I've always assumed that the easiest explanation is that Morrigan being pregnant or not when she tells you about the dark ritual depends entirely on whether you accept or not. Though I think it's also possible that if she's in a romance and already pregnant, then who she performs the ritual with doesn't matter, what matters is the ritual, and if we assume the child had only just recently been conceived so it was young enough for the ritual to work? So if a romanced Warden DOES have Morrigan perform the ritual with someone else (blasphemy) then perhaps that means it's not actually Loghain or Alistair's kid, it is the Warden's kid but the performance of the ritual changes the fetus to something that can accept the soul. Which of course doesn't add up to the "Performed at the eve of battle" part of the ritual. Unless that wasn't actually part of the requirements, but Morrigan thought it was.
You can't assume that though, say a few nice words and toss a gift or two her way right after Lothering and you can sleep with her. Considering that's the very start of the journey and it lasts ~1 year as I recall, you'd have to be playing fast and loose with biology for that to work out. That also would put a very different spin on what we originally thought was the child's soul being overwritten by the OGB soul.
Where Urthemiel ends and Kieran begins is an interesting question.
Unlike Flemeth and Mythal, Urthemiel can be removed without, seemingly, hurting Kieran.
So, was Urthemiel always a separate entity living within Kieran similar to Kurama and Naruto? Kieran never speaks in the plural.
He says "I saw your blood" which seems to indicate he instinctively knows secrets like "the titans"
My best guess is that it functions somewhat like the "Well of Sorrows". Urthemiel's voice whispers into Kieran's mind but, since he has never known anything else, he does not acknowledge it as a separate entity. It's just part of him.
You can't assume that though, say a few nice words and toss a gift or two her way right after Lothering and you can sleep with her. Considering that's the very start of the journey and it lasts ~1 year as I recall, you'd have to be playing fast and loose with biology for that to work out. That also would put a very different spin on what we originally thought was the child's soul being overwritten by the OGB soul.
If only the game forbid a romanced Warden from choosing the "let someone else do the ritual" then we wouldn't have this confusion. I still agree that she's not pregnant until you either accept or refuse the ritual makes the most sense, while not making any sense in world.
This talk reminded me of something, in Origins you had the whole Morrigan heading off to Orlais (or in the direction of) with child epilogue. I think Gaider later demoted all epilogues to rumours and hearsay yet ultimately a lot of them still tally up with later events. However, Morrigan says that she had Kieran before she went to Orlais, so was she just hiding/hanging out in Ferelden somewhere between the end of Origins and WH or was she just roving around southern Thedas with no destination in mind?
This talk reminded me of something, in Origins you had the whole Morrigan heading off to Orlais (or in the direction of) with child epilogue. I think Gaider later demoted all epilogues to rumours and hearsay yet ultimately a lot of them still tally up with later events. However, Morrigan says that she had Kieran before she went to Orlais, so was she just hiding/hanging out in Ferelden somewhere between the end of Origins and WH or was she just roving around southern Thedas with no destination in mind?
I think she had Kieran on the road.
What I wonder is: in Witch Hunt, where is Kieran? Did she leave him with someone? In this case, with whom?
I wonder about so many little details in this game. Like how did Morrigan and warden lived in the crossroads? I didn't see any houses there, did they build one? How did eat in that place? Was Kieran there with them?
Where Urthemiel ends and Kieran begins is an interesting question. Unlike Flemeth and Mythal, Urthemiel can be removed without, seemingly, hurting Kieran. So, was Urthemiel always a separate entity living within Kieran similar to Kurama and Naruto? Kieran never speaks in the plural. He says "I saw your blood" which seems to indicate he instinctively knows secrets like "the titans"
My best guess is that it functions somewhat like the "Well of Sorrows". Urthemiel's voice whispers into Kieran's mind but, since he has never known anything else, he does not acknowledge it as a separate entity. It's just part of him.
I think the whole nature of souls in DA is an interesting question in itself. Was Kieran, as the OGB, as he existed in Inquisition a mistake? Did Morrigan forsee him basically having two souls in one body? According to Morrigan in Origins, isn't that kind of not supposed to be possible? Isn't that the whole problem facing a Grey Warden when they kill the Archdemon- that the Archdemon's soul is drawn to the Warden but since 2 souls can't inhabit one body, they just cancel each other out?
So then how do you reconcile Kieran seemingly having his regular normal child's soul plus the soul of Urthemiel? Is that just another instance of Inquisition Morrigan screwing up and dealing with unforseen consequences to her actions? My impression in Origins when Morrigan was explaining the Dark Ritual was basically that since the fetus/baby from the DR would be so new, it basically did not have a soul yet and thus was as much a blank slate for the Old God soul to travel to as any soulless darkspawn. That seemingly wasn't the case.
Then you have the whole nature of how Flemeth is able to yank Urthemiel's soul from Kieran. How did she do that? Does that mean Flemeth now has 3 souls in her body at one time? Was Mythal's soul always so intertwined with Flemeth? Or is Flemeth's state more akin to demonic possession a la Anders and Justice where its a gradual process? Then again, how would the whole body snatching process go with Flemeth and her daughters with respect to souls? Is the host soul just destroyed by Flemeth or is it kind of absorbed by her?
I'm mostly wondering whether these are questions and issues that the writers considered and had ironed out or if they're just playing fast and loose with their own rules they established in Origins.
