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[Addai]

Terra_Ex wrote...

I'll fix this for the next release of the Morrigan Restoration Patch, since it's governed by Morrigan's flags

This banter file probably needs going over with a fine tooth comb though, I don't doubt there's more stuff in here failing to trigger.

Anyway, I have some work to do...

Ooh, never heard that.  Wow.  It's like with ejoslin's Zevran fix- working on one of the NPCs yields stuff for the others as well.

The catfights between Leliana and Morrigan are terrible and delicious.  Should definitely be there!  Zevran and Alistair have a bit of a jealousy thing going, too, but it is more subtle.

[Master Shiori]

Terra, do you know how far Charsen got with his gatekiss mod for Morri?

Also, is he planning on adding the kiss back into the Dark Ritual scene?

EDIT:

Oh, Addai is back. *waves*

Modifié par Master Shiori, 09 mai 2010 - 06:14 .

[blademaster7]

Terra_Ex wrote...

and i have nothing new to report atm, unless blademaster has made any new discoveries?

I think I'm done...

Unless you count the missing "kiss her" option for Leliana. If you do it in front of Morrigan she will object. lol

I think I've seen it in a mod somewhere but I don't have it anymore.

[Terra_Ex]

Master Shiori wrote...

Terra, do you know how far Charsen got with his gatekiss mod for Morri?

Also, is he planning on adding the kiss back into the Dark Ritual scene?

EDIT:

Oh, Addai is back. *waves*

Forums are extremely laggy for me atm...

I believe he's pretty much finished Gatekisses, I have his files on my machine atm, just need to test things and finalise the implementation, my toolset is setting records for its snail like pace atm, but I'm hoping I'll be able to successfully import Charsen's work very shortly.

I have asked Charsen and he was happy to take a look at the DR kiss scene, I'm sure he'll be taking a look when he gets some free time.

@blademaster - I'm willing to bet that you'll stumble across something new within the next few days
Do you mean Leliana is supposed to have a "kiss her" option? I think Dialogue Tweaks added that in... On subject of Leli, how severe are the bugs in her dialogue/scripts and have any other mods addressed them?

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 09 mai 2010 - 07:56 .

[blademaster7]

The "kiss Leliana" option is nowhere to be found in the toolset. I don't know how the mod works but  the person who created it, apparently, found a bunch of scrap lines from companions and added them.

If you kiss her in front of Morrigan, it goes like this(it's not the exact dialogue.. just what I remember)...

PC: (Kiss her)
Leliana: Oh.. Giggles

Morrigan: I do not share! <_<

Leliana: Or... maybe not.
*kiss interrupted*

Morrigan dissaproves...

Good stuff...

Modifié par blademaster7, 09 mai 2010 - 08:32 .

[Brockololly]

Well, I just wrapped up my 1st mage playthrough last night- for the 1st time I spared Loghain and had a hardened Alistair marry Anora. I like Loghain but can't help but feel like a jerk towards Alistair when you make Loghain a Warden.

Anyway, the thing that struck me was when you chat with Alistair and Loghain during the Coronation is how both of them really seem to emphasize how the Grey Wardens want to know how you survived. Specifically these lines:

Alistair: The Grey Wardens seem to be mighty curious as to just how you managed to pull that off without dying.
PC: Morrigan saved me. With magic.
Alistair: That might also explain why she ran off right after the battle. The Grey Wardens will be interested in figuring out just how she did that.

Then Loghain has his mention of how the Orlesian Grey Wardens have been persistent in questioning him on how the PC survived. Thats not to mention some of the sequel bait dialogue you can have with Loghain regarding the OGB if he knew about the Ritual. For example:

Loghain: I cannot help but wonder if the price was worth it. I shudder to think what the witch will do with any child she conceives.
PC: I don't care what she does.
Loghain: You may, in time. If I have learned anything, it is that your decisions will always come back to haunt you.

Loghain: I cannot help but wonder if the price was worth it. I shudder to think what the witch will do with any child she conceives.
PC: I intend to go after her.
Loghain: Oh? I understand that she disappeared right after the battle. No doubt she does not wish to be found.
                 If you intend to chase after her, I doubt it will be a simple task.

Loghain: I cannot help but wonder if the price that we eventually pay will be worth it. There are things worse than death, after all.

So, yeah some of that sort of dialogue makes me hopeful we'll either get to track down Morrigan or at least see her and the OGB again in the future. I mean, come on tracking Morrigan down won't be a simple task but dammit neither was single handedly stopping a Blight before it even started! It would just be such a waste to brush this whole plot line aside in future games- whether you did the Ritual or not, its such a good opportunity to show the long range consequences of your actions for better or worse.

And after playing through the DR scene for the 1st time in a while- I really, really hate that scene. It just really really bothers me the way its delivered. Its one of those things where the 1st time I played it and went through it I was more shocked at everything so I didn't quite process alot of it, but after repeated playthroughs the more you dissect that scene the more cookie cutter it seems and the more obvious it is that the devs are just wielding the Plot Hammer of Doom at the expense of sensible role-playing choices and adequate characterization. 

Ahh well, hopefully Bioware gets its act together for DA2...

