16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Terra_Ex]

Brockololly wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread and stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

I'm a complete Bioware newcomer but I hope they continue the story.  In fact, I'll be sorely disappointed if we don't- in some fashion- find out "the rest of the story."  Even if it's in novel rather than game form.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush or undermining the opinions of any newcomers - far from it. I just wanted to point out that even though Dragon Age is a lengthy title, the end of game doesn't necessarily have to mean that its the end of the Warden's story. BG2 had some fantastic and unforeseen twists, had the game ended at BG1 with Godchild "settling down" we would've missed out on all that. I suppose I'm just saying people should be prepared to give Bioware "some" leway as we transition across to DA2, I'm sure there could be some fantastic trials still in store for the PC. 

Its funny though, the danger with setting some sort of canon is that you run the risk of just pissing off everyone. If its in the interest of telling a better story, fine. Ultimately everyone is ok with canon until it craps all over a central choice you made from the 1st game.  Its just a bit of a worst case scenario, but imagine they set the DR as canon so Morrigan gets her OGB but then Morrigan isn't a companion and not romanceable- would that fly with all of us Morrigan romancers? I guess its all in the explanation...

I guess its just my pesimissm but I'm totally expecting to get Gaidered on DA2 somehow. We'll probably be all "hooray!" if we learn we're back as the Warden but then they'll twist it so that they kill off Morrigan in the 1st five minutes of the game or something. I just get the feeling Gaider enjoys the tears of us fanboys/girls and as far as Morrigan goes, they might be dead set on thrusting the whole tragedy route on us no matter what. Thats not necessarily bad, its all in the execution. And given how poorly the DR was handled for the romancing/friendly Warden, I have my concerns on how Bioware will present future choices like that.

Certainly, Morri returning as non-party member or not acknowledging a romance would be disappointing. I can't imagine the ball being dropped there though, its the DR that's the bone of contention - how they handle that seems to the deciding factor for most of us.

As we've discussed here (and as many morri-haters will likely be unaware) us Morri fans have been subjected to some pretty horrible cuts, lack of romance closure (due to said cut), misrepresentaion of her personality through in-game bugs, the list goes on. In my mind, giving closure to Morri  fans should be something of a priority considering the backstab+1 we were dealt via the abridged DR.

I think the best sidestep around this was someone who suggested she obtains the soul through some fade wizardry. It's been discussed before but I think Morrigan's proposal toward a female warden romancing Alistair in particular probably offends some to the point they'd rather have her never appear again. So, the scene as is annoys potentially annoys both genders.

Considering what's been said in that other thread - we're never all going to agree, but the writer in me dictates that its a no-brainer when it comes to enforcing plot threads like this - you don't drop an element that potentially world-changing in favour of well... nothing. You can't downplay Morri's importance - she obtains the soul of an old god, which has resided within the archdemon - the ultimate goal of the game.

The alternative is what - DA2 rolls in and we partake in another tedious blight, Morrigan gone and no Old God consequences. If you don't take the ritual - the soul  is gone, the pc/Alistair/Loghain is dead and whatever would've happened with the soul will never be known (barring enforcing it through some canon means as suggested above) and the blights will continue unabated- I can't fathom why people would willingly rather lock themselves out of learning how this all pans out.

To be honest, I'm tired of debating with people about choices being "respected" regarding the DR, I'm sure its set in stone and well underway already - lets just hope the writers come up with something that can appease most people.
 That said, I'll probably post some more thoughts a bit later today...

Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

*You
know, Dark Fantasy can be immersion into evil and darkness and
overcoming it or sucumbing to it.  It does not have to mean that the
player's personal experience in that story has to suck.  I remember
Gaider saying they were considering going "darker."  Okay, fine, maybe
BW doesn't need a larger consumer base.  That's why I'm coming from the
position that I am.  I just don't see how that is sustainable outside a
core base of fanatical nerds that haven't seen the sun in months. 

Exactly-I think
the thing there again is having a choice in the matter. Its still a
game after all, and while I might be ok with a movie or book ending
tragically, those are passive mediums while in an RPG I'd at least like
the opportunity to avoid the tragic dark ending or at least some
adequate reasoning why it has to end in a tragic fashion. Thats not to
say they can't make a good tragic ending if thats where they want to go,
but if the way the DR was handled is any indication, the execution has
to be flawless and you can't just plop down a cookie cutter scene like
the DR.

Completely agree - the importance of this cannot be overstated. It comes back to player agency, if the player can't affect the ulltimate outcome and has that power taken away you're left with - the DR, which is as Barbarossa has described - you're reduced to essentially a passive role within the scene. If they enforce a "dark" morrigan ending irrespective of player choice it similarly negates all the progress that the player makes getting to know her during the game- everytime they pull something like that you just end up sighing and thinking, "why did I bother."

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 10 mai 2010 - 03:15 .

[webbedfeet]

Brockololly wrote...