This talk reminded me of something, in Origins you had the whole Morrigan heading off to Orlais (or in the direction of) with child epilogue. I think Gaider later demoted all epilogues to rumours and hearsay yet ultimately a lot of them still tally up with later events. However, Morrigan says that she had Kieran before she went to Orlais, so was she just hiding/hanging out in Ferelden somewhere between the end of Origins and WH or was she just roving around southern Thedas with no destination in mind?
Hmmm... when does Morrigan say she had Kieran exactly in Inquisition? My memory on that is a bit rusty but obviously Morrigan has had Kieran by Witch Hunt, which is ~1 year post the end of Origins, right? And from what we can gather it seems like Morrigan has been on a wild goose chase hunting down all sorts of Eluvian and ancient lore post Origins, which eventually leads her to Orlais, I suppose.
I guess I imagine Morrigan roved around southern Thedas post Origins gathering up Eluvian stuff, has Kieran, Witch Hunt takes place, she goes to the Crossroads and wherever else the Eluvian leads with the Warden and raises Kieran there for a while, then maybe a couple years of that, insinuates herself into the Orlesian Court.
All that said, we do have the World of Thedas Volume 2 book coming out pretty soon. And it's supposed to focus more on the characters, so it will be interesting to see what they have there about Morrigan, Flemeth, Kieran and those guys, since it's got to be written from a pretty default/generic POV, since they can't account for all the variables from PC's in the games.
I think she had Kieran on the road. What I wonder is: in Witch Hunt, where is Kieran? Did she leave him with someone? In this case, with whom?
I wonder about so many little details in this game. Like how did Morrigan and warden lived in the crossroads? I didn't see any houses there, did they build one? How did eat in that place? Was Kieran there with them?
Just ignore me
Yeah, maybe there is a Crossroads Daycare that Morrigan dropped Kieran off at before heading to the Dragonbone Wastes. Or that's just more fuel to the fire that Morrigan can be kind of a crappy mother, leaving Kieran (who is maybe only a year or so old?) alone in the Crossroads for who knows how long while she's out and about getting ancient knowledge for the sake of getting knowledge.
Yeah, maybe there is a Crossroads Daycare that Morrigan dropped Kieran off at before heading to the Dragonbone Wastes. Or that's just more fuel to the fire that Morrigan can be kind of a crappy mother, leaving Kieran (who is maybe only a year or so old?) alone in the Crossroads for who knows how long while she's out and about getting ancient knowledge for the sake of getting knowledge.
Why do you think she let HoF go with her through the Eluvian? He's now a stay-off-screen stay-at-home dad.
I don't believe DAO ever explicitly stated that two souls can't inhabit the same body. Rather, the existence of Abominations should prove that they can.
What Riordan says is "A darkspawn is a soulless vessel but a Grey Warden is not." and now Flemeth says "A soul is not force upon the unwilling."
So, it's possible it's the fact the soul of the Archdemon enters the body without an invitation that leads to the two souls mutually destroying each other. Corypheus, somehow, breaks the rule.
Maybe he uses his dominion over the Taint to force the Warden to allow his soul in, I don't know.
I assumed after DAO, Morrigan traveled around gaining knowledge on Eluvians and whatnot, had Kieran, maybe traveled a little more and then we have the events of Witch Hunt. Assuming the Warden goes with her through the Eluvian, they spend a couple of months there and maybe end up in Orlais. We have no idea how long it took her to make her way into the Imperial Court, but we know she appeared in 9:37. We can assume this was probably around the time the HoF departed on his quest. So there's about five years to play with between the end of Witch Hunt and her debut in the Imperial Court.
Morrigan found the lead to combat the Calling, and I presume that sort of information can't be obtained by sitting in the Crossroads for five years. She also says it was only a respite, so it was brief period of time and not a sum of years.
As far as getting food in the Crossroads goes, maybe the World of Thedas Volume 2 will show us how to paint sheds and bake bread in an interdenominational plain. That kind of information could save your life.
Where Urthemiel ends and Kieran begins is an interesting question.
Unlike Flemeth and Mythal, Urthemiel can be removed without, seemingly, hurting Kieran.
So, was Urthemiel always a separate entity living within Kieran similar to Kurama and Naruto? Kieran never speaks in the plural.
He says "I saw your blood" which seems to indicate he instinctively knows secrets like "the titans"
My best guess is that it functions somewhat like the "Well of Sorrows". Urthemiel's voice whispers into Kieran's mind but, since he has never known anything else, he does not acknowledge it as a separate entity. It's just part of him.
I think, at least in retrospect, Kieran has been rewritten to have always Kieran, as Flemeth remarks in the Fade "...he carries with him a part of something that once was..." or something to that effect. The emphasis on the word carries, its not him, its something he carries. As it stands now, I believe the current version of events is that Kieran has his own soul and has always been Kieran, and also captured and carried the Old God soul, which has a profound effect on him if it happens. He never speaks in the plural, but upon returning from the fade, he does say, "I feel lonely." as if he's lost a good friend, not a part of himself.
On another OGB point, as has mentioned in earlier posts, the development of the OGB seems to have changed. Morrigan says when she proposes the DR, "...it will become something else, a child, born with the soul of an Old God." Which I presumed by the what the way the sentence was worded that the Old God soul would be Kieran's soul. Retcon? I don't know, but I do like the thought that has been advanced here that its possible Morrigan screwed up the DR. Again, I don't know if at the conclusion of DAO that the OGB story was completely thought out, would be interesting to know what, if any, was the original plan. Still, while I diskike the anti-climaic close of the whole DR\OGB story, I can't complain too much, my Wardens got to live and they and Morrigan now have a fairly normal child, even if it was one unusual route.
