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[Terra_Ex]

Wow, that is really bizarre and dammit, you're making my big post even longer now Really strange how that's actually in the game files considering I know how Gaider always has said that the name Morrigan was just because it was a name he had used in some D&D campaign he liked and not any of the connotations to the Celtic goddess, despite all the similarities.

 

I have a passing knowledge of the DAI Tools, whereabouts did you find those files?

In DAI Tools:

Tools>Talktable Explorer
Search for "The Morrigan" (without quotes) and it'll jump straight to it.

 

The Flemeth's hut line is right near it, as is a reference to The Demon Child, these all occur sequentially in the talktable so it's logical to assume they may be related.

 

Worth noting it exists within the "testcontent" section of the assets, so this could imply many things, (I'm not reading too much into it, but there does seem to be a lot of overlap as springacres pointed out):
-just random stuff that ended up in there (possibly to troll people poking around the files even?)

-funny stuff added by devs during development, not uncommon and there's a lot of it in there.
-the testcontent section seems to be a high level rough draft of key events, so maybe an early guide of game flow or something

Will respond to other points later.
 

[Brockololly]

-funny stuff added by devs during development, not uncommon and there's a lot of it in there.
 

 

Thanks.

 

I don't know man, I think some speculating is warranted for mysterious lines like:

 

"A quest for tomotoes

Bring Mama tomatoes

They are delicious in your pizza"

 

or, "THIS IS A STORE BUY COOL THINGS PLZ"

 

 

My personal favorite is the wording on what seem to be the Morrigan flags: " No, Morrigan ain't no baby mama."

[BurningLizard]

A few pages back it was mentioned that Morrigan's decision not to consider Kieran's feelings should she perish at the well didn't reflect her romanced character development. Personally that didn't bug me, because in my mind it still makes sense even with her character development. It shows that despite living with the man she loves for years and raising their son together, she still can't quite fathom the concept that a mother could be anything but what Flemeth was, and that a child could legitimately love their mother. She makes several references in the game (some found with OGB Kieran and some with Human Kieran) along the lines of, "If I do right by Kieran it will be to inflict as little damage as possible." And if you have human Kieran anytime you compliment her son Morrigan heaps all the credit for how Kieran turned out on the HOF. Which while touching that she thinks so highly of her love, is also absolutely heartbreaking because here we see a woman that is a fantastic, caring mother, the exact opposite of what Flemeth was, and yet she still cannot see her relationship with her son for what it is, that she is a good influence on him, that she has raised him the best a good mother could. In her mind she's still thinking that she is a thread away from being her own mother. That to me explains her behavior at the well. She legitimately thinks, erroneous though it is, that Kieran would be better off without her. That's why she jumps at the risk, because she does not realize how important she is to her son. I imagine her being at the well, realizing how important it is that she raises her son right, thinking herself not up to the task, and realizing that at least she can do some good by preserving an ancient power, since—in her mind—she can't possibly be a good mother, eventually she will slip up and hurt Kieran the way Flemeth hurt her. 

 

TL;DR Even in the happy moments this ship is nothing but sadness and misery. Now imagine the HOF realizing this and giving her a big ol' comforting hug, and how she tells him to knock it off but eventually settles into the hug and enjoys the intimacy between the two of them.

[Heidirs]

A few pages back it was mentioned that Morrigan's decision not to consider Kieran's feelings should she perish at the well didn't reflect her romanced character development. Personally that didn't bug me, because in my mind it still makes sense even with her character development. It shows that despite living with the man she loves for years and raising their son together, she still can't quite fathom the concept that a mother could be anything but what Flemeth was, and that a child could legitimately love their mother. She makes several references in the game (some found with OGB Kieran and some with Human Kieran) along the lines of, "If I do right by Kieran it will be to inflict as little damage as possible." And if you have human Kieran anytime you compliment her son Morrigan heaps all the credit for how Kieran turned out on the HOF. Which while touching that she thinks so highly of her love, is also absolutely heartbreaking because here we see a woman that is a fantastic, caring mother, the exact opposite of what Flemeth was, and yet she still cannot see her relationship with her son for what it is, that she is a good influence on him, that she has raised him the best a good mother could. In her mind she's still thinking that she is a thread away from being her own mother. That to me explains her behavior at the well. She legitimately thinks, erroneous though it is, that Kieran would be better off without her. That's why she jumps at the risk, because she does not realize how important she is to her son. I imagine her being at the well, realizing how important it is that she raises her son right, thinking herself not up to the task, and realizing that at least she can do some good by preserving an ancient power, since—in her mind—she can't possibly be a good mother, eventually she will slip up and hurt Kieran the way Flemeth hurt her. 

 

I'm not sure about this... that line where she says Kerian will be okay without her, her voices changes. My interpretation was that she doesn't actually believe what she's saying. She loves her son and she really doesn't want to leave him alone. She's not sure how he'd be without her - she may even be certain it will crush him. But Kerian was created to persevere old magic. She can't let her love for him get in the way of preserving something else. 

 

That's how I saw it, anyway. I think the Inquisitor's question really pains her to think about, but she has to push forward for what she believes in,

[Terra_Ex]

or, "THIS IS A STORE BUY COOL THINGS PLZ"

 

 

My personal favorite is the wording on what seem to be the Morrigan flags: " No, Morrigan ain't no baby mama."

To be fair that first bit could easily be cut content from a planned in-game DLC store There are a number of hilarious lines and item names/descriptions scattered throughout too.

 

As for BurningLizard's post, yeah, that's definitely something to think on, you have brought up some great points there and piqued my interest on that front (to such an extent that this may cause me to re-evaluate my thoughts on the well of sorrows... to a point), a lot of that really ties back into some moments in Origins. I'll try to get something typed up in response later.

[BurningLizard]

I'm not sure about this... that line where she says Kerian will be okay without her, her voices changes. My interpretation was that she doesn't actually believe what she's saying. She loves her son and she really doesn't want to leave him alone. She's not sure how he'd be without her - she may even be certain it will crush him. But Kerian was created to persevere old magic. She can't let her love for him get in the way of preserving something else. 

 

That's how I saw it, anyway. I think the Inquisitor's question really pains her to think about, but she has to push forward for what she believes in,

I can definitely see reading it like that, but in conjunction with her statements that suggest she feels incapable of being a good mother suggest that perhaps her tone of voice during that segment may be that she doesn't believe what she's saying, but I read it more like she does believe what she's saying, she does love Kieran and doesn't want to leave him, but she thinks that he would be better off without her. In her mind she'd be fighting her selfish side to do what's best for Kieran, not realizing it's the exact opposite of what she thinks he needs. I have no doubt that she loves him to bits, and would want to stay with him, but her feelings of inadequacy shed light, to me at least, on what seems like an out of character act at the well in a way that make it feel less like bad writing.

[Terra_Ex]

Ok, so here's my thoughts on that issue:

 

A few pages back it was mentioned that Morrigan's decision not to consider Kieran's feelings should she perish at the well didn't reflect her romanced character development. Personally that didn't bug me, because in my mind it still makes sense even with her character development. It shows that despite living with the man she loves for years and raising their son together, she still can't quite fathom the concept that a mother could be anything but what Flemeth was, and that a child could legitimately love their mother. She makes several references in the game (some found with OGB Kieran and some with Human Kieran) along the lines of, "If I do right by Kieran it will be to inflict as little damage as possible." And if you have human Kieran anytime you compliment her son Morrigan heaps all the credit for how Kieran turned out on the HOF. Which while touching that she thinks so highly of her love, is also absolutely heartbreaking because here we see a woman that is a fantastic, caring mother, the exact opposite of what Flemeth was, and yet she still cannot see her relationship with her son for what it is, that she is a good influence on him, that she has raised him the best a good mother could. In her mind she's still thinking that she is a thread away from being her own mother. That to me explains her behavior at the well. She legitimately thinks, erroneous though it is, that Kieran would be better off without her. That's why she jumps at the risk, because she does not realize how important she is to her son. I imagine her being at the well, realizing how important it is that she raises her son right, thinking herself not up to the task, and realizing that at least she can do some good by preserving an ancient power, since—in her mind—she can't possibly be a good mother, eventually she will slip up and hurt Kieran the way Flemeth hurt her.

Well now, that is an interesting take on things and I think there's a lot of truth to what you've written there. I'm kind of annoyed that I forgot about that pause in her dialogue there in the Well though, I did notice it but it seems I forgot to dig into it in my huge writeup on the issue and even then I'm not sure I would have made this same observation, so- good post.

Your comments on how she sees herself as a mother are astute, I think there probably is a nihilistic element to her line at the Well, I can see that and it does tie those instances where she downplays her own role in Kieran's upbringing together and gives them context. I really enjoyed your writeup on how she'd be comparing herself to her mother but it's still sad to think that she'd endanger herself willfully to that extent, it's something of an extension on the notion that in DAO she kind of feels that doesn't deserve to be happy, and in DAI, even as she muses on her life with her family, there's the idea that can't quite believe it herself. Perhaps she needed this sort of nudge (WoS and the Flemeth dilemma) to get her to truly realise that she has it wrong? I think the fact that she favours her son over the OGB soul speaks well of her and may be considered the point where she can finally move past that line of thinking. The whole idea of Morrigan thinking she is a bad mother does also seem to playing up the duality aspect of things once again - she wants to be a good mother, she truly does but part of her thinks that she can't do that and thus she latches onto something else to cover for it.
 

She makes several references in the game (some found with OGB Kieran and some with Human Kieran) along the lines of, "If I do right by Kieran it will be to inflict as little damage as possible." And if you have human Kieran anytime you compliment her son Morrigan heaps all the credit for how Kieran turned out on the HOF. Which while touching that she thinks so highly of her love, is also absolutely heartbreaking because here we see a woman that is a fantastic, caring mother, the exact opposite of what Flemeth was, and yet she still cannot see her relationship with her son for what it is, that she is a good influence on him, that she has raised him the best a good mother could.

I think you're right, though it's very subtle, that could indeed be the reason why she wants to shift focus/credit for it onto another. There is definitely that undertone to her conversations, but then what parent doesn't second guess themselves over whether they're doing right by their child and with Morrigan's past, those feelings would be all the more complex. In some ways her dialogue talking about her family could be meant throw you off the inner issues she still carries with her.

That the player (not the Inquisitor) again sees something in her that she doesn't recognise in herself- that's repeating part of her romance where she's saying she isn't worth HoF's "distraction," which does imply that she herself doesn't feel worthy of being loved, again here- it's the same kind of thing with Kieran. It does follow then that even despite her best intentions there's a part of her that thinks she'll somehow end up harming her son, which like you say is just another saddening aspect of her character... You might have hit upon the real reason for her behaviour there in fact, she's trying to hold herself to an impossibly high standard.
 

