16171 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

It is precisely at 10:44, although I would recommend watching the whole scene since you're not familiar with it.

[Aren]

 Whatever bruises and minor cuts she sustains over the course of the DLC can hardly be laid directly at Morrigan's door, and even if so it's in the service of locating and accessing the Eluvian network to protect her child, a far better use for said book than it rotting away in a Keeper's tent as a reminder of the elves' lost heritage. 

I understand now it all make sense.

She could have used it better thus she was justified to commit robbery great logic indeed.... ok (and the child is not  mandatory)

 

 Morrigan didn't force Arianne to do anything, least of all undertake a suicidal quest.

Indeed how dare Arianne try to regain the book that belong to her clan?

You're simply  grasping at straws 

 

 And assuming that the Well of sorrows is the key to ultimately beating Corypheus, killing an unstable old elf who never leaves his temple to prevent him from destroying it is arguably the most direct and crucial way she contributes to saving people in any of the games.

 

You have to assume a lot here to imply that Abelas is unstable (what does that mean?) and that as a priest of Mythal is not connected to her goddess thus can summon her like the owner of the well of sorrow.

He was a good resource that could have been captured and Morrigan outright killed him(thus deny your claim that Morrigan never harmed anyone) without ask permission to the Inquisitor.

 

 

 

That's not a sufficient explanation. What about Yavana and the Well of Sorrows is it that proves to you that Flemeth isn't stealing bodies and doesn't deserve being momentarily disabled at least to prevent that from happening?

Those are clear and definitive evidences,while your argumentations don't have any of it.

 

If a CIA spy approaches ISIS in friendship, gets details that help the allies destroy that group of animals… under your logic, that CIA spy has somehow betrayed ISIS?? Is that your point?

 

No. Just No. No on so many levels its not even worth repeating. Morrigan wanted the book, and the Dalish had it, she swindled them, this is not betrayal, this is STEALING.

 

 

This parallel is simply wrong,Isis and CIA with Dalish?

-Seeking to gain one's trust and then breaking it is the standard definition of betrayal. It is simple.

 

 

Well of Sorrows… more words that miss the point. You’re weakly trying to use a technicality, that the fact that the IQ was the leader and he/she gets to make the choice, clearly, as the game plays out, that is not the way it is. Morrigan has the right to self-defense and she doesn’t have to wait for the weak IQ to make a decision before she exercises that right. No she wasn’t the leader… no she should just file her nails and wait… clearly she did not.

 

 

Morrigan is not entitled to make a decision for the Inquisitor.

Defend herself?I clearly missed the part in which Abelas was attacking someone because i clearly remember that he was concentrated with the well.

That's not technicality that ìs the definition of militaristic disloyalty.

 

 

Killing Flemeth… No clue what you’re saying here, please explain in great detail how ‘this’ whatever this is, proves Morrigan was wrong? It’s a fact that Flemeth has lived for centuries, and that no one human body could sustain that lifespan, so she must jump to other bodies. Morrigan’s desire for self-defense is practical.

The point with Flemeth was to prove that morrigan harmed others,so to say that she never harmed anyone is a lie because she ordered her mother's death,caused Abelas death,gambled the life of Arianne and even deceived the warden to convince them to kill Flemeth.

[ThomasBlaine]

I understand now it all make sense.

She could have used it better thus she was justified to commit robbery... ok (and the child is not  mandatory)

 

I would hope that there's a difference between doing something that isn't strictly justified and being a "bad person". And in the case of the book I would personally say it's justified given what she uses it for alone, although it's obviously understandable for the elves not to see it that way.

 

 

Indeed how dare Arianne try to regain the book that belong to her clan?

You're simply  grasping at straws 

 

Nobody says that it's wrong of her to try and recover it, just that it's her decision and not Morrigan's. For someone with such a problem with people using strawman arguments you sure use a lot of them yourself.

 

 

Those are clear and definitive evidences,while your argumentations don't have any of it.