I think she had Kieran on the road. What I wonder is: in Witch Hunt, where is Kieran? Did she leave him with someone? In this case, with whom?
I wonder about so many little details in this game. Like how did Morrigan and warden lived in the crossroads? I didn't see any houses there, did they build one? How did eat in that place? Was Kieran there with them?
Just ignore me
You're in the Morri thread, we also wonder about the little details... a lot. It's a good question. The whole thing with Morrigan was basically that she never had any friends and her whole arc was giving her a chance to change. So, there would only be one person that she could intrinsically trust, who would be HoF, if befriended. And obviously, she can trust them even more if they're her lover. But aside from HoF, there's none that we know of and obviously she didn't leave the child with HoF at the time. I suppose, given her DAI codex entry, she could leave him somewhere heavily warded by magic. At that time she needed to keep herself and OGB safe from Flemeth so it's hard to say who she'd trust.
I would assume that Kieran was inside the Eluvian world or another world connected to it, Morri describes the WH Eluvian as being able to be used once more, she doesn't say she hasn't already been inside. This does also raise the question of if that Eluvian is broken after WH, where did they emerge when they left? Had she already checked it out and made sure there were viable, unlocked alternate exits? Or could she fix it and lock/unlock it from the other side?
Though to be fair, they did have to show Morri on screen in WH and if they hadn't decided what to do with OGB/Kieran at that point his absence was likely one of necessity, I guess.
I think the whole nature of souls in DA is an interesting question in itself. Was Kieran, as the OGB, as he existed in Inquisition a mistake? Did Morrigan forsee him basically having two souls in one body? According to Morrigan in Origins, isn't that kind of not supposed to be possible? Isn't that the whole problem facing a Grey Warden when they kill the Archdemon- that the Archdemon's soul is drawn to the Warden but since 2 souls can't inhabit one body, they just cancel each other out?
So then how do you reconcile Kieran seemingly having his regular normal child's soul plus the soul of Urthemiel? Is that just another instance of Inquisition Morrigan screwing up and dealing with unforseen consequences to her actions? My impression in Origins when Morrigan was explaining the Dark Ritual was basically that since the fetus/baby from the DR would be so new, it basically did not have a soul yet and thus was as much a blank slate for the Old God soul to travel to as any soulless darkspawn. That seemingly wasn't the case.
Then you have the whole nature of how Flemeth is able to yank Urthemiel's soul from Kieran. How did she do that? Does that mean Flemeth now has 3 souls in her body at one time? Was Mythal's soul always so intertwined with Flemeth? Or is Flemeth's state more akin to demonic possession a la Anders and Justice where its a gradual process? Then again, how would the whole body snatching process go with Flemeth and her daughters with respect to souls? Is the host soul just destroyed by Flemeth or is it kind of absorbed by her?
I'm mostly wondering whether these are questions and issues that the writers considered and had ironed out or if they're just playing fast and loose with their own rules they established in Origins.
Yeah, your summary of the DR outcome was pretty much my take on it too. As for the bolded section - this is one of the issues I have with that Mythal theory you linked me to and some of the specifics it implies as well as other theories on some grand plan on her part, but I don't want to get into that too much until your big post appears, which I assume is now rivalling War and Peace in terms of content.
On the topic of the soul snatching, the VFX names used in the two DAI scenes Flemeth is involved in suggest what is actually going on, not that this can be taken as gospel or anything but it is something that might interest people. Take note of the highlighted entries and those around them.
Spoiler
The Kieran fade scene gives the impression what Flemeth did was a "Soul Drain." (soul_drain_eye_leftaura_nosmoke). When Kieran loses the OGB soul he doesn't die and there are no smokey effects going on.
The post-credits scene VFX names describe an absorption of a soul. It also has the same Soul Drain effect but with the addition of the smoke (which we see from Solas). So maybe Mythal went into the mirror and Solas was tricked or something, hence the specific difference in soul drain visuals. Flemeth's body seemingly expired due to age and no elven soul to sustain it, since Morrigan has a line in DAO (can't remember exactly what it is) where she talks about something keeping her mother from dying of old age (she thinks it's an abomination or something iirc), but she would eventually become decrepit, hence the need to body swap.
Bit of a tangent, but while examining those files, I did notice the existence of an interesting plot flag (decrement_myt_main_morrigan_convinced_caution) (at least I think that's what it is) apparently regarding convincing Morrigan to be cautious with the whole WoS business <insert laugh track here> . No clue what it does/affects - probably the talk where you can beat her about the head with what a bad idea it seems and she eventually agrees but wants to do it anyway. Just for the sake of completeness, here it is (though I am only guessing as to its purpose/function, it looks to be a counter variable like they used for similar things in DAO though):
Hmmm... when does Morrigan say she had Kieran exactly in Inquisition? My memory on that is a bit rusty but obviously Morrigan has had Kieran by Witch Hunt, which is ~1 year post the end of Origins, right? And from what we can gather it seems like Morrigan has been on a wild goose chase hunting down all sorts of Eluvian and ancient lore post Origins, which eventually leads her to Orlais, I suppose.
I guess I imagine Morrigan roved around southern Thedas post Origins gathering up Eluvian stuff, has Kieran, Witch Hunt takes place, she goes to the Crossroads and wherever else the Eluvian leads with the Warden and raises Kieran there for a while, then maybe a couple years of that, insinuates herself into the Orlesian Court.
It'll be in the conversation where you first meet him in the garden, maybe normal-Kieran exclusive, I can't recall, the exact line should you wish to search for it is: "I had him before I came to Orlais. He... is a delight, truly."