In her mind she's still thinking that she is a thread away from being her own mother. That to me explains her behavior at the well. She legitimately thinks, erroneous though it is, that Kieran would be better off without her. That's why she jumps at the risk, because she does not realize how important she is to her son. I imagine her being at the well, realizing how important it is that she raises her son right, thinking herself not up to the task, and realizing that at least she can do some good by preserving an ancient power, since—in her mind—she can't possibly be a good mother, eventually she will slip up and hurt Kieran the way Flemeth hurt her.

Yes, such an explanation does make sense to me as well. The idea that a sense of inferiority and doubt still haunts her, even years down the line and under that outer shell of confidence and apparent hubris, sad though it is, I can certainly see that being the case- she is troubled and conflicted when delivering Well of Sorrows line. When you look at it that way, the whole Well sequence kind of acts as set up for when Morrigan knocks it out of the park in the Fade scene with Flemeth, I'd like to think she's finally worked past that doubt in that moment or at least her choice there will allow her to do so in the future.

Now all that being said, I think for me the main problem with the scene and setup is I don't feel that the player should have to meta game in this fashion. What I mean by that is, if HoF and Morrigan are together and have a kid, it should never fall to a secondary, unrelated PC to have to bring up the fact that Morrigan has a kid (and family) to her, she should be acutely aware of that. That stuff should be coming up naturally in pertinent dialogue by itself or at least should be influencing her decision making a little more prominently, although like you say, you can posit these kind of machinations are occurring in her mind under the hood and Morrigan is all about seeing the real truth behind the veil of words... Like you can argue that that moment of hesitancy in her voice could indeed be just that, but still, if you don't present the issue to her, it's almost like she doesn't consider it. Had Kieran come up in the conversation naturally through Morrigan's side of dialogue (a character could interject that Morrigan looks troubled for example), I'd say that would have worked a lot better in terms of bringing out that aspect of inner-conflict. With the way that dialogue tree is structured, I don't think you get to see that side of things without digging for it - although that doesn't mean it isn't there and indeed if we go with your trail of thought, the whole thing does sort of reconcile itself quite well with her whole life thus far - we knew she had a troubled childhood under Flemeth, but maybe this is indeed how she'd attempt to resolve those issues.

Like I've touched on in previous posts, leaving her on that self-doubting note may be the important takeaway from the whole thing (and why it works as a potential end point for her) because even with her growth, she's still asking herself if she'll ever escape from the shadow of her mother and with the points you've brought up here, I think that those in particular really play on that aspect of her character.

As a player you're seeing Morrigan and thinking "wow, Morrigan's gone on to be a really great mother to her kid" but then under the surface, she's troubled but doesn't show it... Which is kind of ironic, because DA2 was supposed to be a more personal story, but with Morrigan in particular from DAO to DAI, her failed plans and relationship with her son, that is a far more personal and hard-hitting story in my eyes.

 

TL;DR Even in the happy moments this ship is nothing but sadness and misery. Now imagine the HOF realizing this and giving her a big ol' comforting hug, and how she tells him to knock it off but eventually settles into the hug and enjoys the intimacy between the two of them.

Damn, you're really hitting those feels here today, I was thinking the same thing regards HoF's response. You can't bring stuff like this up in the Morri thread, you'll reduce us all to tears. I can just picture my HoF rushing in from the sidelines like he's been watching some Greek tragedy unfold in theatre to give Morrigan a hug and make everything better. She'd be so embarrassed, haha. *pictures a fully armored HoF crushing Morrigan's slender form with his outpouring of emotion and resultant bear hug!*
 

I'm not sure about this... that line where she says Kerian will be okay without her, her voices changes. My interpretation was that she doesn't actually believe what she's saying. She loves her son and she really doesn't want to leave him alone. She's not sure how he'd be without her - she may even be certain it will crush him. But Kerian was created to persevere old magic. She can't let her love for him get in the way of preserving something else.

This is true but it doesn't stop BurningLizard's interpretation of it from being true as well. I absolutely agree that Morrigan does love her son and doesn't want to leave him like that but there is definitely this cloud of doubt that she's kept with her. I don't think that in this case her desire to preserve magic is overpowering that (it is perhaps a convenient excuse to once again cover up her real feelings/hide behind?) and I'd say that her encounter with Flemeth suggests that Kieran's OGB soul is no longer important to Morrigan (at least not in that moment where he is in danger), nor is it any longer a factor in how she treats Kieran, but the idea that she thinks that she is a bad mother, I can buy that given everything that has transpired. Secondly, just coming down to logic, if Morrigan dies she can't really do much  of anything with regards to protecting Kieran/preserving anything if she doesn't look after herself, which was really my core problem with her jumping at the Well of Sorrows despite the risks.

As an aside, even some of the greatest creatives in their field suffer from crippling self-doubt and that could be what's at play here - she's so sure that she'll mess up as her mother did before her, that in a self-deprecating sort of way, removing herself from the equation makes sense to her (which we've seen before when she tried to break things off mid-romance in DAO). It is an extremely tragic thought, but it does make sense. The issue is from my perspective as a player is that, like BurningLizard alludes to, HoF with his knowledge of everything that has transpired would presumably be able to help her work through that, even just within that moment, without him there, her mind is freed up to sort of run rampant to these extreme kinds of conclusions. The Inquisitor can bring up Morrigan's son, sure, but he doesn't know the full extent of how far she's come since Origins.

In some ways, the Warden has added to her troubles in that respect, he's brought her out of her shell and allowed her to experience so much, but that internalised crippling sense of doubt she harbors with regards how she sees herself as a mother - a reflection of Flemeth? I'd imagine that haunts her still.
 

That's how I saw it, anyway. I think the Inquisitor's question really pains her to think about, but she has to push forward for what she believes in,

I think her desire to preserve old magic is important to her but it also acts as a plot device to guide her into these sorts of situations. I like to think that in big moments for her, particularly in DAI, the human element is of growing importance to her. When the choice of the OGB soul or her son was laid before her, she chose her kid which I think represents another shift in her. I don't think having a character whose purpose was just to generically pursue various old powers was the intention, Gaider said himself that he wanted people to think of her as more than just a plot device and breaking out from under her Mother and making her own choices seems to be doing just that.

TLDR: Everyone in the Morri thread loves Morri, but she doesn't love herself

[Ash Wind]

A few pages back it was mentioned that Morrigan's decision not to consider Kieran's feelings should she perish at the well didn't reflect her romanced character development. Personally that didn't bug me, because in my mind it still makes sense even with her character development. It shows that despite living with the man she loves for years and raising their son together, she still can't quite fathom the concept that a mother could be anything but what Flemeth was, and that a child could legitimately love their mother. She makes several references in the game (some found with OGB Kieran and some with Human Kieran) along the lines of, "If I do right by Kieran it will be to inflict as little damage as possible." And if you have human Kieran anytime you compliment her son Morrigan heaps all the credit for how Kieran turned out on the HOF. Which while touching that she thinks so highly of her love, is also absolutely heartbreaking because here we see a woman that is a fantastic, caring mother, the exact opposite of what Flemeth was, and yet she still cannot see her relationship with her son for what it is, that she is a good influence on him, that she has raised him the best a good mother could. In her mind she's still thinking that she is a thread away from being her own mother. That to me explains her behavior at the well. She legitimately thinks, erroneous though it is, that Kieran would be better off without her. That's why she jumps at the risk, because she does not realize how important she is to her son. I imagine her being at the well, realizing how important it is that she raises her son right, thinking herself not up to the task, and realizing that at least she can do some good by preserving an ancient power, since—in her mind—she can't possibly be a good mother, eventually she will slip up and hurt Kieran the way Flemeth hurt her. 

 

TL;DR Even in the happy moments this ship is nothing but sadness and misery. Now imagine the HOF realizing this and giving her a big ol' comforting hug, and how she tells him to knock it off but eventually settles into the hug and enjoys the intimacy between the two of them.

Awesome post. While I disagree with most of it, it certainly an interesting, and well thought-out post that adds to the discussion, well done.

 

While its does offer some ideas I hadn’t considered, I still retain my complete distain for how she acts. The only way for me to reconcile her actions, is if she is aware of the Well and knows in advance drinking from it wouldn’t be fatal, and maybe even the reason she brings the IQ there, under the guise of the Eluvian. It’s also making some serious assumptions (though I am not saying they are implausible) and interpreting feelings to her that could be true, but just as easily could not.

 

I don’t think any parent thinks they completely do right by their children and don’t think they could have done seriously better. And further to that point, I am sure, especially someone with Morrigan’s background, there are a great many parents (like myself) who strongly believe their significant other has had a better impact on their children then they had. IMHO, this isn’t sign of a deep inferiority complex as it is admiration of the HoF.  And again, parenting 101, other than the obvious physical damage others can pose, I think there are few loving parents who don’t fear they will be the one to inflict harm (not physical) on their child.

 

I simply don’t see a Morrigan who thinks her son would be better off without her, particularly at a time when A.) His father is nowhere to be found and B.) Knows that Flemeth is out there somewhere and is always a threat to the OGB Kieran and C.) the world is under assult from one of the original Darkspawn. Then, if I recall correctly, once the IQ returns from WoS, is when Kieran is drawn through the Eluvian.

 

If Morrigan died, and then Kieran walks through the Eluvian, its game over. Not only does everything Morrigan has worked for and sacrificed been wasted in the weak crusade ‘...of preserving old magic,’ but what must be her motherly worst fear becomes realized… Kieran is now to be raised by Flemeth.

 

And that's why I can't buy the "...Thrive With Out Me..." line; she's just going to up and potentially leave Kieran alone in a world where Flemeth is looking for him? No. Kieran without Morrigan and the HoF is Flemeth's prey.

 

“I am many things, but I will not be the mother you were to me.” Does not sound like a woman who’s hanging by a thread, fearful that she will become Flemeth and is more than willing to take any risk, a risk that threatens not only herself, but her son.

 

Again, well thought out and I like it but, IMO motherly Morrigan actions at the Well (unless she has secret knowledge) severely disappoints.

[Heidirs]

I've watched the clips now where Morrigan expresses her self-doubt as a mother. I was really surprised. Why does this only show if she romanced the Warden, do you think?

[Terra_Ex]

While its does offer some ideas I hadn’t considered, I still retain my complete distain for how she acts. The only way for me to reconcile her actions, is if she is aware of the Well and knows in advance drinking from it wouldn’t be fatal, and maybe even the reason she brings the IQ there, under the guise of the Eluvian. It’s also making some serious assumptions (though I am not saying they are implausible) and interpreting feelings to her that could be true, but just as easily could not.

I'd say it's the closest I've seen anyone come to reconciling the whole thing logically (outside of the obvious out of character explanation), but it's still not absolutely watertight. It does have some elements that I really liked- such as the self-doubt elements and how she feels she could slip into her mother's shoes so to speak, which is why it's important to explore the possibilities, like you say - maybe there's an explanation out there that fits. Your idea that she essentially "lies" to the IQ or is as least economical with the truth, maybe... But her reactions and surprise in the temple of Mythal do seem genuine so I'm disinclined to believe that could be the case.