 

Uhm, no, you just said a few names and the name of a location without explaining your reasoning in the slightest. I'm still clueless what exactly you were trying to say.

 

 

This parallel is simply wrong,Isis and CIA with Dalish?

-Seeking to gain one's trust and then breaking it is the standard definition of betrayal. It is simple.

 

It's not the parallel I would have used, but still a fair one. The only difference is that you personally consider the Dalish more sympathetic than Morrigan, whereas in the CIA/ISIS analogy you'd presumably consider the CIA spy the good guy in relative terms. If one is an evil "betrayal" and the other isn't then motivation does matter, and I find opening the Eluvian network to be sufficient to, yes, justify the theft. And the "betrayal". And even Arianne's skinned knees.

 

 

Morrigan is not entitled to make a decision for the Inquisitor.

Defend herself?I clearly missed the part in which Abelas was attacking someone because i clearly remember that he was concentrated with the well.

That's not technicality that ìs the definition of militaristic disloyalty.

 

The point with Flemeth was to prove that morrigan harmed others,so to say that she never harmed anyone is a lie because she ordered her mother's death,caused Abelas death,gambled the life of Arianne and even deceived the warden to convince them to kill Flemeth.

 

The Inquisitor isn't entitled to make that decision for Morrigan either. She isn't subject to his/her military authority so far as I know, and if you haven't been paying attention all throughout the games then I'll remind you that backstabbing is a very, very effective method of getting someone to stop doing something dangerous.

 

Flemeth doesn't die and Arianne and the Warden both make their own decisions, she doesn't gamble with their lives or deceive them into doing anything. I'll concede that her stabbing Abelas can be seen as attacking someone she isn't strictly supposed to if that's where your Inquisitor is coming from at that moment, but it's certainly not without reason and does in fact serve the greater good. Abelas might possibly be able to summon Mythal as you say, but under those circumstances he obviously can't be relied on to actually do so. The Well can, and Mythal must be summoned.

[BurningLizard]

This is taking forever. I think I'm going to use my secret psychic powers to look into the future to see how this argument ends.

 

...

 

......

 

..........

 

Oh look, it ends in a couple hours with everyone agreeing in the end.

 

....

 

Wait...no, I think I accidentally looked into some kind of alternate reality where everything is gumdrops and sunshine. Lemme try again.

 

.....

 

..........

 

Oh look, it ends weeks later with nobody agreeing on anything and everyone having the same exact opinion as before. Huh. Imagine that. Who ever would have thought that about an argument on the internet.

 

Oh well, call me when there's something interesting going on, instead of the same old argument.

[Qun00]

As a general principle, I only reply three times maximum.

Nobody can change anyone's mind about anything, regardless of what it is. The only exception is when one of the parties still had some doubts.

[BurningLizard]

That's a good principle. I've just spent too much time arguing on the internet to even bother anymore.

[GoldenGail3]

That's a good principle. I've just spent too much time arguing on the internet to even bother anymore.

I've spent enough time auguring to go quickly bored of it... No seriously, you'll see me leave conversion due to feeling bored, lol. Like any Non Alistair conversion is boring to me now...

[BurningLizard]

Yeah, I kind of reached a point where I've realized that I like what I like, and if others like it, great, if not whatever. I don't have to convince people that Morrigan is an amazing character to continue enjoying her story.

[Domakir]

Well... lets change the subject. I'm replaying Origins again and I always refuse the DR but I'm curious. What did you choose, DR or not? And why?

[Domakir]

Like any Non Alistair conversion is boring to me now...

I stopped talking about Alistair because every time I said something nice about him there was someone very sensitive insulting and I got tired.

[GoldenGail3]

I stopped talking about Alistair because every time I said something nice about him there was someone very sensitive insulting and I got tired.

Yeah, i know; i got curbstopped by two people over it... Multiply times, I'm so glad I met you, Doma. You understand. 

[ThomasBlaine]

Well... lets change the subject. I'm replaying Origins again and I always refuse the DR but I'm curious. What did you choose, DR or not? And why?

