16171 réponses à ce sujet

[Ash Wind]

I would like to discuss a little about Morrigan's family life with the surviving HoF. I brought it up in the DAI section and people said that going through the eluvian = Retirement. Is that really true?

And while we're at it... how does Morrigan support Kieran? She isn't Celene's occult advisor anymore and being an apostate doesn't pay much.

I'm also pretty sure that Grey Wardens aren't paid in money. Direct resources like free food, more likely.

Semi- unofficial retirement, though before their quest to cure the calling I'm sure they went out just to kick a little ass from time to time.

 

As far as money goes... I dunno... my Warden's had a boat load of gold, silver and copper at the end of DAO/DAA, I don't think they're hurting for cash. Besides, for most of my Wardens, their brother is the Tyern of Highever and their best friend is the King of Ferelden.

 

And Morrigan seems to be quite stingy... er, um... prudent with money.

 

#winning

[ThomasBlaine]

Um... sexually?

 

Well, if you account Morrigan's stories about what Flemeth did to Chasind men, and how Morrigan clearly was exposed to that, and the understanding that she would be expected to do the same, could be construed as sexually related abuse, but I dunno if directly sexual abuse. Still freaking messed up and clearly messed with her mentally and emotionally.

 

 

 

Morrigan: Hmph. my mother's stories curdled my blood and haunted my dreams. No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them. No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age.

 

Whenever I've heard this in the game I've always taken it to mean that Flemeth forced her to have sex with strange men at some point during or after puberty, which would definitely be sexual abuse. This also made sense to me because I have a hard time believing that Morrigan wanting to get pregnant with the Old God baby isn't part of Flemeth's programming, and involves having to seduce a potentially very reluctant Grey Warden.

 

Reading it now I see that it can also be understood as Flemeth simply taking it for granted that Morrigan would eventually adopt the same kind of behavior and telling her so.

 

Anyway, my point was that while we should obviously hold people to some standards regardless of background, Morrigan is the epitome of mental balance, generosity and empathy considering that she's spent her entire life up to her recruitment by the PC in a hut with one room, in a swamp, with Flemeth.

[Aren]

Whenever I've heard this in the game I've always taken it to mean that Flemeth forced her to have sex with strange men at some point during or after puberty, which would definitely be sexual abuse. This also made sense to me because I have a hard time believing that Morrigan wanting to get pregnant with the Old God baby isn't part of Flemeth's programming, and involves having to seduce a potentially very reluctant Grey Warden.

 

 

I think that this is demonizing Flemeth way too much,i don't believe she did any of these things it was mostly Morrigan who seduced people when she wanted and  this is coming from some banters of Morrigan.

 

 Morrigan is the epitome of mental balance, generosity and empathy considering that she's spent her entire life up to her recruitment by the PC in a hut with one room, in a swamp, with Flemeth.

I don't remember any of these things from the character since it was mostly built upon another mindset and there are several instances in which Morrigan showed to lack all these three features you mentioned.

 

By that logic the mad hermit is an angel since he was completely alone into a trunk and yet he is the only character in the whole franchise who cares for the PC to the point of asking personal questions to them.

[Aryassine]

Anyway, my point was that while we should obviously hold people to some standards regardless of background, Morrigan is the epitome of mental balance, generosity and empathy considering that she's spent her entire life up to her recruitment by the PC in a hut with one room, in a swamp, with Flemeth.

I have the same thought. Although I wouldn’t go so far to call her generous. Except the feather she gifted to the little girl in Lothering, we (I) have no information about that (Morrigans ring is something different). Her empathy is based (like mostly her whole life) on the “survival of the fittest” opinion. She sees in Sten a strong and proud “creature”. That fits with her view, so she wants him to be freed. To show empathy for the weaker one is in her view a waste because they will die or get harmed anyway.

Through the journey with the GW (regardless romance, friendship or ignored status) Morrigan learns much about human society and behavior, which make it for her possible to end up at the Orlesian court. And I believe her views soften a lot through those events.

I think that this is demonizing Flemeth way too much,i don't believe she did any of these things it was mostly Morrigan who seduced people when she wanted and this is coming from some banters of Morrigan.


I don't remember any of these things from the character since it was mostly built upon another mindset and there are several instances in which Morrigan showed to lack all these three features you mentioned.

