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[springacres]

It's a thread in-joke referring to the long running series of bugs present in Morrigan's dialogue and content in general. The current thread title came about when Witch Hunt launched with a critical bug where your previous choices weren't taken into account in dialogue with her (maybe across the module, I forget now). This of course came after a bugged Awakening romance slides, various bugs in Origins, etc and I think it happened again with the initial release of Inquisition.

 

It is time for a change though, imo, but it needs to be in keeping with the spirit of the Morri thread.

I admit I'm a newcomer/lurker to this thread (I'm a Zev fangirl, myself) but this explains why two of the three choices at the end of Witch Hunt led to my Warden kissing her when they'd never been in a romance and Al did the DR.

 

It might also explain why she ninja kissed him at the gates of Denerim right in front of Zevran.  (I have Gatekisses installed... and I now headcanon that my Warden slapped her afterwards and then spent five minutes wiping his lips on his sleeve.)  That particular bug actually seems like something she might do, though.

[Terra_Ex]

Time to respond to the whole "Big Bad Morri" thing...
 

Yeah sure, maybe Morrigan's character developes more throughout the romance, but I dislike certain parts of her. First of all (BIG SPOILER COMING FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE END YET!!!!!!!!!!), the only reason she ever joined you is to get the essence of the archdemon. And she will leave immediatly after she gets it, or if you refuse to help her. So the romance with her has the "aftertaste" (I hope you can say it that way, I'm no native speaker) of being exploited. To me it seems that she just wants to seduce you from the very beginning and also even shortly before the final quest, so she gets your help. May be the reason why you can bed her so quickly. And although she may loves the Warden, she'll leave him for chasing her own goals.

In my view this is an overly simplistic take on the matter. Yes, Morrigan joins you to secure the soul of the archdemon - and this is a problem because?. Every character that joins needs a motivation, it's how that motivation morphs and is at odds with her feelings of friendship/love towards the Warden that makes it interesting. I wouldn't necessarily say that it leaves you with a feeling of being exploited, her rationale for wanting to save you has at least partially shifted by that point in the story, though there were cuts to that area of the game which do potentially exacerbate that feeling, I will grant you. Ultimately, at the time of release it merely lacked a resolution, even more so if you were in a romance with her, as you were hamstrung through dialogue.

Secondly seduction can't be her modus operandi for the reasons Ash Wind already explained as well as the fact that the warden can be female. She does indeed leave as soon as she gets the OGB, I hope you can understand why that was done but this doesn't inherently make her a bad person, simply that she is driven for whatever reason to pursue a particular goal.

If refused, well it comes back to how she expresses herself, which is another area I want to come back to in more detail in the future so I won't get into it too much now. But essentially, Morrigan in DAO doesn't (imo) know exactly how to go about dropping this bombshell on you or even how to achieve her own goals, hence the building inner turmoil near the end, so when when she lays it all out and you tell her to go away, the frustration at her own inability to sufficiently articulate her feelings comes out and she storms off. In essence, because of the way she expresses herself in an evasive manner (and I'll come back to this in a future post tying it in with some Gaider quotes) that in itself, causes people to mistrust her, which is something she has in common with her mother.

Since you keep bringing up bedding Morrigan, putting aside the fact that it takes two to tango, Morrigan's romance has, to my recollection 3 separate entry points, only one of which is based around sex, with the others it is entirely possible to get to the DR without sleeping with her at all-
-"'Tis cold in my tent", I'm sure you're aware of this one
-Golden Mirror, a gift item you can happen upon after hearing her story on the matter can allow you to enter a romance
-After slaying Flemeth, if you are not in a romance with her, she will broach the subject in a much more heartfelt manner that is more inline with where her character development leads at that late stage of the game. This path is probably the most satisfying imo.

As for the Witch Hunt stuff you mentioned earlier (not quoting you as I already have too many quotes), part of the reason that it exists was to correct the fact that there is zero resolution for players that romanced her in Origins within the main campaign itself, (and she also didn't send HoF a letter in Awakening) which comes back to the cut content aspects of the DR. Was it short? Sure, but it also affords numerous roleplay opportunities throughout the module to deepen the romance through interactions with Ariane, Dog and so on, and that's more than any of the other romances got. A romance arc is not just the sum total of interactions between two parties, a good one will involve other factors/parties and play off of them. WH did this when this Ariane brings up the Warden's habit of playing with Morrigan's ring as well as several other places.
 

Second, I think she is really harsh and unfriendly. You can see this in nearly every dialogue with her and she also doesn't seem to get along with ANY of your party members. While Sten would be the most fitting towards her views of "power and survival", she constantly makes fun of him. But I won't say these dialogues aren't funny. Just doesn't make her really sympathetic. Well and as I always play as the "good guy", she nearly disapproves anything that I want to do (you get alot of gifts for her so a high approval is still quite easy to achieve)

Surface level analysis yet again. You'll understand Morrigan a lot better if you have/had a similar personality to her irl, or know someone who does. This really comes down to being yet another veiled variation on the "I don't like Morrigan because she's mean, I like Leliana because she's nice" theme and I can't even begin to tell you how wrong that is and how transparent it is. Every point you make is coloured by this bias, intentionally or not.

Morrigan operates primarily on two levels - the person she thinks she needs to be, influenced mostly by Flemeth and the other side of her, which is at odds with the first, is the side where she allows her feelings and heart to take hold. The second has largely reconciled itself with the first when DAI begins, through HoF/Kieran, life at the Orlesian court and of course the developments with Flemeth during Origins as well as the passage of time, but she still keeps her feelings to herself by and large. This isn't just theory anymore, it is factually supported and played upon by DAI's content. The takeaway being, as has always been the case, only those who are genuinely close to her get to see that side, so HoF/Kieran for example, but you (as the inquisitor) can also see it shine through the cracks if they come up in conversation. You also see hints of it as early as DA:O in Wynne's second conversation with the Warden about Morrigan, where she's says something to the effect of that she sometimes catches Morrigan smiling fondly while looking at the Warden.

With regards Morrigan's barbed words, again a lot of us like Morrigan precisely because she is a challenging character, both as a companion and as HoF's lover, we don't need or desire a squad of yes men (or yes women) that exist in perfect harmony and deference to the player's will, that's boring, tedious and overdone. It should come as little surprise to you that those of us who frequent the Morri thread also employ sarcastic barbs, dry humour and irony on a regular basis. Morrigan's attitude and demeanour are the result of her upbringing and environment. You witness the internal struggle that takes place within her at several points in DAO and witness the end result in DAI.

And lastly - why does it matter that she doesn't get along with everyone? I personally loved the two instances that Wynne challenges you on your relationship with Morrigan, the first, well it's not far removed from the arguments you're making right now, truth be told. So, even here, Morrigan's inability to gel with the rest of the team brings fresh perspective and more flavour to the romance and by extension her character - I love the implication that Alistair and Leliana are befuddled as to why the HoF likes Morrigan so much, which again plays off HoF's friendship with Alistair. Think about how the fact that Morrigan and the Warden are lovers affects the best-buddies thing that HoF has going on with Alistair, who hates her.

And as I'm listing just a few examples off the top of my head, you should be noticing that Morrigan's romance is considerably more far-reaching than you seem to think it is, here's my warden's complete story pertaining to Morrigan from DAO through WH:

-Post-DAO, the Warden needs some consoling via his good friend Alistair, but wait, Alistair hates Morrigan, so what does he have to say - "There, there buddy, I totally feel for you. I'm *REALLY* sorry that damn bitc-Uh, I mean, that nice 'Witch' Morrigan ran off but there's no need to cry about it." That leads into HoF striking out to find Morrigan but very quickly being required to deal with the situation in Amarathine, leading into...
-Awakening- My HoF shows up, he's a little annoyed at the whole situation because he wants to find Morrigan and get some answers, but duty calls. But that desire, I allow it to colour HoF's actions in Awakening, unlike in DAO, I have him take direct, affirmative and definitive action on things with a view to ending the whole thing as quickly and effectively as possible. This ultimately isn't possible because the whole situation is bigger than my HoF anticipated and thus takes him longer to bring a close to the whole thing. When everything is wrapped up, he's made some hard choices, stepped on some people to bring a close to the whole thing and is ultimately ready to go back to his own personal quest.
-WH - after a unsuccessful search for Morri, eventually a lead is discovered, and it carries on from there.

The game doesn't necessarily support or recognise a lot of these things, but I'm able to RP my increasingly annoyed HoF over the course of the campaigns pretty effectively, adding a different spin to the expansion content before he is able to reach his end goal by the end, and thankfully Bioware tossed in quite a lot of Morri-romance relevant stuff in WH. So tell me, when Leliana left your HoF at the end of Origins, how did that factor into your playthrough of the expansion?
 

Last but not least, I think she has not many dialogue options even once she's romanced. I remember that she has like 3 ("What is love?" , "I won't sleep with you" and the pre and past personal quest dialogue).

From personal experience working on her dialog files, I'd have to disagree, there's no less than any other party member, probably more if you count restored content. Can you back up these claims that Leliana has more dialogue, understanding that you'll then have to go on to demonstrate that quantity > quality?
 

In my opinion, the Leliana romance is more fun and rewarding. Comparing these two characters, Leliana surely is more sympathetic and funny. I think she also has more dialogue, which is a plus. But as you said, tastes are different. It's already worthwhile to romance both and dump one of them for their party dialogue.

Unsurprisingly, given that this is the Morrigan thread, I could not disagree more. I feel that having the HoF coax out the hidden facets of Morrigan's personality and exposing that side of her to the real world elicited extensive personal growth in her from DAO-DAI. That alone eclipses anything I've seen from Leliana, so no, I do not agree that Leliana's romantic arc is more fun nor more rewarding than Morrigan's, quite the opposite in fact. Furthermore I reject the notion that Leliana is a more sympathetic character, at least once you look beyond the surface level. When you take into account how Morrigan was raised, the implications of what you see with her interactions with Flemeth in the fade (in Origins) you have an equally tragic character. Add to this how Flemeth wanted her to behave around men, the fact that she has no friends and is essentially alone in the world at that point with relatively poor social skills. While Morrigan puts on airs about this, you can see glimpses through conversations that in some ways she is still just a confused little girl, especially when measured against her mother. Like with the Cousland Origin, one can also look at how Morrigan was sent off with the wardens to be a form of abandonment, then later compounded into losing the only family she had when she learns of Flemeth's plans for her and being forced to take action.

As for Leliana being more funny, yeah, I again don't see it. I'll take the sarcastic barbs and the wordplay battles that HoF can have with Morrigan over the bard's tales, thanks. And hell, I like Leliana, if she was in any other game, I'd likely go for her, but she is no Morrigan, I'm afraid.

Oh and it seems I forgot to mention one more minor detail that underlines Morrigan's romance and story - it ties into DAO thematically and thus the central story arc and her romance are both enriched through close association. Morrigan has links to: Flemeth, Wardens, Survival, Old Gods, HoF's son and so on. That Morrigan's regular life with her family has actually turned out pretty nicely for her despite her reservations is just the proverbial cherry on top, it has everything - ups and downs, tragedy, separation, two "families" torn apart, a reunion, shades of grey, the list goes on. I mentioned earlier about how it also enriches the dialogue with other companions so quite how you reach the conclusion that Morrigan's romance is lacking in content is beyond me. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe we've whipped ourselves into a tizzy over it for 5 years and it's actually just those 3 conversations you mention...
 

However I think the reason she wants to break up as soon as she thinks she's in love with your character is somehow for her own purpose. In this perspective it's nearly ironical she calls you selfish for still wanting to be with her after her confession. Morrigan still needs to complete her original task and too many feelings will make it complicated for her to leave the Warden after the final battle.

You do realise you are making our point for us now, don't you? It is precisely because of this inner conflict that makes her character and romance more endearing to us. The fact that if she leaves and you don't go with her through the Eluvian, then later in DAI she says that she returned to Ferelden to find HoF, combined with the sorrow & regret slides, that's pretty hard, melancholic stuff on the personal level and implies, no- proves that over time she's reconsidered what's really important to her.
 

and I think she hides some important parts of her scheme from you.