The bolded - can she possibly know this? A lot of the temple of Mythal stuff is seemingly set up to prove Morrigan's theories wrong - repeatedly, though both environment and dialogue, which is one of the reasons her choice to leap at the power annoys me and gets at the hubris angle; it's evident at that point that Morrigan despite her claims is not quite the expert on Elven lore she'd have you believe, and she has to be feeling that doubt herself as she draws closer to the Well (she does in fact), when there's an unknown element at play like that, my expectation of her was to err on the side of caution. The "oh preservation of such and such" angle doesn't really cover it because if she's dead, that's it, she's lost and she already has something major in her hand which she would want to protect.
 

I don’t think any parent thinks they completely do right by their children and don’t think they could have done seriously better. And further to that point, I am sure, especially someone with Morrigan’s background, there are a great many parents (like myself) who strongly believe their significant other has had a better impact on their children then they had. IMHO, this isn’t sign of a deep inferiority complex as it is admiration of the HoF.  And again, parenting 101, other than the obvious physical damage others can pose, I think there are few loving parents who don’t fear they will be the one to inflict harm (not physical) on their child.
 
I simply don’t see a Morrigan who thinks her son would be better off without her, particularly at a time when A.) His father is nowhere to be found and B.) Knows that Flemeth is out there somewhere and is always a threat to the OGB Kieran and C.) the world is under assult from one of the original Darkspawn. Then, if I recall correctly, once the IQ returns from WoS, is when Kieran is drawn through the Eluvian.

As an abstract idea, I can kind of buy it- more so at an earlier point in the timeline, but as you say, given the specific circumstances in which that choice occurs, it casts doubt on theory. Your alternate reading is of course perfectly valid. One thing though:
-Morrigan has been living beyond Flemeth's clutches for a good while, there is a possibility that over the years she's sort of become... forgetful of the real threat, in terms of being "settled" into a regular type of life. By that I mean, say living with HoF and later in Orlais, the idea that her mother is still out there somewhere trying to get at her, with the passage of time it becomes something of a distant memory. Do you think it's possible she's become a little complacent in looking over her shoulder so to speak? More so than a Morrigan with no ties would be? She's quite happy strutting around Orlais and indeed the subject of her mother never comes up until late in the game. That does to play to to Flemeth's lessons conversation from Origins - where by straying from the way that she was taught to live, she forgot that there are greater threats out there that what resides in the Orlesian court.

You are correct, the Eluvian incident happens right after the Well scene and with that setup. It's implied that the tampering with the WoS is what made Flemeth aware of Morrigan's presence, iirc - through her connection to the well, she was that watery figure I presume. The fact may be that in repurposing the ring her mother gave her (to allow Flemeth to track Morrigan) and giving it HoF, Flemeth really had no way to track her down and she only found her because somebody messed with the WoS. So in that act of overreaching herself, Morrigan brought down Flemeth's wrath upon her and Kieran.

You may even be able to make an argument that the whole thing was some kind of test for Morrigan, yes Flemeth did want the OGB soul, but I don't think it's ever stated with certainty whether Flemeth wished harm upon Kieran, obviously Morrigan's concerns on the matter are understandable but as she states herself, it could form some type of test, especially so with the motherly goddess aspect of Mythal. At a stretch, could you even say it was a partially altruistic act on her part?
 

“I am many things, but I will not be the mother you were to me.” Does not sound like a woman who’s hanging by a thread, fearful that she will become Flemeth and is more than willing to take any risk, a risk that threatens not only herself, but her son.

Just to play devil's advocate, that was her big moment with Flemeth where stuff really hits the fan and she's forced to deal with her feelings directly, there's no more time to muse on the topic or to second guess herself in that moment, it's raw emotion rather than the over-thinking that BurningLizard implies was going on in the period leading up to the WoS. I actually do like the theory, despite the sad implications it implies, you can argue Morrigan never really resolved her feelings with regards to how her mother treated here in Origins so it follows that she'd bring that baggage with her and have it influence her plotlines in DAI. She likely swore to be a better parent than Flemeth was to her well before that moment, true, but I think in her mind, it'd stick with her. But that in itself somewhat implies that she and HoF never talked about any of this stuff during their time together, which to me seems like a stretch. Considering the change she's undergone between the games, if she still had that level of self-doubt in herself as a mother, I feel that HoF would have noticed it and (as the Origins camp counselor) supported her. If she was that much of a potential loose cannon, would HoF have felt comfortable leaving Kieran with her, what we see is just the opposite- he expresses great admiration, faith and trust in Morrigan in his letter. Added to that, Morrigan is both strong and willful within herself. This lends credence to Ash Wind's statement that Morrigan's dialogue pertaining to HoF is spoken in terms of admiration, respect and gratitude. Heck, the guy tracked her down and convinced her to let him accompany her, that's got to have left an impression on her and spoke to her own sense of self-worth.
 
The theory does have merit, whether it can be taken all the way to the finish line successfully, I'm not sure, but at the very least it does play to some of her Origins conversations quite well, plus it ties in with the whole "she says one thing but means another" thing (though she may have moved past that by the time DAI occurs), and I did quite enjoy running with it and exploring the possibilities.
 

If Morrigan died, and then Kieran walks through the Eluvian, its game over. Not only does everything Morrigan has worked for and sacrificed been wasted in the ‘name of preserving old magic,’ but what must be her motherly worst fear becomes realized… Kieran is now to be raised by Flemeth.

Yeah, this is kind of the breaking point for me too which kills various theories stone dead. Regardless of her desire to preserve old magic, Morrigan is also all about self-preservation, she could acquire all kinds of old magic and knowledge but it won't mean anything if she's dead. This stuff needs to make sense or have some way of being logically reconciled. If the terrible price had been death then her son is likely screwed, to say nothing about how HoF would feel on the matter, what if he dies too? And all for the high-minded idea of preserving old magic, as Flemeth challenges her on - "to what end?" She has no answer to that question, the only answer she can proffer is that her son has grown to become more important to her than the aspect of the old god/magic which he carries, that much is clear as day and hammered home multiple times. So to that end I don't think anyone can conclude that preserving/obtaining old magic would be more important to Morrigan in that particular situation. The preservation aspect seems to be the background noise, or motivation for keeping her character popping up in relevant plot threads, I'm not saying it's not important to her, but to say that it's more important than her son severely contradicts in-game evidence.
 

Again, well thought out and I like it but, IMO motherly Morrigan actions at the Well (unless she has secret knowledge) severely disappoints.

Even more so because they did such a great job with her everywhere else... But hey, if anyone can reconcile this with a 100% watertight theory, go for it.

[Heidirs]

 

“I am many things, but I will not be the mother you were to me.” Does not sound like a woman who’s hanging by a thread, fearful that she will become Flemeth and is more than willing to take any risk, a risk that threatens not only herself, but her son.

 

Except if she romanced the Warden (or maybe it's only if she drank from the well?), the line is "Take my body, if you must. Just let Kerian go. He will be better off without me. Just as I was without you." And the way she says it... it's almost like she's given up. I was really shocked when I saw that version. I'm not sure what the difference is that make Morrigan say one line over the other. She certainly sounds more confident on one side.

[Terra_Ex]

Except if she romanced the Warden (or maybe it's only if she drank from the well?), the line is "Take my body, if you must. Just let Kerian go. He will be better off without me. Just as I was without you." And the way she says it... it's almost like she's given up. I was really shocked when I saw that version. I'm not sure what the difference is that make Morrigan say one line over the other. She certainly sounds more confident on one side.

I can't recall what the other variation is offhand but she's powerless in that situation so her only recourse is to offer Flemeth what she thinks that she wants in order to save her son, whilst simultaneously underlining how she feels on her mother. It's not so much giving up as she's doing the only thing she can do in that situation to save her child. Flemeth states that her power is greater than Morrigan's within that location and either she or the Inquisitor is under a geas - it's a fight Morrigan can't win so that's pretty much all she can do in that circumstance. Emotion rules the scene and I'm not sure there's a deeper meaning to her words beyond what's there on the surface simply because of that fact.
 

 

Some other replies, still got some older stuff I want to reply to in the future too:

Wondering a bit how people think the news of Gaider leaving affects Morrigan going forward. Obviously she would seemingly not be written by him but I do wonder if that means her seemingly wrapped up plotline (or at least wound down) post Inquisition means she is indeed done or rather Gaider has enough of her future plotlines outlined that he feels ok leaving her in the hands of Weekes and all the other DA writers?

Well, you know my thoughts on this so I won't restate them here beyond just thanking David for Morrigan once more, he must have done something right for us completely well-adjusted individuals to still be discussing her years down the line. With regards to her returning at all post-DAI or someone else handling her, I'll just parrot the thread mantra - "I have concerns."
 

Did you play that Last Court game through the DA Keep? Morrigan does show up there as the "Scorned Sorceress" or something. Haven't played it myself but I guess it deals a bit with her time at the Orlesian Court, researching the Eluvians and such.

No, but I meant to, just didn't find the time to get around to it. I'll try to have a look at it soon though. "Scorned Sorceress", haha.
 

So yeah, Orlais probably allowed her to indulge a bit with her affinity for shiny trinkets and baubles and just to generally catch up on everything she had been missing first hand by being stuck in a hut in the Korcari Wilds. I can't recall it exactly but she has that one line in one of your early conversations with her in Origins where she talks of reading about all these grand cities of the world and how she wants to actually go to them herself, or something to that effect. Kind of nice how Inquisition Morrigan has basically been able to do a lot of those sorts of things she had only hoped to do at the beginning of Origins.

Most definitely, I really liked that aspect of Morrigan in DAI. It's not conspicuous, but it is a nice little detail that they followed through on. Likewise, I'm not gonna go searching for the line but there's definitely something in her dialogue there and it was gratifying to see her get to do just that in DAI.
 

Now I'm picturing the Warden strolling over to pay Morrigan a visit at her corner of the camp flipping the tables on Morrigan: "Well, well, what have we here?" catching Morrigan playing with her shiny trinkets , which she hurriedly tries to hide from him. "No, no, tis nothing at all. Just...*sighs* Fine. But don't you ever mention this to Alistair." *Insert Morrigan glare here*

I should mod in a raven that randomly flies into camp with stuff in its beak while you're conversing with other characters. You do a double take and notice Morrigan standing in her usual spot. And after that happens a few times, the scene you describe becomes available, ha.

