16171 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Cole is a good example of a character that was created by Gaider and was passed down to other hands (Patrick Weekes) and he turned out pretty well.

[Aren]

5. Surely Flem/Morri wants the OGB, but because this wish exists, 2 Wardens survived Ostagar. Just because Morrigan is present (opportunity to get OGB), Flemeth saves the Wardens. It would have also been possible, that F. and M. leave the Korcari Wilds and wait in the far north for their chance (with Orlesian Wardens). Again 2 more Wardens dead.


 A Warden who only survived by Alistair/Loghain-Sacrifice shouldn’t be in a morally position to judge her. 

These two points i disagree.

 

1)there is no reason to not believe that Flemeth primary concern was to help the warden to end the blight rather than the old god soul

(which was just bonus for her),in fact in the 3rd game if it was destroyed she doesn't care.

 

2) A warden who survived via Loghain(or Alistair) may see her as inherently dangerous in WH thus the attack option.

She deceived them, used them(against Flemeth) tried to use them for the ritual and now she is trying to use them again against Flemeth.

[Qun00]

I wouldn't say that Flemeth doesn't care.

She just happens to be more mature, which means that not getting what she wants isn't the end of the world.

[Aryassine]

 

These two points i disagree.

 

1)there is no reason to not believe that Flemeth primary concern was to help the warden to end the blight rather than the old god soul

(which was just bonus for her),in fact in the 3rd game if it was destroyed she doesn't care.

 

2) A warden who survived via Loghain(or Alistair) may see her as inherently dangerous in WH thus the attack option.

She deceived them, used them(against Flemeth) tried to use them for the ritual and now she is trying to use them again against Flemeth.

 

 

to 1) Morrigan tells the GW during the DR (I guess that needs a romance/friend relationship), that the reason for rescuing the GW was to get the OGB. I think that was the main reason for Flemeth to rescue them. A possible ending of the Blight is “good to have”, but I like said before this can also be done with Orlais.

Spoiler

Flemeth doesn’t care for Kieran in DAI, because the OGB-Plot isn’t any more important ;-)

 

to 2) For what reason Morrigan is a threat? She “only” wanted a not corrupted old god soul. This opportunity is gone. You need a very strong chantry GW to kill her for that goal (next blight is far away).

 

You can’t blame Morrigan to be “evil”, only because of her antihuman behavior. We don’t know, if Morrigan actual ever really done something “evil”. She suggest from time to time disputable things, but it never happens, if the GW acts wise. Surely Morrigan wants power, but not to rule over people. Compared with other actions of Companions (especially in DA2/DAI) she is almost a saint ;-)

 

Spoiler

I have another remark/question, that I forgot in my last post. The origin of Morrigans eyes is still open right? I thought that’s related with the old gods/Dragon (reptile) thing. But in DAI I believe Abelas has the same (unique?) eyes. So I think it’s may be related to Mythal. Do you guys think that’s on purpose or by accident?

[Aren]

to 1) Morrigan tells the GW during the DR (I guess that needs a romance/friend relationship), that the reason for rescuing the GW was to get the OGB. I think that was the main reason for Flemeth to rescue them. A possible ending of the Blight is “good to have”, but I like said before this can also be done with Orlais.

Spoiler

Flemeth doesn’t care for Kieran in DAI, because the OGB-Plot isn’t any more important ;-)

 

to 2) For what reason Morrigan is a threat? She “only” wanted a not corrupted old god soul. This opportunity is gone. You need a very strong chantry GW to kill her for that goal (next blight is far away).

 

You can’t blame Morrigan to be “evil”, only because of her antihuman behavior. We don’t know, if Morrigan actual ever really done something “evil”. She suggest from time to time disputable things, but it never happens, if the GW acts wise. Surely Morrigan wants power, but not to rule over people. Compared with other actions of Companions (especially in DA2/DAI) she is almost a saint ;-)

 

Spoiler

I have another remark/question, that I forgot in my last post. The origin of Morrigans eyes is still open right? I thought that’s related with the old gods/Dragon (reptile) thing. But in DAI I believe Abelas has the same (unique?) eyes. So I think it’s may be related to Mythal. Do you guys think that’s on purpose or by accident?