Well this is leading into a larger discussion really since Ash brought up a few pages back that perhaps the reason Morrigan left in Origins was because that it was a preconceived idea/plot climax on the part of the writers, to the extent that the exact rationale behind it wasn't fully thought out, hence why we have just a wishy-washy "I have a plan, you can't come with me, bye." We have had this discussion before but with the Gaider interviews Ash mentioned and the info in Inquisition I'll probably get into the specifics of this again in the future.
 

Regarding her character it is clear for me that she'll eventually use this child for achieving more power.

Support this statement with evidence. Within the scope of DAO alone, that is one possible interpretation, and comes down to how much the Warden trusts her but it is ultimately proven false in DAI. A Morrigan who has had a child from DAO>DAI has changed and I have shown with in-game evidence in my large post several pages back that as of DAI, your statement is factually incorrect - Morrigan ultimately chooses her son's well-being over any power that he might hold, this is shown in-game and cannot be denied.
 

If I recall it right, she also calls the romance with the warden a "misadventure" before the final fight and leaves the Warden and his companions anyway.

I don't mean to be insulting but with Morrigan, the wordplay, semantics and inflection used are extremely important in her dialogue and I'm wondering if you're missing the subtext due to a language barrier, based on your responses to Ash Wind, I believe this is the case. Like with this example, you seem to be focusing on the literal meaning of "misadventure" rather than the implied meaning of the sentence as a whole. Essentially, your understanding seems to be bound to the surface level of her dialogue rather than the real meaning hidden behind the words, and the ability to read between the lines to discern subtle truths is pretty much the crux of Morrigan's romance.

Additionally Ash also already pointed out Morrigan's exact final words at the gates of Denerim, "This could have been so much easier, and yet… I cannot regret what has happened between us…" which underline her true feelings on the matter. Misadventure is actually brought up much earlier in the romance and again context & the inflection used when she says it is what's important - it doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.
 

Last, she still feels like a "Störfaktor"(I don't know the english word; disturbing factor?) in your party. I never liked how she can't get along with anyone.

Good, I was pleased to have someone like Morrigan along for the ride, the game wouldn't be the same without her. You're free to dislike Morrigan but it shouldn't surprise you that people in this thread will be opposed to your stance on the matter and we've been doing this for years and have seen it all before. I personally feel that a lot of people that dislike her do so because they don't understand her (even the game toys with this at times), a situation which mirrors real life. My personal take on the matter is that your opinions are coloured by a preconception that "Leliana is nice, so I like her and Morrigan is mean, so I don't like her" and you're trying to fit everything within that foregone conclusion, but that won't pass muster with us.

While we're here, let's tackle the Morrigan is so mean, oh so cruel issue...

Morrigan is a pragmatist, so in real terms, with the darkspawn threat looming on the horizon you would not have time for solving every peasant's problem when your main goal is to halt the Blight's incursion. She simply acts as the voice on your shoulder, pointing out more expedient solutions to the problems that present themselves. "Oh what's that, Denerim got flattened? Too bad I was off playing matchmaker to Cammen and Gheyna..." Were time an actual factor in the Blight's progression, you'd be thanking her for keeping you focused on what's important. And yet, discovering that there is often a middle ground is also an important learning process for her as well and is a partial contributor to her changes over time. The only game I recall doing something like this would be Fallout 2, where if you messed about being the saviour to all instead of focusing on your main quest to get the water chip, your home village meets an undesirable end and you don't feel like much of hero when you eventually head home. While we don't see that level of reactivity in DAO, the implication is that it's there in the background. So if Morrigan needs to use sarcasm and a sharp tongue to open your eyes to that fact, so be it.

And if you want to focus on why she's tossing out insults and whatnot, it is a product of her upbringing, she has put up barriers around herself in DAO and adopted the frosty personality, both mistrustful and wary of others intentions. Her acerbic tone is just one aspect of this, to preemptively hurt others before they have the chance to hurt her, ie: a defense mechanism. Who knew that living in a swamp, hunted by templars and terrorised by your mother would screw you up...

And on that note, it was nice to see Morrigan get a chance at the extravagant opulence in Orlais within DAI without fear of Flemeth smashing all her possessions up. So no, Morrigan isn't quite as unsympathetic as you seem to think and I personally loved the fact that she expressed a genuine happiness with how things turned out with HoF in DAI. And that's why we love romanced Morrigan, she's a great character on her own but given the appropriate nudge, she's so much more.

And that's enough sappy crap from me for now.

So to wrap up and summarise- other people can see and appreciate aspects of a character that you either cannot or have yet to recognise, often through their own personal experiences. I'd say the most obvious recent example of this would be Gaider's work on Dorian, where aspects of that character's arc and romance would speak far more strongly to some sections of the audience than others. You say English isn't your first language so I don't know, maybe aspects and subtleties of her character are lost on you. To me, Morrigan's romance and story arc are one of the best I've experienced in a game. There's nothing wrong with liking one more than the other or preferring a simpler approach, but if you come into the Morrigan thread making statements like those you did above, expect to be called on it and for us to demonstrate why you're wrong.

Think of it like this- some stories have morals that you can take away from them - something that isn't necessarily readily apparent from the text itself, but it always present subtextually and that's of the case here with Morrigan too - it is layered, multi-faceted and works on multiple levels. Like when Ash got you with the Leliana kissy face jab, there's a place for relatively straightforward romances, but there are those us that enjoy strife, nuance and drama. We love the interplay of Morri's romance with her own goals and other interlinking plot arcs,

 

Well, that was fun, I'll respond to other stuff later.

[springacres]

So to wrap up and summarise- other people can see and appreciate aspects of a character that you either cannot or have yet to recognise, often through their own personal experiences. I'd say the most obvious recent example of this would be Gaider's work on Dorian, where aspects of that character's arc and romance would speak far more strongly to some sections of the audience than others. You say English isn't your first language so I don't know, maybe aspects and subtleties of her character are lost on you. To me, Morrigan's romance and story arc are one of the best I've experienced in a game. There's nothing wrong with liking one more than the other or preferring a simpler approach, but if you come into the Morrigan thread making statements like those you did above, expect to be called on it and for us to demonstrate why you're wrong.

Think of it like this- some stories have morals that you can take away from them - something that isn't necessarily readily apparent from the text itself, but it always present subtextually and that's of the case here with Morrigan too - it is layered, multi-faceted and works on multiple levels. Like when Ash got you with the Leliana kissy face jab, there's a place for relatively straightforward romances, but there are those us that enjoy strife, nuance and drama. We love the interplay of Morri's romance with her own goals and other interlinking plot arcs,

 

Well, that was fun, I'll respond to other stuff later.

^This.  I have yet to romance Morrigan, so I can't speak to her romance arc, but her friendship arc is interesting in and of itself.  My canon Warden was kind of a jerk to her - he didn't care for her attitude towards his fellow Circle mages, for starters - but even he got to the point where he was willing to consider her a friend.  (If only because there's no good term for someone you don't particularly like but still feel the need to look out for.)

[Damdil]

@Terra_Ex:

 

While we clearly not have the same opinion, first I would like to thank you for the effort you cleary put in your post. Always nice to see that people are actually interested in exchange of views and not only bashing the others.   Since I have much to do today (saturday or not) I may be not able to comment on everything you wrote right now.

 

 

 

I don't mean to be insulting but with Morrigan, the wordplay, semantics and inflection used are extremely important in her dialogue and I'm wondering if you're missing the subtext due to a language barrier, based on your responses to Ash Wind

 

 

I don't think this is really true, although you may have this impression. First of all, I'm far better in understanding English than speaking or writing it myself. Also I would say that my English skills are ok, if not really good. I usually play every game in English (English voice actors are often more professional) for improving my English. Most important, I played the game in German until I changed the language, since some mods only support the English dialogues. So I heard most of the dialogues in my mother tongue and English, which should be sufficient for understanding them. Also, I play with subtitles and look most words up which I don't understand. Many of the points you brought up are within the scope of interpretation, they may be seen in more than one "true" way.

 

 

 

Secondly seduction can't be her modus operandi for the reasons Ash Wind already explained as well as the fact that the warden can be female. She does indeed leave as soon as she gets the OGB, I hope you can understand why that was done but this doesn't inherently make her a bad person, simply that she is driven for whatever reason to pursue a particular goal.

 

I never thought of the fact she won't romance a female warden, it's a quite good point in fact. But still, I think she'll do whats needed to gather the archdemon's soul. I guess Morrigan also tries to persuade a female warden speaking to Alistair/Loghain. Since both won't agree voluntary to sleep with her, I didn't want to force this on them. In my opinion, it underlines she just needs any Warden for doing the ritual and hopes your character would do it with out too much questioning. The fact that she can save the Warden with it is clearly a bait and first, I didn't even believe it would work this way. It's also somehow naive in my opinion simply to trust her she'll do nothing bad with the old god soul. What good could come from this? So I can't say that I've seen her son in DA: I, in general she seemed more or less the same character to me.

 

 

 

Since you keep bringing up bedding Morrigan, putting aside the fact that it takes two to tango, Morrigan's romance has, to my recollection 3 separate entry points, only one of which is based around sex, with the others it is entirely possible to get to the DR without sleeping with her at all-
-"'Tis cold in my tent", I'm sure you're aware of this one
-Golden Mirror, a gift item you can happen upon after hearing her story on the matter can allow you to enter a romance
-After slaying Flemeth, if you are not in a romance with her, she will broach the subject in a much more heartfelt manner that is more inline with where her character development leads at that late stage of the game. This path is probably the most satisfying imo.

 

I think you forgot one: When you gift her the Grimoire from Irving's office, you can ask for a kiss as a reward. Surely this also triggers the romance. Why I bed her in the beginning? It's the most interesting way to start both romances, I think. Unlocks some great party banter and gives the most of dialogue with Morrigan and Leliana, which eventually forces you to choose. While it's possible, I was never interested in having both romances active (feels quite wrong).

 

 

 

 

Surface level analysis yet again. You'll understand Morrigan a lot better if you have/had a similar personality to her irl, or know someone who does. This really comes down to being yet another veiled variation on the "I don't like Morrigan because she's mean, I like Leliana because she's nice" theme and I can't even begin to tell you how wrong that is and how transparent it is. Every point you make is coloured by this bias, intentionally or not.

 

Well no, I don't know someone who is so disrepectful and harsh. Who would be so mean to Wynne? Sure, Wynne is not the most interesting person, but it's somehow cruel to be so mean to an old woman. While I would like to elaborate this point further,  it would take too long for now, as you explained in great detail. So maybe later. I already can say that I don't want a party which never questions my decision, but Morrigan is a bit over in the top in this matter. For example, she even approves murdering the merchant in Lothering (misclicked this choice  ).

 

 

 

From personal experience working on her dialog files, I'd have to disagree, there's no less than any other party member, probably more if you count restored content. Can you back up these claims that Leliana has more dialogue, understanding that you'll then have to go on to demonstrate that quantity > quality?

 

While it's surely arguable which dialogs have more quality, I will for now back up the "quantity part" from my memory and little help from the DragonAgeWiki. Leliana has a lot of dialogue which triggers automatically once you speak to her after a certain point in the story and/or approval: The "I lied to you about Orlais -,"Clear night"-, "I enjoy having watch together with you"-, "pre/post-personal quest"- and "Urn of Sacred Ashes" plus "the Maker sent you"-dialogue. Also I'm quite sure I forgot one. On top of that, there is an additional "post-personal-quest" dialogue which can be triggered manually. Also the dialogues about what she'll do afterwards. I think there is EVEN more, not including the stuff she tells you no matter how high her approval is (the stories, the song and such). If you ask her to leave the party while she is in love with the Warden, she'll also try to convince you to stay (you can state she'll be saver somewhere else), something similar happens if you want to break up.

 

 

 

There are huge parts from your post which I didn't mentioned yet, but I will surely do this later.

[Terra_Ex]

To start off with, note that I don't really care overmuch what your opinion on Morrigan is, you are free to think what you wish. If your logic becomes circular however, there won't really be much to discuss so please bear that in mind. The vast majority of what I needed to say on the matter is in my previous post.
 

I don't think this is really true, although you may have this impression. First of all, I'm far better in understanding English than speaking or writing it myself. Also I would say that my English skills are ok, if not really good. I usually play every game in English (English voice actors are often more professional) for improving my English. Most important, I played the game in German until I changed the language, since some mods only support the English dialogues. So I heard most of the dialogues in my mother tongue and English, which should be sufficient for understanding them. Also, I play with subtitles and look most words up which I don't understand. Many of the points you brought up are within the scope of interpretation, they may be seen in more than one "true" way.