Yeah, the post WH bit in particular is interesting since, like Ash said a while back, she has her whole speech on not wanting to raise her child in a swamp, yet she doesn't appear in court specifically until 3 years before DAI. So I guess it was left deliberately open so you can slot whatever canon you want in the interim years.
I also happened upon some (I think) semi-hidden dialogue seemingly with Leliana, presumably accessible if you completely ignore Morrigan in the garden before the Fade sequence, Leliana seems to give the Inquisitor a summarised version of who Kieran is. Again, there's bit of other conversations in here too:
Spoiler
<entry><id>000312C5</id><text>Morrigan has a son?</text></entry> <entry><id>000312C6</id><text>I will find help, Inquisitor.</text></entry> <entry><id>000312C7</id><text>It was open when I arrived. Morrigan said only that Kieran did it, then she ran into the mirror.</text></entry> <entry><id>000312C8</id><text></text></entry> <entry><id>000312C9</id><text>I've never seen Morrigan like that. You must go after her!</text></entry> <entry><id>000312CA</id><text>But we need her!</text></entry> <entry><id>000312CB</id><text>She was chasing Kieran?</text></entry> <entry><id>000312CC</id><text></text></entry> <entry><id>000312CD</id><text>But the voices from the Well said we need her!</text></entry> <entry><id>000312CE</id><text>She said he activated the mirror somehow, and then she ran into it.</text></entry> <entry><id>000312CF</id><text>Chasing her son?</text></entry> <entry><id>000312D0</id><text>Morrigan chased after her son into the eluvian. She was terrified.</text></entry> <entry><id>000312D1</id><text>But we need her! She's the one who drank from the Well!</text></entry> <entry><id>000312D2</id><text>What? Why is the eluvian open?</text></entry> <entry><id>000312D3</id><text>A boy of ten years. She said he activated the mirror, and then she ran into it.</text></entry> <entry><id>000312D4</id><text></text></entry> <entry><id>000312D5</id><text>I don't think she expected this. You must go after her!</text></entry> <entry><id>000312D6</id><text>Her son? Morrigan has a son?</text></entry>
All that said, we do have the World of Thedas Volume 2 book coming out pretty soon. And it's supposed to focus more on the characters, so it will be interesting to see what they have there about Morrigan, Flemeth, Kieran and those guys, since it's got to be written from a pretty default/generic POV, since they can't account for all the variables from PC's in the games.
Yeah, maybe there will be something of interest in there. Like I've said to you before, I kind of get the impression that some of the stuff that can't/doesn't make it into the games ends up in such material and given alternate "canons" as presented in the books etc, I question the relevance of some of it to the game series proper. We'll see though.
Yeah, maybe there is a Crossroads Daycare that Morrigan dropped Kieran off at before heading to the Dragonbone Wastes. Or that's just more fuel to the fire that Morrigan can be kind of a crappy mother, leaving Kieran (who is maybe only a year or so old?) alone in the Crossroads for who knows how long while she's out and about getting ancient knowledge for the sake of getting knowledge.
Is there seriously no fanart of this yet? There should be two pieces, one from Morrigan's nightmare scenario as she envisioned in DAO, chained to the warden, screaming infants, a frazzled Morrigan wearing a bakers hat and so on. Then one of the more grounded reality of the situation set later in the timeline, Morrigan says it isn't as domestic as one might imagine, but given her tendency toward opposites, it could very well be just that.
I also like how the thread has now become a detailed critique of HoF and Morri's parenting of their child.
I assumed after DAO, Morrigan traveled around gaining knowledge on Eluvians and whatnot, had Kieran, maybe traveled a little more and then we have the events of Witch Hunt. Assuming the Warden goes with her through the Eluvian, they spend a couple of months there and maybe end up in Orlais. We have no idea how long it took her to make her way into the Imperial Court, but we know she appeared in 9:37. We can assume this was probably around the time the HoF departed on his quest. So there's about five years to play with between the end of Witch Hunt and her debut in the Imperial Court. Morrigan found the lead to combat the Calling, and I presume that sort of information can't be obtained by sitting in the Crossroads for five years. She also says it was only a respite, so it was brief period of time and not a sum of years.
As far as getting food in the Crossroads goes, maybe the World of Thedas Volume 2 will show us how to paint sheds and bake bread in an interdenominational plain. That kind of information could save your life.
Yes, this progression of events fits reasonably well. But then again, doesn't she tell Alistair that she lived with HoF and Kieran far away from this world. That's really the only line that casts a shadow of doubt over things. If you take that to mean they either lived in the Crossroads for a large period of time (seems unlikely) or a world connected to the Crossroads (more likely), but that doesn't satisfy the criteria of not raising her child with no outside contact with society so there has to be more to it than that, otherwise the time they spent together would seem very minimal and HoF's quest would have gone on for an insane length of time. I'll just take it as Morri being economical with the truth/specifics or trying to spook Alistair. I think I like the idea of them making their way over to Orlais, doing stuff there for a time (without drawing undue attention) and then separating from there.
I think, at least in retrospect, Kieran has been rewritten to have always Kieran, as Flemeth remarks in the Fade "...he carries with him a part of something that once was..." or something to that effect. The emphasis on the word carries, its not him, its a part of him. As it stands now, I believe the current version of events is that Kieran has his own soul and has always been Kieran, and also captured and carried the Old God soul, which has a profound effect on him if it happens. He never speaks in the plural, but upon returning from the fade, he does say, "I feel lonely." as if he's lost a good friend.