Flemeth has nothing to gain in seeing the Archdemon rampage the world for more years,it did not costed to her anything to rescue the warden nor there are proofs that she was obsessed with the archdemon soul like Morrigan.

 

 

You define an old god which has the potential of doing immense destruction as a trivial thing?

She wanted only an old god soul the same soul which was the core of the blight.

Why the warden shouldn't see her as inherently dangerous?There are a lot of in game dialogues that reflect this perspective,unless they are all incorrect because you believe them to be.

Morrigan a saint?I think that either you don't know the meaning of the word or either you are exaggerating.

[Qun00]

It was Flemeth who sent her to do the job in the first place.

[Aren]

It was Flemeth who sent her to do the job in the first place.

If Flemeth cared for the archdemon  i'm sure that with all the resources at her disposal she would have tried to do something more for her own  success instead she just sent Morrigan and then she don't interfere anymore.

I had also the impression that her primary concern was The Dread wolf not Urthemiel.

[SgtSteel91]

I thought her primary concern was Mythal, seeing how Mythal was the one who saved her and wanting to see Mythal avenged.

[GoldenGail3]

I thought her primary concern was Mythal, seeing how Mythal was the one who saved her and wanting to see Mythal avenged.

Yeah, I suppose it was...

[Aryassine]

I have the impression Spoilers are not needed here  

 

 

Flemeth has nothing to gain in seeing the Archdemon rampage the world for more years,it did not costed to her anything to rescue the warden nor there are proofs that she was obsessed with the archdemon soul like Morrigan.

 

 

You define an old god which has the potential of doing immense destruction as a trivial thing?

She wanted only an old god soul the same soul which was the core of the blight.

Why the warden shouldn't see her as inherently dangerous?There are a lot of in game dialogues that reflect this perspective,unless they are all incorrect because you believe them to be.

Morrigan a saint?I think that either you don't know the meaning of the word or either you are exaggerating.

 

 

Mostly everything what Morrigans thinks of Thedas and her inhabitants comes from the influence of Flemeth. After the break with Flemeth she still follows her agenda, because on the one hand Morrigan is conditioned, on the other hand she still believes in that, even after she experiences Thedas on her own. Probably she is forever conditioned with Flemeth agenda.

 

Of course I don’t define the old god as a trivial thing. But we don’t know what they really were: evil or just mindless beasts or whatever. That depends in part of the GW view.

 

Morrigan is pragmatic and in part an opportunist, but again not evil. Here her (probably) most “evil” proposal: the Tevinter Slave Quest in the Alienage. If you accept the offer u get some constitution points (I did it only time to see how much it is and remember as somewhat ridiculous). So for the PC it’s usually an easy choice to decline such an offer at the end of the game. But from RP-view it makes sense to accept the offer. You are a GW and you have to stop a blight to all costs (Blood Magic is also allowed). Now you have the opportunity to get stronger which increase your chance with the AD. Some (not me!) would call it collateral damage.

 

But I don’t want to argue about if Morrigan is evil or not and if the killing option in WH is right or not. Bioware integrated it and they had their reasons (to please the Morri-Haters   )

 

 

I thought her primary concern was Mythal, seeing how Mythal was the one who saved her and wanting to see Mythal avenged.

 

If I overlook it correct, we have in DAO only one hint for a Flemeth/Mythal connection (and you need DAI to realize it as hint). Probably Bioware had already an idea in this stadium, what Flemeth true nature is and which role the OGB and the Dread Wolf plays. But with DAI we know now, OGB plays no role. So probably we can assume some other aspects from DAO play no role as well.

[Aren]

1. It’s not a betrayal rather a blackmail. She tells u what happen if u decline. Btw: the scene if u decline the DR and Morrigan walks proudly away is great


3. We still have no clue what the nature of the old gods is.
Of course I don’t define the old god as a trivial thing. But we don’t know what they really were: evil or just mindless beasts or whatever. That depends in part of the GW view.


