16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Yahtzee hates pretty much everything, seems to be part of his appeal  I'm of the opinion that Splinter Cell has been getting progressively worse as the series went on - I opted out after Double Agent but I may give Conviction a try - though your comments regarding game length really do concern me. There's a lot of games now that while released a full price take 10hrs~ to complete, cinematic experience or not, that isn't value for money imo. I've taken to putting off buying games like Splinter Cell at their initial release as they tend to drop in price fairly quickly, which offsets the gripe about game length somewhat. Lack of difficulty has a symbiotic relationship with streamlining for the masses - many sequels have their difficulty watered down and even cranking up the difficulty does little to remedy the situation.

Agreed about Splinter Cell getting worse as its gone on. The problem I have with game length now is that I usually buy games for the single player, unless its something like L4D or Battlefield where multiplayer is the focus. So after playing through Modern Warfare 2's single player in an afternoon I thought that was about as short a developer could make a single player campaign. But nope, Conviction is even shorter! Its just frustrating to see the single player neutered with the excuse of pumping up multiplayer and all the while charging even more for the games with onerous DRM- bleh.

I guess thats the good thing about PC gaming though- just wait for the Steam holiday sales and get all the so-so games for dirt cheap!

Back on topic- I've been playing through Origins with Terra_Ex's mod and got to the part with Kitty. Morrigan doesn't seem like she is the one to approve of demons too much. SO why does her approval increase if you let Kitty possess the girl?

On a secondary thought, I ran across this dialogue between Morrigan and Wynne:

• Morrigan: Have you given thought to, perhaps, prolonging
  your life by forcing another spirit into your service?
• Wynne: Of course not.
• Morrigan: I would. Of course, I am still young,
  beautiful, and my life is my own while you are bound to that Circle.
  Hmm. I wonder why I asked. It would be a silly thing, prolonging your
  life. A waste.
• Wynne: Think what you will, Morrigan. When the end
  comes, I will go gladly to my rest, proud of my achievements. While,
  you… you will see how empty your life was. You will realize that because
  you never had love for others, you never received love in return. And
  you will die alone and unmourned.
• Morrigan: You speak of meaningless things. I need no one
  to mourn me, old woman.
• Wynne: More’s the pity.

So, whats up with that? Morrigan sounds a bit Flemeth like there, thinking about using a spirit to prolong her life. Could she use the Old God for something of the sort?

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
 I love the complexity of RPGs now that I've gotten used to it.  I've really taken to it, and have learned to nurture my inner nerd.  I would hate to see DA dumbed-down in complexity and depth.  I already feel that ME2 was a little too heavy with the axe on the stats management and RPG elements of the game...Wow, talking about irony, I never thought I would say that.  In all honesty, I would hate to see that trend continue. 
 

Thats the thing with RPGs for me too. I've never been a huge stats nerd with RPGs as I usually play them for the story and characters, but I like having those RPG gameplay elements (the stats, inventory...). Even in ME2, sure its a very playable game but by scaling back or hiding away all the stats and such it just moves ME2 from an action RPG to just, dare I say it, Gears of War with a dialogue wheel. I like having different genres of games, games that have distinct differences in how they play.

It seems that now alot of devs just try to take the most popular elements of different genres and smush them together into a genre-blending mush of gameplay. Thats not a bad thing necessarily, but its nice to have a spectrum of games out there and not just one homogenous blob of mass market approved gameplay features stuck into every game. Its like all the people that want a voiced protagonist for DA. Sure it works well for ME, but in DA you're supposed to BE the Warden and that sort of a change would lessen the individuality of the DA games IMO.

[blademaster7]

Brock... the banter with Wynne and the situation with kitty was something I brought up in a thread months ago.

For a woman that values freedom she's pretty content with letting a demon posses a little girl. And all sorts of other things(anvil... Caladrious offer with the elven slaves etc).

Just to be clear, I do not think she will end up just like Flemeth. It just reinforces my suspicion that not even the writers themselves know what to do with her. That, or they do love to have the audience speculate about all sorts of things.