I wouldn't bring it up if I didn't think it was at least partially true, it's not meant as an insult but merely to get you thinking on some other possibilities. People do miss things -subtext, symbolism, etc in works all the time. Secondly, you do realise that in localising a game for other languages changes to dialogue are introduced and despite the best intentions the exact meaning and subtleties of the original sentence may not be perfectly conveyed or it may indeed be conveyed in a different way. You see this often when the gaming/anime communities complain about localisations of animes/games, where efforts can fall skew to the overly literal if the source material is followed too closely and too far from the original intent if too much creative leeway is given.

For example, when I was working with someone on getting the Morrigan Restoration Patch to work with non-english copies of Dragon Age, we discovered that in the French version there is a section where the Warden is referred to explicitly and mistakenly as a female (or something along those lines), so mistakes and differences will naturally occur between languages during the localisation process. In this case, English is the source material and I'm afraid I don't know German well enough to comment on whether such differences do exist, but it wouldn't surprise me if they do.

My point was though (regardless of which language you're playing in) that Morrigan's dialogue goes beyond just the words. Like if you've ever seen a girl say to someone "you're an idiot", that doesn't necessarily mean what it appears to. It could be said affectionately to her boyfriend or something, which puts a different spin on it and much of Morrigan's dialogue is a play on words and makes use of such techniques.
 

I never thought of the fact she won't romance a female warden, it's a quite good point in fact. But still, I think she'll do whats needed to gather the archdemon's soul. I guess Morrigan also tries to persuade a female warden speaking to Alistair/Loghain. Since both won't agree voluntary to sleep with her, I didn't want to force this on them. In my opinion, it underlines she just needs any Warden for doing the ritual and hopes your character would do it with out too much questioning. The fact that she can save the Warden with it is clearly a bait and first, I didn't even believe it would work this way.

Right, the bolded - here's your first problem and what I'm trying to get you to realise, my standpoint is supported by in-game evidence across two games, author notes in the toolset and external interviews with the developers like David Gaider (both very recent and older), your standpoint, as presented thus far, is largely formed from supposition and your own personal bias. We have evidence in the form of Author's notes in the toolset which describe the intention behind particular moments in the game. This is why I can state with confidence why certain aspects can be interpreted a particular way with certainty. Next up, we have Gaider's quotes on record as saying that Morrigan was supposed to come across as deeply conflicted over the whole Dark Ritual affair - go look up Aimo's comic on the matter if you don't believe me. Now, as I mentioned earlier, there were sadly cuts to the portion of the game, however, once again there are notes in the toolset around the dialogue itself describing intent. You can choose to deny this or ignore it, but those are the facts.
 

It's also somehow naive in my opinion simply to trust her she'll do nothing bad with the old god soul. What good could come from this? So I can't say that I've seen her son in DA: I, in general she seemed more or less the same character to me.

Covered this already, it comes down to whether you trust her or not and it is (was) a gamble at the time and I've never denied that, point is those of us that grew close enough to her as a friend or more were willing to take that risk, largely because of the development she displayed over the course of the game. Given said development, I could even say that it's rather closed-minded to jump to the assumption that she would do something bad, even just within the scope of DAO itself - we already knew back in DAO that she'd cut ties with Flemeth, so the original plan whatever it was (if Morrigan even knew the details) is off the table, she subsequently went into hiding, this was all foreshadowed by the Flemeth possession angle causing Morrigan to start seriously questioning the way of things. As for what good can come of it, that's been covered too - saves your life, possibly saves the life of your love, ultimately allows for a dramatic shift in Morrigan's outlook. Like it or not, your expectations with OGB & Morrigan are subverted in DAI.

To your bolded point, this is your second problem - you haven't seen her son or the version of Morrigan that was romanced in DAI and yet are making sweeping statements on the matter regardless of that gap in your knowledge. One would expect that if she didn't connect with the warden and/or have a child that she would be more or less the same person in Inquisition, I shouldn't have to point out why. Here's the thing, we have seen how things play out with her OGB son in DAI, which is why I can use evidence to support my arguments across both games.
 

I think you forgot one: When you gift her the Grimoire from Irving's office, you can ask for a kiss as a reward. Surely this also triggers the romance. Why I bed her in the beginning? It's the most interesting way to start both romances, I think. Unlocks some great party banter and gives the most of dialogue with Morrigan and Leliana, which eventually forces you to choose. While it's possible, I was never interested in having both romances active (feels quite wrong).

Can't remember off the top of my head, probably. You're certainly free to bed Morrigan whenever, that approach seems kind of juvenile to me, but each to their own. The point we're making is there are multiple ways into and through the romance, you're taking this "easy to bed" thought and running with it all the way to your "seduction" conclusion, which simply isn't the case.
 

Well no, I don't know someone who is so disrepectful and harsh. Who would be so mean to Wynne? Sure, Wynne is not the most interesting person, but it's somehow cruel to be so mean to an old woman. While I would like to elaborate this point further, it would take too long for now, as you explained in great detail. So maybe later. I already can say that I don't want a party which never questions my decision, but Morrigan is a bit over in the top in this matter. For example, she even approves murdering the merchant in Lothering (misclicked this choice ).

Well your first sentence suggests a lack of perspective then, you are judging someone that you don't really understand and shunning them based on the surface details, again, which comes back to my closing paragraph on how certain characters will resonate with some players more than others. There's nothing wrong with doing that if that character archetype offends you, but you can't use that personal taste to defeat all opposing viewpoints - just because Morrigan is "mean" that doesn't make her feelings for the Warden nor her desire to save them are a lie, nor does Morrigan being mean support the notion that every idea she puts forward must have some ulterior motive. As for Wynne- because Wynne embodies everything she dislikes, because Wynne disapproves of her methods, her relationship with the Warden? Because Wynne embraces the idea of knuckling under an oppressive regime which inhibits personal freedom. A lifetime spent in the shackles of the Circle isn't something that would appeal to someone like Morrigan. She's outspoken on the matter, sure, and I don't approve of everything she says either, but as I explained elsewhere (not repeating it here, you can read it for yourself) - there's a reason for it and she never actively forces you to take a specific course of action.
 

While it's surely arguable which dialogs have more quality, I will for now back up the "quantity part" from my memory and little help from the DragonAgeWiki. Leliana has a lot of dialogue which triggers automatically once she speak to her after a certain point in the story and/or approval: The "I lied to you about Orlais -,"Clear night"-, "I enjoy having watch together with you"-, "pre/post-personal quest"- and "Urn of Sacred Ashes" plus "the Maker sent you"-dialogue. Also I'm quite sure I forgot one. On top of that, there is an additional "post-personal-quest" dialogue which can be triggered manually. Also the dialogues about what she'll do afterwards. I think there is EVEN more, not including the stuff she tells you no matter how high her approval is (the stories, the song and such). If you ask her to leave the party while she is in love with the Warden, she'll also try to convince you to stay (you can state she'll be saver somewhere else), something similar happens if you want to break up.

Well if I'm ever bored enough and have sufficient time, I'll crack open the toolset and do a direct comparison of the two. Before heading down that path however I'd suggest you have a think about my comments on a romance not being the sum total of the one-on-one conversations between the player and love interest.
 

I admit I'm a newcomer/lurker to this thread (I'm a Zev fangirl, myself) but this explains why two of the three choices at the end of Witch Hunt led to my Warden kissing her when they'd never been in a romance and Al did the DR.
 
It might also explain why she ninja kissed him at the gates of Denerim right in front of Zevran.  (I have Gatekisses installed... and I now headcanon that my Warden slapped her afterwards and then spent five minutes wiping his lips on his sleeve.)  That particular bug actually seems like something she might do, though.

Yeah, I think with DAO especially the best way to get the game to recognise what's what romance wise is just to stick to one LI, because they didn't really implement a thorough enough system to trap instances where you can break up and make up through dialogue and items multiple times and even if you stay true weird stuff can still happen. It's likely the reason why they employ the lock-in system in DAI, which is probably for the best, all things considered.

I remember Leliana has that ninja-romance line where you just suddenly end up in a romance with her for no reason, which while amusing, my Warden certainly didn't miss the dirty look Morrigan was giving him from across the way.

And welcome to the Morri thread, things can get... intense here at times, heh.

[springacres]

At least bugs can make for amusing headcanon.  

[Damdil]

First of all let me make clear: I don't want to persuade you that Morrigan is an all bad and totally unlikeable character (also not my opinion) but I certainly disagree with some points of your argumentation.

 

 

I'd say we drop the dark ritual part for now. But I must say, if you focus only on the information you get in DA:O (and no developer comments and so on) the whole situation is clearly made for putting the player in a dilemma. There is no way you can be sure what happens after the ritual and Alistair+Loghain have their concerns towards this as well. Would have be fun to know what the rest of your party says about it. Well, here we are and the ritual did no harm. I see your point. I'm quite curious how Bioware will continue this part of the story in the future.

 

 

 

To your bolded point, this is your second problem - you haven't seen her son or the version of Morrigan that was romanced in DAI and yet are making sweeping statements on the matter regardless of that gap in your knowledge

 

Did you make a playthrough with an unromanced Morrigan? I'm wondering if there are major differences. From what I remember from Morrigan's dialogues in DA:I they weren't as harsh as in Origins, but in my opinion all dialogues got a little "plainer" in Inquisition in the sense of "more clean". I hope you unterstand, what I want to say.

 

 

 

Can't remember off the top of my head, probably. You're certainly free to bed Morrigan whenever, that approach seems kind of juvenile to me, but each to their own. The point we're making is there are multiple ways into and through the romance, you're taking this "easy to bed" thought and running with it all the way to your "seduction" conclusion, which simply isn't the case.

 

 

On what do you refer with "juvenile" ? The fact, that I started both romances or the "asking for a kiss"-thingy? I thing it's noticeable, that Morrigan is already in for a kiss after the "How do I get on your good side?"-dialogue, which is only avaible on the road, while Leliana needs a more or less high approval for it and you need to sucessfully go through an automatically triggered dialogue from her. Edit: Though without mods it isn't wise to raise her approval quickly, as it messes up the personal quest.

 

 

 

Morrigan is a pragmatist, so in real terms, with the darkspawn threat looming on the horizon you would not have time for solving every peasant's problem when your main goal is to halt the Blight's incursion. She simply acts as the voice on your shoulder, pointing out more expedient solutions to the problems that present themselves. "Oh what's that, Denerim got flattened? Too bad I was off playing matchmaker to Cammen and Gheyna..." 

 

While I agree that there should be some kind of time limit for main quest, it's interesting that you brought up the example of these elves. While Morrigan doesn't like the "teenie-romance" you can get them engaged in, she herself acts a bit this way. She'll giggle and finds it flattering you're asking so many questions about her and states "I like that you like it". (I acutually liked that part). 

 

I don't want to quote everything you wrote towards her attitude (would make my post to large) but I'll answer anyway. Sure, she doesn't have many experience with social things and grew up with her crazy witch mother. Still, in my opinion, she surely has the skills for being more approchable. You see, she's talking to your party all the time but usually comes up with some kind of disrespectful stuff and/or teases in a way which is often clearly over the top. You see, Sten also doesn't really like Alistair. But he won't "mop" (I hope that's the right word) him so badly. Morrigan certainly doesn't present herself as a person with no social skills or anxiety from others. 

 

Towards her viewpoint about power and survival: It's clearly influence by Flemeth, that's right. But she makes clear that she agrees with them. For example, if she says "power has meaning and survival has meaning" you can state that she doesn't have to live this way anymore. But Morrigan will simply shrug of every approach like this. Even when she admits her love for the Warden, she still sees it as something bad. You see my point? I don't want to insult you, but in a certain way I have to say that you euphemise certain parts of her character. There a certain aspects of her which can be accurately called evil. As I stated before: Who would approve slaying a more or less innocent merchant? Or leaving a village to its certain doom? For example, Sten also dislikes staying in Redcliffe, but he'll approve if you recruit everyone possible for its defense.