By that logic the mad hermit is an angel since he was completely alone into a trunk and yet he is the only character in the whole franchise who cares for the PC to the point of asking personal questions to them.

Did you notice the Morrigan statement in ThomasBlaine post? Maybe you believe Morrigan is telling a lie or maybe she starts to seduce men with 8 - 10 years? I wait for the day, when you claim Morrigan has blond hair
And here hot news for you: 99% of pretty women exploit her appearance for personal advantages (or are “forced” by stupid men). I wonder what you think of Leliana, but maybe you see it different because she is sooooo sweet.

You really want to compare the mad hermit with the Flemeth/Morrigan situation/relationship? Really now?
My impression gets stronger and stronger that you have a problem with Morrigan on a personal level. This is not the only place where you complain about Morrigan. Did u meet her in RL and she harms you somehow? If so, please tell me how to meet her in RL

At last I have two questions.
1) I always wonder what Flemeth purpose was to do that “things” with the chasind men. Did she needed the blood or just for fun? I also thought it’s a kind of demonstration for Morrigan.

2) Do you guys think Flemeth and Morrigan made a show for the wardens, when Flemeth propose Morrigan should join the GW. Or is her surprise real?

[Qun00]

Oh, they were putting on a show without a doubt.

When you wake up in their hut, you can ask Morrigan why did Flemeth save you. Then she lies straight to your face, saying that she doesn't know.

The camera even focuses very closely on her face at that moment, kinda like

[ThomasBlaine]

 

I think that this is demonizing Flemeth way too much,i don't believe she did any of these things it was mostly Morrigan who seduced people when she wanted and  this is coming from some banters of Morrigan.

 

I don't remember any of these things from the character since it was mostly built upon another mindset and there are several instances in which Morrigan showed to lack all these three features you mentioned.

 

By that logic the mad hermit is an angel since he was completely alone into a trunk and yet he is the only character in the whole franchise who cares for the PC to the point of asking personal questions to them.

 

 

I didn't mean that she's actually the epitome of those virtues, just that she could have turned out much much worse and should be given some slack for an entire life spent in cramped isolation with an centuries-old insane demon, which is literally where we pick her up from. She has no experience with life outside the Kokari Wilds or even among other sentient creatures to speak of, you can't exactly expect much in the way of human empathy until she's at least had a chance to look around outside Flemeth's influence and get to know people. As in, people as a concept.

 

And I don't think that's demonizing Flemeth. She's clearly an ancient, amoral and inhuman entity with some level of omniscience. If she was any single one of those things I wouldn't put anything past her. She's all of them. Don't get me wrong, I love her and what she brings to the series, but that doesn't mean she isn't a monster who would have treated Morrigan however she thought most useful with no regard for civilized norms.

 

The mad hermit isn't a remotely comparable situation. I don't get what you're trying to say with that.

 

 

I have the same thought. Although I wouldn’t go so far to call her generous. Except the feather she gifted to the little girl in Lothering, we (I) have no information about that (Morrigans ring is something different). Her empathy is based (like mostly her whole life) on the “survival of the fittest” opinion. She sees in Sten a strong and proud “creature”. That fits with her view, so she wants him to be freed. To show empathy for the weaker one is in her view a waste because they will die or get harmed anyway.

Through the journey with the GW (regardless romance, friendship or ignored status) Morrigan learns much about human society and behavior, which make it for her possible to end up at the Orlesian court. And I believe her views soften a lot through those events.
Did you notice the Morrigan statement in ThomasBlaine post? Maybe you believe Morrigan is telling a lie or maybe she starts to seduce men with 8 - 10 years? I wait for the day, when you claim Morrigan has blond hair
And here hot news for you: 99% of pretty women exploit her appearance for personal advantages (or are “forced” by stupid men). I wonder what you think of Leliana, but maybe you see it different because she is sooooo sweet.

You really want to compare the mad hermit with the Flemeth/Morrigan situation/relationship? Really now?
My impression gets stronger and stronger that you have a problem with Morrigan on a personal level. This is not the only place where you complain about Morrigan. Did u meet her in RL and she harms you somehow? If so, please tell me how to meet her in RL

At last I have two questions.
1) I always wonder what Flemeth purpose was to do that “things” with the chasind men. Did she needed the blood or just for fun? I also thought it’s a kind of demonstration for Morrigan.