[Brockololly]

She makes several references in the game (some found with OGB Kieran and some with Human Kieran) along the lines of, "If I do right by Kieran it will be to inflict as little damage as possible." And if you have human Kieran anytime you compliment her son Morrigan heaps all the credit for how Kieran turned out on the HOF. Which while touching that she thinks so highly of her love, is also absolutely heartbreaking because here we see a woman that is a fantastic, caring mother, the exact opposite of what Flemeth was, and yet she still cannot see her relationship with her son for what it is, that she is a good influence on him, that she has raised him the best a good mother could. In her mind she's still thinking that she is a thread away from being her own mother. That to me explains her behavior at the well. She legitimately thinks, erroneous though it is, that Kieran would be better off without her. That's why she jumps at the risk, because she does not realize how important she is to her son. I imagine her being at the well, realizing how important it is that she raises her son right, thinking herself not up to the task, and realizing that at least she can do some good by preserving an ancient power, since—in her mind—she can't possibly be a good mother, eventually she will slip up and hurt Kieran the way Flemeth hurt her. 

 

TL;DR Even in the happy moments this ship is nothing but sadness and misery. Now imagine the HOF realizing this and giving her a big ol' comforting hug, and how she tells him to knock it off but eventually settles into the hug and enjoys the intimacy between the two of them.

 

 

I hadn't quite thought of it that way, but in a very sad, depressing sort of way, it kind of does work. Like you pointed out, at least prior to the Fade sequence with Kieran, Morrigan doesn't exactly seem like she has much confidence in her own personal abilities as a mother, despite seemingly like she's doing a fine job. So I could see it how you're seeing it where Morrigan in some twisted way fears becoming the sort of mother Flemeth was to her, even if it doesn't seem that's the case at all. Her mental damage at the hands of Flemeth for all those years really scarred her to such an extent that maybe Morrigan does think the best she can do is to simply not damage the kid, knowing first hand how shitty parenting a la Flemeth can affect someone's upbringing. Then when you get to the Well, she's maybe in a real nihilistic state of mind thinking that since she can't do much positive for Kieran, she may as well slurp up the Well to try and preserve some ancient knowledge or something.

 

The part of Morrigan where she fears being a terrible mother like Flemeth rings true but even still, having her basically act the way she does at the Well justified in her mind that way, almost makes her as bad a mother as Flemeth? If say, the Well had some instantly terrible Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade style "He chose...poorly" consequence for Morrigan, leaving Kieran an orphan (or basically an orphan with the HoF off who knows where out far west), what then? Morrigan's actions in that case seem supremely self centered and kind of insane since up to that point its seemed like her main goal has been to keep Kieran safe. Like when you get to the Fade, Flemeth brings up how she's been searching for Kieran and yet Morrigan has up to that point kept him safe away from Flemeth. If that's been a big goal for Morrigan, I can't see how her going all reckless at the Well of Sorrows and potentially orphaning Kieran does any good. But like you said, if you color everything Morrigan is doing here through the lens of her own craptastic upbringing with Flemeth, maybe she's looking at this a bit selfishly, thinking she is just one step away from being a horrible mom like she felt Flemeth was to her growing up.

 

 

I'm not sure about this... that line where she says Kerian will be okay without her, her voices changes. My interpretation was that she doesn't actually believe what she's saying. She loves her son and she really doesn't want to leave him alone. She's not sure how he'd be without her - she may even be certain it will crush him. But Kerian was created to persevere old magic. She can't let her love for him get in the way of preserving something else. 

 

That's how I saw it, anyway. I think the Inquisitor's question really pains her to think about, but she has to push forward for what she believes in,

That may be the case too.

 

I just have issues with Morrigan's sudden reveal at the Well of Sorrows how she seemingly ditches everything to run head long into the Well of Sorrows for this really high minded and philosophical goal of blindly preserving all ancient magical things ever, just because. That really lofty, almost abstract notion of wanting to preserve knowledge and things just for the hell of it kind of bugs me since it seemingly flies in the face of how pragmatic she so frequently comes across in Origins. I guess it comes down to why she wants to preserve all that knowledge. Is it for some specific goal? Not really, since I think she basically says she just wants to save the world from the mundane. Which just seems... mundane?

 

I'll touch on this in my big post which I'm trying to wrap up...

 

(These are all quotes from Terra, I don't know why they're not showing who I quoted from)

I think you're right, though it's very subtle, that could indeed be the reason why she wants to shift focus/credit for it onto another. There is definitely that undertone to her conversations, but then what parent doesn't second guess themselves over whether they're doing right by their child and with Morrigan's past, those feelings would be all the more complex. In some ways her dialogue talking about her family could be meant throw you off the inner issues she still carries with her.

 

Given how Morrigan (by her accounts at least) had basically an abusive upbringing, it kind of makes you wonder whether its like how you read about how children who grow up in abusive households have a higher chance of becoming abusive parents themselves. And maybe in Morrigan's case, she has a certain amount of self awareness of this fact, to the point where it becomes (again) an issue of self doubt.  Or perhaps as kind of hinted at in the Fade scene, Morrigan did have some nasty or otherwise not great plan for Kieran originally but that changed as she actually raised him and started caring for him as her own child, not just some pawn or avenue for power or whatever her original plan may have been? And in reflecting on that, she carries a certain amount of ill will towards herself, maybe even reflecting back on how she's thought of how Flemeth seemingly raised her for Flemeth's own power by eventually stealing her body.

 

 

Yes, such an explanation does make sense to me as well. The idea that a sense of inferiority and doubt still haunts her, even years down the line and under that outer shell of confidence and apparent hubris, sad though it is, I can certainly see that being the case- she is troubled and conflicted when delivering Well of Sorrows line. When you look at it that way, the whole Well sequence kind of acts as set up for when Morrigan knocks it out of the park in the Fade scene with Flemeth, I'd like to think she's finally worked past that doubt in that moment or at least her choice there will allow her to do so in the future.

 

RIght- its maybe kind of how in your big post you mention the aspect of Morrigan having the high stakes and low stakes moments at the Well and later in the Fade with Flemeth. If we're looking at her willingness to drink from the Well as her almost giving in to her self doubt as a mother, as far as raising Kieran goes, then her slamming Flemeth in the Fade for being a terrible mother is sort of Morrigan's moment to pull a 180 and maybe realize that she isn't her mother and she can and will do a better job as a parent, even if she's not perfect doing it all the time.

 

 

As an aside, even some of the greatest creatives in their field suffer from crippling self-doubt and that could be what's at play here - she's so sure that she'll mess up as her mother did before her, that in a self-deprecating sort of way, removing herself from the equation makes sense to her (which we've seen before when she tried to break things off mid-romance in DAO). It is an extremely tragic thought, but it does make sense. The issue is from my perspective as a player is that, like BurningLizard alludes to, HoF with his knowledge of everything that has transpired would presumably be able to help her work through that, even just within that moment, without him there, her mind is freed up to sort of run rampant to these extreme kinds of conclusions. The Inquisitor can bring up Morrigan's son, sure, but he doesn't know the full extent of how far she's come since Origins.

In some ways, the Warden has added to her troubles in that respect, he's brought her out of her shell and allowed her to experience so much, but that internalised crippling sense of doubt she harbors with regards how she sees herself as a mother - a reflection of Flemeth? I'd imagine that haunts her still.

 

 

Yup, that's kind of my take on things. I guess taking a step back and looking at the overall feel of the whole Mythal sequence as a whole here given this new POV on Morrigan's actions, it still feels like a reach. I mean, I'm on board with Morrigan's whole crippling self doubt and her fearing she'll wind up a terrible mother like Flemeth. But I still have trouble really reconciling her actions at the Well of Sorrows, at least as they're presented in the game. If a mother/romanced Morrigan's actions at the Well are in part largely fueled by her being so self hating and fearful of herself that she'd take a blind risk, that should have come across much more than what you actually get in the game, which is basically that Morrigan wants to preserve stuff for the hell of it.

 

I like this idea for her motivations as it does make sense, but I'm just wondering if we're not giving Gaider and company maybe a bit too much credit here.

 

 

I think her desire to preserve old magic is important to her but it also acts as a plot device to guide her into these sorts of situations. I like to think that in big moments for her, particularly in DAI, the human element is of growing importance to her. When the choice of the OGB soul or her son was laid before her, she chose her kid which I think represents another shift in her. I don't think having a character whose purpose was just to generically pursue various old powers was the intention, Gaider said himself that he wanted people to think of her as more than just a plot device and breaking out from under her Mother and making her own choices seems to be doing just that.

 

Sure, that makes sense, at least so long as you have a Morrigan that was romanced and/or had a kid. Default Morrigan? Eh....

 

TLDR: Everyone in the Morri thread loves Morri, but she doesn't love herself

 

Cue Sad Morri pictures:

 

[Ash Wind]

I'd say it's the closest I've seen anyone come to reconciling the whole thing logically (outside of the obvious out of character explanation), but it's still not absolutely watertight. It does have some elements that I really liked- such as the self-doubt elements and how she feels she could slip into her mother's shoes so to speak, which is why it's important to explore the possibilities, like you say - maybe there's an explanation out there that fits. Your idea that she essentially "lies" to the IQ or is as least economical with the truth, maybe... But her reactions and surprise in the temple of Mythal do seem genuine so I'm disinclined to believe that could be the case.

The bolded - can she possibly know this? A lot of the temple of Mythal stuff is seemingly set up to prove Morrigan's theories wrong - repeatedly, though both environment and dialogue, which is one of the reasons her choice to leap at the power annoys me and gets at the hubris angle; it's evident at that point that Morrigan despite her claims is not quite the expert on Elven lore she'd have you believe, and she has to be feeling that doubt herself as she draws closer to the Well (she does in fact), when there's an unknown element at play like that, my expectation of her was to err on the side of caution. The "oh preservation of such and such" angle doesn't really cover it because if she's dead, that's it, she's lost and she already has something major in her hand which she would want to protect.

 

Ashwind:

LOL When it comes to Morrigan…. NOTHING is watertight! Can she possibly know this? I can't say for sure… no. But she clearly knows about the Eluvian in the Arbor Wilds, that is several feet away from the Well. That particular Eluvian is clearly the waypoint for reaching the Well... is it such a stretch of the imagination that whatever Morrigan researched that lead her to that particular Eluvian in the Arbor Wilds... literally feet away from the Well, also noted what it led to??? I don't think it out of the realm of possibilities that a book that tells you how to get to Chicago (my hometown) might actually have some information about what's IN Chicago. Again, there is no certainty, but the Morrigan I hope is my Warden’s significant other would not have orphaned their child on Power! Power!! Power!!! Whim, or a near suicidal death-wish because she thinks she’s a horrible ****** of a mother whom her child would be better off without… which ultimately would lead him straight into Flemeth’s hands.