Modifié par Brockololly, 09 mai 2010 - 08:50 .

[Terra_Ex]

Brockololly wrote...

Well, I just wrapped up my 1st mage playthrough last night- for the 1st time I spared Loghain and had a hardened Alistair marry Anora. I like Loghain but can't help but feel like a jerk towards Alistair when you make Loghain a Warden.

Anyway, the thing that struck me was when you chat with Alistair and Loghain during the Coronation is how both of them really seem to emphasize how the Grey Wardens want to know how you survived. Specifically these lines:

Alistair: The Grey Wardens seem to be mighty curious as to just how you managed to pull that off without dying.
PC: Morrigan saved me. With magic.
Alistair: That might also explain why she ran off right after the battle. The Grey Wardens will be interested in figuring out just how she did that.

Then Loghain has his mention of how the Orlesian Grey Wardens have been persistent in questioning him on how the PC survived. Thats not to mention some of the sequel bait dialogue you can have with Loghain regarding the OGB if he knew about the Ritual. For example:

Loghain: I cannot help but wonder if the price was worth it. I shudder to think what the witch will do with any child she conceives.
PC: I don't care what she does.
Loghain: You may, in time. If I have learned anything, it is that your decisions will always come back to haunt you.

Loghain: I cannot help but wonder if the price was worth it. I shudder to think what the witch will do with any child she conceives.
PC: I intend to go after her.
Loghain: Oh? I understand that she disappeared right after the battle. No doubt she does not wish to be found.
                 If you intend to chase after her, I doubt it will be a simple task.

Loghain: I cannot help but wonder if the price that we eventually pay will be worth it. There are things worse than death, after all.

So, yeah some of that sort of dialogue makes me hopeful we'll either get to track down Morrigan or at least see her and the OGB again in the future. I mean, come on tracking Morrigan down won't be a simple task but dammit neither was single handedly stopping a Blight before it even started! It would just be such a waste to brush this whole plot line aside in future games- whether you did the Ritual or not, its such a good opportunity to show the long range consequences of your actions for better or worse.

Some interesting lines there, especially from Loghain. It does bring us full circle to the fact it has to be the Warden that deals with this thread if there is be any element of satisfaction for the player. Encountering Morri/whatever trouble she unleashed as an unrelated character will completely kill the plot thread for me. The reason I don't want Morri to be the central focus for DA2 is the larger role she has, the smaller the chance that she'll be a returning party member. I'm sure the writers have some grand scheme in mind, but I hope this time whats on paper actually makes it into the final game.

Brockololly wrote...
And after playing through the DR scene for the 1st time in a while- I really, really hate that scene. It just really really bothers me the way its delivered. Its one of those things where the 1st time I played it and went through it I was more shocked at everything so I didn't quite process alot of it, but after repeated playthroughs the more you dissect that scene the more cookie cutter it seems and the more obvious it is that the devs are just wielding the Plot Hammer of Doom at the expense of sensible role-playing choices and adequate characterization. 

Ahh well, hopefully Bioware gets its act together for DA2...

The scene as it stands lets down Morrigan as a character so much, its a really disappointing way to end the game. Much as I respect and enjoy Aimo's work, the thought of having to settle for a chopped down game with each subsequent DA release and having to find out "what was supposed to have happened if we'd had the time" through a bunch of images & text is not a prospect that I particularly relish.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 09 mai 2010 - 09:06 .

[blademaster7]

Heh... I read those in the toolset. Here's what Alistair says if he knows about the ritual.

Alistair:  I guess Morrigan was telling the truth after all. About the... ritual.

Alistair: The rest of the Grey Wardens haven't arrived yet from Orlais, but they've already sent... questions. What should I tell them?

PC: Tell them the truth.

Alistair: That a maleficar saved you and then ran off? I'm not sure you want that. Or Morrigan. Or me, even.

Alistair: No, I suppose I'll just keep that to myself. I can shrug and look stupid. It's a talent.

Speaking of Morrigan, do you know where she went? I'm told she vanished right after the battle. No good-byes or anything.

PC: She doesn't want to be followed.

Alistair: I'm just concerned about what that ritual is going to cost, eventually. Sigh


And there's more if you decide to remain with the Grey Wardens. This is the epilogue slide

The companions who had traveled with <FirstName/> eventually scattered to the four winds, drawn either by personal duty or the call to further adventure. The Grey Wardens welcomed their hero back into the fold--even if the suspicions of those who wondered how <FirstName/> managed to survive were sometimes given quiet voice.

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...
Some interesting lines there, especially from Loghain. It does bring us full circle to the fact it has to be the Warden that deals with this thread if there is be any element of satisfaction for the player. Encountering Morri/whatever trouble she unleashed as an unrelated character will completely kill the plot thread for me. The reason I don't want Morri to be the central focus for DA2 is the larger role she has, the smaller the chance that she'll be a returning party member. I'm sure the writers have some grand scheme in mind, but I hope this time whats on paper actually makes it into the final game.