 

I'm in the opposite boat. The Dark Ritual is such a cool and mysterious "third option" that I seem to have picked it in every playthrough I've ever done. Part of it is the lure of extra content down the line(although that apparently fell through thanks to Dragon Age Keep), extra Morrigan and the ability to canonically import your original Warden into Awakening and Witch Hunt.

 

Another part is that literally choosing to die is such an extreme and difficult concept that I've never felt that my Wardens had the character to justify it. Anybody can get swept up in an emotional moment or decide their own lives worthless during a particular low, but rationally throwing away your only means of surviving to the end of the week is something else. Resolving to die on behalf of a country of stupid, lazy cowards who've done nothing for you in return for all your work isn't a natural or sane decision, and treating it as obvious kind of undermines the magnitude of a sacrifice like that. And then there's the factor of a beautiful woman practically offering you her womb free of charge, which seems like a juvenile concern in comparison but is something males of all species have been hard-wired to take advantage of by millions of years of evolution, making it not inconsequential to the decision.

 

I'm currently playing a Dalish who took the banishment from his clan rather badly, is having a very hard time appreciating human society or the Grey Warden creed and is not looking forward to ordering around or being ordered around by shemlen for the rest of his life even should he survive the Blight. Through a combination of Dalish culture centered around self-sacrifice for the sake of the clan, general depression, an obvious lack of future prospects and not being sexually interested in human women despite considering Morrigan a dear friend, I think he might be my first character that I can see refusing to do the Dark Ritual. Which means I'll also be able to go forward with a sleazy, domineering gloryhound of an Orlesian Warden Commander come Awakening, something I'm very much anticipating.

[Qun00]

Ahh, the Dark Ritual. Always starts the longest debates.

Is it morally questionable? Yes. But it also doesn't make sense to sacrifice your life when it's unnecessary for accomplishing your goal. To take that route just because it is the way it's always been done.

And the way Solas implies that archdemon slaying is a poor way to end the Blight tells me that preserving Urthemiel's soul is one step in the right direction.

[sylvanaerie]

I dunno.  I've done all four scenarios.  I usually take the dark ritual because I like living to the end of the game to enjoy it and I like Morrigan's scenes as a mother in Inquisition.  It gives a lot of insight to her and Flemeth and their relationship.

 

The DR is the only way an Alistair romancer is going to get a happy ending.

 

Of the four, though I'd rather do a US than the other two lame ass endings.  Seriously pissed off the first time I did it and Alistair (and he wasn't even the LI) was dead and everyone was just standing there throwing a freaking party.  I wanted to toss my monitor out the window.  Bioware really screwed the pooch on that one.  Same with Redeemer, like it was supposed to be Loghain's big redemption and the only one who mentions his sacrifice is his daughter in one throwaway line.  Lame, lame, lame.  Bioware should have given us a funeral if ANYone died, not that lame ass party.

 

Besides, any warden worth his salt isn't going to toss a fellow warden under a bus rather than take the blow himself.  That's just cowardly in my mind, even moreso than doing the DR is.  Especially knowing you could have saved them and you just toss them away like yesterday's garbage.  The very least you can do since you're making the choice of "yes" or "no" to Morrigan is for you to do it yourself.

[Qun00]

It isn't easy to be Alistair's friend as a guy, since he doesn't approve of the ways you can survive. But those who romance him get the short end of the stick as well.

The happy ending through the DR may be good enough for most people, but certainly not ideal. It already is bad enough that it requires Alistair to have sex with another woman, but it's also a ritual he finds disgusting (as we learn in The Silent Grove) performed with someone he hates.

And as a bonus, Alistair has a son outside the relationship.

[Aren]

Resolving to die on behalf of a country of stupid, lazy cowards who've done nothing....

What about those soldiers who fought at Ostagar,those soldiers of Loghain's army who fought in Denerim,Eamon's knights who helped the warden and the Redcliffe militia who participated in the final battle?