Modifié par blademaster7, 07 mai 2010 - 10:10 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Yahtzee hates pretty much everything, seems to be part of his appeal  I'm of the opinion that Splinter Cell has been getting progressively worse as the series went on - I opted out after Double Agent but I may give Conviction a try - though your comments regarding game length really do concern me. There's a lot of games now that while released a full price take 10hrs~ to complete, cinematic experience or not, that isn't value for money imo. I've taken to putting off buying games like Splinter Cell at their initial release as they tend to drop in price fairly quickly, which offsets the gripe about game length somewhat. Lack of difficulty has a symbiotic relationship with streamlining for the masses - many sequels have their difficulty watered down and even cranking up the difficulty does little to remedy the situation.

Agreed about Splinter Cell getting worse as its gone on. The problem I have with game length now is that I usually buy games for the single player, unless its something like L4D or Battlefield where multiplayer is the focus. So after playing through Modern Warfare 2's single player in an afternoon I thought that was about as short a developer could make a single player campaign. But nope, Conviction is even shorter! Its just frustrating to see the single player neutered with the excuse of pumping up multiplayer and all the while charging even more for the games with onerous DRM- bleh.

I guess thats the good thing about PC gaming though- just wait for the Steam holiday sales and get all the so-so games for dirt cheap!

Back on topic- I've been playing through Origins with Terra_Ex's mod and got to the part with Kitty. Morrigan doesn't seem like she is the one to approve of demons too much. SO why does her approval increase if you let Kitty possess the girl?

On a secondary thought, I ran across this dialogue between Morrigan and Wynne:

• Morrigan: Have you given thought to, perhaps, prolonging
  your life by forcing another spirit into your service?
• Wynne: Of course not.
• Morrigan: I would. Of course, I am still young,
  beautiful, and my life is my own while you are bound to that Circle.
  Hmm. I wonder why I asked. It would be a silly thing, prolonging your
  life. A waste.
• Wynne: Think what you will, Morrigan. When the end
  comes, I will go gladly to my rest, proud of my achievements. While,
  you… you will see how empty your life was. You will realize that because
  you never had love for others, you never received love in return. And
  you will die alone and unmourned.
• Morrigan: You speak of meaningless things. I need no one
  to mourn me, old woman.
  
• Wynne: More’s the pity.

So, whats up with that? Morrigan sounds a bit Flemeth like there, thinking about using a spirit to prolong her life. Could she use the Old God for something of the sort?

I think she was just baiting Wynne.

Morrigan doesn't really like Flemeth or agrees with everything She's been thought.

Most likely she is trying to show Wynne how her use of a spirit to keep her alive wasn't that different from what an evil maleficar might do.

Morrigan never struck me as someone who was afraid of aging or dying (unlike Flemeth) so I don't think enslaving spirits to her will ranks very high on her agenda.

[Master Shiori]

blademaster7 wrote...

Brock... the banter with Wynne and the situation with kitty was something I brought up in a thread months ago.

For a woman that values freedom she's pretty content with letting a demon posses a little girl. And all sorts of other things(anvil... Caladrious offer with the elven slaves etc).

Just to be clear, I do not think she will end up just like Flemeth. It just reinforces my suspicion that not even the writers themselves know what to do with her. That, or they do love to have the audience speculate about all sorts of things.

The part with Kitty is strange and, I feel, out of character for Morrigan who really isn't fond of demons.

The anvil part is pure pragmatism. Branka, Oghren and other Dwarves tell you how the Anvil kept the Darkspawn at bay for a century and what a powerful artifact it was. Cosidering you're gathering allies and need every help you can get would make keeping the anvil a smart choice. It was used to defeat the Darkspawn once and could do so again.

Caladrious was also pretty much in character. The Elves were obviously weak enough to allow themselves to be captured and threated as merchandise and sacrificing them to empower the Warden would make your future efforts against the Darkspawn easier.

While it cannot be said that Morrigan is evil, she isn't a good person either. She believes in survival of the fittest, in fighting for what you believe and is above all a pragmatist, which explains why a moralistic idealist like Alistair would dislike her. She does somewhat soften her views under your characters influence, but you cannot change her completely.

[Brockololly]

I think the Elves and the Anvil make sense for Morrigan- she is pragmatic if nothing else and sees both as a means to increase the Warden's power and survival.



But approving of the demon taking over a kid? I don't get it- if you take her into the Fade she clearly has no love for demons. Maybe she just views it as survival of the fittest? Out of curiosity does her approval shift when dealing with the possessed templar and the desire demon in the circle tower? I don't think it does either way.