Bingo- thats what my main concern is right now. I'm quite confident that Morrigan will show up in a future DA game- of that I have no doubt. The question is how she shows up- will she be a party member, make a typical disappointing Bioware cameo ala Liara in ME2 or Wynne in Awakening where they act all weird and just shove a mission at the PC's face or will they make Morrigan a villain/NPC who we only encounter a couple times and see in some cutscenes? Obviously if we have any hope of continuing her romance, she'd likely need to be a party member again, as the whole non-party member as romance thing tends not to work too well.

Terra_Ex wrote...

The scene as it stands lets down Morrigan as a character so much, its a really disappointing way to end the game. Much as I respect and enjoy Aimo's work, the thought of having to settle for a chopped down game with each subsequent DA release and having to find out "what was supposed to have happened if we'd had the time" through a bunch of images & text is not a prospect that I particularly relish.

I think I said it just on the last page or so, but in a story heavy game like DAO you can't skimp on the endings. I'm sympathetic to the fact that tough cuts need to be made to get the game out of the door, but in a narrative /character driven game like DAO the beginning and end need to be some of the stronger parts of the game. The problem with the DR is that it seems (IMO) that Bioware just didn't want to invest the resources into making that scene unique for romancing and friendly Wardens. Instead we get a cookie cutter scene that as it plays out does not make much sense character wise and just seems like sequel bait, what with the lack of role playing choices.

I'd agree with the points Barbarossa brings up often regarding the DR- Morrigan just does a terrible job trying to convince the Warden to do the deed. And I love Claudia Black, but her kind of insidious tone with some of the lines and the way the cinematics play out making Morrigan look like a conniving, sneaky witch thief really undercut any character development the friendly/romancing Warden has made with Morrigan up to that point. I'm not blaming the cinematics people or Claudia Black in that sense- Morrigan's mannerisms work fine there for the Warden that hasn't made an effort to get to know her.

But for the romancing/friendly Warden, even if Morrigan was trying to hide behind her tough witch facade, Morrigan's character development up to that point merited a different cutscene than the one we currently have. In a character/story driven game, its a significant enough point that they shouldn't have cut it because as it is, its so bad that some people think that Morrigan has been possessed by Flemeth she is acting so out of character for the friendly/romancing Warden. Scenes like that are basically the "reward" scenes for the player where you should be able to see how your actions throughout the game have affected the characters/world. So to just give out a "one size fits all" scene like the DR at the end of the game? It just turns off alot of people and leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

[Brockololly]

I know some people think there isn't much left to do as the Warden, but I think it would be really cool to see the Wardens investigating how you survived- kind of like how in The Calling its implied how the Wardens are researching about how Fiona hasn't succumbed to the Taint. It would just be neat to examine more of the Warden culture outside of Ferelden, in lands like Orlais or the Anderfels where the Wardens are more numerous and you'd have a broad range of Warden types. Thats what I liked about The Calling, was that you got to see different types of Wardens-not everyone was the elder Warden type like Rhiordan or Dunacan instead you had  those that would go to questionable means to stop the Blight and those that were a bit more flexible/strict in their duty.

Modifié par Brockololly, 09 mai 2010 - 09:42 .

[blademaster7]

So, the gate kiss will make it into the game? According to the toolset it is supposed to take place BEFORE the last line. Just pointing this out for the millionth time...

[Terra_Ex]

Brockololly wrote...

I know some people think there isn't much left to do as the Warden, but I think it would be really cool to see the Wardens investigating how you survived- kind of like how in The Calling its implied how the Wardens are researching about how Fiona hasn't succumbed to the Taint. It would just be neat to examine more of the Warden culture outside of Ferelden, in lands like Orlais or the Anderfels where the Wardens are more numerous and you'd have a broad range of Warden types. Thats what I liked about The Calling, was that you got to see different types of Wardens-not everyone was the elder Warden type like Rhiordan or Dunacan instead you had  those that would go to questionable means to stop the Blight and those that were a bit more flexible/strict in their duty.

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread (and the advantages it can bring to a series) and instead stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

People also seem to be under the impression that the Warden "must" be fighting darkspawn. Lets take BG1 - you were a student at Candlekeep and your main task was tracking down your fathers killer, then BG2 - you're kidnapped taken completely out of your comfort zone (new lands, new enemies, new allies) and tasked initially with freeing your childhood friend. Two separate stories strengthened by a link between the two games - your PC. The Warden is no more tied in to "being a Warden" than the Godchild was tied into his task at the end of BG1. Would BG2 have been as successful without its BG1 roots - I'm saying no. The end of DA1 was nowhere near epic enough to constitute the finale of the Warden's story.

If you've played Bioware's "better" titles, such as BG, you have a much greater frame of reference as how a story can pan out over a series of titles and I know for sure I want the Warden's story to continue for at least one more game. Ultimate sacrifice is a dead end as far as both the Warden & Morri go - should that be "catered for" to appease those who took it, possibly to the detriment of other aspects of the game (I'm talking more cut content here.) Or should Bioware instead focus on their strength, telling a singular strong story and allowing some measure of player choice within the game space, but then taking the non-dead-end plot threads and moving the series forwards.

Its understandable people want their choices reflecting, but on a more practical side it is an impossibility to cater for every possible circumstance. As for the detractors that can't string a coherent sentence together without resulting to ranting and littering their posts with offensive comments regarding the character or their fans - well, I shouldn't have to tell you how little regard I, and hopefully the writers have for the opinions of such "fans."