2) Do you guys think Flemeth and Morrigan made a show for the wardens, when Flemeth propose Morrigan should join the GW. Or is her surprise real?

 

There's no reason to get all personal. As I said, the statement can also be read as Flemeth simply having been open about expecting Morrigan to eventually grow up into a fickle, murderous seductress like herself. Matter of interpretation. All I'm saying is that as we pick her up directly from Flemeth's hut, in a sense we're her chaperone in her first real experiences with both humanity and civilization, and shouldn't expect too much or judge too harshly.

 

There's also the fact that while she vocally complains about you potentially being a goody-two-shoes, she never attacks or hurts anyone she isn't supposed to and never refuses to assist you in helping people, much less actively tries to stop you. How evil does that make her exactly?

 

1) Absolutely no idea. Young Flemeth having gloried in her power over men and used them how she liked isn't implausible at all. That being just a popular fairy tale used to discourage philandering, her actual youth having been nothing like that, isn't either.

 

2) I think Morrigan's surprise is genuine, that she hadn't connected the dots between these two Grey Wardens and Flemeth's plans for her, and that Flemeth springs it on her for her own amusement. Morrigan obviously lies about other things so as not to reveal too much about her and her "mother", but she definitely doesn't seem prepared to leave when it comes up.

[Aren]

Did you notice the Morrigan statement in ThomasBlaine post? Maybe you believe Morrigan is telling a lie or maybe she starts to seduce men with 8 - 10 years? I wait for the day, when you claim Morrigan has blond hair

You seem to be a really big fan of taking something that someone said, pretending they said something completely different, and ranting against that imaginary argument.

I clearly pointed out that in the specific case of Flemeth nothing more but legends and tales were provided by the game and the banters clearly referenced to some tales.

My impression gets stronger and stronger that you have a problem with Morrigan on a personal level. This is not the only place where you complain about Morrigan. Did u meet her in RL and she harms you somehow? If so, please tell me how to meet her in RL
 

I'm not able to understand thus i cannot comment.

Is this your way to  discuss with those who disagree with you?

 

 

And here hot news for you: 99% of pretty women exploit her appearance for personal advantages (or are “forced” by stupid men). I wonder what you think of Leliana, but maybe you see it different because she is sooooo sweet.
 

An overly simplistic generalizations about women would not make you credible or reasonable in any debate 

there is nothing so black and white about these matters.

You really want to compare the mad hermit with the Flemeth/Morrigan situation/relationship? Really now?

 

 

Mostly you didn't grasped the parallel.

A secluded life and  solitude are not an excuse.

So when players are using Flemeth as a kind of scapegoat for Morrigan's behavior that doesn't make it an excuse either and doesn't change the fact that Morrigan of DAO is a bad person, how  she get there it does not matter.

 

She's clearly an ancient, amoral and inhuman entity 

Don't get me wrong, I love her and what she brings to the series, but that doesn't mean she isn't a monster who would have treated Morrigan however she thought most useful with no regard for civilized norms.

 

 

I'm specifically asking what kind of evidences you possess to define Flemeth as a monster or amoral?here it seem to me that she is often used as a convenient scapegoat.

I actually can portray her with several evidences as a totally different person

[ThomasBlaine]

 

You seem to be a really big fan of taking something that someone said, pretending they said something completely different, and ranting against that imaginary argument.

I clearly pointed out that in the specific case of Flemeth nothing more but legends and tales were provided by the game and the banters clearly referenced to some tales.

I'm not able to understand thus i cannot comment.

Is this your way to  discuss with those who disagree with you?

 

 

An overly simplistic generalizations about women would not make you credible or reasonable in any debate 

there is nothing so black and white about these matters.

 

Mostly you didn't grasped the parallel.

A secluded life and  solitude are not an excuse.

So when players are using Flemeth as a kind of scapegoat for Morrigan's behavior that doesn't make it an excuse either and doesn't change the fact that Morrigan of DAO is a bad person, how  she get there it does not matter.

 

I'm specifically asking what kind of evidences you possess to define Flemeth as a monster or amoral?here it seem to me that she is often used as a convenient scapegoat.