Mostly everything what Morrigans thinks of Thedas and her inhabitants comes from the influence of Flemeth.


Morrigan is pragmatic

~It's a matter of perspective,to me the ritual was a form of betrayal since she never wanted to help in defeat the blight but rather to use the warden to gain the archdemon soul which means she deceived the warden from the start which is a form of betrayal.
I don't see what's she had to be proud of in running away but maybe is just me,i mean in the end she accomplished nothing.


~ I don't care about the nature of the old gods,is sufficient to know that they are all potential archdemons and as such their death is better than their preservation


~Flemeth and Morrigan are completely different in demeanor,Morrigan of DAO was willing to kill those which she saw as unworthy while Flemeth never had this kind of insanity and bloodlust desires also she never supported slavery unlike her daughter.


~Morrigan isn't pragmatic she is judgmental,most of the time her advices are pointless because not practical or even harmful for the warden quest.

I thought her primary concern was Mythal, seeing how Mythal was the one who saved her and wanting to see Mythal avenged.

Her primary concern is not Mythal since the lady is no longer alive (the original)
Her only concern is to complete her mission and in order to do that she waited the Dread wolf which was the person she was looking for and waiting for centuries.

[Aryassine]

I don't see what's she had to be proud of in running away but maybe is just me,i mean in the end she accomplished nothing.

I meant it in an aesthetic way. She and her walk looks great.

~Flemeth and Morrigan are completely different in demeanor,Morrigan of DAO was willing to kill those which she saw as unworthy while Flemeth never had this kind of insanity and bloodlust desires also she never supported slavery unlike her

Do you have any proof for that statement? In which situation Morrigan suggest to kill unworthy? How you know that she is supporting slavery? Sorry but your statements implies a little bit a lack of knowledge.

If u have a general problem with the NPC Morrigan, what's affect you to join the Morrigan-Fan-Thread. I understand if someone get for a time frustrated about NPC actions/behaviour. But some day it is simply enough.

[Domakir]

''Kill those which she saw unworthy'' If you mean what she said about the mages in the Circle Tower then you should have in mind the way Flemeth raised her.

And about the slavery thing, I don't remember Morrigan supporting it. What she supported was Caladrius offer of increasing your power using the slaves as sacrifices.

[Aren]

Do you have any proof for that statement? In which situation Morrigan suggest to kill unworthy? How you know that she is supporting slavery? Sorry but your statements implies a little bit a lack of knowledge.

If u have a general problem with the NPC Morrigan, what's affect you to join the Morrigan-Fan-Thread. I understand if someone get for a time frustrated about NPC actions/behaviour. But some day it is simply enough.

Morrigan suggested  to kill  persons whom she saw as unworthy for supposed lack of raw power or for not being likable to  her mindset like the mages of the circle.

 

She supported slavery when she approved of Caladrius advice to take 100 coins from the warden and take the elves as slaves in Tevinter.

 

Didn't understood your last statement?

I'm just replying to all those points you believed i made for supposed lack of knowledge when they are simply meant to reflect exactly what Morrigan did or said in DAO.

 

 

 

And about the slavery thing, I don't remember Morrigan supporting it. What she supported was Caladrius offer of increasing your power using the slaves as sacrifices.

 

She also do what you said so you are correct,but before to do that she approve of Caladrius request to try to gain 100 coins from the warden to take the elves as slaves in Tevinter since her words were clear enough  it was a form of slavery support.

 

[ThomasBlaine]

Raised and sexually abused by an insane demon/god in a tiny hovel in a swamp, which she has only just escaped.

 

Just saying.

[Qun00]

Um... sexually?

[BurningLizard]

Well, if you account Morrigan's stories about what Flemeth did to Chasind men, and how Morrigan clearly was exposed to that, and the understanding that she would be expected to do the same, could be construed as sexually related abuse, but I dunno if directly sexual abuse. Still freaking messed up and clearly messed with her mentally and emotionally.