 

Well, please tell me, which lines from Morrigan are funny (except the party banter)? Parts of her dialogue left me quite annoyed because she'll act really offended even if you disagree with her in the slightest. The romance dialogues are quite interesting, but clearly can get annoying too, in my opinion. Only part of the game where it's difficult in some way to find good answers, she'll react more or less angry and confusing anyway (in some way like discussing with your girlfriend    ). A good example for a funny dialogue with Leliana is the part where she asks you to join her in her bedroll for the first time. When you answer you'll stay up for writing in your diary, she asks if you need some help and makes a suggestion for an entry: "Dear Journal... Leliana has shown much affection for me. Even asked me to come to bed with her, but alas, subtlety is lost on me."

 

 

Still, I'm wondering if I should make a playthrough of Inquisition with a romanced Morrigan, but I'm not really thrilled to play it again soon. Even thinking of all these boring quests in the Hinterlands..   Origins is really great in this matter, makes you want to start again right after the end.

[line_genrou]

Not to offend but I really don't get the point of this discussion

I mean, I don't like Fenris but I won't go to his thread and say that I don't like him. Who cares

[Damdil]

Not to offend but I really don't get the point of this discussion

I mean, I don't like Fenris but I won't go to his thread and say that I don't like him. Who cares

 

Why? I'm quite curious why Morrigan gets a lot of approval by these guys here because I generally don't like the character Morrigan really much and after all there is nothing wrong with a discussion. I think there a lot of threads in the DA:I forum where a comment like yours would be more fitting, as there a more people there who concentrate on bashing each others opinion over and over again, constantly ignoring the arguments from others.   The discussion here is certainly more civil.

[Heidirs]

Yeah sure, maybe Morrigan's character developes more throughout the romance, but I dislike certain parts of her. First of all (BIG SPOILER COMING FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE END YET!!!!!!!!!!), the only reason she ever joined you is to get the essence of the archdemon. And she will leave immediatly after she gets it, or if you refuse to help her. So the romance with her has the "aftertaste" (I hope you can say it that way, I'm no native speaker) of being exploited. To me it seems that she just wants to seduce you from the very beginning and also even shortly before the final quest, so she gets your help. May be the reason why you can bed her so quickly. And although she may loves the Warden, she'll leave him for chasing her own goals. 

 

Second, I think she is really harsh and unfriendly. You can see this in nearly every dialogue with her and she also doesn't seem to get along with ANY of your party members. While Sten would be the most fitting towards her views of "power and survival", she constantly makes fun of him. But I won't say these dialogues aren't funny.   Just doesn't make her really sympathetic. Well and as I always play as the "good guy", she nearly disapproves anything that I want to do (you get alot of gifts for her so a high approval is still quite easy to achieve).

 

I haven't read the entire discussion you've had up to this point, so forgive me if I bring up some things you've already addressed. But I was wondering if you've played a non-romance playthrough with Morrigan where you just tried to be her friend. As her approval gets higher, she tends to soften, and all that hardness peels back. I found the scene (I can't remember if it's before or after Flemeth) when she admits she's come to view you as a sister (or brother, I suppose in the case of a male warden), which is something she never expected. And she's near tears in that scene. I found it very touching and an example where she truly does care about you and what happens to you.

 

As for the Old God Baby, yes, that may have been her only reason for coming with you. But if you become friends with her, she admits that she doesn't want to see you die and she'd much rather you go through the ritual for that reason. If you turn her down, your potential death is part of the reason she'd mad at you.

 

As for her interactions with other party members... I'd have to look up specific dialogue, but I do believe there are niceties exchanged. I firmly believe her and Alistair form a love/hate brother/sister kind of relationship with the way their banter ends up.

 

EDIT: One example I've found so far has to do with Dog. At the beginning of the game, she calls him a filthy smelly beast and she wants nothing to do with him, but later, if you keep checking on Dog, you find that she's been sneaking him treats. If I remember correctly, a lot of Morrigan's dialogue changes from the beginning of the game to the end where at first she'd cold and harsh but later softens. If you work at getting her approval up slowly you can see the transition. Basically, she's cold at first because she's living off the ideals her mother taught her. As she travels with the warden and learns new things and makes new friends (if you pursue that path with her) she changes.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Not to offend but I really don't get the point of this discussion

I mean, I don't like Fenris but I won't go to his thread and say that I don't like him. Who cares

 

Haha indeed, I don't usually talk about the characters I don't like and what I did to them in my playthroughs, alistair, fenris, dorian, anders, sebastian and vivienne only gets safe JUST because I need her as the Divine. 

 

I like Leliana she is okay and I keep her as a good friend of both the Warden and the Inquisitor but nowhere near as great as Morrigan in matters of character development nor romance, of course, in my point of view. Though, I tend to focus more in Morrigan and this thread for I have little interest to browse onto other characters threads since Morrigan is my main reason why I bought and continued with the franchise. 

[Terra_Ex]

Did you make a playthrough with an unromanced Morrigan? I'm wondering if there are major differences. From what I remember from Morrigan's dialogues in DA:I they weren't as harsh as in Origins, but in my opinion all dialogues got a little "plainer" in Inquisition in the sense of "more clean". I hope you unterstand, what I want to say."

As part of making MRP, I've played through all variations in Origins, yes. I've watched videos of the variations in all of her scenes (to my knowledge) in Inquisition, both romanced and unromanced, with and without OGB.

The word you're looking for is likely "generic" in that there are points of convergence/common dialogue between the different states of characters, something which a lot of us find... annoying. Like with Morrigan, she'll talk quite extensively on her family in DAI, which she obviously doesn't do when not romanced and with no child. BUT there are still instances where both variations of her character say pretty much the same thing, which is probably what you're getting at. This is also why we were complaining about how Morrigan always acts one specific way in the Well of Sorrows, we'd prefer if she were more reactive to past events, but that problem is caused by BioWare really. In the near future, me and Brock will probably be digging into this issue a lot more via some large posts so I'll have to ask that you wait for that to happen.
 

"On what do you refer with "juvenile" ? The fact, that I started both romances or the "asking for a kiss"-thingy? I thing it's noticeable, that Morrigan is already in for a kiss after the "How do I get on your good side?"-dialogue, which is only avaible on the road, while Leliana needs a more or less high approval for it and you need to sucessfully go through an automatically triggered dialogue from her. Edit: Though without mods it isn't wise to raise her approval quickly, as it messes up the personal quest."

Let's just say that there's a particular type of player whose interests seem to centre on sleeping with every character in the game, so to speak. The type that gets a little too upset that they aren't able to get with Leliana and Morrigan in Inquisition for example. Personally, I'm not a fan of sexing up the whole camp in Origins or any other similar type of approach involving the creation of a harem-esque setup so when I see allusions to that, that's where my mind goes straight away. The dialogue is good, I'll grant you, but it's not something I do in a serious playthrough. It's mainly a reference to my annoyance with those sorts of topics really.
 

While I agree that there should be some kind of time limit for main quest, it's interesting that you brought up the example of these elves. While Morrigan doesn't like the "teenie-romance" you can get them engaged in, she herself acts a bit this way. She'll giggle and finds it flattering you're asking so many questions about her and states "I like that you like it". (I acutually liked that part).

Precisely, in a roundabout way, you seem to be getting it - that she's contradicting herself on the whole "love" thing is another trait of hers that we find interesting, especially when you can tease her about it through dialogue- you're forcing her to deal with those feelings and she'll try to deny it & talk her way out of but fail (hence the dialogue battles/wordplay aspect to her romance). Then you get a flustered, uppity flounce-like response from her, but the important thing is the Warden gets the gears turning in her mind about the whole thing. It comes back to the whole two sides of Morrigan thing I mentioned earlier really, where you have to fight through the harsh exterior to get at the softer side and boy does she fight you every step of the way...

This is why I brought up how the Warden finding this "middle ground" type solution to problems like that represent a learning experience for her over the course of the game - so you can say her travels with the warden ultimately culminate in her realising that you don't necessarily have to just abandon everyone to their fates, sometimes there is a better way, which is likely why we see her putting her skill and wit to use far more effectively in the Orlesian court in DAI. A lot of her anger and remarks on things like the elf lovers are likely her inner frustrations projected onto others around her, so sure, that may well be the case here with those two elves. Getting Morrigan to come out of her shell is an key aspect of the whole thing. Which is why when Morrigan talks about her life with HoF in Inquisition Morri fans are so euphoric, because it's such a turnaround while still being incredibly true to the nature of their relationship. It retains the element that both challenge each other but are still very much in love. The fact that against all odds, she went on to be an excellent mother to her child and finally embrace her feelings is the coup de grâce to the whole relationship really.
 

Towards her viewpoint about power and survival: It's clearly influence by Flemeth, that's right. But she makes clear that she agrees with them. For example, if she says "power has meaning and survival has meaning" you can state that she doesn't have to live this way anymore. But Morrigan will simply shrug of every approach like this. Even when she admits her love for the Warden, she still sees it as something bad. You see my point?

I feel I mostly covered this statement in the above section, but just a few additional little points. I understand what you're saying however this is the entire point of her romance and it is why intertwining her romance with DAO's major plot arc and Morrigan's continuing story works so well. This is the drama aspect, which adds to the whole setup. The whole idea of it is that you are breaking down the walls over a period of time - stating "you don't have to live this way anymore" once just doesn't cut it with Morrigan - her resolve is too strong, it takes persistence - pretty much the entire game, a DLC and a sequel for you to finally see the end result. That's kind of the point of her romance arc, hence why she says that even she herself is surprised that she's as happy as she is in Inquisition. The fact that she's come to the point where she can express that is a pretty big deal. In other words her... "emotional journey" let's say, starts in DAO but you don't see the final result of her change until DAI, which adds a sense of gravitas and scale to the whole thing.

If you're romancing Morrigan, you're in it for the long haul, real changes take time. Don't get me wrong, Morrigan says and does some things that annoy us here in the Morri thread A LOT, but from DAO>DAI, Morrigan and Leliana are somewhat inverted. Morrigan grows more compassionate while Leliana backslides and can follow a darker path. That's something I'm going to talk about in more detail in the future though so I'll leave that thought there for now.

If you want a smaller, simpler applied example of Morrigan in action - look at how she treats Dog (sorry Heidirs, I'm stealing your idea, a damn good example that I hadn't even thought of before btw). She calls him names and says she hates him, complains about him constantly. And then, look how she behaves towards him in Witch Hunt. It's much the same with her other interactions - one side is a front, the other is her true feelings and reading between the lines gets you the truth. There are of course little hints along the way as well. You will notice this same softening when she speaks to Alistair in DAI as well.
 

As I stated before: Who would approve slaying a more or less innocent merchant? Or leaving a village to its certain doom?

I don't recall the exact details of the merchant. Is this the guy that was trying to exploit people in Lothering by overcharging them or something? I've already told you why she'd elect to sacrifice a village for the greater good.
 

Well, please tell me, which lines from Morrigan are funny (except the party banter)? Parts of her dialogue left me quite annoyed because she'll act really offended even if you disagree with her in the slightest. The romance dialogues are quite interesting, but clearly can get annoying too, in my opinion. Only part of the game where it's difficult in some way to find good answers, she'll react more or less angry and confusing anyway (in some way like discussing with your girlfriend ).

Well, humour is subjective, I'm not going to pick out specific quotes, I'll just go from memory and pick out a few examples. For me, I personally enjoy watching her reactions after she makes some aggrandising statement (like love is weakness, power is great or something) and then you point out nonchalantly specifically how she's wrong and she's forced to back down in her own, unique way. There are many instances like that in her dialogue.

Or how about when she gives you her ring and you can turn the situation on around on her and she becomes extremely flustered over the whole thing, again she loses the war of words, throws up her hands as says "look, do you want the ring or not?". The way you can tease her over stuff like that is great simply because that side is hidden for so much of the game, it makes those interactions all the more important. It's her reactions and lines in those circumstances that really amuse me and underline the relationship.

I also enjoy her sarcasm and wit, displayed frequently throughout the game, not just in banters, like how she remarks that that that the darkspawn will be deeply impressed that you stopped to help every last villager in Lothering, hinting that you are wasting your time with minor trifles when there are bigger fish to fry.

Or when she scoffs at the idea of marriage, of living some quaint life somewhere with a family, yet ironically, she sort of ends up doing just that, in her own unique way of course.