I actually can portray her with several evidences as a totally different person

 

 

A: Flemeth's age. You don't get that old and still retain basic human sensibilities, much less civilized ones, assuming she was ever human to begin with which she wasn't. Her telling her, let's say, adoptive daughter that she used to seduce and kill men for sport and either expected the same of her "daughter" or outright forced her to do the same while growing up is another red flag I would say. Her blithely and painfully killing a refugee fleeing Loghain's and his father's camp at the beginning of The Stolen Throne isn't a great sign either. Oh, and then there's the kidnapping and raising little girls in order to steal their bodies when they grow up. Amoral? Definitely. A straight-up monster? I wouldn't exactly rule it out.

 

B: Don't say things like "there is nothing so black and white about these matters" and then make your statement that a "bad person" is a "bad person" no matter where s/he comes from. If you'd been raised captive in a box by a cruel psychopath, escaped in your early twenties miraculously sane if insensitive, and were then suddenly introduced to human society, would you really want people to judge you for not immediately aligning yourself with their ideas of right and wrong? And again, she never actually hurts anyone, she just complains if you insist on coddling and saving strangers while fearlessly helping you do so at great risk to herself.

[Qun00]

And again, she never actually hurts anyone, she just complains if you insist on coddling and saving strangers while fearlessly helping you do so at great risk to herself.

It never had anything to do with a genuine desire to help the Warden. First, she needs to stay alive in order to achieve her goal, so fighting is inevitable.

And refusing to accompany the HoF when called would ruin her cover for the true reasons to be there.

[Domakir]

And refusing to accompany the HoF when called would ruin her cover for the true reasons to be there.

But doesn't she leave if you have a bad relationship with her and then appears for the DR?

[Qun00]

But doesn't she leave if you have a bad relationship with her and then appears for the DR?

That is a Warden who is hostile to Morrigan, which means the approach that involves keeping his/her trust has completely failed.

Leaving only to return in the eve of the final battle is Plan B.

[Aren]

A: Flemeth's age. You don't get that old and still retain basic human sensibilities, much less civilized ones

What kind of physical law exist behind thy statement?

If someone is too old it doesn't mean that it have to lose human sensibilities in fact Flemeth could have pursued revenge for herself against Morrigan in the Altar or in the fade if she was killed instead she simply let her go.

 Her telling her, let's say, adoptive daughter that she used to seduce and kill men for sport and either expected the same of her "daughter" or outright forced her to do the same while growing up is another red flag I would say. Her blithely and painfully killing a refugee fleeing Loghain's and his father's camp at the beginning of The Stolen Throne isn't a great sign either. Oh, and then there's the kidnapping and raising little girls in order to steal their bodies when they grow up. Amoral? Definitely. A straight-up monster? I wouldn't exactly rule it out.

 

 

These are all legends and tales that you are throwing as facts without evidences.

Seriously you remind me  those  soldiers at Ostagar who held any tale like the ultimate truth.

The whole body snatching thing is just Morrigan's misinterpretation so you are accusing Flemeth based on a falsehood.

Only fact i know about Flemeth is that Maric,the warden,Hawke and the Inquisitor received great help from her and those are facts not tales.

 

 

B: Don't say things like "there is nothing so black and white about these matters" and then make your statement that a "bad person" is a "bad person" no matter where s/he comes from. If you'd been raised captive in a box by a cruel psychopath, escaped in your early twenties miraculously sane if insensitive, and were then suddenly introduced to human society, would you really want people to judge you for not immediately aligning yourself with their ideas of right and wrong? And again, she never actually hurts anyone, she just complains if you insist on coddling and saving strangers while fearlessly helping you do so at great risk to herself.

If someone is saying that 99% of pretty woman behave in certain way then that is  an oversimplification which is a form of close minded thinking.

How someone is raised does not change the ultimate result,if someone is constantly pushing for the killing of other people for the sake of power then it means that this person is lacking any form of basic empathy.

 

She outright betrayed the Dalish clan in the Dlc,outright killed someone for power in DAI and  tried to kill Flemeth through the warden because of a book, she didn't hurt anyone?

It seem a bit odd to say or imply that Mythal taught to Morrigan to disrespect the elves.