Spoiler

 

And the way Solas implies that archdemon slaying is a poor way to end the Blight tells me that preserving Urthemiel's soul is one step in the right direction.

As for Solas, I'm just ignoring what he thinks is best entirely until given reason to do otherwise. His view of what should happen is that the Veil is eliminated, which is apparently implied to be going to kill a whole bunch of people and is outright stated will allow spirits to manifest wherever.

 

 

 

Besides, any warden worth his salt isn't going to toss a fellow warden under a bus rather than take the blow himself.  That's just cowardly in my mind, even moreso than doing the DR is.  Especially knowing you could have saved them and you just toss them away like yesterday's garbage.  The very least you can do since you're making the choice of "yes" or "no" to Morrigan is for you to do it yourself.

By that logic Loghain and Alistair are both cowards if they allow the HoF to commit the US.

I think Bioware made the right decision to include this third option rather than the two extreme of the US and the DR which require a reckless mindset.

I honestly don't understand why those wardens who survived without the DR should be labeled as cowards when i think is the exact opposite since they gambled their own life until the very end thus shown to be very courageous.

[Qun00]

Those are completely unrelated issues. And while I wouldn't expect Solas to be wise, his knowledge is very reliable.

[SgtSteel91]

I'm not big into stories where the Hero dies, I spared Loghain so he could work to redeem himself and dying to the Archdemon is not enough (and I really like his role in Inquisition), and I'm interested in the possible story aspects that the DR leaves open (even if it's good or bad). I also make sure the Warden follows Morrigan through the Eluvian so he can raise Kieran too. Like, the only negative I found with the DR was that Morrigan left.

[Qun00]

I mainly changed my mind because my Hawke and Inquisitor already will get bittersweet endings of their own. At least *someone* should get to be happy.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

What about those soldiers who fought at Ostagar,those soldiers of Loghain's army who fought in Denerim,Eamon's knights who helped the warden and the Redcliffe militia who participated in the final battle?

 

 

You really are looking for something to fight about, aren't you? My point is that most people in the Warden's shoes simply wouldn't feel obligated to die on Ferelden's behalf just because Riorden says so. The Warden has been exiled from their home almost regardless of origin, pressed into military service give or take the deaths of their loved ones, hunted like an apostate, forced to live on the road for the better part of a year and stuck their neck out countless times for a bunch of humans/shemlen/opsiders and ungrateful dwarves who have been mostly twiddling their thumbs, squabbling and screwing each other over.

 

The soldiers at Ostagar are long dead, the Battle of Denerim hasn't been fought yet by the time the Warden has to make this decision, and Redcliffe has four times relied on the Warden to save their sorry hides without offering anything in return besides an ugly helmet, a comparatively useless shield and permission to stay overnight at Eamon's compound in Denerim while he uses you to get a foot in the door with the new generation of royalty for himself. That isn't the only way to look at it, but someone who had really been put through all this could certainly be excused for seeing it as such.

 

The Sacrifice is arguably the right thing to do, but it would take a very noble, chivalrous and/or irrational person, or one who truly didn't value their own life, to actually go through with it. And those don't hang on trees. Pretending that they do, and that your character automatically must be one just because s/he's the main character, cheapens that kind of self-sacrifice to me.

 

I agree with your final statement that you can't call the Warden cowardly regardless at this point. The Dark Ritual turning out to have catastrophic consequences or risking being the one to land the killing blow against the Archdemon probably isn't even the worst gamble s/he's done with her own life on the line after all those battles.

[sylvanaerie]

 

 

By that logic Loghain and Alistair are both cowards if they allow the HoF to commit the US.

I think Bioware made the right decision to include this third option rather than the two extreme of the US and the DR which require a reckless mindset.

I honestly don't understand why those wardens who survived without the DR should be labeled as cowards when i think is the exact opposite since they gambled their own life until the very end thus shown to be very courageous.