Implying Alistair is dumber that than Mabari hound also comes to mind as early standout - “We now have a dog and Alistair is still the dumbest one in the party.” And there's many more across the game, I'm not gonna list them all or we'd be here all day, suffice it to say if you enjoy sarcasm, dry humour and a challenging companion that pokes fun at tropes in RPGs, Morrigan is your go-to girl.
 

Why? I'm quite curious why Morrigan gets a lot of approval by these guys here because I generally don't like the character Morrigan really much and after all there is nothing wrong with a discussion. I think there a lot of threads in the DA:I forum where a comment like yours would be more fitting, as there a more people there who concentrate on bashing each others opinion over and over again, constantly ignoring the arguments from others. The discussion here is certainly more civil.

True, but line_genrou does have a point (I was thinking the same myself). While the Morrigan thread is a bit of an outlier on BSN in that we do things a bit differently over here, there is only so much we can say on the matter. If something "clicks" for us but doesn't for you, we can try to explain it, but there is an end point to the discussion and I feel that it's been reached for now. Nevertheless, I hope you enjoyed our discussion.

[springacres]

Not to offend but I really don't get the point of this discussion

I mean, I don't like Fenris but I won't go to his thread and say that I don't like him. Who cares

There is nothing wrong with a good discussion.  It's sometimes helpful just to lurk and read through threads to see why other people feel differently about certain characters than you do.  I for one found it kind of difficult to see why anyone would spare Loghain until I started reading some of the comments in his threads.  I went from thinking I would only be able to spare him in my planned super-mean M!Aeducan playthrough to realizing I don't actually want to wait that long.  My F!Brosca and my M!Cousland both might end up sparing him - one political animal, one ex-Carta thug who is cynical enough to want to turn Loghain's abilities to her own advantage.  Basically, it's always good to remind yourself that there are people who disagree with you.

[Heidirs]

Precisely, in a roundabout way, you seem to be getting it - that she's contradicting herself on the whole "love" thing is another trait of hers that we find interesting, especially when you can tease her about it through dialogue- you're forcing her to deal with those feelings and she'll try to deny it & talk her way out of but fail (hence the dialogue battles/wordplay aspect to her romance). Then you get a flustered, uppity flounce-like response from her, but the important thing is the Warden gets the gears turning in her mind about the whole thing. It comes back to the whole two sides of Morrigan thing I mentioned earlier really, where you have to fight through the harsh exterior to get at the softer side and boy does she fight you every step of the way...

This is why I brought up how the Warden finding this "middle ground" type solution to problems like that represent a learning experience for her over the course of the game - so you can say her travels with the warden ultimately culminate in her realising that you don't necessarily have to just abandon everyone to their fates, sometimes there is a better way, which is likely why we see her putting her skill and wit to use far more effectively in the Orlesian court in DAI. A lot of her anger and remarks on things like the elf lovers are likely her inner frustrations projected onto others around her, so sure, that may well be the case here with those two elves. Getting Morrigan to come out of her shell is an key aspect of the whole thing. Which is why when Morrigan talks about her life with HoF in Inquisition Morri fans are so euphoric, because it's such a turnaround while still being incredibly true to the nature of their relationship. It retains the element that both challenge each other but are still very much in love. The fact that against all odds, she went on to be an excellent mother to her child and finally embrace her feelings is the coup de grâce to the whole relationship really.
 
The whole idea of it is that you are breaking down the walls over a period of time - stating "you don't have to live this way anymore" once just doesn't cut it with Morrigan - her resolve is too strong, it takes persistence - pretty much the entire game, a DLC and a sequel for you to finally see the end result.

 

This, so much, is Morrigan. So many instances through Origins, she says one thing to cover up the fact that she feels another way. She'll say that love is meaningless and hopeless - a childish dream - when she really wishes to experience it (or is experiencing it, if you romance her). She'll be snippy with other characters and come across as cruel when really, their words have hurt her, and she's trying not to let it show.

 

Morrigan has one way she's been raised to live - the way her mother has taught. And she tries to live that way - the side she tries to make sure everyone sees. When in reality, she questions her teachings and wishes for more - the side she keeps hidden and denies, even to herself.

[Damdil]

I haven't read the entire discussion you've had up to this point, so forgive me if I bring up some things you've already addressed. But I was wondering if you've played a non-romance playthrough with Morrigan where you just tried to be her friend. As her approval gets higher, she tends to soften, and all that hardness peels back. I found the scene (I can't remember if it's before or after Flemeth) when she admits she's come to view you as a sister (or brother, I suppose in the case of a male warden), which is something she never expected. And she's near tears in that scene. I found it very touching and an example where she truly does care about you and what happens to you.

 

As for the Old God Baby, yes, that may have been her only reason for coming with you. But if you become friends with her, she admits that she doesn't want to see you die and she'd much rather you go through the ritual for that reason. If you turn her down, your potential death is part of the reason she'd mad at you.

 

As for her interactions with other party members... I'd have to look up specific dialogue, but I do believe there are niceties exchanged. I firmly believe her and Alistair form a love/hate brother/sister kind of relationship with the way their banter ends up.

 

EDIT: One example I've found so far has to do with Dog. At the beginning of the game, she calls him a filthy smelly beast and she wants nothing to do with him, but later, if you keep checking on Dog, you find that she's been sneaking him treats. If I remember correctly, a lot of Morrigan's dialogue changes from the beginning of the game to the end where at first she'd cold and harsh but later softens. If you work at getting her approval up slowly you can see the transition. Basically, she's cold at first because she's living off the ideals her mother taught her. As she travels with the warden and learns new things and makes new friends (if you pursue that path with her) she changes.

I think the dialogue you mean triggers also after the romance is ended. When her approval as 80-90+ (friendly) she'll remark how she never knew that friendship would be possible between men and women. While she is thankful for this experience, I don't remember any "brother"-like dialogue or any tears. I'm quite sure, there is no friendly banter between Alistair and Morrigan. Only exception is a move from Alistair (not Morrigan) where he says, her nose doesn't look like her mother's while he was teasing her with it before. While after some time it maybe isn't pure hate, they surely don't like each other well.

 

Regarding the ritual: She says that nobody has to die, but not that she doesn't want you to die. But maybe she says that to a romanced Warden.

 

There is nothing wrong with a good discussion.  It's sometimes helpful just to lurk and read through threads to see why other people feel differently about certain characters than you do.  I for one found it kind of difficult to see why anyone would spare Loghain until I started reading some of the comments in his threads.  I went from thinking I would only be able to spare him in my planned super-mean M!Aeducan playthrough to realizing I don't actually want to wait that long.  My F!Brosca and my M!Cousland both might end up sparing him - one political animal, one ex-Carta thug who is cynical enough to want to turn Loghain's abilities to her own advantage.  Basically, it's always good to remind yourself that there are people who disagree with you.

Yes, why not discuss? As long everybody is objective, exchange of views is really nothing bad. I think Loghain is a interesting character, he's some sort of mislead hero, who is too stubborn for seeing his mistake. Also nice idea that he's introduced as your archenemy, while he has the history of a hero.

 

@Terra_Ex:

 

 

 

The word you're looking for is likely "generic" in that there are points of convergence/common dialogue between the different states of characters, something which a lot of us find... annoying. Like with Morrigan, she'll talk quite extensively on her family in DAI, which she obviously doesn't do when not romanced and with no child. BUT there are still instances where both variations of her character say pretty much the same thing, which is probably what you're getting at. This is also why we were complaining about how Morrigan always acts one specific way in the Well of Sorrows, we'd prefer if she were more reactive to past events, but that problem is caused by BioWare really. In the near future, me and Brock will probably be digging into this issue a lot more via some large posts so I'll have to ask that you wait for that to happen.

Let's just say that there's a particular type of player whose interests seem to centre on sleeping with every character in the game, so to speak. The type that gets a little too upset that they aren't able to get with Leliana and Morrigan in Inquisition for example. Personally, I'm not a fan of sexing up the whole camp in Origins or any other similar type of approach involving the creation of a harem-esque setup so when I see allusions to that, that's where my mind goes straight away. The dialogue is good, I'll grant you, but it's not something I do in a serious playthrough. It's mainly a reference to my annoyance with those sorts of topics really.

 

I can't really refer to the Morrigan dialogue in DA:I, I can only say that I don't remember that she says something really remarkable. In my opinion quite a lot of dialogues in Inquisition where a little "dull". It's quite boring to look over your Inquisitor's shoulder all the time, while the other person stands there in stereotypical pose with no special facial expression. 

 

Sorry for saying that but: Lol, no. I think in DA:O it's somehow authentic that both women in the party (except Wynne, it seems she likes Alistair  ) are interested in the Warden and he has to choose. Would probably be this way if the storyline is in a book or a movie. But no, I don't have a need to have a virtual harem.    Regarding this, these ninja romance moves are a little annoying.

 

Concerning the romance options in Inquisition, I already wrote in that big thread that Cassandra is a solid romance option for males. I think it's somehow stupid though that after the sex scene, the romance is more or less "over". So nothing really happens after that. The whole discussion there is somehow ridicolous, as there is a whole lot of guys wanting more sex scenes and are raging that Cassandra isn't attractive or something, so I didn't participate in this particular discussion anymore, it's really point less. More sex scenes, really? These scenes are hardly anyhow erotic and unvoluntary funny and stiff. 

 

That Leliana and Morrigan aren't romance options for the Inquisitor is the better idea in my opinion. Really disappointing was the fact that Hawke makes a quite long appearance, but the Warden only gets a text message. Towards Leliana's character developing: It's quite fitting regarding her job and that the events in Inquisition are some years after Origins. 

 

 

I'll maybe answer to the rest of your post later, but I can say that our discussion was interesting and again I must say that I have to thank you for putting so much effort in your posts. Also I didn't write so much in English for quite a long time. 

[Terra_Ex]

...Would probably be this way if the storyline is in a book or a movie.

Ah, when you describe it that way, sure, that makes a lot more sense now and I can understand why you'd want to do that. The way you worded it originally came off quite differently to me.
 

Concerning the romance options in Inquisition, I already wrote in that big thread that Cassandra is a solid romance option for males. I think it's somehow stupid though that after the sex scene, the romance is more or less "over". So nothing really happens after that. The whole discussion there is somehow ridicolous, as there is a whole lot of guys wanting more sex scenes and are raging that Cassandra isn't attractive or something, so I didn't participate in this particular discussion anymore, it's really point less. More sex scenes, really? These scenes are hardly anyhow erotic and unvoluntary funny and stiff.

That Leliana and Morrigan aren't romance options for the Inquisitor is the better idea in my opinion. Really disappointing was the fact that Hawke makes a quite long appearance, but the Warden only gets a text message. Towards Leliana's character developing: It's quite fitting regarding her job and that the events in Inquisition are some years after Origins.

I agree with all these points, I too dislike romances where sex is the goalpost or end-state. To the bolded section, sure, I'm also quite displeased that that Warden gets no screen time as well, believe me. That they had 3 of the DAO LIs present in Skyhold and chose not bring him back was a severe waste imo, especially considering fan reaction when we thought that HoF was in that trailer alongside Hawke, but I'll get to dissecting that in a future post that goes far beyond just the fan service aspects. I tackled a lot of the points you're bringing up with regards to Inquisition's handling of returning characters, etc in my big post a few pages back so you can read that if you want my initial breakdown on the issue, it is quite a long read though.

Me and Brock (a fellow Morrigan... devotee) have been having a rather large discussion about many aspects of DA and our discusion has brought up a lot of new talking points on both sides so we'll likely bring that stuff into the thread in the future for the other posters/lurkers here to ruminate on, but I am waiting on his post before heaping more material onto the pile.

Anyway, catching up on some (but not all) older posts:
 

As I recall, back at Skyhold, Morrigan makes mention how people at court though Kieran was just some quiet, well spoken lad, maybe an heir to some distant family.

I'd imagine she wouldn't make it a very well known fact, if only because (prior to her going full stupid at the Well) she seems to be really protective of Kieran and his safety. So all the politicking in Orlais maybe would expose Kieran as a vulnerability if somebody was trying to get at Morrigan.

Indeed, I had similar thoughts, though I was curious on the specifics of the whole setup, presumably Morrigan provides for him and so even if they were denying their relationship, there would be a potential weak link to exploit there.
 

I always thought it would have been awesome if she had twins.