 

 

[Aren]

But doesn't she leave if you have a bad relationship with her and then appears for the DR?

Morrigan never leave unless

a)You decided to send her away

b)you give her the book but say to her that you didn't killed Flemeth

[Ash Wind]

 

She outright betrayed the Dalish clan in the Dlc,outright killed someone for power in DAI and  tried to kill Flemeth through the warden because of a book, she didn't hurt anyone?

It seem a bit odd to say or imply that Mythal taught to Morrigan to disrespect the elves.

 

Um... not really.

 

Betray the Dalish? That implies she had sworn some sort of oath or had some allegiance to the Dalish, she had neither of those. She betrayed no one, killed no one (that we know of) and stole a sacred book. One which, I believe is returned at the end of Witch Hunt. This could be considered aggressively borrowed lol. If the book was so special the Dalish should have been smarter.

 

Its been a while since I played DAI, but I believe the elf was bringing down the temple around the IQ and company to keep the power of the well from them, this could arguably be considered self-defense, though even I thought it was raw with the knife to the back. I'll agree that this wasn't her best moment.

 

Tried to Kill Flemeth? Depends on whether you believe Morrigan believes Flemeth will steal her body. I tend to, in the comic Morrigan's 'sister' Yavana calls Morrigan a misguided child and that Flemeth's possession is a blessing (creepy). Even above and beyond the self-defense argument, as DA2 proves, she tells the Warden the truth when she says she doesn't think you will be really killing Flemeth.

[ThomasBlaine]

It never had anything to do with a genuine desire to help the Warden. First, she needs to stay alive in order to achieve her goal, so fighting is inevitable.

And refusing to accompany the HoF when called would ruin her cover for the true reasons to be there.

 

Morrigan has absolutely no compunctions about insulting and condescending to the both the Warden and Alistair, and her cover is fulfilling her mother's wish to "widen her horizons", saving the Fereldan peasentry from darkspawn being a secondary goal. It would be totally in-character and would not surprise either Warden in the party if she outright refused to participate in random do-gooding. She doesn't.

 

You're right that she has an ulterior motive, but she also has excuses to sit back and avoid working and putting herself in what she perceives as pointless danger. In my mind that does count for something.

 

 

What kind of physical law exist behind thy statement?

If someone is too old it doesn't mean that it have to lose human sensibilities in fact Flemeth could have pursued revenge for herself against Morrigan in the Altar or in the fade if she was killed instead she simply let her go.

These are all legends and tales that you are throwing as facts without evidences.

Seriously you remind me  those  soldiers at Ostagar who held any tale like the ultimate truth.

The whole body snatching thing is just Morrigan's misinterpretation so you are accusing Flemeth based on a falsehood.

Only fact i know about Flemeth is that Maric,the warden,Hawke and the Inquisitor received great help from her and those are facts not tales.

 

You're only really able to empathize with people approximating your own emotional age, that's a constant you see in every human society all over the world. Older kids have problems putting themselves in the minds of younger ones, adults have trouble putting themselves in the minds of children in general unless they're emotionally underdeveloped themselves, and old people have trouble empathizing with anyone much younger.

Several reasons for that, chief among them being that nostalgia completely ruins your ideas how you actually felt and thought long ago. There's some biochemistry too, but I don't feel confident trying to explain that. At the age of over a thousand years, possibly several, Flemeth is most definitely incapable of thinking like an ordinary human, and the games support that pretty consistently. I'd even say that her not caring about revenge is evidence of that more than it's evidence against it.

 

Morrigan talking about how she was raised isn't "tales and legends", it's a first-hand account of how Flemeth treats children in her power. That statement she makes alone would have removed her from Flemeth's custody and very possibly sent Flemeth to prison for child abuse if it'd been made in a modern courthouse even if it wasn't understood as her having forced Morrigan to have sex as a child, which it could be without a problem. And her killing one of Loghain's fellow poachers for sport is definitely a fact, Loghain and Maric find the mutilated corpse strung up in a tree and she brazens admits to killing him.

 

Her helping the protagonists isn't evidence against her being an inhuman monster either, it just implies that she's equally capable of helping people and committing atrocities. That's the very definition of amoral.

 

Why do you say that the body snatching is something Morrigan misinterprets? What are your "evidences" for that?

[Aren]

Um... not really.