 

 

As an abstract idea, I can kind of buy it- more so at an earlier point in the timeline, but as you say, given the specific circumstances in which that choice occurs, it casts doubt on theory. Your alternate reading is of course perfectly valid. One thing though:

 

-Morrigan has been living beyond Flemeth's clutches for a good while, there is a possibility that over the years she's sort of become... forgetful of the real threat, in terms of being "settled" into a regular type of life. By that I mean, say living with HoF and later in Orlais, the idea that her mother is still out there somewhere trying to get at her, with the passage of time it becomes something of a distant memory. Do you think it's possible she's become a little complacent in looking over her shoulder so to speak? More so than a Morrigan with no ties would be? She's quite happy strutting around Orlais and indeed the subject of her mother never comes up until late in the game. That does to play to to Flemeth's lessons conversation from Origins - where by straying from the way that she was taught to live, she forgot that there are greater threats out there that what resides in the Orlesian court.

You are correct, the Eluvian incident happens right after the Well scene and with that setup. It's implied that the tampering with the WoS is what made Flemeth aware of Morrigan's presence, iirc - through her connection to the well, she was that watery figure I presume. The fact may be that in repurposing the ring her mother gave her (to allow Flemeth to track Morrigan) and giving it HoF, Flemeth really had no way to track her down and she only found her because somebody messed with the WoS. So in that act of overreaching herself, Morrigan brought down Flemeth's wrath upon her and Kieran.

You may even be able to make an argument that the whole thing was some kind of test for Morrigan, yes Flemeth did want the OGB soul, but I don't think it's ever stated with certainty whether Flemeth wished harm upon Kieran, obviously Morrigan's concerns on the matter are understandable but as she states herself, it could form some type of test, especially so with the motherly goddess aspect of Mythal. At a stretch, could you even say it was a partially altruistic act on her part?
 

Ashwind:

**Frowny Face** Hmmmmmmmm No, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. Surviving Flemeth’s apparent quality of upbringing is a life altering event. To me, that’s akin to a person surviving a horrendous illness… and having survived it, then winning the lotto and forgetting the ordeal that it was... not! I am loathed to say the C word, as having a mother who was lost to it, but no, I don’t see Morrigan who for a moment, would be lost in the love of the Warden and the opulence of the Orleisan court, who would forget, for a moment, the C that Flemeth’s upbringing was. The emotional, ‘…I am many things, but I will not be the mother you were to me,” tells me that Flemeth’s influence on a young Morrigan are scars that will never be far from her thoughts.

 

Just to play devil's advocate, that was her big moment with Flemeth where stuff really hits the fan and she's forced to deal with her feelings directly, there's no more time to muse on the topic or to second guess herself in that moment, it's raw emotion rather than the over-thinking that BurningLizard implies was going on in the period leading up to the WoS. I actually do like the theory, despite the sad implications it implies, you can argue Morrigan never really resolved her feelings with regards to how her mother treated here in Origins so it follows that she'd bring that baggage with her and have it influence her plotlines in DAI. She likely swore to be a better parent than Flemeth was to her well before that moment, true, but I think in her mind, it'd stick with her. But that in itself somewhat implies that she and HoF never talked any of this stuff during their time together, which to me seems like a stretch. Considering the change she's undergone between the games, if she still had that level of self-doubt in herself as a mother, I feel that HoF would have noticed it and (as the Origins camp counselor) supported her. If she was that much of a potential loose cannon, would HoF have felt comfortable leaving Kieran with her, what we see is just the opposite- he expresses great admiration, faith and trust in Morrigan in his letter. Added to that, Morrigan is both strong and willful within herself. This lends credence to Ash Wind's statement that Morrigan's dialogue pertaining to HoF is spoken in terms of admiration, respect and gratitude. Heck, the guy tracked her down and convinced her to let him accompany her, that's got to have left an impression on her and spoke to her own sense of self-worth.
 
The theory does have merit, whether it can be taken all the way to the finish line successfully, I'm not sure, but at the very least it does play to some of her Origins conversations quite well, plus it ties in with the whole "she says one thing but means another" thing (though she may have moved past that by the time DAI occurs), and I did quite enjoy running with it and exploring the possibilities.

 

Ashwind:

Again, I think (and correct me if I am wrong) with Human Kieran, she states early on “…he is truly a delight, he’s changed me, and I will defend him with my last breath.” Though some in the DAI Morrigan thread try to imply it, I don’t think there is much of a difference in Morrigan’s feelings toward normal Kieran and OGB Kieran. I certainly can be wrong, but I don’t think the fade scene with Morrigan is her epiphany moment. I don’t think that is her great point of awareness.

 

Early on, (OGB Kieran-romanced Warden-Went-Through-Eluvian), the IQ asks Morrigan “Are the 2 of you happy?” 

 

She corrects him, and states:  ‘The THREE of us…” and that’s her epiphany moment for me, the moment I had been waiting for since the first time I performed the Dark Ritual. Kieran isn’t an instrument to be acted upon, he isn’t a plan; he is an utmost and vital part of their family unit, whatever his destiny might be is secondary to his happiness and well-being.  DAI got my thumbs up with that line alone, that’s where you realize that the romance in DAO wasn’t in vain, and it may have taken some years, but she gets its now… she finally gets it.

 

Yeah, this is kind of the breaking point for me too which kills various theories stone dead. Regardless of her desire to preserve old magic, Morrigan is also all about self-preservation, she could acquire all kinds of old magic and knowledge but it won't mean anything if she's dead. This stuff needs to make sense of have some way of being logically reconciled. If the terrible price had been death then her son is likely screwed, to say nothing about how HoF would feel on the matter, what if he dies too? And all for the high-minded idea of preserving old magic, as Flemeth challenges her on - "to what end?" She has no answer to that question, the only answer she can proffer is that her son has grown to become more important to her than the aspect of the old god/magic which he carries, that much is clear as day and hammered home multiple times. So to that end I don't think anyone can conclude that preserving/obtaining old magic would be more important to Morrigan in that particular situation. The preservation aspect seems to be the background noise, or motivation for keeping her character popping up in relevant plot threads, I'm not saying it's not important to her, but to say that it's more important than her son severely contradicts in-game evidence.

 

Ashwind:

Ditto.
 

Even more so because they did such a great job with her everywhere else... But hey, if anyone can reconcile this with a 100% watertight theory, go for it.

 

Ashwind:

Indeed lol.

[Andres Hendrix]

I hadn't quite thought of it that way, but in a very sad, depressing sort of way, it kind of does work. Like you pointed out, at least prior to the Fade sequence with Kieran, Morrigan doesn't exactly seem like she has much confidence in her own personal abilities as a mother, despite seemingly like she's doing a fine job. So I could see it how you're seeing it where Morrigan in some twisted way fears becoming the sort of mother Flemeth was to her, even if it doesn't seem that's the case at all. Her mental damage at the hands of Flemeth for all those years really scarred her to such an extent that maybe Morrigan does think the best she can do is to simply not damage the kid, knowing first hand how shitty parenting a la Flemeth can affect someone's upbringing. Then when you get to the Well, she's maybe in a real nihilistic state of mind thinking that since she can't do much positive for Kieran, she may as well slurp up the Well to try and preserve some ancient knowledge or something.

 

The part of Morrigan where she fears being a terrible mother like Flemeth rings true but even still, having her basically act the way she does at the Well justified in her mind that way, almost makes her as bad a mother as Flemeth? If say, the Well had some instantly terrible Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade style "He chose...poorly" consequence for Morrigan, leaving Kieran an orphan (or basically an orphan with the HoF off who knows where out far west), what then? Morrigan's actions in that case seem supremely self centered and kind of insane since up to that point its seemed like her main goal has been to keep Kieran safe. Like when you get to the Fade, Flemeth brings up how she's been searching for Kieran and yet Morrigan has up to that point kept him safe away from Flemeth. If that's been a big goal for Morrigan, I can't see how her going all reckless at the Well of Sorrows and potentially orphaning Kieran does any good. But like you said, if you color everything Morrigan is doing here through the lens of her own craptastic upbringing with Flemeth, maybe she's looking at this a bit selfishly, thinking she is just one step away from being a horrible mom like she felt Flemeth was to her growing up.

 

 

That may be the case too.

 

I just have issues with Morrigan's sudden reveal at the Well of Sorrows how she seemingly ditches everything to run head long into the Well of Sorrows for this really high minded and philosophical goal of blindly preserving all ancient magical things ever, just because. That really lofty, almost abstract notion of wanting to preserve knowledge and things just for the hell of it kind of bugs me since it seemingly flies in the face of how pragmatic she so frequently comes across in Origins. I guess it comes down to why she wants to preserve all that knowledge. Is it for some specific goal? Not really, since I think she basically says she just wants to save the world from the mundane. Which just seems... mundane?

 

I'll touch on this in my big post which I'm trying to wrap up...

 

(These are all quotes from Terra, I don't know why they're not showing who I quoted from)

 

Given how Morrigan (by her accounts at least) had basically an abusive upbringing, it kind of makes you wonder whether its like how you read about how children who grow up in abusive households have a higher chance of becoming abusive parents themselves. And maybe in Morrigan's case, she has a certain amount of self awareness of this fact, to the point where it becomes (again) an issue of self doubt.  Or perhaps as kind of hinted at in the Fade scene, Morrigan did have some nasty or otherwise not great plan for Kieran originally but that changed as she actually raised him and started caring for him as her own child, not just some pawn or avenue for power or whatever her original plan may have been? And in reflecting on that, she carries a certain amount of ill will towards herself, maybe even reflecting back on how she's thought of how Flemeth seemingly raised her for Flemeth's own power by eventually stealing her body.

 

 

 

RIght- its maybe kind of how in your big post you mention the aspect of Morrigan having the high stakes and low stakes moments at the Well and later in the Fade with Flemeth. If we're looking at her willingness to drink from the Well as her almost giving in to her self doubt as a mother, as far as raising Kieran goes, then her slamming Flemeth in the Fade for being a terrible mother is sort of Morrigan's moment to pull a 180 and maybe realize that she isn't her mother and she can and will do a better job as a parent, even if she's not perfect doing it all the time.

 

 

 

 

Yup, that's kind of my take on things. I guess taking a step back and looking at the overall feel of the whole Mythal sequence as a whole here given this new POV on Morrigan's actions, it still feels like a reach. I mean, I'm on board with Morrigan's whole crippling self doubt and her fearing she'll wind up a terrible mother like Flemeth. But I still have trouble really reconciling her actions at the Well of Sorrows, at least as they're presented in the game. If a mother/romanced Morrigan's actions at the Well are in part largely fueled by her being so self hating and fearful of herself that she'd take a blind risk, that should have come across much more than what you actually get in the game, which is basically that Morrigan wants to preserve stuff for the hell of it.

 

I like this idea for her motivations as it does make sense, but I'm just wondering if we're not giving Gaider and company maybe a bit too much credit here.

 

Sure, that makes sense, at least so long as you have a Morrigan that was romanced and/or had a kid. Default Morrigan? Eh....