Thanks for reminding me. This is one my hangups with the whole Kieran & nightmares trail of thought, especially given that Urthemial shared some insights and knowledge with him.
This talk reminded me of something, in Origins you had the whole Morrigan heading off to Orlais (or in the direction of) with child epilogue. I think Gaider later demoted all epilogues to rumours and hearsay yet ultimately a lot of them still tally up with later events. However, Morrigan says that she had Kieran before she went to Orlais, so was she just hiding/hanging out in Ferelden somewhere between the end of Origins and WH or was she just roving around southern Thedas with no destination in mind?
I headcanon that she was stalking the HoF all that time. She intended to go about her destiny on her own, but she just couldn't keep herself from checking in on him from time to time.
I think she had Kieran on the road.
What I wonder is: in Witch Hunt, where is Kieran? Did she leave him with someone? In this case, with whom?
I wonder about so many little details in this game. Like how did Morrigan and warden lived in the crossroads? I didn't see any houses there, did they build one? How did eat in that place? Was Kieran there with them?
Just ignore me
I always figured she felt the Warden approach, took Kieran through the mirror, and then returned to meet the HoF. In Inquisition she does specifically mention that the mirrors lead to other places, similar to the crossroads, but possibly more bearable to humans?
On another OGB point, as has mentioned in earlier posts, the development of the OGB seems to have changed. Morrigan says when she proposes the DR, "...it will become something else, a child, born with the soul of an Old God." Which I presumed by the what the way the sentence was worded that the Old God soul would be Kieran's soul. Retcon? I don't know, but I do like the thought that has been advanced here that its possible Morrigan screwed up the DR. Again, I don't know if at the conclusion of DAO that the OGB story was completely thought out, would be interesting to know what, if any, was the original plan. Still, while I diskike the anti-climaic close of the whole DR\OGB story, I can't complain too much, my Wardens got to live and they and Morrigan now have a fairly normal child, even if it was one unusual route.
I'd always wondered how exactly one performed the ritual, besides the sex part. Did she have to chant stuff during the sex, or was it more like you set it up, runes and stuff like that around the bed, and then the sex? I could easily see Morrigan get part of the ritual wrong because she was a bit...distracted at the time.
I'd always wondered how exactly one performed the ritual, besides the sex part. Did she have to chant stuff during the sex, or was it more like you set it up, runes and stuff like that around the bed, and then the sex? I could easily see Morrigan get part of the ritual wrong because she was a bit...distracted at the time.
I always had it in my mind that she had made the preparations prior to the Warden entering the room. What those preparations are, I have no idea. Drawing runes on the floor or something maybe? It could just be as simple as having a Grey Warden procreate on the eve of battle, nothing else needed.
I have a question for you guys. I feel like we can almost count on seeing Morrigan again in a game. So my question is, if Morrigan were to appear in a DAI DLC and/or a future DA game, what role would you like to see her in? Would you want her as a companion (like DAO), a guide (like she was in the Arbor Wilds), or would you rather have her in the background? If she was in a DAI DLC, what would you want it to be about? Due to her extensive knowledge of Elven lore, she could be involved in helping you track Solas if they ever do a DLC on that.
If we are to believe that DA4 will be taking place up north, where do you think Morrigan's story will go if she does make an appearance?
I always had it in my mind that she had made the preparations prior to the Warden entering the room. What those preparations are, I have no idea. Drawing runes on the floor or something maybe? It could just be as simple as having a Grey Warden procreate on the eve of battle, nothing else needed.
Personal headcanon suggests runes drawn in a circle around the bed, or perhaps carved into the bedposts somehow. To me, something about the DR says fertility ritual rather than blood magic, not that the Chantry would be likely to care.
This might just be me imposing my canon Warden's druidic/shamanistic origins (from his original canon) on the DR, but Morrigan seems to come from a similar tradition, so I feel like this makes sense.
I vaguely recall (this was some time ago though) Gaider mentioned that the DR was supposed to look more... well, like a ritual in terms of visuals, candles and runes and such would make sense, there was definitely supposed to be more to it than just sex. We definitely discussed it somewhere in the previous 600 pages of the thread if you want to go digging, or another Morri thread old-timer with a better memory than I might chime in.
springacres, do you play Spiderweb software games, I swear I've seen someone with your name on their boards...
Terra_Ex - I do indeed play Spiderweb games, though DA has laid an unfortunate claim to my RPG-playing time since I was last on their boards. (Which reminds me, I still haven't finished Avernum 1 yet... >> <<)
I always had it in my mind that she had made the preparations prior to the Warden entering the room. What those preparations are, I have no idea. Drawing runes on the floor or something maybe? It could just be as simple as having a Grey Warden procreate on the eve of battle, nothing else needed.
I have a question for you guys. I feel like we can almost count on seeing Morrigan again in a game. So my question is, if Morrigan were to appear in a DAI DLC and/or a future DA game, what role would you like to see her in? Would you want her as a companion (like DAO), a guide (like she was in the Arbor Wilds), or would you rather have her in the background? If she was in a DAI DLC, what would you want it to be about? Due to her extensive knowledge of Elven lore, she could be involved in helping you track Solas if they ever do a DLC on that.
If we are to believe that DA4 will be taking place up north, where do you think Morrigan's story will go if she does make an appearance?
Im not sure what role I would want to her if it happens but I hope she hasnt forgotten my warden.
Ever since the winter palace quest, I´ve wanted to see Morrigan and my warden dancing there even though others have pointed out the dangers it could create. Still it would be sooooo nice to see them together there or in a similar event. Maybe when things have calmed down and there would be no danger to them or Kieran.