 

Betray the Dalish? That implies she had sworn some sort of oath or had some allegiance to the Dalish, she had neither of those. She betrayed no one, killed no one (that we know of) and stole a sacred book. One which, I believe is returned at the end of Witch Hunt. This could be considered aggressively borrowed lol. If the book was so special the Dalish should have been smarter.

 

Its been a while since I played DAI, but I believe the elf was bringing down the temple around the IQ and company to keep the power of the well from them, this could arguably be considered self-defense, though even I thought it was raw with the knife to the back. I'll agree that this wasn't her best moment.

 

Tried to Kill Flemeth? Depends on whether you believe Morrigan believes Flemeth will steal her body. I tend to, in the comic Morrigan's 'sister' Yavana calls Morrigan a misguided child and that Flemeth's possession is a blessing (creepy). Even above and beyond the self-defense argument, as DA2 proves, she tells the Warden the truth when she says she doesn't think you will be really killing Flemeth.

 

Your view of the word "betrayal" seems to be  very static and localized to a militaristic point of view  when it is a word that implies much more.

Arianne:"she presented herself to us in the name of friendship"

 

Instead she deceived them in order to steal their book,thus she perpetrated ipso facto an act of  disloyalty to  benefactors who welcomed her for two days because she did not maintained her word of friendship.

The same Arianne traveled all across of the nation with the warden and was hit by darkspawns,ghosts,sick elves,dragon cultists and a Varterral because Morrigan stole that book which mean that her actions harmed indirectly Arianne.

 

-Abelas case is even beyond is outright murdering(and no he wasn't destroying the temple he operated only into the well in fact no member of the inquisition accuse him of this) and prevented the PC to talk to him about Corypheus secret.

The point here is  the Inquisitor not Abelas.

The decision to kill or not  Abelas was of the Inquisitor (we could have try to capture him) whom Morrigan sworn loyalty,instead she killed him without the authorization of the inquisitor because she wanted power and this is the militaristic kind of  betrayal.

 

 

Flemeth with her doppelgangers  could have prepared whatever ritual was necessary to took her body everywhere and be with Morrigan at the same time,  way before to send her with the warden.  

Yavana,the well of sorrow and Flemeth prove that it was Morrigan who was wrong and didn't understood the book since if FLemeth really wanted her body she could have gained it at any time but she simply can't do it against the will

(dunno if she can use blood magic or the well bounds to overcome the limitaiton).

 

 

 

 

Why do you say that the body snatching is something Morrigan misinterprets? What are your "evidences" for that?

The voices of the well of sorrow,Mythal,Yavana and Flemeth.

Her helping others is not an evidence but legends and tales are evidences?

[ThomasBlaine]

 

I dissent.

Your view of the word "betrayal" seems to be  very static and localized to a militaristic point of view  when it is a word that implies much more.

Arianne:"she presented herself to us in the name of friendship"

Instead she deceived them in order to steal their book,thus she perpetrated ipso facto an act of severe disloyalty to  benefactors who welcomed her for two days, which is a betrayal because she did not maintained her word which was a falsehood.

The same Arianne traveled all across of the nation and was hit by darkspawns,ghosts,dragon cultists and a Varterral because Morrigan stole that book,which mean that her actions harmed Arianne.

 

Abelas case is even beyond is outright murdering(and no he wasn't destroying the temple he operated only into the well in fact no member of the inquisition accuse him of this other than Morrigan) and prevented the PC to talk to the preist about Corypheus secret..

 

Flemeth didn't die for her own magic however that doesn't mean that the act wasn't painful for her since she died.

Flemeth could have  simply took her body way before to send her with the warden and Yavana,the well of sorrow and Flemeth prove that it was Morrigan who was wrong.

 

Indeed. Stealing a book and - gasp - lying is the height of villainy. Morrigan didn't force Arianne to do anything, least of all undertake a suicidal quest. Whatever bruises and minor cuts she sustains over the course of the DLC can hardly be laid directly at Morrigan's door, and even if so it's in the service of locating and accessing the Eluvian network to protect her child, a far better use for said book than it rotting away in a Keeper's tent as a reminder of the elves' lost heritage. And assuming that the Well of sorrows is the key to ultimately beating Corypheus, killing an unstable old elf who never leaves his temple to prevent him from destroying it is arguably the most direct and crucial way she contributes to saving people in any of the games.