So going forward with the DR and the Warden, if you take Morrigan at face value, the Ritual should be a bad, terrible thing. Thats exactly why it SHOULDN'T be a terrible thing! Now the Old God Baby doesn't need to be the Messiah or anything, but instead of having it be some "demon baby" that brings about the End of Days, this is the absolute perfect opportunity to present it as a trademark "morally grey" choice. Maybe its good for some but bad for others; maybe siding with Morrigan means having to forsake old friends, there are lots of avenues they could take the OGB and Morrigan that aren't just your typical "Muahaha!" villain routes. Making the result of the DR just be some tragic or terrible result would just seem lazy to me, its what everybody expects, so what fun is there in that? Clearly Morrigan in Origins is more than just your "evil hot chick," its just that most people seemingly don't bother to make the effort to discover more about her than what you get when you first meet her in the Wilds.

I've never thought of the DR as particularly evil. Sure, the game people says that it's evil, but this says nothing about the issue itself other than that, from a Chantry-respecting regular Fereldan perspective (even if you're not particularly religious----if you believe the Chantry's version of events, you're in), it probably is. But the Old God in Origins is Urthemiel, the Old God of Beauty....perhaps it is not the true god, we don't know that, we don't even know if there really is an all-encompassing god or if the Old God was really godlike...but is there supposed to be nothing good in that? Nothing to pity? Nothing worth saving? If most players can agree that magic is not a bad thing DESPITE being said to be so (practically, if not literally) by most people in DAverse, why not this?

Most of my PCs that do the DR don't feel particularly horrified by it. While they don't know which Old God they were saving exactly and are quite worried about the results, they never felt that pre-corruption Old God needed to be evil. They told Morrigan, earlier in the friendship/romance that some things are worth preserving. When she says, then, that THIS is worth preserving, they tend to give her a fair shot. Not that it never occurred to them that the results might blow up in their faces, they just intend to take the risk and take responsibility for it if that happens.

Which is why I would be quite put off with Bioware if they just give us a new PC to deal with the mess, and the original Warden dies of old age or something. If 'Origins' refers to the Origin of The Mess That Is The Dragon Age Era As A Whole, then my character, as one of those people who were there to see the start of the mess, would at least like to see part of it through.

elemme wrote...

I also think the game dropped the ball on
the darker elements.  Blood mages and Apostates seem to only be punished
by the Warden.  When my warden goes blood thirst and beserker no one
screams in horror or runs off to find a templar.  You never "hear"
anything through the taint, outside a couple of dreams.  Morrigan is
never threaten by anyone in any shape or form for being an apostate.  I
have read that this might be possible but I have yet to see it so it
cant happen very easily. 

This. What's the point if Mage Person can fire off deals with the demons and never risk possession (the Harrowing was a joke), especially for Spirit Healers, who's portrayed as a 'good' spec despite the increased risk of getting abominized, lorewise? The Reaver doesn't really get shunned. You can throw Blood Mage on Wynne and not get rebuked. I get that it's hard to program in, but it's definitely not impossible.

But then again, people do seem to complain about what dark elements are present, too, so you obviously can't win.

I wonder if a good way to handle the OGB/DR issue in the sequel would be having the Old God soul saved anyway, but at great personal cost to Morrigan and/or A Good Portion of Thedas if you don't do the DR. Or something along the lines. It would turn the 'correct' decision up on its head, at the least, although it may also serve to villainize Morri more. Well. It's not like she isn't treated as a villain in non-DR options, anyway.

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...


I think the best sidestep around this was someone who suggested she obtains the soul through some fade wizardry. It's been discussed before but I think Morrigan's proposal toward a female warden romancing Alistair in particular probably offends some to the point they'd rather have her never appear again. So, the scene as is annoys potentially annoys both genders.

Considering what's been said in that other thread - we're never all going to agree, but the writer in me dictates that its a no-brainer when it comes to enforcing plot threads like this - you don't drop an element that potentially world-changing in favour of well... nothing. You can't downplay Morri's importance - she obtains the soul of an old god, which has resided within the archdemon - the ultimate goal of the game.

Exactly. Even if Bioware chooses to take a direct continuity of things into account for DA2, so long as Morrigan plays a role in the game, I've got to believe that whatever role she plays in the future will be tied to the whole Old God thing, regardless of whether or not you did the DR. First off, if you turn Morrigan down with the DR, what do people think she is going to do when she storms off? Just brood in Flemeth's hut in the forest? I doubt that- she's going to find some other way to get the Old God soul, if thats what her mysterious ultimate plan calls for.

If nothing else, Morrigan is seemingly driven by this to such an extent that she reluctantly leaves the Warden she loves to get this OGB thing done. And in the DA universe, come on now. We're dealing with MAGIC- that like the ultimate carte blanche for a writer. Even the whole notion of the DR itself basically pops out of nowhere at the end of Origins, so its not impossible that Bioware couldn't just say Morrigan found another way of getting the Old God Soul through the Fade or something if thats where they want to take the story.

Terra_Ex wrote...