Actually that could have been really clever and very much in keeping with her often getting more than she bargained for. I can see Morrigan's face now - "oh, ****" and no doubt HoF would have ultimately got an earful on the subject down the line.
 

Cynically, Morrigan having a daughter would have probably played out exactly the same as what we got with Kieran. I suppose they could have had it feel a bit more personal for Morrigan, since she'd likely see a bit of herself in any potential daughter.

Although I guess if she had a daughter, that would have been more fuel to the fire of the whole Andraste = Flemeth theory- being that maybe Andraste was the original OGB and maybe had Mythal's soul which then got passed on to Flemeth, since one of Andraste's daughters only had daughters and Flemeth only had daughters.

Agreed, I'd say that the part where she's emphasising that neither she nor her child "belong" to Flemeth in particular would have struck closer to home for her because of the mirror image/history repeating itself situation they'd have going on there. It would be interesting to see if her daughter had inherited the yellow eyes trait though. I'm not sure how HoF would cope with two Morrigan's in his life though...

As for the theory, well, I suppose that's laid to rest now.
 

Also, I'm curious, what did you all decide to do with Morrigan at the Well? At first, I was very protective of her and had no issue sacrificing my inquisitor to the consequences so Morrigan can be safe. But now, I'm thinking she can certainly use that power better than I can and possibly learn a lot from it. Might be worth the risk?

I said to Brock recently that I wouldn't put it past Bioware to bring HoF back in some capacity but you'd need Dragon-Morri to save him...
Thematically, I really like the idea of Morrigan gaining the ability to shift to dragon form, but I do have problems with how she got there, specifically the Well of Sorrows aspect of things (which I went into detail on a few pages back). For now, I'll stick with non-drinking Morri, but I'm not adverse to adjusting that choice. I'd like to think that the writers will leave her alone now, just simply because of the potential compromises they have to make when dragging old characters back - constantly explaining away why HoF is never around for example makes all the DAO romances artificial if it repeatedly occurs. That coupled with their reluctance to allow past events/actions/romances to bleed into larger plot points makes me concerned that they'll just handle any future plotline in a one-size-fits-all manner, which wouldn't be particularly appealing to me. This too I hope to discuss into in more depth in a future post, but I did already hit the key points a few pages back.
 

I also recall that someone was indeed aiming to get at Morrigan, her character codex was a letter between two nobles, one woman (I think) sent three people to investigate her and they all "disappeared" so, someone was indeed trying something against Morrigan. It also seems that it doesn't take much to know how to play "The Orlesian Game" afterall, Leliana says she has played the Orlesian game for a long time and yet Morrigan managed to quite quickly to rise up all the way to be advisor to the Empress, kept some key council of heralds members in her pocket and dealt with anyone who was sent to investigate her while keeping everyone oblivious of the fact that she has a son and that son's father is the Hero of Ferelden, aaaand that he has the essence of an old God, she does know how to sail through the Orlesian court sharks, at least just for the time that she needed.

You know, after the amount of time and posts me, Brock & co dedicated to posting about Morrigan I was half-expecting a cameo of a couple of Morri-obsessives who chatter on endlessly about her and then suddenly go missing in mysterious circumstances...

To the point though, Morrigan in Orlais is simultaneously an extension/evolution of and callback to how Flemeth had her partake in killing the templars that hunted them in Kocari Wilds as bait, only this time, she's the one setting the trap- "A little girl to scream and run and lure the templars deeper into the Wilds and to their doom.", but this time the game is one of words and subtlety. She'd be in her element there, I'd bet. Do the people at court even know she's a shapeshifter, how easy it would be for her to spy and keep tabs on her enemies in court. Those who opposed her or pried too closely would find their fortunes in the "Game" to be reversed in short order; a dark raven perched innocently upon a windowledge or golden-eyed feline sleeping lazily upon a chair would attract little attention as the various conspirators secret whispers unknowingly found their way to her ear.

I'd expect she'd find the idea of someone crossing her in that setup to be an amusing game, to her it'd be fun to play in the Orlesian court, to trifle with the many fools adrift around her and yet knowingly be one step ahead the whole time. And yet, there is also a safety in it, to be surrounded by the mundane, she can blend in and hide from her mother. It would also explain aspects of her softening as she learns how to turn the situation to her advantage without necessarily having to eliminate her opponents in the traditional sense. Plus she probably also enjoyed aspects of life there, having been denied them by Flemeth, which comes back to the golden mirror thing as well, where, in Orlais and free of her mother, she has an opportunity to explore some of the things she was denied as a child, like some of the things Leliana talked about with her- finery, gowns (with her own unique flair of course), general opulence (which is also a nod to how Leliana and Morrigan's roles are flipped for DAI). Makes me curious on the whole timeline of events too with regards to romanced HoF leaving on his quest, did they stop by Orlais first, or has he sneaked back to visit her and his son at any time since he left on his quest?

As an aside to this though, this idea of Morrigan hunting/preying on others within the Orlesian court reminded me of something: someone found a dev note/quote in the DAI files, parts of this text are apparently in the DAI files (I have not verified this myself but I may do so later):
EDIT: It is indeed present in the game files, word for word.
http://www.faerie-wo...athgoddess.html

which is a description of "The Morrigan, Celtic Goddess of Death" who is associated with ravens and reading some of that, it could indeed be some of the inspiration for her character/arc beyond just visuals and maybe future "godhood" plotline, particularly so if it is indeed in the game files. Her choker/necklace that she wears could be a nod to that too (pic shamelessly swiped from google images search for Morrigan. "a cloudy mirror" (both the literal and metaphorical interpretation; mirror image/reflection, which itself could be a sort of play on what Morrigan sees when she looks into a mirror - herself, or her mother?) and pathways certainly have a parallel in the DA universe too...

Or maybe I've just had too much to drink. All this talk of Morrigan in Orlais has also got me thinking on Morrigan and mirrors, but I'll leave that for a future post.

Edit: minor edits because I meant to respond to something and completely forgot about it

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 03 mars 2015 - 12:50 .

[springacres]

As an aside to this though, this idea of Morrigan hunting/preying on others within the Orlesian reminded me of something: someone found a dev note/quote in the DAI files, parts of this text are apparently in the DAI files (I have not verified this myself but I may do so later):

http://www.faerie-wo...athgoddess.html

which is a description of "The Morrigan, Celtic Goddess of Death" who is associated with ravens and reading some of that, it could indeed be some of the inspiration for her character/arc beyond just visuals and maybe future "godhood" plotline, particularly so if it is indeed in the game files. Her choker/necklace that she wears could be a nod to that too (pic shamelessly swiped from google images search for Morrigan. Cloudy mirrors and pathways certainly have a parallel in the DA universe too...

Or maybe I've just had too much to drink. All this talk of Morrigan in Orlais has also got me thinking on Morrigan and mirrors, but I'll leave that for a future post.

-serious myth nerd here-

 

The first time I saw her in-game, I immediately wondered if that was actually the inspiration.  The Celtic goddess Morrigan is associated with ravens, death, battle, and in some legends shapeshifting.  Considering DA Morrigan's character design and outfit (black hair, yellow eyes, interest in pretty mirrors and jewelry which could be read as mirroring a raven's interest in shiny things, plus the black feathers on one shoulder of her outfit) I would be surprised if the Celtic goddess WASN'T somehow an inspiration.

[Terra_Ex]

-serious myth nerd here-
 
The first time I saw her in-game, I immediately wondered if that was actually the inspiration.  The Celtic goddess Morrigan is associated with ravens, death, battle, and in some legends shapeshifting.  Considering DA Morrigan's character design and outfit (black hair, yellow eyes, interest in pretty mirrors and jewelry which could be read as mirroring a raven's interest in shiny things, plus the black feathers on one shoulder of her outfit) I would be surprised if the Celtic goddess WASN'T somehow an inspiration.

Agreed, the text is indeed in the game files, there's also something about locating Flemeth's hut (which I don't recall featuring in DAI) so I wonder if they were going to do something more with it (maybe via the Fade sequence) and it got cut.

[springacres]

Interesting!  (and now I wish I had a copy of Windows so I could play Inquisition... but I'm on a Mac and on a college student's budget, so I'll probably be waiting awhile.)

[Damdil]

Ah, when you describe it that way, sure, that makes a lot more sense now and I can understand why you'd want to do that. The way you worded it originally came off quite differently to me.
 

I agree with all these points, I too dislike romances where sex is the goalpost or end-state. To the bolded section, sure, I'm also quite displeased that that Warden gets no screen time as well, believe me. That they had 3 of the DAO LIs present in Skyhold and chose not bring him back was a severe waste imo, especially considering fan reaction when we thought that HoF was in that trailer alongside Hawke, but I'll get to dissecting that in a future post that goes far beyond just the fan service aspects. I tackled a lot of the points you're bringing up with regards to Inquisition's handling of returning characters, etc in my big post a few pages back so you can read that if you want my initial breakdown on the issue, it is quite a long read though.

Me and Brock (a fellow Morrigan... devotee) have been having a rather large discussion about many aspects of DA and our discusion has brought up a lot of new talking points on both sides so we'll likely bring that stuff into the thread in the future for the other posters/lurkers here to ruminate on, but I am waiting on his post before heaping more material onto the pile.
 

 

Yes, I thought you misunderstood my point, maybe I formulated it inaccurate. Don't get me wrong, for example I dislike that in Mass Effect 3 (and 2) the main character gets hit on by nearly every party member. Feels a little unauthentic. For me, in Origins it seemed the most comprehensible way that the Warden is somehow interested in Morrigan (she greets him with "handsome lad" or something this way) and eventually has to choose after Leliana joins the party and he gets to know both of them better.

 

I think it was an interesting approach that the Josephine romance in Inquisition only contents cuddling&kissy-scenes. It does well enough, although there are quite a lot people complaining she lacks a sex scene. These discussions are all somehow funny because it's such a minor thing to talk about, especially concerning the fact that Inquisition as greater flaws.   Honestly, I think after Inquisition we'll probably never get a quality game like Origins in the DA-Universe again. I wanted to replay it some time ago, but I stopped in The Western Approach at some point. I didn't want to skip all these quests, but it's just boring. What's the point in buying a game and then skipping half its content? Also, after playing as a warrior during the first playthrough, using a ranged rogue was sooo dull. Seriously, gameplay-wise even DA: II was far better. I was really hoping for  something like "DA: Origins 2.0".

 

Hopefully they integrate the Warden in some way again. I don't know if I remember it correctly, but I think Leliana mentions he would return to her after he's done with something, so in a future expansion pack (more likely a bunch of overpriced DLCs) he could make an apperance. If it was the other way around (she'll go to him) it would be a poor excuse for leaving the Warden to rest.

 

Some other thought towards the way how Lelianna changes in Inquistion: Leliana becomes more mellow after she gets used to the Inquisitor. It's somehow ironical she complains that the Inquisitor didn't talk to her in Haven (I completely forgot it the second time) while she's not too friendly if he does. When together with her friend Josephine she also seems to be more like in Origins. Towards the Warden she probably has a different position as he was part of her vision. I'll have a closer look at Morrigan during my next playthrough, although I'm not to thrilled starting Inquisition again. If I remember correctly, Bioware also missed the chance to include some interesting dialogue between them both.

 

 

Interesting!  (and now I wish I had a copy of Windows so I could play Inquisition... but I'm on a Mac and on a college student's budget, so I'll probably be waiting awhile.)

 

And apple products are known for being cheap?  Lucky me, as a university student in Germany I get a discount for some Microsoft products and studying costs 250€ every semester. In the US I heard you got to pay a fortune for studying. 

 

Well, I don't want to destory your pleasant anticipation, but as a great fan of Origins I was disappointed by Inquisition.

[springacres]

And apple products are known for being cheap?  Lucky me, as a university student in Germany I get a discount for some Microsoft products and studying costs 250€ every semester. In the US I heard you got to pay a fortune for studying. 

 

Well, I don't want to destory your pleasant anticipation, but as a great fan of Origins I was disappointed by Inquisition.

True, but Macs are known for being reliable workhorses (my previous one lasted 5 years and might have lasted longer if the screen hadn't died on me).  And yes, in the US you do have to pay a small fortune.  I'm only a part time student and still wouldn't manage without financial aid.