 

 

Cue Sad Morri pictures:

 

It's funny that your Inquisitor  can't deduce that Flemth is Mythal (especially if the Dread Wolf Himself says that your Inquisitor is the wisest person he has ever met). Varric told Cassandra that Hawke went to the Alter of Mythal in Sundermount, with the amulet (that contained Flemth). Presumably the Inquisitor read Cassandra's book, also if you get all of the history perks then the Inquisitor most likley knows the myth of Flemeth. Taking those thing into consideration, along with all the evidence strewn about in DA:I that Flemth and Mythal are connected, it is somewhat strange that you can't ask Morrigan "what if Mythal is Flemeth?" Morrigan probably would have destroyed the well herself lol.

[MisterJB]

Personally, I was not bothered by Morrigan's callousness at the Well of Sorrows. She herself says something to the effect that Kieran will be better off without her which ties nicely to the part of her personality that was damaged by Flemeth.
However, there is a difference between Kieran being able to live without her and she being able to do the same without him.

All that I would havê asked would be a response where Morrigan would say Kieran would havê his father altough the Calling would make that time short.

[Terra_Ex]

Personally, I was not bothered by Morrigan's callousness at the Well of Sorrows. She herself says something to the effect that Kieran will be better off without her which ties nicely to the part of her personality that was damaged by Flemeth.
However, there is a difference between Kieran being able to live without her and she being able to do the same without him.

All that I would havê asked would be a response where Morrigan would say Kieran would havê his father altough the Calling would make that time short.

That isn't a certainty though, in her own words, Kieran was left in her care within the scope of Inquisition. You could posit of course that Leliana as a friend of HoF could likely contact him if required but you know, the possibility still exists that HoF could die during his quest, so where does that leave their child then?



 
Just a few responses for now:
 

**Frowny Face** Hmmmmmmmm No, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. Surviving Flemeth’s apparent quality of upbringing is a life altering event. To me, that’s akin to a person surviving a horrendous illness… and having survived it, then winning the lotto and forgetting the ordeal that it was... not! I am loathed to say the C word, as having a mother who was lost to it, but no, I don’t see Morrigan who for a moment, would be lost in the love of the Warden and the opulence of the Orleisan court, who would forget, for a moment, the C that Flemeth’s upbringing was. The emotional, ‘…I am many things, but I will not be the mother you were to me,” tells me that Flemeth’s influence on a young Morrigan are scars that will never be far from her thoughts.

Don't misunderstand me, my views remain largely unchanged from what I originally outlined in my huge post, but adopting the mindset of supporting an idea while I'm writing a post about it allows me to better explore the possibilities. I'm willing to run with just about anything and see it through if it means we could better explain that WoS thing, just in case there is some aspect that we might have overlooked. In my follow-up post, I put forward several reasons why the "self-doubting" Morrigan theory has holes in it (as did you and Brock), centering on the fact that it contradicts HoF's statements on Morrigan in game and somewhat implies that HoF/Morrigan never talked about her feelings as a mother while raising Kieran, which is hard to believe. Plus of course in DAI you have her own (and Kieran's) stated desire to rejoin HoF in the immediate future, so there's that too.
 

Again, I think (and correct me if I am wrong) with Human Kieran, she states early on “…he is truly a delight, he’s changed me, and I will defend him with my last breath.” Though some in the DAI Morrigan thread try to imply it, I don’t think there is much of a difference in Morrigan’s feelings toward normal Kieran and OGB Kieran. I certainly can be wrong, but I don’t think the fade scene with Morrigan is her epiphany moment. I don’t think that is her great point of awareness.

Early on, (OGB Kieran-romanced Warden-Went-Through-Eluvian), the IQ asks Morrigan “Are the 2 of you happy?”

She corrects him, and states: ‘The THREE of us…” and that’s her epiphany moment for me, the moment I had been waiting for since the first time I performed the Dark Ritual. Kieran isn’t an instrument to be acted upon, he isn’t a plan; he is an utmost and vital part of their family unit, whatever his destiny might be is secondary to his happiness and well-being. DAI got my thumbs up with that line alone, that’s where you realize that the romance in DAO wasn’t in vain, and it may have taken some years, but she gets its now… she finally gets it.

To start off, we are of like mind on this point so I'm preaching to the choir in a sense, Morrigan cares for and treats Kieran the same regardless of whether he is the OGB or not. I can understand how you could view that earlier conversation as the epiphany moment, sure - I'm not going to downplay that conversation because it is indeed awesome and an incredible step forward for her. Perhaps rephrasing my take on it will help me elucidate why I think the Fade is still the more important moment of the two in terms of the bigger picture (this'll be long, so bear with me): the Fade sequence is where Morrigan asserts *to her mother* how Kieran factors into her life, not strictly an epiphany but defiantly putting her foot down on the matter and rattling off the bolded points you've made to her mother, while reaffirming them to herself. In that sense it's important because it answers the important question from DAO - how would Morrigan raise a child, especially if that child has power and her mother is still lurking in the shadows...

As for anyone telling you Morrigan views her two sons differently well, we and they must have played very different games. On more than one occasion Morrigan insinuates how he's changed her, as does Leliana but it's in the Fade scene and the concern she expresses for Kieran after they strip away the OGB layer from the equation that proves she cares for him just the same either way.

It's precisely because Flemeth proposes to her that she is free to take Kieran as-is (with OGB soul in tow) and continue to flee from her forever (which itself is possibly a nod to how Mythal hounds her enemies) or let her take what she wants and be free of her mother forever that makes it significant. The fact that in that moment, Kieran's power is inconsequential to Morrigan and she refuses to capitulate to Flemeth's demands is why for me, that's her pivotal moment, because although it's implied/stated earlier, here -it's Flemeth she's saying it to in that really high stakes moment. And that's why any theory that states Morrigan sees her OGB son as foremost a tool/likes him for his power is proven wrong. There may be a small element (by the time DAI rolls around) that she has perhaps some pride in the fact that *her son* has this sort of destiny type thing going on. This can also be interpreted simply as a parent being proud of their child in general, that was how I saw it when OGB Kieran was introduced. But even if we roll with that theory - when he disappears into the Eluvian, she immediately comes to regret that line of thinking and starts blaming herself for getting her son tangled up in the Old God Soul business as soon as you enter the Fade. Which is what I was sort of hinting at with my roundabout Flemeth = altruistic angle- in a sense, HoF, Morrigan and Kieran are all likely better off if the OGB part of the equation is removed, so I don't know, maybe Morrigan demonstrating that she understands that was the test? I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this idea, but maybe there's something there.

That's why for me (and for use in arguments like you mention above) Morrigan's actions in the Fade can be used as the absolute determining factor because it specifically tackles any lingering doubts one holds as to the OGB aspect while allowing Morrigan to assert what's really important to her in that big plot moment. To not see that you'd have to be going through the game with your eyes shut, it was the whole damn point of Kieran being in the game.

To come back to your earlier point, if her epiphany moment happens before the Well of Sorrows, that makes it harder to reconcile everything together IMO - in terms of if she's already had that epiphany that her son means the world to her and then follows it up with the Well of Sorrows business, you know the issue that brings up.

For Morrigan, taking a stand, voicing that to her mother and not running, given their relationship and the reason why OGB Kieran came into being, *that* is the important moment for her because it allows her to put everything into perspective and reach a pleasing conclusion (for the audience). So to me, yes she already knows it on some level but perhaps hasn't really had need to actually express it (in terms of actually *stating* that he is more than just the Old God Soul to her) and when she does, she surprises even herself, and given the context of the Fade scene and the after-sequence, her remarks carry more weight, by allowing them both to let go of that "destiny" angle, it proves the bond between them goes well beyond the original reason for his birth.

[MisterJB]

One should keep in mind that Kieran is a god. The thing Corypheus spends the entire game trying to accomplish, Kieran does it casually.

There is probably little chance of anyone being able to harm him.

[Terra_Ex]

One should keep in mind that Kieran is a god. The thing Corypheus spends the entire game trying to accomplish, Kieran does it casually.

There is probably little chance of anyone being able to harm him.

A god who cannot resist the "call" of his grandmother evidently.  A woman who can, with apparent ease, separate the aspect of godhood from him, leaving him as a... normal child. Putting aside the fact that Flemeth only raises daughters, how exactly did her most recent attempt at parenting go again?

I don't think we know enough about Kieran to determine that he'd be fine- did Morrigan impart the same harsh lessons unto him that Flemeth did to her in order to prepare him for such an eventuality, or did she come down on the opposite end and coddle him? Somewhere in middle maybe? The character description notes I think imply he is unusually bright but again, it's shown that Flemeth has a power over him thus if Morrigan was out of the picture who could say what might have happened, she herself seems quite worried about it after returning from the Arbor Wilds. As a hypothetical, what would your opinion be if Flemeth had moved faster, Kieran had died? Morrigan would have descended into misery and then have to explain to HoF (offscreen of course) how her selfish action not only undermined a great personal goal they both shared for the past few years (protecting and raising their son) and got their child killed. So, that little out of character moment, had things played out even slightly differently, could have major repercussions on a personal level for both Morrigan and HoF and sort of retroactively disrupts the little story the player built for themselves from DAO>DAI.

 

We're not iterating on this to be annoying btw, we genuinely want to determine an answer which we feel is acceptable.

[BurningLizard]

A god who cannot resist the "call" of his grandmother evidently.  A woman who can, with apparent ease, separate the aspect of godhood from him, leaving him as a... normal child. Putting aside the fact that Flemeth only raises daughters, how exactly did her most recent attempt at parenting go again?

I don't think we know enough about Kieran to determine that he'd be fine- did Morrigan impart the same harsh lessons unto him that Flemeth did to her in order to prepare him for such an eventuality, or did she come down on the opposite end and coddle him? Somewhere in middle maybe? The character description notes I think imply he is unusually bright but again, it's shown that Flemeth has a power over him thus if Morrigan was out of the picture who could say what might have happened, she herself seems quite worried about it after returning from the Arbor Wilds. As a hypothetical, what would your opinion be if Flemeth had moved faster, Kieran had died? Morrigan would have descended into misery and then have to explain to HoF (offscreen of course) how her selfish action not only undermined a great personal goal they both shared for the past few years (protecting and raising their son) and got their child killed. So, that little out of character moment, had things played out even slightly differently, could have major repercussions on a personal level for both Morrigan and HoF and sort of retroactively disrupts the little story the player built for themselves from DAO>DAI.

 

We're not iterating on this to be annoying btw, we genuinely want to determine an answer which we feel is acceptable.

Man, reading your posts keeps giving me idea for short fanfic scenes, because now I really want to see that scene where Morrigan has to explain to the HoF play out.

[Terra_Ex]

The part of Morrigan where she fears being a terrible mother like Flemeth rings true but even still, having her basically act the way she does at the Well justified in her mind that way, almost makes her as bad a mother as Flemeth?