@blademaster,

yes, it should do, Charsen is having some issues with the toolset atm tho.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 09 mai 2010 - 10:22 .

[Addai]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread and stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

I'm a complete Bioware newcomer but I hope they continue the story.  In fact, I'll be sorely disappointed if we don't- in some fashion- find out "the rest of the story."  Even if it's in novel rather than game form.

[Master Shiori]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread and stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

People seem to be under the impression that the Warden "must" be fighting darkspawn. Lets take BG1 - you were a student at Candlekeep and your main task was tracking down your fathers killer, then BG2 - you're kidnapped taken completely out of your comfort zone (new lands, new enemies, new allies) and tasked initially with freeing your childhood friend. Two separate stories strengthened by a link between the two games - your PC. The Warden is no more tied in to "being a Warden" than the Godchild was tied into his task at the end of BG1. Would BG2 have been as successful without its BG1 roots - I'm saying no. The end of DA1 was nowhere near epic enough to constitute the finale of the Warden's story.

If you've played Bioware's "better" titles, such as BG, you have a much greater frame of reference as how a story can pan out over a series of titles and I know for sure I want the Warden's story to continue for at least one more game. Ultimate sacrifice is a dead end as far as both the Warden & Morri go - should that be "catered for" to appease those who took it, possibly to the detriment of other aspects of the game (I'm talking more cut content here.) Or should Bioware instead focus on their strength, telling a singular strong story and allowing some measure of player choice within the game space, but then taking the non-dead-end plot threads and moving the series forwards.

As for the detractors that can't string a coherent sentence together without resulting to ranting and littering their posts with offensive comments - well, I shouldn't have to tell you how little regard I, and hopefully the writers have for the opinions of such "fans."

This is what I'm trying to get across to people in several topics about Morrigan or the god child. Bioware ultimately cares about what kind of story they'll tell. They did that in BG and used canon to tie 2 games together. I bet some people weren't happy then either but did that stop the series from becoming a great classic?

Morrigan coming back is a given, like Brock said.

If the epilogue in Awakening is anything to go by, then we have a good chance of seeing our Warden again. Bringing him and Morri together in the sequal is the best way to bank on the emotional investment that players have developed. The manner in which this is handled is up to Bioware to decide, but right now I can't see them doing it in a way that would acknowledge every single ending from Origins.
Ultimate sacrifice is a dead end and just by bringing the Warden back you'd stick the nail in that coffin. Dark ritual on the other hand offers a wealth of oportunities for the writers to explore.
I've never seen Bioware develope a major plot hook and then proceed to completely ignore it.

On the subject of the Warden himself/herself, nowhere is it written that Wardens do nothing but battle Darkspawn. In the codex we even have an example of Wardens ruling a country and the discussion you can have with Anders also shows that, once the darkspawn are defeated, a Warden can pretty much do whatever he/she wants.

I'm willing to bet that Gaider and co have already charted out a course for the DA franchise, and the fact that they made Morrigan unkillable and gave her such important part to play in Origins clearly shows that they have big plans for her. The fact that we get a clear message saying how our Warden's story isn't over speaks volumes.

[Terra_Ex]

Addai67 wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread and stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

I'm a complete Bioware newcomer but I hope they continue the story.  In fact, I'll be sorely disappointed if we don't- in some fashion- find out "the rest of the story."  Even if it's in novel rather than game form.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush or undermining the opinions of any newcomers - far from it. I just wanted to point out that even though Dragon Age is a lengthy title, the end of game doesn't necessarily have to mean that its the end of the Warden's story. BG2 had some fantastic and unforeseen twists, had the game ended at BG1 with Godchild "settling down" we would've missed out on all that. I suppose I'm just saying people should be prepared to give Bioware "some" leway as we transition across to DA2, I'm sure there could be some fantastic trials still in store for the PC. 

[webbedfeet]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I know some people think there isn't much left to do as the Warden, but I think it would be really cool to see the Wardens investigating how you survived- kind of like how in The Calling its implied how the Wardens are researching about how Fiona hasn't succumbed to the Taint. It would just be neat to examine more of the Warden culture outside of Ferelden, in lands like Orlais or the Anderfels where the Wardens are more numerous and you'd have a broad range of Warden types. Thats what I liked about The Calling, was that you got to see different types of Wardens-not everyone was the elder Warden type like Rhiordan or Dunacan instead you had  those that would go to questionable means to stop the Blight and those that were a bit more flexible/strict in their duty.

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread (and the advantages it can bring to a series) and instead stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

People also seem to be under the impression that the Warden "must" be fighting darkspawn. Lets take BG1 - you were a student at Candlekeep and your main task was tracking down your fathers killer, then BG2 - you're kidnapped taken completely out of your comfort zone (new lands, new enemies, new allies) and tasked initially with freeing your childhood friend. Two separate stories strengthened by a link between the two games - your PC. The Warden is no more tied in to "being a Warden" than the Godchild was tied into his task at the end of BG1. Would BG2 have been as successful without its BG1 roots - I'm saying no. The end of DA1 was nowhere near epic enough to constitute the finale of the Warden's story.