Morrigan isn't evil per se, but she just does things according to her own moral code without regard to what others may think. By most accounts you could view her as amoral, but she just believes in the survival of the fittest and whatever she can do to increase her own power she views as a means to increase her chance at surviving in a hostile world. It just so happens that she has no qualms doing what most people might consider unsavory things to achieve that power. She is very much an ends justify the means type person.

[Master Shiori]

There is no aproval shift for anyone when dealing with desire demon and her possessed templar.



Although Leliana will make a comment how the templar actually looks happy and that it might be ok to leave them alone. Can't say I expected that from her or for Wynne to remain silent on the matter...



Morrigan is actually quite similar to Loghain in her views. She will do what needs to be done to achieve her goals, right or wrong. Definitely pragmatic and amoral at times but never outright evil.

[elemme]

I am working on my second playthrough and two conversations caught my attention. Both are between Morri and Lelianna. One is about the nature of love and one is where Leliana seems to shut Morri up when she ends the conversation with "you must be very lonely" or something like that. Could someone who can post the actual dialog?

[Brockololly]

elemme wrote...

I am working on my second playthrough and two conversations caught my attention. Both are between Morri and Lelianna. One is about the nature of love and one is where Leliana seems to shut Morri up when she ends the conversation with "you must be very lonely" or something like that. Could someone who can post the actual dialog?

FYI: Dragon Age wiki has most of the conversations there:
Leliana: Let me ask you this, then, Morrigan. What if there really was a Maker?

Morrigan: Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.

Leliana: He left us because we were determined to make our own way, even if we hurt outselves, and He could not bear to watch.

Morrigan: But how do you know? You cannot ask Him this. Perhaps He has gone to a new creation elsewhere, and abandoned this as a dismal failure, best forgotten.

Leliana: I do not need to know because I have faith. I believe in Him and feel His hope and His love.

Morrigan: "Faith." How quickly those who have no answers invoke that word.Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?

Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

Leliana: But only if you can control it. I do not envy the loneliness you must feel at times Morrigan.

Morrigan: I... leave me be. Loneliness would be preferred to this... endless chatter.

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 mai 2010 - 12:10 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Master Shiori wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Brock... the banter with Wynne and the situation with kitty was something I brought up in a thread months ago.

For a woman that values freedom she's pretty content with letting a demon posses a little girl. And all sorts of other things(anvil... Caladrious offer with the elven slaves etc).

Just to be clear, I do not think she will end up just like Flemeth. It just reinforces my suspicion that not even the writers themselves know what to do with her. That, or they do love to have the audience speculate about all sorts of things.

Caladrious was also pretty much in character. The Elves were obviously weak enough to allow themselves to be captured and threated as merchandise and sacrificing them to empower the Warden would make your future efforts against the Darkspawn easier.

Freedom is merely a means to an end for her.  And what she means by freedom is freedom for those strong enough to have it.  If one is willing to throw another under the bus for their own gain, their committment to freedom is tenuous at best.

She is most certainly pragmatic.  That just means she'll do whatever it takes to achieve an end: enslave others, allow demons to possess innocent people, enslave dwarven souls to gain the power of the anvil.  Some of the worst people in history have been absolute pragmatists allowing terrible things to happen to others (or actively doing them) to gain something for themselvs in return.  It is not a virtue in it's own right, but it does play well to the survival of the fittest-minded.  But like many have said here, it most certainly is her personality, at least early-on in the story.  Whether the Warden tempered the beast or not is yet to be seen.

[Master Shiori]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Brock... the banter with Wynne and the situation with kitty was something I brought up in a thread months ago.

For a woman that values freedom she's pretty content with letting a demon posses a little girl. And all sorts of other things(anvil... Caladrious offer with the elven slaves etc).

Just to be clear, I do not think she will end up just like Flemeth. It just reinforces my suspicion that not even the writers themselves know what to do with her. That, or they do love to have the audience speculate about all sorts of things.

Caladrious was also pretty much in character. The Elves were obviously weak enough to allow themselves to be captured and threated as merchandise and sacrificing them to empower the Warden would make your future efforts against the Darkspawn easier.