 

She also doesn't force you to kill Flemeth, that's entirely your own decision, and some momentary pain and a year or so spent in an amulet in a life spanning millenia doesn't strike me as unfair treatment considering the upbringing she forced on Morrigan, her past atrocities and yes, the threat of her taking Morrigan's body.

 

 

Yavana,the well of sorrow and Flemeth prove that it was Morrigan who was wrong and didn't understood the book

 

 

That's not a sufficient explanation. What about Yavana and the Well of Sorrows is it that proves to you that Flemeth isn't stealing bodies and doesn't deserve being momentarily disabled at least to prevent that from happening?

[Qun00]

You keep dancing around it with irrelevant points like "That's not so bad" and "she didn't use force to accomplish X".

It gets even better at " at least the thief was gonna put it to better use".

Seeking to gain one's trust and then breaking it is the standard definition of betrayal. It is simple.

That's not a sufficient explanation. What about Yavana and the Well of Sorrows is it that proves to you that Flemeth isn't stealing bodies and doesn't deserve being momentarily disabled at least to prevent that from happening?

Uh... Morrigan herself admitting that she was wrong and Flemeth only wanted the Old God soul?

[GoldenGail3]

She also doesn't force you to kill Flemeth, that's entirely your own decision

Doesn't force you to kill Flemeth... Hmm, I think she asks with such niceness to do so... And then leaves if you don't lie to her face about not killing Flemeth..... If you do so. So, yeah, it's not forcing as much as blackmailing you into doing it... I think not.

[ThomasBlaine]

You keep dancing around it with irrelevant points like "That's not so bad" and "she didn't use force to accomplish X".

It gets even better at " at least the thief was gonna put it to better use".

Seeking to gain one's trust and then breaking it is the standard definition of betrayal. It is simple.

 

Heh, lying and stealing a book is still lying and stealing a book, calling it betrayal and yawning about ethics doesn't make it any worse than it actually is. And call me a crazy liberal, but lying and stealing a book isn't a big deal to me. Especially not when, yes, the thief intends to put the book to much better use. Which is to say, any use at all that doesn't involve keeping it hidden and using it to mourn a lost civilization.

 

 

Uh... Morrigan herself admitting that she was wrong and Flemeth only wanted the Old God soul?

 

When does that happen? And even if so, the question of whether Flemeth wanted to steal Morrigan's body in particular like she did her "sisters" or waived that part of her modus operandi to use Morrigan as an incubator is irrelevant to what we were discussing, either way Flemeth is a body-snatching amoral monster that kidnaps and abusively raises little girls to exploit them.

 

 

Doesn't force you to kill Flemeth... Hmm, I think she asks with such niceness to do so... And then leaves if you don't lie to her face about not killing Flemeth..... If you do so. So, yeah, it's not forcing as much as blackmailing you into doing it... I think not.

 

No, that's just her asking you to do it nicely and then leaving if you come back and tell her you haven't. For that to be blackmail, your character would have to be clairvoyant so as to be able to foresee her leaving as a consequence of you not doing her bidding, and she would also have to be aware of and take advantage of that to pressure you into doing it.

 

Essentially, you're metagaming and then blaming her for manipulating you with knowledge of the future that she doesn't have and you shouldn't. If she'd vocally threatened to leave if you didn't kill Flemeth as part of her argument for doing it in the first place then yes, that would have been blackmail. It still wouldn't have been forcing you to do it, but it would definitely have been blackmail. She doesn't, though.

 

 

If someone is saying that 99% of pretty woman behave in certain way then that is  an oversimplification which is a form of close minded thinking.

How someone is raised does not change the ultimate result,if someone is constantly pushing for the killing of other people for the sake of power then it means that this person is lacking any form of basic empathy.

 

A: You're not the "ultimate result" of your own development immediately after escaping an isolated environment as a twenty-yearold. Calling that an oversimplification would be generous.

 

B: Complaining about being asked to put your life on the line to save perfect strangers is not the same thing as "pushing for the killing of other people", the only scenario that even remotely approaches what you're talking about is when she advocates using the Anvil, which wouldn't make her more powerful in the slightest and could easily mean the difference between victory over the darkspawn and defeat.