Yep, although I don't totally agree with the theory and having thought on it some more, I'm still sticking with on my original take on things, elements of self-doubt are there true enough but for me the question is: would Morrigan let self-doubt crush her or instead use it as a life lesson and resolve to do better? You can easily infer that Morrigan herself recognises that doubt within herself and uses it as fuel to always strive towards being a better mother to her child than Flemeth was to her. That explanation covers the self-doubt aspect, marries it with her strength of character/survivor theme and let's her use it as a strength. That seems more like Morrigan, in a sense that she doesn't let her perceived weaknesses define her actions and that she's come to care deeply about those people in her life that brought about the change in her.
 

If say, the Well had some instantly terrible Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade style "He chose...poorly"

Ah, I have missed these random youtube videos that you used to work into your posts, good times
 

Morrigan's actions in that case seem supremely self centered and kind of insane since up to that point its seemed like her main goal has been to keep Kieran safe. Like when you get to the Fade, Flemeth brings up how she's been searching for Kieran and yet Morrigan has up to that point kept him safe away from Flemeth. If that's been a big goal for Morrigan, I can't see how her going all reckless at the Well of Sorrows and potentially orphaning Kieran does any good. But like you said, if you color everything Morrigan is doing here through the lens of her own craptastic upbringing with Flemeth, maybe she's looking at this a bit selfishly, thinking she is just one step away from being a horrible mom like she felt Flemeth was to her growing up.

Yeah, that's a good counter argument and this is another reason why the Well sticks out like it does. As Flemeth points out, Morrigan has seemingly done a sterling job of hiding both herself and Kieran over the years, so to just randomly out of the blue decide that grabbing this particular power is more important than that, it doesn't really make sense. If she's been in Orlais for years, presumably using the resources available to her there to research and preserve old magic, why hasn't she enacted similar mad schemes in the past? Is she doing this now to help win the day, so to speak, could you say that since HoF could theoretically be threatened by Corypheus, helping take him out benefits her as well? I'd like to believe that could be a factor but we have the whole issue where BioWare won't let romance influence key story moments so that seems doubtful... Like I said above, on further consideration I think self-doubt/hate colours her actions to a point, but she'd turn it into strength rather than let it consume her, thus her comment at the Well regarding Kieran being better off without her maybe shouldn't be read into beyond that.

Coming back to my big post where I talk about how the whole thing is almost set up for Morrigan to take a fall - the title of that quest- "What Pride have wrought", is that a reference to her? As a play on the proverb "Pride hath a fall," in that moment she's so overly wrapped up in her own pride as the "elven lore expert" coupled with the lofty notion of preservation (without a goal, merely the means itself, rather than the end). In terms of romanced / motherly Morrigan it's forced and it comes back to how I talked on the devs really wanting to pull the rug out from under her but they seemingly had to make all Morrigan variants act in a pretty stupid and naive way to do it.
 

I just have issues with Morrigan's sudden reveal at the Well of Sorrows how she seemingly ditches everything to run head long into the Well of Sorrows for this really high minded and philosophical goal of blindly preserving all ancient magical things ever, just because. That really lofty, almost abstract notion of wanting to preserve knowledge and things just for the hell of it kind of bugs me since it seemingly flies in the face of how pragmatic she so frequently comes across in Origins. I guess it comes down to why she wants to preserve all that knowledge. Is it for some specific goal? Not really, since I think she basically says she just wants to save the world from the mundane. Which just seems... mundane?

Maybe this preservation thing harks back to Origins and her exploration of the wilds in animal form. Perhaps the key is that Morrigan sees the world through different eyes. Like how she mentions I think running through the Kocari Wilds in animal form, her desire to roam beyond the wilds, and her love of cities and other wonders, etc. If you go with that as a basic premise, you can kind of follow through on how she might not want unique "wonders" to slip away, yet in reaching for the Well, she loses Urthemial, so yeah... Maybe there's a sort of back to nature element to things, in the sense that there's something of a wild streak to her, perhaps she sees a sort of different beauty in the world that others do not appreciate? I dunno, like you say the wanton need to preserve things just because does kind of work against the pragmatic aspects of her personality.
 

Given how Morrigan (by her accounts at least) had basically an abusive upbringing, it kind of makes you wonder whether its like how you read about how children who grow up in abusive households have a higher chance of becoming abusive parents themselves. And maybe in Morrigan's case, she has a certain amount of self awareness of this fact, to the point where it becomes (again) an issue of self doubt. Or perhaps as kind of hinted at in the Fade scene, Morrigan did have some nasty or otherwise not great plan for Kieran originally but that changed as she actually raised him and started caring for him as her own child, not just some pawn or avenue for power or whatever her original plan may have been? And in reflecting on that, she carries a certain amount of ill will towards herself, maybe even reflecting back on how she's thought of how Flemeth seemingly raised her for Flemeth's own power by eventually stealing her body.

Yes, absolutely on the self-awareness comment, sort of already covered it in my earlier quotes. On the bolded point, one other interpretation is that she sees the Well as a sort of means to an end and since she's no longer willing to use Kieran to achieve it (the original plan), the Well's knowledge serves the same purpose maybe? But it does seem that Morrigan has sort of settled into a research & preserve type of mentality since after WH, mellowed I suppose, so much so that her original plan whatever it may be was abandoned due to his influence on her? A pertinent line from the game supporting the fact that she has changed her mind/plan would be - "In every way. At first, Kieran was a means to an end, but as he grew..." The simple fact that she was once considering using him as a means to end would play on her mind and also presumably make her reconsider doing the same/similar thing in the future. It really just ties and flows into the idea that by the time she faces off with her mother, she's a different person and wants no part in her mother's designs.
 

RIght- its maybe kind of how in your big post you mention the aspect of Morrigan having the high stakes and low stakes moments at the Well and later in the Fade with Flemeth. If we're looking at her willingness to drink from the Well as her almost giving in to her self doubt as a mother, as far as raising Kieran goes, then her slamming Flemeth in the Fade for being a terrible mother is sort of Morrigan's moment to pull a 180 and maybe realize that she isn't her mother and she can and will do a better job as a parent, even if she's not perfect doing it all the time.

Indeed, as a theory it does tie into (or at least compliment) my original post fairly well, I'd say particularly so when we bring in the bolded section, which I talked about above.
 

Yup, that's kind of my take on things. I guess taking a step back and looking at the overall feel of the whole Mythal sequence as a whole here given this new POV on Morrigan's actions, it still feels like a reach. I mean, I'm on board with Morrigan's whole crippling self doubt and her fearing she'll wind up a terrible mother like Flemeth. But I still have trouble really reconciling her actions at the Well of Sorrows, at least as they're presented in the game. If a mother/romanced Morrigan's actions at the Well are in part largely fueled by her being so self hating and fearful of herself that she'd take a blind risk, that should have come across much more than what you actually get in the game, which is basically that Morrigan wants to preserve stuff for the hell of it.

Agreed, I'm choosing to keep the self-doubting elements as a subtle subtext - it is there - "I never thought of myself as a mother, Inquisitor. I had no good example to follow.", but one that she has largely worked through by DAI (which ties in with the lines Ash Wind mentioned above) - "More than you can know. Kieran changed me. I will protect him to my last breath, if I must." and "In every way. At first, Kieran was a means to an end, but as he grew...") These are all direct quotes, it seems to me that all motherly Morrigans have the same resolve regarding Kieran.

It'd nag at her from time to time, but I don't think she'd let it keep her down or from doing right by her child. Thus the problem of the Well remains... Seems to me that BioWare needs to let some of those pesky old player choices and romance elements actually effect the big story moments, lest all these stated motivations begin to contradict each other.
 

I like this idea for her motivations as it does make sense, but I'm just wondering if we're not giving Gaider and company maybe a bit too much credit here.

Sure, I've actually had this exact point as a closing statement for many of the posts I've made but I've thought better of it each time. However, if we are reaching "indoctrination theory" levels of reaching in terms of trying to reconcile this, then maybe the answer really is what we originally thought - it's an out of character moment used to force a plot point. In which case one can't hold it against the character.
 
I have my high/low stakes interpretation on things which for me, fits fairly well, Ash has his idea on how she may have hidden knowledge on the well beforehand, which is somewhat believable too. Both though run into the problem of plot-dumb Morrigan, insofar as our lovely Elven Lore expert fails to make several deductions based on the available evidence in the temple of Mythal. Now a Morrigan with no power or ties, sure, I can buy into it, she'd take the risk, but the other Morrigan, she has more at stake, too much to risk on a gamble, I'd say, which is why her handwaving doesn't work for us. That it is the only thing in the game we can't reconcile with the whole suggests it is a contrivance and instance of plot hammer>logic. Or an instance of plot-induced stupidity, if you like.  Which is sad because, if they'd have just had her refuse to do it after consideration - 2/3 extra lines, you'd lose the choice as the Inquisitor but she'd have been much more reactive to her past actions/choices and you'd have tangible evidence of your choices rippling through multiple games and we've be having a very different conversation.
 

Cue Sad Morri pictures:

There's enough sadness in the thread already with just the text without adding pictures into the mix
 

Man, reading your posts keeps giving me idea for short fanfic scenes, because now I really want to see that scene where Morrigan has to explain to the HoF play out.

I'm glad they inspire you so I'm toying with the idea of penning something myself, these discussions have scratched that itch. Not sure I'll go for such a dark scenario though, likely a series of shorts to fill in the blanks of some key moments from Morrigan and HoF's POVs from WH through to post DAI, if I follow through with it that is.

[Naphtali]

Yep, although I don't totally agree with the theory and having thought on it some more, I'm still sticking with on my original take on things, elements of self-doubt are there true enough but for me the question is: would Morrigan let self-doubt crush her or instead use it as a life lesson and resolve to do better? You can easily infer that Morrigan herself recognises that doubt within herself and uses it as fuel to always strive towards being a better mother to her child than Flemeth was to her. That explanation covers the self-doubt aspect, marries it with her strength of character/survivor theme and let's her use it as a strength. That seems more like Morrigan, in a sense that she doesn't let her perceived weaknesses define her actions and that she's come to care deeply about those people in her life that brought about the change in her.
 

Ah, I have missed these random youtube videos that you used to work into your posts, good times
 

Yeah, that's a good counter argument and this is another reason why the Well sticks out like it does. As Flemeth points out, Morrigan has seemingly done a sterling job of hiding both herself and Kieran over the years, so to just randomly out of the blue decide that grabbing this particular power is more important than that, it doesn't really make sense. If she's been in Orlais for years, presumably using the resources available to her there to research and preserve old magic, why hasn't she enacted similar mad schemes in the past? Is she doing this now to help win the day, so to speak, could you say that since HoF could theoretically be threatened by Corypheus, helping take him out benefits her as well? I'd like to believe that could be a factor but we have the whole issue where BioWare won't let romance influence key story moments so that seems doubtful... Like I said above, on further consideration I think self-doubt/hate colours her actions to a point, but she'd turn it into strength rather than let it consume her, thus her comment at the Well regarding Kieran being better off without her maybe shouldn't be read into beyond that.