 

(Sorry for sidetracking, I tend to do that a lot.)

Modifié par springacres, 04 mars 2015 - 01:37 .

[Ash Wind]

Time to respond to the whole "Big Bad Morri" thing...
 

Since you keep bringing up bedding Morrigan, putting aside the fact that it takes two to tango, Morrigan's romance has, to my recollection 3 separate entry points, only one of which is based around sex, with the others it is entirely possible to get to the DR without sleeping with her at all-
-"'Tis cold in my tent", I'm sure you're aware of this one
-Golden Mirror, a gift item you can happen upon after hearing her story on the matter can allow you to enter a romance
-After slaying Flemeth, if you are not in a romance with her, she will broach the subject in a much more heartfelt manner that is more inline with where her character development leads at that late stage of the game. This path is probably the most satisfying imo.

 

Ashwind:

Yes, she will bed you early on: I have a playthrough where she will proposition you right after you give her the First grimoire. But at that point, she's not romanced, she's looking for a fu.... er I mean, sexual intercourse buddy. As previously stated, she has certain base desires, and sees the Warden as the best option here. She is in no way, shape or form in a romance with the Warden. She wants a warm body on a cold night and its either the Warden or Sten... and we all know how that turns out lol.

 

As for the Witch Hunt stuff you mentioned earlier (not quoting you as I already have too many quotes), part of the reason that it exists was to correct the fact that there is zero resolution for players that romanced her in Origins within the main campaign itself, (and she also didn't send HoF a letter in Awakening) which comes back to the cut content aspects of the DR. Was it short? Sure, but it also affords numerous roleplay opportunities throughout the module to deepen the romance through interactions with Ariane, Dog and so on, and that's more than any of the other romances got. A romance arc is not just the sum total of interactions between two parties, a good one will involve other factors/parties and play off of them. WH did this when this Ariane brings up the Warden's habit of playing with Morrigan's ring as well as several other places.
 

Ashwind:

Witch Hunt cannot be judged on its content, per se. It was... I hesitate to use the term it was to correct a mistake, but to give resolution to the Morrigan Romancer. I liked Finn and Ariane actually, and would have much rather had Ariane in DAI than Sera. As I have previsously stated, Morrigan's actions at the end of DAO are just, forced and seemingly more writer's trap than story progression. She has to leave, no matter what... no reason is given, its just because, you know! Then whenever in the timeline in which WH occurs, her absolute need for complete and total separation from the Warden is evicierated and its, lets get married and raise our OGB. 

 

Surface level analysis yet again. You'll understand Morrigan a lot better if you have/had a similar personality to her irl, or know someone who does. This really comes down to being yet another veiled variation on the "I don't like Morrigan because she's mean, I like Leliana because she's nice" theme and I can't even begin to tell you how wrong that is and how transparent it is. Every point you make is coloured by this bias, intentionally or not.

Morrigan operates primarily on two levels - the person she thinks she needs to be, influenced mostly by Flemeth and the other side of her, which is at odds with the first, is the side where she allows her feelings and heart to take hold. The second has largely reconciled itself with the first when DAI begins, through HoF/Kieran, life at the Orlesian court and of course the developments with Flemeth during Origins as well as the passage of time, but she still keeps her feelings to herself by and large. This isn't just theory anymore, it is factually supported and played upon by DAI's content. The takeaway being, as has always been the case, only those who are genuinely close to her get to see that side, so HoF/Kieran for example, but you (as the inquisitor) can also see it shine through the cracks if they come up in conversation. You also see hints of it as early as DA:O in Wynne's second conversation with the Warden about Morrigan, where she's says something to the effect of that she sometimes catches Morrigan smiling fondly while looking at the Warden.

With regards Morrigan's barbed words, again a lot of us like Morrigan precisely because she is a challenging character, both as a companion and as HoF's lover, we don't need or desire a squad of yes men (or yes women) that exist in perfect harmony and deference to the player's will, that's boring, tedious and overdone. It should come as little surprise to you that those of us who frequent the Morri thread also employ sarcastic barbs, dry humour and irony on a regular basis. Morrigan's attitude and demeanour are the result of her upbringing and environment. You witness the internal struggle that takes place within her at several points in DAO and witness the end result in DAI.

And lastly - why does it matter that she doesn't get along with everyone? I personally loved the two instances that Wynne challenges you on your relationship with Morrigan, the first, well it's not far removed from the arguments you're making right now, truth be told. So, even here, Morrigan's inability to gel with the rest of the team brings fresh perspective and more flavour to the romance and by extension her character - I love the implication that Alistair and Leliana are befuddled as to why the HoF likes Morrigan so much, which again plays off HoF's friendship with Alistair. Think about how the fact that Morrigan and the Warden are lovers affects the best-buddies thing that HoF has going on with Alistair, who hates her.

 

Ashwind:

This is one thing I've never understood from posters who dislike Morrigan. Does she have a sharp tongue? Aboslutely, its one of her endearing qualities. And yet, when other's tear into her, its OK. Alistair hates her from the onset, but she's supposed to kiss his former templar ass, and not respond? Leliana gives barbs as well as she gets. Wynn is a judgemental, lecturing annoyance who talks down to her... AND is literally her polar opposite, its only natural that they would be in conflict with one another... but Morri is just supposed to take her BS because she's grandmotherly? Sten and Shale also insult her, but she should just say, hehehe, thank you. This is NOT something my Witch of the Wilds would tolerate!!

 

And as I'm listing just a few examples off the top of my head, you should be noticing that Morrigan's romance is considerably more far-reaching than you seem to think it is, here's my warden's complete story pertaining to Morrigan from DAO through WH:

-Post-DAO, the Warden needs some consoling via his good friend Alistair, but wait, Alistair hates Morrigan, so what does he have to say - "There, there buddy, I totally feel for you. I'm *REALLY* sorry that damn bitc-Uh, I mean, that nice 'Witch' Morrigan ran off but there's no need to cry about it." That leads into HoF striking out to find Morrigan but very quickly being required to deal with the situation in Amarathine, leading into...
-Awakening- My HoF shows up, he's a little annoyed at the whole situation because he wants to find Morrigan and get some answers, but duty calls. But that desire, I allow it to colour HoF's actions in Awakening, unlike in DAO, I have him take direct, affirmative and definitive action on things with a view to ending the whole thing as quickly and effectively as possible. This ultimately isn't possible because the whole situation is bigger than my HoF anticipated and thus takes him longer to bring a close to the whole thing. When everything is wrapped up, he's made some hard choices, stepped on some people to bring a close to the whole thing and is ultimately ready to go back to his own personal quest.
-WH - after a unsuccessful search for Morri, eventually a lead is discovered, and it carries on from there.

 

Ashwind:

Mine is similar, and yet different. At the end of DAO, my Warden thanks Morrigan for all she has done and accepts that she is off. Saying she is dead too him his too strong, but he is accepting of the fact that he will not see her again, or... his child... (unless they threaten the world, in which case he would have been first on the scene). He goes to Amaranthine with a determination to make a difference. As usual, he makes non-warden-esque decisions, because he has not only has a 6th sense, but a 7th, 8th and 9th sense. Recruits his family's mortal enemy, Nathaniel Howe; hires the Dark Wolf; kills most of the nobles of Amaranthine, spares the Architect; and chooses to save Amaranthine. After the battle for Amaranthine, he lets the Disciple that helped him live (how perfect is it that he becomes the batman of Amarathine???).

 

After the chaos of Awakening is when my Warden feels, through the ring he's never removed, Morrigan's sorrow and regret. That is what leads him on his quest to find her in WH, and ultimately to go through the Eluvian with her.

 

The game doesn't necessarily support or recognise a lot of these things, but I'm able to RP my increasingly annoyed HoF over the course of the campaigns pretty effectively, adding a different spin to the expansion content before he is able to reach his end goal by the end, and thankfully Bioware tossed in quite a lot of Morri-romance relevant stuff in WH. So tell me, when Leliana left your HoF at the end of Origins, how did that factor into your playthrough of the expansion?
 

From personal experience working on her dialog files, I'd have to disagree, there's no less than any other party member, probably more if you count restored content. Can you back up these claims that Leliana has more dialogue, understanding that you'll then have to go on to demonstrate that quantity > quality?
 

Unsurprisingly, given that this is the Morrigan thread, I could not disagree more. I feel that having the HoF coax out the hidden facets of Morrigan's personality and exposing that side of her to the real world elicited extensive personal growth in her from DAO-DAI. That alone eclipses anything I've seen from Leliana, so no, I do not agree that Leliana's romantic arc is more fun nor more rewarding than Morrigan's, quite the opposite in fact. Furthermore I reject the notion that Leliana is a more sympathetic character, at least once you look beyond the surface level. When you take into account how Morrigan was raised, the implications of what you see with her interactions with Flemeth in the fade (in Origins) you have an equally tragic character. Add to this how Flemeth wanted her to behave around men, the fact that she has no friends and is essentially alone in the world at that point with relatively poor social skills. While Morrigan puts on airs about this, you can see glimpses through conversations that in some ways she is still just a confused little girl, especially when measured against her mother. Like with the Cousland Origin, one can also look at how Morrigan was sent off with the wardens to be a form of abandonment, then later compounded into losing the only family she had when she learns of Flemeth's plans for her and being forced to take action.

As for Leliana being more funny, yeah, I again don't see it. I'll take the sarcastic barbs and the wordplay battles that HoF can have with Morrigan over the bard's tales, thanks. And hell, I like Leliana, if she was in any other game, I'd likely go for her, but she is no Morrigan, I'm afraid.

 

Ashwind:

Morrigan is not in DA to provide comic relief. She has a story arch and a potential impact on the PC. In DAO, Oghren is the comic relief. Not that she doesn't have some awesome lines. The banter with Zevran still sticks out to me: Zevran: ...Morrigan, how is it we have not made love? Morrigan: What's the point, I would rather stab you in the face.

Oh and it seems I forgot to mention one more minor detail that underlines Morrigan's romance and story - it ties into DAO thematically and thus the central story arc and her romance are both enriched through close association. Morrigan has links to: Flemeth, Wardens, Survival, Old Gods, HoF's son and so on. That Morrigan's regular life with her family has actually turned out pretty nicely for her despite her reservations is just the proverbial cherry on top, it has everything - ups and downs, tragedy, separation, two "families" torn apart, a reunion, shades of grey, the list goes on. I mentioned earlier about how it also enriches the dialogue with other companions so quite how you reach the conclusion that Morrigan's romance is lacking in content is beyond me. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe we've whipped ourselves into a tizzy over it for 5 years and it's actually just those 3 conversations you mention...
 

You do realise you are making our point for us now, don't you? It is precisely because of this inner conflict that makes her character and romance more endearing to us. The fact that if she leaves and you don't go with her through the Eluvian, then later in DAI she says that she returned to Ferelden to find HoF, combined with the sorrow & regret slides, that's pretty hard, melancholic stuff on the personal level and implies, no- proves that over time she's reconsidered what's really important to her.
 

Ashwind:

There is simply just 2 awesome lines across 2 different games that indicate the growth and the Warden's influence on Morrigan.

DAO:  Morrigan: (to Leliana): I will say this, then we will speak of it no more (so defensive): Love is a disease, love is a cancer...

DAI Morrigan (romanced>Went through the Eluvian) ...I had a respite with the man I loved.

 

Clearly she is so defensive in DAO because love is what she is yearning for, but dismisses it because of how she was raised. She wants it, she likes it, but has been told for most of her life that its a weakness. Is there any other topic in all of DAO that she states definively, "...then we shall speak of this no more." #owned

 

 

Well this is leading into a larger discussion really since Ash brought up a few pages back that perhaps the reason Morrigan left in Origins was because that it was a preconceived idea/plot climax on the part of the writers, to the extent that the exact rationale behind it wasn't fully thought out, hence why we have just a wishy-washy "I have a plan, you can't come with me, bye." We have had this discussion before but with the Gaider interviews Ash mentioned and the info in Inquisition I'll probably get into the specifics of this again in the future.
 

Support this statement with evidence. Within the scope of DAO alone, that is one possible interpretation, and comes down to how much the Warden trusts her but it is ultimately proven false in DAI. A Morrigan who has had a child from DAO>DAI has changed and I have shown with in-game evidence in my large post several pages back that as of DAI, your statement is factually incorrect - Morrigan ultimately chooses her son's well-being over any power that he might hold, this is shown in-game and cannot be denied.
 