I can imagine it: Morrigan wearing her dress and my warden would wear something nice also and they would dance right there in the middle of all the orlesian nobility without masks. They would steal the show because everyone would stare at them. Vivienne, Celene maybe and other known characters. Morrigan and my warden would know that everyone stares at them and they would hear them talking but they wouldnt care one bit. Quite the opposite, their attitude would pretty much be something like "thats right, we have nothing to hide so go ahead and stare if you wish."
Im not sure what role I would want to her if it happens but I hope she hasnt forgotten my warden.
Ever since the winter palace quest, I´ve wanted to see Morrigan and my warden dancing there even though others have pointed out the dangers it could create. Still it would be sooooo nice to see them together there or in a similar event. Maybe when things have calmed down and there would be no danger to them or Kieran.
I can imagine it: Morrigan wearing her dress and my warden would wear something nice also and they would dance right there in the middle of all the orlesian nobility without masks. They would steal the show because everyone would stare at them. Vivienne, Celene maybe and other known characters. Morrigan and my warden would know that everyone stares at them and they would hear them talking but they wouldnt care one bit. Quite the opposite, their attitude would pretty much be something like "thats right, we have nothing to hide so go ahead and stare if you wish."
I head canon that he was there very briefly (however unlikely as that is), but he was just hiding in the sea of masked faces. But she knew he was there, and that's what matters. I like to imagine that they have a short and subtle exchange shortly after she meets the Inquisitor.
"May I have this dance, Lady Morrigan?"
"Now is not the best time for endearing gestures, my love."
"Danger around every corner, someone trying to usurp the throne, everyone is suspicious of you.... just like old times. I would say now is as good a time as any."
I vaguely recall (this was some time ago though) Gaider mentioned that the DR was supposed to look more... well, like a ritual in terms of visuals, candles and runes and such would make sense, there was definitely supposed to be more to it than just sex. We definitely discussed it somewhere in the previous 600 pages of the thread if you want to go digging, or another Morri thread old-timer with a better memory than I might chime in.
Yeah, I too recall some Gaider quotes on the old BSN regarding how the DR scene was supposed to have some more ritual looking candles and runes and that sort of thing in the scene but were one of the many cuts they had with the DR. I'm sure the exact quotes are somewhere in this thread.
I always had it in my mind that she had made the preparations prior to the Warden entering the room. What those preparations are, I have no idea. Drawing runes on the floor or something maybe? It could just be as simple as having a Grey Warden procreate on the eve of battle, nothing else needed.
I have a question for you guys. I feel like we can almost count on seeing Morrigan again in a game. So my question is, if Morrigan were to appear in a DAI DLC and/or a future DA game, what role would you like to see her in? Would you want her as a companion (like DAO), a guide (like she was in the Arbor Wilds), or would you rather have her in the background? If she was in a DAI DLC, what would you want it to be about? Due to her extensive knowledge of Elven lore, she could be involved in helping you track Solas if they ever do a DLC on that.
If we are to believe that DA4 will be taking place up north, where do you think Morrigan's story will go if she does make an appearance?
I HAVE MANY THOUGHTS ON THIS ISSUE.
But most of those thoughts are tied up in an ungodly long post that's serving as a response to Terra_Ex's ungodly long post from a several months back.
In short, I don't know that I want Morrigan to come back at all, unless certain conditions are met. My main issue with her showing up again in a full sequel or full on new game is that they'd likely have to concoct yet another reason as to why she is not with the Warden (or Kieran too) yet again, since BioWare seems entirely allergic to the idea of the Warden ever showing their face in a game ever again, whether that's as a NPC cameo or as a brief stint as Playable Character. It worked out suprisingly ok in Inquisition since they gave the Warden a good reason to not be nearby due to Corypheus' body hopping trick and the fact that he's off on his personal quest to cure the Calling. But what excuse would they come up with next time? I'm sure they could come up with one that I could begrudgingly accept, but it gets to the point of showing and not telling. I don't want to simply hear about Morrigan's ongoing relationship with the Warden second and third hand, it would be nice to see it too at some point, if they're intent on bringing Morrigan back in person. Same is true with other Wardens and their love interests- it would have been nice to see a Queen Cousland alongside King Alistair.
So that's my concern with bringing back Morrigan in any capacity in the future. That the more you bring her back minus the Warden or Kieran the more removed and more disconnected that relationship becomes and the more one size fits all and generic Morrigan's character development becomes. And given how BioWare seems hell bent on never bringing back the Warden in any capacity, I'm more inclined that they just leave Morrigan off screen with the Warden too.
Having Morrigan show up again in DLC is maybe different, if its pre-ending DLC, before she confronts Flemeth in the Fade, I guess.
But as for where they take Morrigan in a full sequel? I'm betting they'll go all in with some kind of Godhood storyline for her. Which could be cool, but it also could be really terrible if not handled with enough reactivity towards her relationships with the Warden or Kieran. But I'll leave all that for my big post...
I head canon that he was there very briefly (however unlikely as that is), but he was just hiding in the sea of masked faces. But she knew he was there, and that's what matters. I like to imagine that they have a short and subtle exchange shortly after she meets the Inquisitor. "May I have this dance, Lady Morrigan?" "Now is not the best time for endearing gestures, my love." "Danger around every corner, someone trying to usurp the throne, everyone is suspicious of you.... just like old times. I would say now is as good a time as any." "You are impossible." (Morrigan approves +10)
I don't know if it was mentioned here or in a PM with Terra_Ex, but they could have done a nice simple Warden cameo at the Orlesian Ball if you romanced Morrigan.