Coming back to my big post where I talk about how the whole thing is almost set up for Morrigan to take a fall - the title of that quest- "What Pride have wrought", is that a reference to her? As a play on the proverb "Pride hath a fall," in that moment she's so overly wrapped up in her own pride as the "elven lore expert" coupled with the lofty notion of preservation (without a goal, merely the means itself, rather than the end). In terms of romanced / motherly Morrigan it's forced and it comes back to how I talked on the devs really wanting to pull the rug out from under her but they seemingly had to make all Morrigan variants act in a pretty stupid and naive way to do it.
 

Maybe this preservation thing harks back to Origins and her exploration of the wilds in animal form. Perhaps the key is that Morrigan sees the world through different eyes. Like how she mentions I think running through the Kocari Wilds in animal form, her desire to roam beyond the wilds, and her love of cities and other wonders, etc. If you go with that as a basic premise, you can kind of follow through on how she might not want unique "wonders" to slip away, yet in reaching for the Well, she loses Urthemial, so yeah... Maybe there's a sort of back to nature element to things, in the sense that there's something of a wild streak to her, perhaps she sees a sort of different beauty in the world that others do not appreciate? I dunno, like you say the wanton need to preserve things just because does kind of work against the pragmatic aspects of her personality.
 

Yes, absolutely on the self-awareness comment, sort of already covered it in my earlier quotes. On the bolded point, one other interpretation is that she sees the Well as a sort of means to an end and since she's no longer willing to use Kieran to achieve it (the original plan), the Well's knowledge serves the same purpose maybe? But it does seem that Morrigan has sort of settled into a research & preserve type of mentality since after WH, mellowed I suppose, so much so that her original plan whatever it may be was abandoned due to his influence on her? A pertinent line from the game supporting the fact that she has changed her mind/plan would be - "In every way. At first, Kieran was a means to an end, but as he grew..." The simple fact that she was once considering using him as a means to end would play on her mind and also presumably make her reconsider doing the same/similar thing in the future. It really just ties and flows into the idea that by the time she faces off with her mother, she's a different person and wants no part in her mother's designs.
 

Indeed, as a theory it does tie into (or at least compliment) my original post fairly well, I'd say particularly so when we bring in the bolded section, which I talked about above.
 

Agreed, I'm choosing to keep the self-doubting elements as a subtle subtext - it is there - "I never thought of myself as a mother, Inquisitor. I had no good example to follow.", but one that she has largely worked through by DAI (which ties in with the lines Ash Wind mentioned above) - "More than you can know. Kieran changed me. I will protect him to my last breath, if I must." and "In every way. At first, Kieran was a means to an end, but as he grew...") These are all direct quotes, it seems to me that all motherly Morrigans have the same resolve regarding Kieran.

It'd nag at her from time to time, but I don't think she'd let it keep her down or from doing right by her child. Thus the problem of the Well remains... Seems to me that BioWare needs to let some of those pesky old player choices and romance elements actually effect the big story moments, lest all these stated motivations begin to contradict each other.
 

Sure, I've actually had this exact point as a closing statement for many of the posts I've made but I've thought better of it each time. However, if we are reaching "indoctrination theory" levels of reaching in terms of trying to reconcile this, then maybe the answer really is what we originally thought - it's an out of character moment used to force a plot point. In which case one can't hold it against the character.
 
I have my high/low stakes interpretation on things which for me, fits fairly well, Ash has his idea on how she may have hidden knowledge on the well beforehand, which is somewhat believable too. Both though run into the problem of plot-dumb Morrigan, insofar as our lovely Elven Lore expert fails to make several deductions based on the available evidence in the temple of Mythal. Now a Morrigan with no power or ties, sure, I can buy into it, she'd take the risk, but the other Morrigan, she has more at stake, too much to risk on a gamble, I'd say, which is why her handwaving doesn't work for us. That it is the only thing in the game we can't reconcile with the whole suggests it is a contrivance and instance of plot hammer>logic. Or an instance of plot-induced stupidity, if you like.  Which is sad because, if they'd have just had her refuse to do it after consideration - 2/3 extra lines, you'd lose the choice as the Inquisitor but she'd have been much more reactive to her past actions/choices and you'd have tangible evidence of your choices rippling through multiple games and we've be having a very different conversation.
 

There's enough sadness in the thread already with just the text without adding pictures into the mix
 

I'm glad they inspire you so I'm toying with the idea of penning something myself, these discussions have scratched that itch. Not sure I'll go for such a dark scenario though, likely a series of shorts to fill in the blanks of some key moments from Morrigan and HoF's POVs from WH through to post DAI, if I follow through with it that is.

Nice to see another Xenogears fan here, outside of myself I thought they were extinct

[Terra_Ex]

Nice to see another Xenogears fan here, outside of myself I thought they were extinct

Heh, we just went out of fashion, much like the Xeno series itself. Terrific game though.

[Terra_Ex]

So I found this little kinda-recent tidbit from Gaider on Morrigan while browsing the interwebz which I thought might interest people based on our recent discussion here. In addition to reaffirming that we have her pegged correctly, it also touches on the fact that she wasn't originally intended as a romance, which kind of gets at that whole Origins "I must leave" ending sequence of events during the DR. Here's the excerpt, don't think we've discussed it here before, but if so, ignore me and carry on:

“Trying to figure out what the romance is…sometimes it requires you to sit back and think about the character a slightly different way because you’ve always thought about them [one way]… Morrigan initially was not supposed to be a romance. I had to change the way I thought about her… [I saw her] as her having built up this sort of armor around herself – that there was a different person underneath. One that she purposely had to squelch because she thought that [it] was weak, because that was what she had been taught. Suddenly when I thought about that, it was, ‘Oh, that’s an interesting place to go.’

“You could almost sleep with Morrigan immediately – before you even got to know her at all – and that was part of her thing… She expected that and right afterwards it’d be over, but you could then scratch beneath the surface and break through her armor.”

 

[Ash Wind]

Terra_Ex Wrote:

To start off, we are of like mind on this point so I'm preaching to the choir in a sense, Morrigan cares for and treats Kieran the same regardless of whether he is the OGB or not. I can understand how you could view that earlier conversation as the epiphany moment, sure - I'm not going to downplay that conversation because it is indeed awesome and an incredible step forward for her. Perhaps rephrasing my take on it will help me elucidate why I think the Fade is still the more important moment of the two in terms of the bigger picture (this'll be long, so bear with me): the Fade sequence is where Morrigan asserts *to her mother* how Kieran factors into her life, not strictly an epiphany but defiantly putting her foot down on the matter and rattling off the bolded points you've made to her mother, while reaffirming them to herself. In that sense it's important because it answers the important question from DAO - how would Morrigan raise a child, especially if that child has power and her mother is still lurking in the shadows...

As for anyone telling you Morrigan views her two sons differently well, we and they must have played very different games. On more than one occasion Morrigan insinuates how he's changed her, as does Leliana but it's in the Fade scene and the concern she expresses for Kieran after they strip away the OGB layer from the equation that proves she cares for him just the same either way.

It's precisely because Flemeth proposes to her that she is free to take Kieran as-is (with OGB soul in tow) and continue to flee from her forever (which itself is possibly a nod to how Mythal hounds her enemies) or let her take what she wants and be free of her mother forever that makes it significant. The fact that in that moment, Kieran's power is inconsequential to Morrigan and she refuses to capitulate to Flemeth's demands is why for me, that's her pivotal moment, because although it's implied/stated earlier, here -it's Flemeth she's saying it to in that really high stakes moment. And that's why any theory that states Morrigan sees her OGB son as foremost a tool/likes him for his power is proven wrong. There may be a small element (by the time DAI rolls around) that she has perhaps some pride in the fact that *her son* has this sort of destiny type thing going on. This can also be interpreted simply as a parent being proud of their child in general, that was how I saw it when OGB Kieran was introduced. But even if we roll with that theory - when he disappears into the Eluvian, she immediately comes to regret that line of thinking and starts blaming herself for getting her son tangled up in the Old God Soul business as soon as you enter the Fade. Which is what I was sort of hinting at with my roundabout Flemeth = altruistic angle- in a sense, HoF, Morrigan and Kieran are all likely better off if the OGB part of the equation is removed, so I don't know, maybe Morrigan demonstrating that she understands that was the test? I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this idea, but maybe there's something there.

That's why for me (and for use in arguments like you mention above) Morrigan's actions in the Fade can be used as the absolute determining factor because it specifically tackles any lingering doubts one holds as to the OGB aspect while allowing Morrigan to assert what's really important to her in that big plot moment. To not see that you'd have to be going through the game with your eyes shut, it was the whole damn point of Kieran being in the game.

To come back to your earlier point, if her epiphany moment happens before the Well of Sorrows, that makes it harder to reconcile everything together IMO - in terms of if she's already had that epiphany that her son means the world to her and then follows it up with the Well of Sorrows business, you know the issue that brings up.

For Morrigan, taking a stand, voicing that to her mother and not running, given their relationship and the reason why OGB Kieran came into being, *that* is the important moment for her because it allows her to put everything into perspective and reach a pleasing conclusion (for the audience). So to me, yes she already knows it on some level but perhaps hasn't really had need to actually express it (in terms of actually *stating* that he is more than just the Old God Soul to her) and when she does, she surprises even herself, and given the context of the Fade scene and the after-sequence, her remarks carry more weight, by allowing them both to let go of that "destiny" angle, it proves the bond between them goes well beyond the original reason for his birth.

 

Ashwind:

First off, sorry for the horrible quote, not sure what happened

 

Oh no... don't get me wrong, there's no doubt that the Fade scene is the more important scene. Its the climatic scene in the Morrigan - Flemeth relationship and the points you make I agree with. Its almost as the two scenes book-end each other... whenever the epiphany moment comes... the scene I mention, she makes the promise (about Kieran), and in the Fade scene she follows through on that promise.

 

Again it does make it hard to regoncile her attitude at the WoS. But, that maybe just one of those lost in the various world states thing. During a convo with IQ, Morrigan says after Cory has been defeated, she's going to find the Warden. After denying her the WoS she's going on her way, without a clue as to where she is going. Maybe its one of those things the devs didn't feel the need to customize to various world states.

 

What the WoS scene needed was a viable third option, to allow the PC the ability to still make a choice while allowing Morrigan to be reluctant. Solas was the obvious choice, but he was written to want nothing to do with it. As you have stated previously, Morrigan's responses should have been tailored to her current state. But alas... I can still play the scene with the volume down and the subtitles turned off.