 

 Saying Loghain or Alistair would be cowardly for letting the PC do it isn't the same since they aren't the ones making the choice, the PC is.

Spoiler

 *Except in the instance of a romanced/in love Alistair who takes the choice out of the PC's hands entirely*.

Because the PC is in charge of the final battle, not Alistair or Loghain.  Alistair placed the PC in charge as senior warden from the beginning.  The PC is more senior than Loghain who has been a warden only a tiny march of days.  There are reasons it's a long standing tradition that the most senior warden present is the one to take the blow, beyond just that the taint would be overwhelming him.  It's his responsibility for the lives of those in his command, not just his own.  To me, to order someone to their death just because you don't want to die is cowardly.  It may be human but still cowardly.  Duncan tells Alistair and the PC (in Ostagar) if the archdemon is seen, no heroics, to let the senior wardens handle it.  I fully expect he would have taken the blow had it been encountered in Ostagar or he'd lived to make it to the end game.  He wouldn't have ordered the PC or Alistair to do it.  Riordan wouldn't have ordered Alistair, Loghain or the HoF to do it, he would have done it himself as senior warden present.

 

It's the HoF's choice who kills the Archdemon.  Knowing he refused the DR, knowing that his fellow warden will die because of his choice, he/she didn't 'gamble with their own life' at all.  They know their life isn't going to be snuffed out since they aren't doing the killing, but they do know their fellow warden will die.  That's not a gamble at all, it's a fact.  A conscious act of will, not a random death in battle.

 

*edit* To 'be there at the final fight' doesn't take any extraordinary amount of courage.  Redcliffe soldiers, mages, Dalish hunters and dwarven warriors are all there too risking their lives, and they are even less equipped to battle darkspawn than the PC who has warden advantages.  To 'take the gamble you are potentially the last warden left standing to do the deed' isn't particularly heroic either.  Everyone else out there can potentially lose their lives too. Soldiers go to war all the time, they aren't particularly braver than any of their fellows out there in the trenches risking their lives as well.  To risk or give your life for another, to embrace the end knowing it's your end.  That takes rare courage and elevates one beyond the rank and file and makes for true heroes, and in my mind is the only true heroic ending to the game.

 

Kind of like the one you're supposed to be at the end of the game.  It's why I always felt Bioware dropped the ball with the Redeemer/WC endings.  They never felt very satisfying to me at all, except for the instance of the result in the spoiler above.  I did both once only for the achievements and never again.

 

*Edit* In my mind, the DR is a cowardly option as well, but I had varying reasons for picking it.  (One), my lady wardens didn't want to lose Alistair or (two) my warden never wanted to be a warden and chose it as a way to ensure he or his friend wouldn't die.  And I've never hated Loghain enough to want him to die that way.  Even my ambitious asshat King Cousland, couldn't toss his friend under a bus and there was no way he was going to die for the freaking wardens.  Plus it added a delicious bit of 'dirty laundry' for his story to have created a Cousland heir (Kieran also was potentially a prince since Gawain was married to Anora) and no one except he and Morrigan knew.  I can also see someone romancing Morrigan who seizes this as one last chance to be with the woman he loves.  There is, of course, the idea you may be unleashing something worse on the world, presenting its own plethora of unpleasant possibilities or that the DR won't work at all as Morrigan says and you die anyway, making it a 'gamble' as well.

[Domakir]

Besides, any warden worth his salt isn't going to toss a fellow warden under a bus rather than take the blow himself.

I suppose it depends on how you see it. My character didn't want to be a GW in the first place so why should he die when Loghain offers himself seeking redemption?
My warden would only do the US if Loghain wasn't an option, he wouldn't ler his friend die and that's why I made Alistair king. At lest that way he is alive even if he is mad at me.

[BurningLizard]

Well... lets change the subject. I'm replaying Origins again and I always refuse the DR but I'm curious. What did you choose, DR or not? And why?