[Domakir]

She does? When? I don't remember her doing anything of the sort. 

She says that to the Inquisitor after Flemeth removed Urthemiel's soul from Kieran. (Is this sentence well written?)

[ThomasBlaine]

She says that to the Inquisitor after Flemeth removed Urthemiel's soul from Kieran. (Is this sentence well written?)

 

I see. I've found a clip of what you're talking about but never saw anything like it in my own playthrough. Unless it's part of some DLC I haven't played Dragon Age Keep must have glitched or something.

 

Your sentence is fine. You could change "removed" to "removes" if you want to keep the tenses consistent, but it's not very noticeable.

[Ash Wind]

 

 

Your view of the word "betrayal" seems to be  very static and localized to a militaristic point of view  when it is a word that implies much more.

Arianne:"she presented herself to us in the name of friendship"

 

Instead she deceived them in order to steal their book,thus she perpetrated ipso facto an act of  disloyalty to  benefactors who welcomed her for two days because she did not maintained her word of friendship.

The same Arianne traveled all across of the nation with the warden and was hit by darkspawns,ghosts,sick elves,dragon cultists and a Varterral because Morrigan stole that book which mean that her actions harmed indirectly Arianne.

 

-Abelas case is even beyond is outright murdering(and no he wasn't destroying the temple he operated only into the well in fact no member of the inquisition accuse him of this) and prevented the PC to talk to him about Corypheus secret.

The point here is  the Inquisitor not Abelas.

The decision to kill or not  Abelas was of the Inquisitor (we could have try to capture him) whom Morrigan sworn loyalty,instead she killed him without the authorization of the inquisitor because she wanted power and this is the militaristic kind of  betrayal.

 

 

Flemeth with her doppelgangers  could have prepared whatever ritual was necessary to took her body everywhere and be with Morrigan at the same time,  way before to send her with the warden.  

Yavana,the well of sorrow and Flemeth prove that it was Morrigan who was wrong and didn't understood the book since if FLemeth really wanted her body she could have gained it at any time but she simply can't do it against the will

(dunno if she can use blood magic or the well bounds to overcome the limitaiton).

If a CIA spy approaches ISIS in friendship, gets details that help the allies destroy that group of animals… under your logic, that CIA spy has somehow betrayed ISIS?? Is that your point?

 

No. Just No. No on so many levels its not even worth repeating. Morrigan wanted the book, and the Dalish had it, she swindled them, this is not betrayal, this is STEALING.

 

Well of Sorrows… more words that miss the point. You’re weakly trying to use a technicality, that the fact that the IQ was the leader and he/she gets to make the choice, clearly, as the game plays out, that is not the way it is. Morrigan has the right to self-defense and she doesn’t have to wait for the weak IQ to make a decision before she exercises that right. No she wasn’t the leader… no she should just file her nails and wait… clearly she did not.

 

Killing Flemeth… No clue what you’re saying here, please explain in great detail how ‘this’ whatever this is, proves Morrigan was wrong? It’s a fact that Flemeth has lived for centuries, and that no one human body could sustain that lifespan, so she must jump to other bodies. Morrigan’s desire for self-defense is practical.

[Ash Wind]

Doesn't force you to kill Flemeth... Hmm, I think she asks with such niceness to do so... And then leaves if you don't lie to her face about not killing Flemeth..... If you do so. So, yeah, it's not forcing as much as blackmailing you into doing it... I think not.

She doesn't force you... having Morrigan in the party is not a requirement to the Warden completing their task. Its not much different than Alistair leaving you if you don't kill Loghain (despite being a GW sworn to defeat the blight); or dismissing (or killing) Leliana, or Sten or... etc, etc.

 

She presents her case... the Warden makes a decision.

 

If she leaves... she leaves. Archdemon still defeated.

 

Where's the blackmail? If she held the key to defeating the Archdemon, then THAT would be blackmail. She does not.

[Domakir]

If a CIA spy approaches ISIS in friendship, gets details that help the allies destroy that group of animals… under your logic, that CIA spy has somehow betrayed ISIS?? Is that your point?

Are you seriously comparing the Dalish people with ISIS? I get what you're trying to say but you can't compare fantasy with reality.