If you've played Bioware's "better" titles, such as BG, you have a much greater frame of reference as how a story can pan out over a series of titles and I know for sure I want the Warden's story to continue for at least one more game. Ultimate sacrifice is a dead end as far as both the Warden & Morri go - should that be "catered for" to appease those who took it, possibly to the detriment of other aspects of the game (I'm talking more cut content here.) Or should Bioware instead focus on their strength, telling a singular strong story and allowing some measure of player choice within the game space, but then taking the non-dead-end plot threads and moving the series forwards.

Its understandable people want their choices reflecting, but on a more practical side it is an impossibility to cater for every possible circumstance. As for the detractors that can't string a coherent sentence together without resulting to ranting and littering their posts with offensive comments regarding the character or their fans - well, I shouldn't have to tell you how little regard I, and hopefully the writers have for the opinions of such "fans."

@blademaster,

yes, it should do, Charsen is having some issues with the toolset atm tho.

Hear ye, hear ye.

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread (and the advantages it can bring to a series) and instead stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

IMO, when you lack the continuous plot threads from game to game, you end up with Neverwinter Nights- thats not to say that Bioware couldn't make good stand alone games in the DA universe, but its not something I want to see quite yet. Its just that if you take Origins as a standalone game and ignore the DR sequel possibilities, at least for me, it goes from very good to only pretty good. Its a game with an ok story but great characters. For the surviving Warden it needs some sense of closure- I'd rather have Bioware put a big "THE END" at the close of the game and suprise, bring the PC back down the road than hint at future adventures at the end of a game only to never follow through on it.

Terra_Ex wrote...

People also seem to be under the impression that the Warden "must" be fighting darkspawn. Lets take BG1 - you were a student at Candlekeep and your main task was tracking down your fathers killer, then BG2 - you're kidnapped taken completely out of your comfort zone (new lands, new enemies, new allies) and tasked initially with freeing your childhood friend. Two separate stories strengthened by a link between the two games - your PC. The Warden is no more tied in to "being a Warden" than the Godchild was tied into his task at the end of BG1. Would BG2 have been as successful without its BG1 roots - I'm saying no. The end of DA1 was nowhere near epic enough to constitute the finale of the Warden's story.

Thats the thing for me: from reading the dev posts in the past, it seems they want some measure of continuity between the games one way or another. Whether thats having the "child of hero" origin or sticking Morrigan or sombody from Origins as the villain of DA2, they want some continuity within the world of Thedas. Obviously keeping the Warden as the PC maintains continuity the most straightforward way and I think keeps those who played the 1st game interested in the 2nd from the get go. My big concern is that they ax  the Warden but still have the new PC dealing with the consequences from the Warden's actions without giving the Warden some proper closure. Unless they explain otherwise, I 'd want my PC to deal with the problems he created not someone else.

Terra_Ex wrote...

If you've played Bioware's "better" titles, such as BG, you have a much greater frame of reference as how a story can pan out over a series of titles and I know for sure I want the Warden's story to continue for at least one more game. Ultimate sacrifice is a dead end as far as both the Warden & Morri go - should that be "catered for" to appease those who took it, possibly to the detriment of other aspects of the game (I'm talking more cut content here.) Or should Bioware instead focus on their strength, telling a singular strong story and allowing some measure of player choice within the game space, but then taking the non-dead-end plot threads and moving the series forwards.

As far as the US goes, they can treat that as a dead end- like how its handled in ME2 if Shep dies. My big thing is that they just need some closure and finality for the Warden before going to a new hero- obviously you've got your closure if you did the US, but why throw in the DR if it never comes up again for the Warden to deal with? If the OGB and MOrrigan only become a problem/issue for some disconnected new hero, I really won't care. SUre MOrrigan would return but without that closure for my Warden who vowed to find her, having some other Epic Hero of Thedas deal with Morrigan and the OGB would kill my interest in how BIoware was handling the continuity. At least give my Warden the opportunity to deal with the consequences of his actions, thats all I ask.

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread and stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

I'm a complete Bioware newcomer but I hope they continue the story.  In fact, I'll be sorely disappointed if we don't- in some fashion- find out "the rest of the story."  Even if it's in novel rather than game form.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush or undermining the opinions of any newcomers - far from it. I just wanted to point out that even though Dragon Age is a lengthy title, the end of game doesn't necessarily have to mean that its the end of the Warden's story. BG2 had some fantastic and unforeseen twists, had the game ended at BG1 with Godchild "settling down" we would've missed out on all that. I suppose I'm just saying people should be prepared to give Bioware "some" leway as we transition across to DA2, I'm sure there could be some fantastic trials still in store for the PC. 

Its funny though, the danger with setting some sort of canon is that you run the risk of just pissing off everyone. If its in the interest of telling a better story, fine. Ultimately everyone is ok with canon until it craps all over a central choice you made from the 1st game.  Its just a bit of a worst case scenario, but imagine they set the DR as canon so Morrigan gets her OGB but then Morrigan isn't a companion and not romanceable- would that fly with all of us Morrigan romancers? I guess its all in the explanation...