I'm of two minds. On the one hand it's probably better for Morrigan in the long run to not get what she wanted. But on the other hand from my character's point of view he trusts her enough to believe she has good intentions with offering the DR. Also, the fact that he's the last Cousland (or at least he thought he was at the time, means that the idea of having family of his own weighs heavily on his mind while making the decision). Sure she says he won't see her again, but immediately after he's recovered from the battle he's out there looking for her. Since he has little knowledge in magic, the repercussions of his decision may not properly register. It was kind of an emotionally charged decision.

[ThomasBlaine]

I suppose it depends on how you see it. My character didn't want to be a GW in the first place so why should he die when Loghain offers himself seeking redemption?
My warden would only do the US if Loghain wasn't an option, he wouldn't ler his friend die and that's why I made Alistair king. At lest that way he is alive even if he is mad at me.

 

This is where I'm at too. After everything Loghain has been party to, and him being perfectly comfortable dying for his homeland, it's hard to justify your much-younger PC going "No, I should do it, because I've been a Grey Warden a fraction of time longer than you."

 

The whole point of the most senior Warden striking the final blow is to let the one closest to the Calling, and so with the least to lose, bite the bullet. The Calling doesn't manifest until around thirty years after your Joining according to Alistair. Loghain is in his fifties and most likely doesn't have thirty years left in him regardless. With the PC being first in his/her twenties at the most Loghain has by far the least to lose, making him the rational and honorable choice to perform the Sacrifice, which he's totally on-board with.

 

The only thing that would balance the equation in the PC's mind would be if s/he didn't realize that s/he's already been ordering people to their deaths for hours at that point, views Loghain as much more important to the Grey Wardens' post-Blight future than him/herself, or personally finds the prospects of that future so unappealing that death by Archdemon with Loghain going on in his/her stead is preferable.

 

Personally though, I'd have had them both race to kill the Archdemon at first opportunity not caring who turned out to be sacrificed so long as they didn't waste time to argue and gave it even the slightest chance to escape, counterattack or take an unfortunate hit from a non-Warden.

 

 

*edit* To 'be there at the final fight' doesn't take any extraordinary amount of courage.  Redcliffe soldiers, mages, Dalish hunters and dwarven warriors are all there too risking their lives, and they are even less equipped to battle darkspawn than the PC who has warden advantages.

 

I think the point was that with everything the PC has voluntarily gone through even before the Battle of Denerim, s/he can't be called a coward regardless of his/her decision at the end.

 

 

[Aren]

 My point is that most people in the Warden's shoes simply wouldn't feel obligated to die on Ferelden's behalf just because Riorden says so.

The Warden has been exiled from their home almost regardless of origin, pressed into military service give or take the deaths of their loved ones, hunted like an apostate, forced to live on the road for the better part of a year and stuck their neck out countless times for a bunch of humans/shemlen/opsiders 

 

 

Most people were willing to risk their life against the blight thus undermine any accuse of cowardice you may desire to throw up on them.

The warden has been(boring list of unfortunate events)and?Everyone has its own problems in this world try to use them as a way to victimize how unfortunate the warden was doesn't have to put the warden on a pedestal compared to the Ferelden denizens.

 

Those are completely unrelated issues. And while I wouldn't expect Solas to be wise, his knowledge is very reliable.

Those issues explain that Solas is someone who  encourage magic whatever or not bad things happen as a result of it.

He is the last person who should judge whatever or not an old god is worth preserving since at one point he mock them when discuss with Cassandra and into another point seems concerned about their death,he clearly doesn't know where he stand.

 

 Saying Loghain or Alistair would be cowardly for letting the PC do it isn't the same since they aren't the ones making the choice

Alistair and Loghain are the one making the choice since  each of them for their own reasons believe that it is their mandate with Loghain that literally implore the warden for the sacrifice.

 

Because the PC is in charge of the final battle, not Alistair or Loghain.  Alistair placed the PC in charge as senior warden from the beginning.  The PC is more senior than Loghain who has been a warden only a tiny march of days.  There are reasons it's a long standing tradition that the most senior warden present is the one to take the blow, beyond just that the taint would be overwhelming him. 