[MisterJB]

If you check Morrigan's discussions with Wynne, you will see how she defends that nature dictacts that the strong survive and the weak die. Thus it's not about worthiness or lack thereof. Rather, she simply believed that if one was too weak to defend oneself, then one deserved what they got. She saw no reason to harm or save them.

With that being said, this was still the same Morrigan that offered a little girl from Lothering one of her feathers because she said they were pretty.

[Aryassine]

 

Morrigan suggested  to kill  persons whom she saw as unworthy for supposed lack of raw power or for not being likable to  her mindset like the mages of the circle.

 

She supported slavery when she approved of Caladrius advice to take 100 coins from the warden and take the elves as slaves in Tevinter.

 

Didn't understood your last statement?

I'm just replying to all those points you believed i made for supposed lack of knowledge when they are simply meant to reflect exactly what Morrigan did or said in DAO.

 

She also do what you said so you are correct,but before to do that she approve of Caladrius request to try to gain 100 coins from the warden to take the elves as slaves in Tevinter since her words were clear enough  it was a form of slavery support.

 

 

 

When a GW pays Caladrius 100 coins for the papers, I would understand Morrigans approval (if it exists). Because she may think then: ok Ferelden people are too stupid, I put my hope in Tevinter. I can’t imagine anyone ever accepted this “offer”. I understand it as a symbol for the infinite arrogance of Tevinter Magisters.

 

Her behavior in the circle, where the GW meets Wynne can be interpreted as evil (children are around). But you must see it in relation to her uprising (don’t have time to explain it more).

 

If you check Morrigan's discussions with Wynne, you will see how she defends that nature dictacts that the strong survive and the weak die. Thus it's not about worthiness or lack thereof. Rather, she simply believed that if one was too weak to defend oneself, then one deserved what they got. She saw no reason to harm or save them.

With that being said, this was still the same Morrigan that offered a little girl from Lothering one of her feathers because she said they were pretty.

 

In the same source there is a story from a farmer, who invited a younger Morrigan to dinner (or something else). During the dinner she asks a lot about chantry things till the farmer wife wants to expulse her (probably because she was jealous of Morrigans exotic beauty  ). Morrigan turns in a giant bear and leaves visible annoyed. Evil people wouldn’t just leave…

[Qun00]

If Flemeth cared for the archdemon  i'm sure that with all the resources at her disposal she would have tried to do something more for her own  success instead she just sent Morrigan and then she don't interfere anymore.
I had also the impression that her primary concern was The Dread wolf not Urthemiel.

No, no, Morrigan says it herself with all the words.

https://youtu.be/P4uLIydMoQU

02:38

[Aren]

No, no, Morrigan says it herself with all the words.



02:38

I highly doubt that Morrigan understood Flemeth and her motivations she never told to Morrigan why she wanted Urthemiel nor she told her who she was nor she told her anything about her old friend, in short she  only had the knowledge of the ritual and wanted the soul because was manipulated by Flemeth upbringing.

[Aren]

The DR is a different story. It is an obsession that involves using both her lover and child as mere tools. Of course, Morrigan eventually comes to care for them both, but one can't do wrong and still be rewarded with the very thing one wanted.

 

I had to subject my warden  to follow only one line of thought in regard of this passionate romantic struggle

"never put passion before principle. Even if win, you lose."

[Qun00]

I would like to discuss a little about Morrigan's family life with the surviving HoF. I brought it up in the DAI section and people said that going through the eluvian = Retirement. Is that really true?

And while we're at it... how does Morrigan support Kieran? She isn't Celene's occult advisor anymore and being an apostate doesn't pay much.

I'm also pretty sure that Grey Wardens aren't paid in money. Direct resources like free food, more likely.

[Domakir]

I'd like to think that my warden retired because in my cycle... I mean, in my canon my male Cousland never wanted to be a grey warden so...

 

And about how Morrigan supports Kieran... Magic. Literally. 

I don't know, I've never thought about it.

[Aren]

I would like to discuss a little about Morrigan's family life with the surviving HoF.

I think the discussion is complicated because of the differents backgrounds of the warden.

The paths are so divergent that i think it is nearly impossible to tie them up without the common denominator of the calling