I guess its just my pesimissm but I'm totally expecting to get Gaidered on DA2 somehow. We'll probably be all "hooray!" if we learn we're back as the Warden but then they'll twist it so that they kill off Morrigan in the 1st five minutes of the game or something. I just get the feeling Gaider enjoys the tears of us fanboys/girls and as far as Morrigan goes, they might be dead set on thrusting the whole tragedy route on us no matter what. Thats not necessarily bad, its all in the execution. And given how poorly the DR was handled for the romancing/friendly Warden, I have my concerns on how Bioware will present future choices like that.

Modifié par Brockololly, 09 mai 2010 - 11:14 .

[Terra_Ex]

Brockololly wrote...

Thats the thing for me: from reading the dev posts in the past, it seems they want some measure of continuity between the games one way or another. Whether thats having the "child of hero" origin or sticking Morrigan or sombody from Origins as the villain of DA2, they want some continuity within the world of Thedas. Obviously keeping the Warden as the PC maintains continuity the most straightforward way and I think keeps those who played the 1st game interested in the 2nd from the get go. My big concern is that they ax  the Warden but still have the new PC dealing with the consequences from the Warden's actions without giving the Warden some proper closure. Unless they explain otherwise, I 'd want my PC to deal with the problems he created not someone else.

The Suikoden series of JRPGs handles this
fairly well... or at least it did, In Suikoden 2, if you imported a save
the hero from the first game was an optional recruitable uber char,
albiet you had to jump through some hoops to get him. In Suikoden 3, the
primary villain is a semi-important mandatory character from Suikoden 1
& 2, their identity is only revealed
about half way through the game and reinforces your interest at that
point.
Then Suikoden 4 decided to ditch most of the things that made
the series great... didn't go down too well, 5 redeemed the series with a
decent plot and setting (well, good for a jrpg) and then a spin-off DS
title was set in an alternate universe and was... lacking in all areas.
Its an interesting example as to the importance of returning characters,
even if its usually restricted to cameos in the Suikoden series.

From
Dragon Age though, I expect more, I expect continuing plot threads and
obviously a good deal of depth in the characters.

Brockololly wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

If you've played Bioware's "better" titles, such as BG, you have a much greater frame of reference as how a story can pan out over a series of titles and I know for sure I want the Warden's story to continue for at least one more game. Ultimate sacrifice is a dead end as far as both the Warden & Morri go - should that be "catered for" to appease those who took it, possibly to the detriment of other aspects of the game (I'm talking more cut content here.) Or should Bioware instead focus on their strength, telling a singular strong story and allowing some measure of player choice within the game space, but then taking the non-dead-end plot threads and moving the series forwards.

As far as the US goes, they can treat that as a dead end- like how its handled in ME2 if Shep dies. My big thing is that they just need some closure and finality for the Warden before going to a new hero- obviously you've got your closure if you did the US, but why throw in the DR if it never comes up again for the Warden to deal with? If the OGB and Morrigan only become a problem/issue for some disconnected new hero, I really won't care. Sure Morrigan would return but without that closure for my Warden who vowed to find her, having some other Epic Hero of Thedas deal with Morrigan and the OGB would kill my interest in how BIoware was handling the continuity. At least give my Warden the opportunity to deal with the consequences of his actions, thats all I ask.

My point exactly, in a game rich with detail and character development its essential that appropritate closure is provided to this thread through the existing warden, anything less will fall short for the reasons you've stated above Brock.

[Swoo]

The big thing for me with the people who use the argument that we've 'had enough' with Wardens and Darkspawn is we are as much a Warden as Luke was a Jedi in the Only Trilogy That Matters. Sure we had the basic idea, and we did the job in a roundabout way, but we know nothing really of the Wardens, the Heirachy, the training, methods, everything. There's a TON of room for growth for the story of the Grey Wardens.

Immersing the Hero of Ferelden into a place likw the Anderfels with 'less accomplished' Wardens while also highlighting the backwards and sometimes downright ignorant marks of your/my trial by error initiation into the GW could be great fun.

Brockololly wrote...

I know some people think there isn't much left to do as the Warden, but I think it would be really cool to see the Wardens investigating how you survived- kind of like how in The Calling its implied how the Wardens are researching about how Fiona hasn't succumbed to the Taint. It would just be neat to examine more of the Warden culture outside of Ferelden, in lands like Orlais or the Anderfels where the Wardens are more numerous and you'd have a broad range of Warden types. Thats what I liked about The Calling, was that you got to see different types of Wardens-not everyone was the elder Warden type like Rhiordan or Dunacan instead you had  those that would go to questionable means to stop the Blight and those that were a bit more flexible/strict in their duty.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

The big thing for me with the people who use the argument that we've 'had enough' with Wardens and Darkspawn is we are as much a Warden as Luke was a Jedi in the Only Trilogy That Matters. Sure we had the basic idea, and we did the job in a roundabout way, but we know nothing really of the Wardens, the Heirachy, the training, methods, everything. There's a TON of room for growth for the story of the Grey Wardens.