A part from the fact that i don't see any inherent value into the "tradition"  of the killing blow when took as a kind of idealistic concept since it was built upon practical reasons from the wardens of the past.

Seniors wardens took the final blow because they were already dying for the calling or were in proximity of their calling and couldn't have been  productive anymore for the order like the young wardens,any kind of idealistic concept that came afterwards is not in any way justified.

Having said that we have Alistair that is from a technical point of view the senior warden and that he wasn't leading doesn't matter by that logic the HoF is more senior than Riordan as well if seniority is just a matter of being in charge.

Loghain instead had the desire to kill the archdemon to the point of asking several times to be redeemed even before the battle.

Being the ex-general who caused part of the disaster andbeing in debt with the warden for his own life are all things that matter.

 Duncan tells Alistair and the PC (in Ostagar) if the archdemon is seen, no heroics, to let the senior wardens handle it.  I fully expect he would have taken the blow had it been encountered in Ostagar or he'd lived to make it to the end game.  He wouldn't have ordered the PC or Alistair to do it.  Riordan wouldn't have ordered Alistair, Loghain or the HoF to do it, he would have done it himself as senior warden present.

 

 

They wouldn't have used two young wardens but not because they were idealistic because they were the seniors,had more experience and knew about the short amount of lifespan they had(since Archdemons accelerate the calling)

 

 

 

It's the HoF's choice who kills the Archdemon.  Knowing he refused the DR, knowing that his fellow warden will die because of his choice, he/she didn't 'gamble with their own life' at all.  They know their life isn't going to be snuffed out since they aren't doing the killing, but they do know their fellow warden will die.  That's not a gamble at all, it's a fact.  A conscious act of will, not a random death in battle.

 

 

I don't understand what you mean?

Unless the warden has some foreshadowing capacity that would put even Flemeth to shame,i don't see how the warden is able to predict that the wardens companions will reach the archdemon with 100% of accuracy.

More likely those warden refused the DR and relied upon Riordan.

 

 

 

 

*edit* To 'be there at the final fight' doesn't take any extraordinary amount of courage.  Redcliffe soldiers, mages, Dalish hunters and dwarven warriors are all there too risking their lives, and they are even less equipped to battle darkspawn than the PC who has warden advantages.  To 'take the gamble you are potentially the last warden left standing to do the deed' isn't particularly heroic either.  Everyone else out there can potentially lose their lives too. Soldiers go to war all the time, they aren't particularly braver than any of their fellows out there in the trenches risking their lives as well.  To risk or give your life for another, to embrace the end knowing it's your end.  That takes rare courage and elevates one beyond the rank and file and makes for true heroes, and in my mind is the only true heroic ending to the game.

 

 

You should tell that to the like of Carver,Bethany,Aveline and Hawke who were fleeing from the blight instead to fight it before to say that it doesn't require great courage to even remain in Ferelden.

Those courageous elves of the Dalish people who are mostly hated by the society were defending the city  while humans soldiers were seeking refuge in others nations...

The warden risked life without the shield of the dark ritual for the sake of the entire continent as such is even more than courageous especially if took Logahin on the mission with no certainty that he would have not caused troubles in Denerim like going on the "mhawaaaa mode bye bye warden" good luck... like he did with Cailan.

they were courageous like the US wardens without being dead.

 

 

Kind of like the one you're supposed to be at the end of the game.  It's why I always felt Bioware dropped the ball with the Redeemer/WC endings.  They never felt very satisfying to me at all, except for the instance of the result in the spoiler above.  I did both once only for the achievements and never again.

 

Instead i had the feeling that bioware dropped the balls with the ritual because in order to make it tempting they filled DAO with tons of plot holes and even killed Riordan in the most stupid way possible.

 

When it comes to Morrigan both in DAO and in DAI there are several plot holes generated by the subquests that involve her that severely undermined the consistency of the whole main plot.