Just have a cutscene of your Inquisitor approaching Morrigan in the distance, camera over the shoulder of the Inquisitor as you see Morrigan talking to some masked figure in Warden armor. As your Inquisitor is making their way through the crowd of people in the ballroom you maybe see Morrigan and the Warden leaning in close and maybe Morrigan kissing the Warden before the Warden walks off. Your Inquisitor then reaches Morrigan and you get some dialogue option to ask Morrigan who that was, to which she could give you some stereotypically cagey Morrigan reply. And later on after she joins you at Skyhold you uncover that was the Hero of Ferelden.
No need to show the Warden's face and they could have just pulled things like class and race from the Keep.
Ash Wind, Terra_Ex, blahblahblah et 1 autre aiment ceci
Terra_Ex - I do indeed play Spiderweb games, though DA has laid an unfortunate claim to my RPG-playing time since I was last on their boards. (Which reminds me, I still haven't finished Avernum 1 yet... >> <<)
The only Avernum game I've made it through was the (latest) remake of Avernum 1 - Escape from the Pit and while it's enjoyable I've never really been a fan of rpgs where you have to create the whole party, I'd much rather have companion characters like Avadon, which is a shame as Avernum's setting and themes are quite interesting. Geneforge is where it's at for me though, absolutely love that series although I've halted my playthrough of the final game, probably because I don't want it to end .
Anyway, I'll probably add something to the future Morrigan thing later on, but for now I'll just say I'm in agreement with Brock.
Yeah, I too recall some Gaider quotes on the old BSN regarding how the DR scene was supposed to have some more ritual looking candles and runes and that sort of thing in the scene but were one of the many cuts they had with the DR. I'm sure the exact quotes are somewhere in this thread.
I HAVE MANY THOUGHTS ON THIS ISSUE.
But most of those thoughts are tied up in an ungodly long post that's serving as a response to Terra_Ex's ungodly long post from a several months back.
In short, I don't know that I want Morrigan to come back at all, unless certain conditions are met. My main issue with her showing up again in a full sequel or full on new game is that they'd likely have to concoct yet another reason as to why she is not with the Warden (or Kieran too) yet again, since BioWare seems entirely allergic to the idea of the Warden ever showing their face in a game ever again, whether that's as a NPC cameo or as a brief stint as Playable Character. It worked out suprisingly ok in Inquisition since they gave the Warden a good reason to not be nearby due to Corypheus' body hopping trick and the fact that he's off on his personal quest to cure the Calling. But what excuse would they come up with next time? I'm sure they could come up with one that I could begrudgingly accept, but it gets to the point of showing and not telling. I don't want to simply hear about Morrigan's ongoing relationship with the Warden second and third hand, it would be nice to see it too at some point, if they're intent on bringing Morrigan back in person. Same is true with other Wardens and their love interests- it would have been nice to see a Queen Cousland alongside King Alistair.
So that's my concern with bringing back Morrigan in any capacity in the future. That the more you bring her back minus the Warden or Kieran the more removed and more disconnected that relationship becomes and the more one size fits all and generic Morrigan's character development becomes. And given how BioWare seems hell bent on never bringing back the Warden in any capacity, I'm more inclined that they just leave Morrigan off screen with the Warden too.
Having Morrigan show up again in DLC is maybe different, if its pre-ending DLC, before she confronts Flemeth in the Fade, I guess.
But as for where they take Morrigan in a full sequel? I'm betting they'll go all in with some kind of Godhood storyline for her. Which could be cool, but it also could be really terrible if not handled with enough reactivity towards her relationships with the Warden or Kieran. But I'll leave all that for my big post...
I don't know if it was mentioned here or in a PM with Terra_Ex, but they could have done a nice simple Warden cameo at the Orlesian Ball if you romanced Morrigan.
Just have a cutscene of your Inquisitor approaching Morrigan in the distance, camera over the shoulder of the Inquisitor as you see Morrigan talking to some masked figure in Warden armor. As your Inquisitor is making their way through the crowd of people in the ballroom you maybe see Morrigan and the Warden leaning in close and maybe Morrigan kissing the Warden before the Warden walks off. Your Inquisitor then reaches Morrigan and you get some dialogue option to ask Morrigan who that was, to which she could give you some stereotypically cagey Morrigan reply. And later on after she joins you at Skyhold you uncover that was the Hero of Ferelden.
No need to show the Warden's face and they could have just pulled things like class and race from the Keep.
Let's be honest here, if the warden didn't show up in any DLC, but we got an appearance from Morrigan in DLC or a future game, we'd all be pretty much overjoyed if they just did an epilogue slide where she and Kieran are approaching a figure clad in Warden armor. Or a family hug, with the head turned away from the camera or covered by a helmet. Like how much would it really cost them to draw a freaking picture?
"My love, take that helmet off."
"But it makes me look so badass!"
"I like the ones with the big wings, Father!"
"...You're no son of mine!"
Sorry, cut the last bit if you want, I just really hate the winged warden helmets.
TheChosenOne, blahblahblah et Miss Golightly aiment ceci
Let's be honest here, if the warden didn't show up in any DLC, but we got an appearance from Morrigan in DLC or a future game, we'd all be pretty much overjoyed if they just did an epilogue slide where she and Kieran are approaching a figure clad in Warden armor. Or a family hug, with the head turned away from the camera or covered by a helmet. Like how much would it really cost them to draw a freaking picture?
"My love, take that helmet off."