Freedom is merely a means to an end for her.  And what she means by freedom is freedom for those strong enough to have it.  If one is willing to throw another under the bus for their own gain, their committment to freedom is tenuous at best.

She is most certainly pragmatic.  That just means she'll do whatever it takes to achieve an end: enslave others, allow demons to possess innocent people, enslave dwarven souls to gain the power of the anvil.  Some of the worst people in history have been absolute pragmatists allowing terrible things to happen to others (or actively doing them) to gain something for themselvs in return.  It is not a virtue in it's own right, but it does play well to the survival of the fittest-minded.  But like many have said here, it most certainly is her personality, at least early-on in the story.  Whether the Warden tempered the beast or not is yet to be seen.

I'd also like to point out that most of those things were just suggested by her. She never really goes out of her way to do them nor do you suffered a huge approval loss is you refuse to listen to her advice.

It actually made me wonder how much of that would be Flemeth's teaching rather then Morrigan's personal belief? Morri says in Mage Tower that Flemeth always said how a person can't change his/her destiny and this is something that Morrigan admits she's never accepted.

Because of this it could be possible that she's actually looking for alternatives to what Flemeth taught her and by advising the Warden to do these things she wants to see what he would do differently.

[Addai]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

She is most certainly pragmatic.  That just means she'll do whatever it takes to achieve an end: enslave others, allow demons to possess innocent people, enslave dwarven souls to gain the power of the anvil.  Some of the worst people in history have been absolute pragmatists allowing terrible things to happen to others (or actively doing them) to gain something for themselvs in return.  It is not a virtue in it's own right, but it does play well to the survival of the fittest-minded.  But like many have said here, it most certainly is her personality, at least early-on in the story.  Whether the Warden tempered the beast or not is yet to be seen.

She also has in mind the fact that you face a dire enemy, as Flemeth tries to impress on you and no doubt did on her.  So when she tries to keep you from being distracted (as in Redcliffe) or urges you to consider augmenting your power, it is with that in mind.  In this she is no different than what we're told some Grey Wardens have been.  "Whatever it takes."

Morrigan detractors will say that she is only working for her own ends, but that's not true, as she will point out to you if you accuse her of it.  She risked her life fighting with you along with all your other companions.  If she has selfish motives, it's really no different than most of the other NPC companions and your PC who most likely hopes to gain something personal out of your endeavors.

[Shade of Wolf]

Master Shiori wrote...

I'm willing to bet that we won't see Darkspawn in DA2.

They've been the sole focus of Origins and Awakening and I feel we've learned as much about them as we could hope for at the moment.

There are just so many other things I'd like to see them explore in the sequal: Old Gods, conflict between mages and the Chantry, Elven history (especially Arlathan), barbarian tribes and their religion, secrets of the Tevinter Magisters, whether the Maker exists or no, etc.

No Darkspawn?

[blademaster7]

Hopefully, we don't get to deal with darkspawn anymore. They're kinda lame as villains.

And, Terra_Ex, mind checking the banter of Morrigan and Leliana I posted in this thread? Some people reported that it doesn't trigger.

Shame if it's true.

[Terra_Ex]

Are those the series of catfights? I'm fairly sure I've never heard those trigger in game, but I'll check it out later today - got some other stuff I need to do first. Can you remember what file they're in?

[blademaster7]

Followers > party ran banter



I don't understand how the flags work for banter, so I can't tell if something is wrong

[Terra_Ex]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I love the complexity of RPGs now that I've gotten used to it.  I've really taken to it, and have learned to nurture my inner nerd.  I would hate to see DA dumbed-down in complexity and depth.  I already feel that ME2 was a little too heavy with the axe on the stats management and RPG elements of the game...Wow, talking about irony, I never thought I would say that.  In all honesty, I would hate to see that trend continue. 

What can I say? I'm the epitome of human duality and contradiction.

Sorry, just felt the need to clarify. 

Barbarossa, you really should look into playing the Baldurs Gate series (the PC versions) and Planescape: Torment. If you can get past the somewhat dated graphics you'll find a fantastic series of rpgs. You will love the twists in Planescape, though it is extremely text heavy and combat-lite.