Immersing the Hero of Ferelden into a place likw the Anderfels with 'less accomplished' Wardens while also highlighting the backwards and sometimes downright ignorant marks of your/my trial by error initiation into the GW could be great fun.

Thats exactly the kind of stuff I'd like to see. I mean sure they could have ended Star Wars with Luke being the Hero who destroyed the Death Star not unlike how the Warden defeated the Blight, but I feel like you're just scratching the surface with the Warden at the end of Origins.

Just seeing how other more experienced Wardens would react to the young Warden who defeated a Blight would be neat. Because really all you know about the Wardens is from Riordan and Duncan, who were with the Warden for what? About a month tops? Surely there are Warden-ly things you don't know about that can be explored. And how would other Wardens react to you if you did the Ritual or spared the Architect? Lots of potential there...

[Barbarossa2010]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak.

Barbarossa raises hand.

...and now where I would normally be out scouring the Gamestop shelves for the next bad ass shooter, I'm out searching for nothing but RPGs to play.  It's becoming sort of a sickness really.  

EDIT: Terrible grammar

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 10 mai 2010 - 01:53 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Brockololly wrote...

I guess its just my pesimissm but I'm totally expecting to get Gaidered on DA2 somehow. We'll probably be all "hooray!" if we learn we're back as the Warden but then they'll twist it so that they kill off Morrigan in the 1st five minutes of the game or something. I just get the feeling Gaider enjoys the tears of us fanboys/girls and as far as Morrigan goes, they might be dead set on thrusting the whole tragedy route on us no matter what. Thats not necessarily bad, its all in the execution. And given how poorly the DR was handled for the romancing/friendly Warden, I have my concerns on how Bioware will present future choices like that.

Agreed.  As the DR was presented, and as much tragedy and darkness the writers seem to be into (and, let's be frank, many players want), I expect nothing good to come from it.  Either the Warden story ends or the Warden's story continues and he is allowed to search for and find Morrigan, but she's either thoroughly corrupted or dies a tragic death; that's pretty much what I'm expecting.

You're not being pessimistic, you're merely paying attention in my view.

A few points to add to the mix:

*You know, Dark Fantasy can be immersion into evil and darkness and overcoming it or sucumbing to it.  It does not have to mean that the player's personal experience in that story has to suck.  I remember Gaider saying they were considering going "darker."  Okay, fine, maybe BW doesn't need a larger consumer base.  That's why I'm coming from the position that I am.  I just don't see how that is sustainable outside a core base of fanatical nerds that haven't seen the sun in months. 

*I don't want them to dumb down DA at all, in fact BW could make it harder and complex imo.  My thing is that I would really advise on a more rigorous analysis of the personal player tragedy elements interjected into the story.  I mean, I got the whole Shepard dies thing if you were ill-prepared for combat; robbing a player of his character no matter what he does at the end, I don't.  Some have said well that's just "reality."  Really?  Mages, dwarves, runes and health poulitces are reality, huh?  Naw, most people play games to challenge themselves and play the hero; not get a lesson in "reality."  Pretending otherwise is just deluding oneself or self-aggrandizement.

*Editing is absolutely critical.  As Terra_Ex said (and I paraphrase), finding out story elements that really mattered or would have made a difference in one's gaming experience in a comic book, is just a non-starter for me. 

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Agreed.  As the DR was presented, and as much tragedy and darkness the writers seem to be into (and, let's be frank, many players want), I expect nothing good to come from it.  Either the Warden story ends or the Warden's story continues and he is allowed to search for and find Morrigan, but she's either thoroughly corrupted or dies a tragic death; that's pretty much what I'm expecting.

You're not being pessimistic, you're merely paying attention in my view.

See thats the crux of the matter for me regarding Morrigan and the DR. From the very start when info on Morrigan started leaking out well before DA was released, she was pegged as  Viconia 2.0, your standard issue "evil" character that hates rainbows, steals candy from babies and kicks puppies. In broad terms, thats more or less  what you get if you look at her in Origins on a superficial level and never befriend or romance her. Oh but she has her boobs out too so she is hot  right? So at a glance, Morrigan is just the token evil hot chick. And for most people that played Origins, thats all they took away from Morrigan as a character.

So when you get to the DR, the player, seeing Morrigan as the "evil hot chick" is going to think she just wants to have hot sex  to make her own little demon baby, blah blah blah. And thats the thing- the game really tries to goad you into thinking that way about Morrigan. Practically none of the companions say anything nice about her and most of the banter revolving around her centers on how she is evil, a viper as Sten calls her, or just some scheming maleficar waiting to betray the Warden. Even the coronation scene dialogue with either Loghain or Alisatir posted a little while back makes it out that the Old God Baby was a bad thing, that it might be "worse than death." 

So going forward with the DR and the Warden, if you take Morrigan at face value, the Ritual should be a bad, terrible thing. Thats exactly why it SHOULDN'T be a terrible thing! Now the Old God Baby doesn't need to be the Messiah or anything, but instead of having it be some "demon baby" that brings about the End of Days, this is the absolute perfect opportunity to present it as a trademark "morally grey" choice. Maybe its good for some but bad for others; maybe siding with Morrigan means having to forsake old friends, there are lots of avenues they could take the OGB and Morrigan that aren't just your typical "Muahaha!" villain routes. Making the result of the DR just be some tragic or terrible result would just seem lazy to me, its what everybody expects, so what fun is there in that? Clearly Morrigan in Origins is more than just your "evil hot chick," its just that most people seemingly don't bother to make the effort to discover more about her than what you get when you first meet her in the Wilds.

