or they worship them under different names.

Next up, the Dwarves. The Dwarves cannot naturally enter the fade in their dreams, and can only do so under extreme circumstances. So they cannot have any connection with the fade, and therefore have no source from which to derive any mana. Meaning they can’t be mages. But as we ascertained earlier, having mana is not a requirement to use blood magic. So why can’t the dwarves use blood magic? There is no reason for them not to as far as I can see, other than for the same reason as the elves; as the centuries have gone by, their old civilizations and ways of life have also been lost.

But perhaps the Dwarves are more secretive about their loss of culture than the elves. The Dwarves are reluctant to share information with surfacers after all. I’d guess that this information is hidden from most dwarves too. Perhaps only the king, or even no one at all, knows. Indeed, the dwarves’ almost compulsive recording of every important event in the Memories, and the almost sacred status the Memories hold, suggests that the Dwarves value their history very highly; perhaps because they lost so much of their culture and history, they have now gone to the opposite end of the spectrum and record everything in exquisite detail.

The lost civilization I refer to, is of course related to the Primeval Thaig. Varric and Bartrand had no idea what was going on in the Primeval Thaig. The architecture was completely foreign to them. Yet dwarves certainly lived there. There were strange temples and effigies in the Thaig which Varric didn’t recognise. There was also a complete lack of statues dedicated to the Paragons. So precisely what did the dwarves in the Primeval Thaig worship? I suggest they worshipped the Old Gods. I think that they either struck the same deal as Thalsian, or willingly worshipped the Old Gods and were taught blood magic in return.

Go back and take a look at the architecture in the Primeval Thaig. The red, ‘corrupted’ lyrium runs like veins through many of the building there. Personally I doubt this lyrium was always corrupted, I think it was normal lyrium, then something happened. Same with the corrupted lyrium idol; I think it was once an idol made from normal lyrium. I have two ideas on what could have happened to corrupt the lyrium: first, and least likely I think, is that it was corrupted due to prolonged exposure to blood magic. Second, it was corrupted instantaneously; at the exact moment the darkspawn corrupted Dumat into an Archdemon the lyrium veins running through the temples and the idols dedicated to Dumat were likewise corrupted.

When you look at the lyrium idol specifically, there is a clear link to the Old Gods, specifically to the Archdemons. Those who hold the idol hear it calling to them, similarly to how darkspawn and Wardens hear the Archdemon calling to them. Those who hold it for long periods of time are driven insane as they are not hearing the call of an Old God, which is described by the darkspawn as beautiful. Rather, they are hearing the call of the corrupted Dumat, who clearly has some influence left over the world (granting Corypheus power, and the successful ritual at the altar to Dumat). This all suggests to me that the Dwarves of the Primeval Thaig worshipped the old gods.

Going back to the beginning now: there are clear links between the Old Gods and blood magic, as well as the Old Gods, the elves of Arlathan and the dwarves of the Primeval Thaig(s). The Old gods were not created; they are a natural and important part of Thedas. I think that blood magic stems from them, and that blood magic is not the corrupting power the Chantry leads people to believe; to the contrary, I think it is the more ‘natural’ form of magic, that all living things in Thedas have the capability of wielding. I think that the chantry has the whole thing wrong. It is a young and naïve organisation which does not take into account the elves or dwarves.

Now onto Morrigan and Yavana. Yavana says that the blood of dragons is the blood of the world, or something like that. In essence, she suggests that the existence of the world of Thedas is dependent on the existence of dragons. But I think she is slightly wrong, and that isn’t the existence of any old dragon that the world is dependent on; rather, it is dependent on the blood of the old gods, who have existed for as long as Thedas has. And I think Morrigan knows this. Which is why she (initially) comes with your Warden; she knows that eventually the darkspawn will corrupt all of the old gods, and either all of the old gods will be slain, or eventually a blight will succeed. Either way, the world basically ends. So she needs the soul of an uncorrupted old god, to preserve, so that the old gods don’t die out and the world doesn’t end.

Cookies if you read the whole thing, or can figure out how Flemeth fits in.

Is it possible Flemeth might be a dragon? She sure can shiftchange... Morrigan might then be one too, which would be a little too Witcher 2esque. Morrigan would indeed be a wiser, mor youthful and raised bad girl turned at least neutral if not chaotic good for what became love for her Warden, against her better judgement.

[revan11exile]

Anybody think Morrigan will find a cure for our Warden's if we go into the Mirror World?

[Funkjoker]

^ No? Since when did Morrigan any research regarding that?

The only possible cure I'd see at the moment would be either coming from Avernus and/or the Architect. Since BioWare abandoned our lovely warden, it's unlikely that he'll get a cure (even) offscreen.

Of course I'd like a DLC to DA3 which lets you play as Warden. Kick some Morrigan ass. Cure his taint. Wouldn't be bad. Probability? Not that high :-(