Master Shiori wrote...
It actually made me wonder how much of that would be Flemeth's teaching rather then Morrigan's personal belief?
Morri says in Mage Tower that Flemeth always said how a person can't change his/her destiny and this is something that Morrigan admits she's never accepted.

Because of this it could be possible that she's actually looking for alternatives to what Flemeth taught her and by
advising the Warden to do these things she wants to see what he would do differently.

I've always thought the same, you can certainly see echoes of her desire to break away from Flemeth's indoctrination in some of her dialogs. The mirror sequence in particular springs to mind as being particularly poignant and harkens back to her early experience of a skewed mother/daughter (or rather master/servant) relationship with Flemeth

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 08 mai 2010 - 11:51 .

[Master Shiori]

blademaster7 wrote...

Hopefully, we don't get to deal with darkspawn anymore. They're kinda lame as villains.

And, Terra_Ex, mind checking the banter of Morrigan and Leliana I posted in this thread? Some people reported that it doesn't trigger.

Shame if it's true.

Has that dialogue actually been recorded?

I don't think it triggers ingame.

Still would be great if we could have it restored.

[bl00dsh0t]

Master Shiori wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Hopefully, we don't get to deal with darkspawn anymore. They're kinda lame as villains.

And, Terra_Ex, mind checking the banter of Morrigan and Leliana I posted in this thread? Some people reported that it doesn't trigger.

Shame if it's true.

Has that dialogue actually been recorded?

I don't think it triggers ingame.

Still would be great if we could have it restored.

Its in there im 99% sure i have heard it a few times since morrigan and leliana were 2 of my staple partymembers

[Master Shiori]

bl00dsh0t wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Hopefully, we don't get to deal with darkspawn anymore. They're kinda lame as villains.

And, Terra_Ex, mind checking the banter of Morrigan and Leliana I posted in this thread? Some people reported that it doesn't trigger.

Shame if it's true.

Has that dialogue actually been recorded?

I don't think it triggers ingame.

Still would be great if we could have it restored.

Its in there im 99% sure i have heard it a few times since morrigan and leliana were 2 of my staple partymembers

Hmm, will have to start a new character and check it out.

I suppose you need to romance both of them att he same time, like with other catfight lines.

[blademaster7]

Master Shiori wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Hopefully, we don't get to deal with darkspawn anymore. They're kinda lame as villains.

And, Terra_Ex, mind checking the banter of Morrigan and Leliana I posted in this thread? Some people reported that it doesn't trigger.

Shame if it's true.

Has that dialogue actually been recorded?

I don't think it triggers ingame.

Still would be great if we could have it restored.

I am not 100% sure, but I think I heard the first one. The second one is a bit difficult/complicated to trigger(from what I see in the toolset anyway).

I cannot tell if the dialogue is recorded or not but the lines are present in the toolset along with the rest of the banter.

Modifié par blademaster7, 08 mai 2010 - 12:03 .

[blademaster7]

Ahh... I was just reading the Broken Circle quest and I found more cut content.



From what i understand, you were supposed to have an option to tell Greagoir that Morrigan is an apostate... lol



The dialogue is recorded and plays fine. If you try to hand her over to the templars she transforms into an animal and flees. The cinematic is missing, however. That must be why it was cut from the game.

[Terra_Ex]

blademaster7 wrote...

Ahh... I was just reading the Broken Circle quest and I found more cut content.

From what i understand, you were supposed to have an option to tell Greagoir that Morrigan is an apostate... lol

The dialogue is recorded and plays fine. If you try to hand her over to the templars she transforms into an animal and flees. The cinematic is missing, however. That must be why it was cut from the game.

Wha- more stuff... *sigh* This sounds like a pretty awesome exchange, what file is it in, I'd like to get this back into the game if possible.

What would be nice for a DLC is if Bioware assigned a "team" to repair all of this stuff that was left unfinished - that I would consider paying for... not that I should have to.

[bl00dsh0t]

Perhaps they will in a GOTY ediction before DA2 comes out, all dlc + missing scenes...wouldnt be too shabby ^^

[blademaster7]

Broken Circle > tower level 1 > greagoir

The conversation only comes up if you side with the templars.

I read the whole thing. It is... interesting, to say the least.


Here are the notes I found...

This line was cut as there were no cinematics for Morrigan leaving, and leaving at that point caused some GUI issues. Too late to fix.