Even if Bioware wants to stick with the whole tragedy angle with Morrigan, as an RPG at least give the player the opportunity to avoid such a tragic ending. Maybe its not easy to do, maybe you'll have to make big compromises in your character to avoid a tragic ending but keep a relatively "happy" ending at least possible.

But then again, Awakening does nothing to bolster my faith in how they may treat Morrigan as a returning character. Just thinking back to Oghren- he's about as simple a character as you can get in Origins as he is basically your comic relief. Yet you get to Awakening and he turns into Jar Jar Binks. I mean come on, we get it he is supposed to be the immature comic relief but really? A drunk/fart joke here and there is ok, but it gets old when its every time you click on the keg to speak with Oghren. So in light of Bioware basically just taking Oghren's function as comic relief in Origins and turning it up to 11 in Awakening, I really hope that Bioware doesn't just turn Morrigan's "evil" up to 11 in whatever comes next. I want to be optimistic about where they're taking the DA franchise but nothing thats come out since Origins has exactly instilled much faith in me.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

*You know, Dark Fantasy can be immersion into evil and darkness and overcoming it or sucumbing to it.  It does not have to mean that the player's personal experience in that story has to suck.  I remember Gaider saying they were considering going "darker."  Okay, fine, maybe BW doesn't need a larger consumer base.  That's why I'm coming from the position that I am.  I just don't see how that is sustainable outside a core base of fanatical nerds that haven't seen the sun in months. 

Exactly-I think the thing there again is having a choice in the matter. Its still a game after all, and while I might be ok with a movie or book ending tragically, those are passive mediums while in an RPG I'd at least like the opportunity to avoid the tragic dark ending or at least some adequate reasoning why it has to end in a tragic fashion. Thats not to say they can't make a good tragic ending if thats where they want to go, but if the way the DR was handled is any indication, the execution has to be flawless and you can't just plop down a cookie cutter scene like the DR.

[elemme]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I guess its just my pesimissm but I'm totally expecting to get Gaidered on DA2 somehow. We'll probably be all "hooray!" if we learn we're back as the Warden but then they'll twist it so that they kill off Morrigan in the 1st five minutes of the game or something. I just get the feeling Gaider enjoys the tears of us fanboys/girls and as far as Morrigan goes, they might be dead set on thrusting the whole tragedy route on us no matter what. Thats not necessarily bad, its all in the execution. And given how poorly the DR was handled for the romancing/friendly Warden, I have my concerns on how Bioware will present future choices like that.

Agreed.  As the DR was presented, and as much tragedy and darkness the writers seem to be into (and, let's be frank, many players want), I expect nothing good to come from it.  Either the Warden story ends or the Warden's story continues and he is allowed to search for and find Morrigan, but she's either thoroughly corrupted or dies a tragic death; that's pretty much what I'm expecting.

You're not being pessimistic, you're merely paying attention in my view.

A few points to add to the mix:

*You know, Dark Fantasy can be immersion into evil and darkness and overcoming it or sucumbing to it.  It does not have to mean that the player's personal experience in that story has to suck.  I remember Gaider saying they were considering going "darker."  Okay, fine, maybe BW doesn't need a larger consumer base.  That's why I'm coming from the position that I am.  I just don't see how that is sustainable outside a core base of fanatical nerds that haven't seen the sun in months. 

*I don't want them to dumb down DA at all, in fact BW could make it harder and complex imo.  My thing is that I would really advise on a more rigorous analysis of the personal player tragedy elements interjected into the story.  I mean, I got the whole Shepard dies thing if you were ill-prepared for combat; robbing a player of his character no matter what he does at the end, I don't.  Some have said well that's just "reality."  Really?  Mages, dwarves, runes and health poulitces are reality, huh?  Naw, most people play games to challenge themselves and play the hero; not get a lesson in "reality."  Pretending otherwise is just deluding oneself or self-aggrandizement.

*Editing is absolutely critical.  As Terra_Ex said (and I paraphrase), finding out story elements that really mattered or would have made a difference in one's gaming experience in a comic book, is just a non-starter for me. 

I agree completely about the Idea of a dark fantasy.  I do doubt how many people really want to play them though.  When I posted my dissatisfaction with the DR and the ending of the game most people just ripped me for making poor choices and told me to romance Lelianna.  Only a couple of people said they really liked doing the US to end the game.  I would really like to see the numbers on the number of people who did the US on their first playthrough.

I also think the game dropped the ball on the darker elements.  Blood mages and Apostates seem to only be punished by the Warden.  When my warden goes blood thirst and beserker no one screams in horror or runs off to find a templar.  You never "hear" anything through the taint, outside a couple of dreams.  Morrigan is never threaten by anyone in any shape or form for being an apostate.  I have read that this might be possible but I have yet to see it so it cant happen very easily.