"But it makes me look so badass!"
"I like the ones with the big wings, Father!"
"...You're no son of mine!"
Sorry, cut the last bit if you want, I just really hate the winged warden helmets.
Whoa, let's not get crazy now. According to some, doing something like that destroys headcanons, topples empires, bankrupts companies, kills franchises and requires a developer to create two totally different games and the best solution is apparently for said character to effectively disappear from the game world. Back here on planet Earth however, sure, there are a whole bunch of ways it can be handled in a meaningful manner, enhancing and adding layers to the narrative, which is supposed to be the whole point of the choice system, no?
With respect to Morrigan's future return, I'd have to pretty much agree with Broc, only to add that any future appearance should not involve another terribly executed WoS-type choice, where Morrigan stops being Morrigan and suddenly is the champion of preserving the magic of old, even at the possible cost of her own life, just cuz. I still detest that sequence.
Just have a cutscene of your Inquisitor approaching Morrigan in the distance, camera over the shoulder of the Inquisitor as you see Morrigan talking to some masked figure in Warden armor. As your Inquisitor is making their way through the crowd of people in the ballroom you maybe see Morrigan and the Warden leaning in close and maybe Morrigan kissing the Warden before the Warden walks off. Your Inquisitor then reaches Morrigan and you get some dialogue option to ask Morrigan who that was, to which she could give you some stereotypically cagey Morrigan reply. And later on after she joins you at Skyhold you uncover that was the Hero of Ferelden.
No need to show the Warden's face and they could have just pulled things like class and race from the Keep.
It would have been awesome if they had done something like this. Or even simply, during the Inquisitor's dance sequence, if you caught glimpses of a ridiculously happy Morrigan enjoying a dance with a certain masked stranger in the background.
Terra_Ex, BurningLizard et Miss Golightly aiment ceci
How do you think Morrigan reacted to the Broodmother?
Would she have maintained her stoicism and rebutted any shows of concern? Would she have, exceptionally, not minded if the Warden slept closer the next time they set up camp?
Maybe both? Maybe she wouldn't be bothered in the slightest?
My headanon on this is as follows.
First and foremost, the Broodmother has to be a nightmare come true for Morrigan. She is not a revolutionary/terrorist like Anders but she values her freedom tremendously. The thought of being in the Circle has to be bad enough but being stationary beneath millions of tons of rock, unable to do anything but birth darkspawn after what they do to women...
During the actual fight, Morrigan is in the back casting and hexing while Cousland, being a melee fighter is in the thick of things.
Eager to see that monstrosity killed as soon as possible, Morrigan gathers all of her mana into the most powerful fireball she can conjure, figuring that since the broodmother appears to be wearing no protection, it will make short work of it.
In retrospective, she really should have realized that was a bad idea. She had already seen Darkspawn and Grey Wardens shrugging off spells that would have incapacitated or killed common men and that Broodmother had been a dwarf once.
After the fire failed to accomplish anything, Morrigan is pondering whether she should use her shapeshifter skills since the Broodmother appears to be all but impervious to magic when two pairs of hands grab her and drag her into the darkness.
The melee fighters have done quite a bit of damage. The Broodmother is dying and a replacement is needed.
Morrigan first tries to summon mana but discovers she has spent it all in the previous fireball, then she screams, not for help but out of sheer panic. However, amidst Wynne's casting, Oghren's bellows and the howls of Shrieks, no one hears her.
But Cousland doesn't need to. The ring he is wearing burns and his psyche is flooded with the most primal terror. He knows what is happening and so abandons the fray and pursues the darkspawn.
After killing both Hurlocks holding her, Cousland learns that there are many different ways for Morrigan to touch others. He has seen her grapples Darkspawn and make them explode from the inside out, has felt her holding violently to him in the throes of passion and now, knows what it is like for her to cling to him, desperately searching for protection.
Once the Broodmother has been slain, Cousland doesn't actually approach Morrigan. He already knows that throwing questions or concerned looks her way will result in her lashing out to prove how she is not a damsel. However, he knows better. The ring allowed him to feel what she was feeling, after all.
The next time they set up camp; the group having silently and unanimously decided that delaying rest for when they weren't standing within caverns made of now dead flesh was imperative; he places his bedroll much closer to hers than is usual; first arguing that it's a free Deep Roads and he can sleep where he pleases and then asking, with all seriousness, if his presence is unwelcome.
After some hesitations, she says it isn't.
Meanwhile, Wynne watchs the interaction with pensive eyes,
That reminds me of something I've thought on recently as part of something else I'm working on. How much and how often would that ring betray Morrigan's feelings? Is it tied into the intensity of the emotion/thought/feeling, does it require a conscious effort/magic to project/receive information? Are we positing that the ring was Morri's method of contacting HoF in DAI? I spoke with Brock about the ring a while back and we agreed it would be pretty cool if the ring had actually been one of a pair and romanced Morri was wearing a matching ring in Inquisition. Would have a put a nice spin the whole "are they married or not" question. A question which Morri would still dodge masterfully of course.
As a side note, I'm not sure Morri could be restrained as such (unless she was willing, of course but that's a different discussion entirely), she appears to be able to shapeshift in DAO & DAI with essentially no casting motion, almost as though she just wills it to happen.
New page, new Morri pic.
Retour en haut
. No clue what it does/affects - probably the talk where you can beat her about the head with what a bad idea it seems and she eventually agrees but wants to do it anyway. Just for the sake of completeness, here it is (though I am only guessing as to its purpose/function, it looks to be a counter variable like they used for similar things in DAO though):
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