I don't mean to be insulting but with Morrigan, the wordplay, semantics and inflection used are extremely important in her dialogue and I'm wondering if you're missing the subtext due to a language barrier, based on your responses to Ash Wind, I believe this is the case. Like with this example, you seem to be focusing on the literal meaning of "misadventure" rather than the implied meaning of the sentence as a whole. Essentially, your understanding seems to be bound to the surface level of her dialogue rather than the real meaning hidden behind the words, and the ability to read between the lines to discern subtle truths is pretty much the crux of Morrigan's romance.

Additionally Ash also already pointed out Morrigan's exact final words at the gates of Denerim, "This could have been so much easier, and yet… I cannot regret what has happened between us…" which underline her true feelings on the matter. Misadventure is actually brought up much earlier in the romance and again context & the inflection used when she says it is what's important - it doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.
 

Good, I was pleased to have someone like Morrigan along for the ride, the game wouldn't be the same without her. You're free to dislike Morrigan but it shouldn't surprise you that people in this thread will be opposed to your stance on the matter and we've been doing this for years and have seen it all before. I personally feel that a lot of people that dislike her do so because they don't understand her (even the game toys with this at times), a situation which mirrors real life. My personal take on the matter is that your opinions are coloured by a preconception that "Leliana is nice, so I like her and Morrigan is mean, so I don't like her" and you're trying to fit everything within that foregone conclusion, but that won't pass muster with us.

While we're here, let's tackle the Morrigan is so mean, oh so cruel issue...

Morrigan is a pragmatist, so in real terms, with the darkspawn threat looming on the horizon you would not have time for solving every peasant's problem when your main goal is to halt the Blight's incursion. She simply acts as the voice on your shoulder, pointing out more expedient solutions to the problems that present themselves. "Oh what's that, Denerim got flattened? Too bad I was off playing matchmaker to Cammen and Gheyna..." Were time an actual factor in the Blight's progression, you'd be thanking her for keeping you focused on what's important. And yet, discovering that there is often a middle ground is also an important learning process for her as well and is a partial contributor to her changes over time. The only game I recall doing something like this would be Fallout 2, where if you messed about being the saviour to all instead of focusing on your main quest to get the water chip, your home village meets an undesirable end and you don't feel like much of hero when you eventually head home. While we don't see that level of reactivity in DAO, the implication is that it's there in the background. So if Morrigan needs to use sarcasm and a sharp tongue to open your eyes to that fact, so be it.

 

Ashwind:

The odd part about this is, in terms of Grey Wardens of the past, it’s fairly factual that Morrigan’s attitude is more reflective of the spirit of Grey Wardens than (at least my) Grey Warden. As Duncan states in the opening cut scene, Grey Warden’s do ANYTHING they feel they need to in order to defeat the blight. Towns have been burnt to the ground in the name of defeating the blight.

 

In most situations where she disapproves of (my) the Warden’s actions, are, quite frankly, most situations where most Grey Warden’s would disapprove of the Warden’s actions. Saving Redcliffe? Most GW would have burned the village to the ground and simply conscripted Arl Eamon’s knights as they returned… and would not have journeyed off on some hopeless quest, which countless others have failed at, to find the Ashes of Andraste… of course, because THE GW is a badass, he/she succeeds where others have failed. What if the Warden and or Alistair had been killed that night defending Redcliffe? Darkspawn win.

 

Most GWs would probably have saved the Anvil of the Void, and had an army of Golems at their disposal against the blight. My GW destroyed it because it imprisons living souls, and of course, Morrigan disapproved, and in terms of defeating the blight, she was probably more right than my character. But my canon Warden is a Cousland who greatly admired his father, and felt his father simply, would have found another way. Though, the word play was fun, when my GW asked her how she would like to become a golem, her reaction was priceless.

 

Other things she disagrees with are on par with what the GW creed is with respect to defeating the blight. No, the Warden shouldn’t be playing Elven dating game or searching for the blacksmith’s daughter. Most GW’s probably would have killed the mages and recruited the templars (mine didn’t and Morrigan disapproved).

 

The one time Morrigan thoroughly disappoints me (er, I mean my Warden) is near the end, where the creepy mage has Elven slaves, and in exchange for his life, he offers to slaughter the captive elves and increase the Warden’s power. Again, many GWs facing a blight might have accepted this dire choice, mine did not, and Morrigan disapproved, and that was a disappointment.

 

And if you want to focus on why she's tossing out insults and whatnot, it is a product of her upbringing, she has put up barriers around herself in DAO and adopted the frosty personality, both mistrustful and wary of others intentions. Her acerbic tone is just one aspect of this, to preemptively hurt others before they have the chance to hurt her, ie: a defense mechanism. Who knew that living in a swamp, hunted by templars and terrorised by your mother would screw you up...

And on that note, it was nice to see Morrigan get a chance at the extravagant opulence in Orlais within DAI without fear of Flemeth smashing all her possessions up. So no, Morrigan isn't quite as unsympathetic as you seem to think and I personally loved the fact that she expressed a genuine happiness with how things turned out with HoF in DAI. And that's why we love romanced Morrigan, she's a great character on her own but given the appropriate nudge, she's so much more.

And that's enough sappy crap from me for now.

So to wrap up and summarise- other people can see and appreciate aspects of a character that you either cannot or have yet to recognise, often through their own personal experiences. I'd say the most obvious recent example of this would be Gaider's work on Dorian, where aspects of that character's arc and romance would speak far more strongly to some sections of the audience than others. You say English isn't your first language so I don't know, maybe aspects and subtleties of her character are lost on you. To me, Morrigan's romance and story arc are one of the best I've experienced in a game. There's nothing wrong with liking one more than the other or preferring a simpler approach, but if you come into the Morrigan thread making statements like those you did above, expect to be called on it and for us to demonstrate why you're wrong.

Think of it like this- some stories have morals that you can take away from them - something that isn't necessarily readily apparent from the text itself, but it always present subtextually and that's of the case here with Morrigan too - it is layered, multi-faceted and works on multiple levels. Like when Ash got you with the Leliana kissy face jab, there's a place for relatively straightforward romances, but there are those us that enjoy strife, nuance and drama. We love the interplay of Morri's romance with her own goals and other interlinking plot arcs,

 

Well, that was fun, I'll respond to other stuff later.

[Terra_Ex]

-serious myth nerd here-
 
The first time I saw her in-game, I immediately wondered if that was actually the inspiration.  The Celtic goddess Morrigan is associated with ravens, death, battle, and in some legends shapeshifting.  Considering DA Morrigan's character design and outfit (black hair, yellow eyes, interest in pretty mirrors and jewelry which could be read as mirroring a raven's interest in shiny things, plus the black feathers on one shoulder of her outfit) I would be surprised if the Celtic goddess WASN'T somehow an inspiration.

Ha, I'm finding the thought of Morrigan having a "stash" of stolen shiny objects in the Origins camp that randomly populates itself with trinkets to be far funnier than I should   .

[springacres]

Ha, I'm finding the thought of Morrigan having a "stash" of stolen shiny objects in the Origins camp that randomly populates itself with trinkets to be far funnier than I should   .

So am I, and now I have a new headcanon 

Modifié par springacres, 04 mars 2015 - 10:17 .

[Brockololly]

Wondering a bit how people think the news of Gaider leaving affects Morrigan going forward. Obviously she would seemingly not be written by him but I do wonder if that means her seemingly wrapped up plotline (or at least wound down) post Inquisition means she is indeed done or rather Gaider has enough of her future plotlines outlined that he feels ok leaving her in the hands of Weekes and all the other DA writers?

 

I'd expect she'd find the idea of someone crossing her in that setup to be an amusing game, to her it'd be fun to play in the Orlesian court, to trifle with the many fools adrift around her and yet knowingly be one step ahead the whole time. And yet, there is also a safety in it, to be surrounded by the mundane, she can blend in and hide from her mother. It would also explain aspects of her softening as she learns how to turn the situation to her advantage without necessarily having to eliminate her opponents in the traditional sense. Plus she probably also enjoyed aspects of life there, having been denied them by Flemeth, which comes back to the golden mirror thing as well, where, in Orlais and free of her mother, she has an opportunity to explore some of the things she was denied as a child, like some of the things Leliana talked about with her- finery, gowns (with her own unique flair of course), general opulence (which is also a nod to how Leliana and Morrigan's roles are flipped for DAI). Makes me curious on the whole timeline of events too with regards to romanced HoF leaving on his quest, did they stop by Orlais first, or has he sneaked back to visit her and his son at any time since he left on his quest?

 

 

Did you play that Last Court game through the DA Keep? Morrigan does show up there as the "Scorned Sorceress" or something. Haven't played it myself but I guess it deals a bit with her time at the Orlesian Court, researching the Eluvians and such.

 

I agree on most else of what you said regarding her time in Orlais though. As has been mentioned the last couple pages, Origins Morrigan is all about putting on a front- basically trying to live up to people's preconceived notions about how a daughter of a Witch of the Wilds should act. When despite that she really wants to be able to break out from under Flemeth and be her own person and experience the world for herself and make her own conclusions.

 

So yeah, Orlais probably allowed her to indulge a bit with her affinity for shiny trinkets and baubles and just to generally catch up on everything she had been missing first hand by being stuck in a hut in the Korcari Wilds. I can't recall it exactly but she has that one line in one of your early conversations with her in Origins where she talks of reading about all these grand cities of the world and how she wants to actually go to them herself, or something to that effect.  Kind of nice how Inquisition Morrigan has basically been able to do a lot of those sorts of things she had only hoped to do at the beginning of Origins.

 

 

That's a good question with respect to the timeline of events though. As I recall around the time of DA2, we had questions surrounding King Alistair's reference to the HoF being in Denerim and how that maybe didn't make sense if our Wardens went through the Eluvian. Seems more likely that Morrigan, the Warden and Kieran maybe went back and forth there for a time. Whether that means the HoF visited Morrigan at the Orlesian Court or anything? I guess that plays into whether Kieran was known as Morrigan's kid or just how secretive that whole arrangement was.

 

I'm trying to remember but Witch Hunt takes place 1 or 2 years post the end of Origins? I guess Morrigan could have already gotten herself into the Orlesian Court at that point.  But do we think she stayed there off and on for what, almost 8 years? Inquisition made it seem like she had been there a little bit of time and had already made herself some enemies and likely by the time she joined the Inquisition, her time was about up.

 

 

 

 

As an aside to this though, this idea of Morrigan hunting/preying on others within the Orlesian court reminded me of something: someone found a dev note/quote in the DAI files, parts of this text are apparently in the DAI files (I have not verified this myself but I may do so later):
EDIT: It is indeed present in the game files, word for word.
http://www.faerie-wo...athgoddess.html

which is a description of "The Morrigan, Celtic Goddess of Death" who is associated with ravens and reading some of that, it could indeed be some of the inspiration for her character/arc beyond just visuals and maybe future "godhood" plotline, particularly so if it is indeed in the game files. Her choker/necklace that she wears could be a nod to that too (pic shamelessly swiped from google images search for Morrigan. "a cloudy mirror" (both the literal and metaphorical interpretation; mirror image/reflection, which itself could be a sort of play on what Morrigan sees when she looks into a mirror - herself, or her mother?) and pathways certainly have a parallel in the DA universe too...

 

 

 

Wow, that is really bizarre and dammit, you're making my big post even longer now Really strange how that's actually in the game files considering I know how Gaider always has said that the name Morrigan was just because it was a name he had used in some D&D campaign he liked and not any of the connotations to the Celtic goddess, despite all the similarities.

 

I have a passing knowledge of the DAI Tools, whereabouts did you find those files?

 

 

Ha, I'm finding the thought of Morrigan having a "stash" of stolen shiny objects in the Origins camp that randomly populates itself with trinkets to be far funnier than I should   .

Now I'm picturing the Warden strolling over to pay Morrigan a visit at her corner of the camp flipping the tables on Morrigan: "Well, well, what have we here?" catching Morrigan playing with her shiny trinkets , which she hurriedly tries to hide from him. "No, no, tis nothing at all. Just...*sighs* Fine. But don't you ever mention this to Alistair." *Insert Morrigan glare here*