The alternative is what - DA2 rolls in and we partake in another tedious blight, Morrigan gone and no Old God consequences. If you don't take the ritual - the soul  is gone, the pc/Alistair/Loghain is dead and whatever would've happened with the soul will never be known (barring enforcing it through some canon means as suggested above) and the blights will continue unabated- I can't fathom why people would willingly rather lock themselves out of learning how this all pans out.

To be honest, I'm tired of debating with people about choices being "respected" regarding the DR, I'm sure its set in stone and well underway already - lets just hope the writers come up with something that can appease most people.
 That said, I'll probably post some more thoughts a bit later today...

Really there isn't much of an alternative story wise if you don't do the DR. You're either dead or what? Hoping you never see Morrigan again or hear about her plans again? Seeing as she is as much the face of DA as Shepard is the face of ME, we're going to see Morrigan again for better or worse. Thats part of the thing for me though- everyone assumes that doing the DR is some terrible thing, well what if turning Morrigan down results in some even worse thing?

The only real alternative to basing DA2 in some part off of the DR choice is to just start off with an entirely new hero, divorced from everything in Origins. Unfortunately if you do that, we've just got ourselves another Neverwinter Nights deal again and my interest in DA will go down the drain then.

But ultimately at this point its likely water under the bridge- If DA2 is the 2/1/2011 title and MOrrigan is going to show up in it, then no doubt the writers already know exactly what they are doing. I just really really hope we get some clue as to what their plans are come E3- you can only rant about the same thing so often before you get tired of it!

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 mai 2010 - 07:34 .

[Master Shiori]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, DA has brought a lot of newcomers into the fold so to speak. Those who didn't play the BG series, as such they don't seem to appreciate the importance of a continuous plot thread and stamp their feet at the prospect of having a canon endng "imposed" upon them, as though they themselves are some sort of genius when it comes to crafting a narrative.

I'm a complete Bioware newcomer but I hope they continue the story.  In fact, I'll be sorely disappointed if we don't- in some fashion- find out "the rest of the story."  Even if it's in novel rather than game form.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush or undermining the opinions of any newcomers - far from it. I just wanted to point out that even though Dragon Age is a lengthy title, the end of game doesn't necessarily have to mean that its the end of the Warden's story. BG2 had some fantastic and unforeseen twists, had the game ended at BG1 with Godchild "settling down" we would've missed out on all that. I suppose I'm just saying people should be prepared to give Bioware "some" leway as we transition across to DA2, I'm sure there could be some fantastic trials still in store for the PC. 

Its funny though, the danger with setting some sort of canon is that you run the risk of just pissing off everyone. If its in the interest of telling a better story, fine. Ultimately everyone is ok with canon until it craps all over a central choice you made from the 1st game.  Its just a bit of a worst case scenario, but imagine they set the DR as canon so Morrigan gets her OGB but then Morrigan isn't a companion and not romanceable- would that fly with all of us Morrigan romancers? I guess its all in the explanation...

I guess its just my pesimissm but I'm totally expecting to get Gaidered on DA2 somehow. We'll probably be all "hooray!" if we learn we're back as the Warden but then they'll twist it so that they kill off Morrigan in the 1st five minutes of the game or something. I just get the feeling Gaider enjoys the tears of us fanboys/girls and as far as Morrigan goes, they might be dead set on thrusting the whole tragedy route on us no matter what. Thats not necessarily bad, its all in the execution. And given how poorly the DR was handled for the romancing/friendly Warden, I have my concerns on how Bioware will present future choices like that.

Certainly, Morri returning as non-party member or not acknowledging a romance would be disappointing. I can't imagine the ball being dropped there though, its the DR that's the bone of contention - how they handle that seems to the deciding factor for most of us.

As we've discussed here (and as many morri-haters will likely be unaware) us Morri fans have been subjected to some pretty horrible cuts, lack of romance closure (due to said cut), misrepresentaion of her personality through in-game bugs, the list goes on. In my mind, giving closure to Morri  fans should be something of a priority considering the backstab+1 we were dealt via the abridged DR.

I think the best sidestep around this was someone who suggested she obtains the soul through some fade wizardry. It's been discussed before but I think Morrigan's proposal toward a female warden romancing Alistair in particular probably offends some to the point they'd rather have her never appear again. So, the scene as is annoys potentially annoys both genders.

Considering what's been said in that other thread - we're never all going to agree, but the writer in me dictates that its a no-brainer when it comes to enforcing plot threads like this - you don't drop an element that potentially world-changing in favour of well... nothing. You can't downplay Morri's importance - she obtains the soul of an old god, which has resided within the archdemon - the ultimate goal of the game.

The alternative is what - DA2 rolls in and we partake in another tedious blight, Morrigan gone and no Old God consequences. If you don't take the ritual - the soul  is gone, the pc/Alistair/Loghain is dead and whatever would've happened with the soul will never be known (barring enforcing it through some canon means as suggested above) and the blights will continue unabated- I can't fathom why people would willingly rather lock themselves out of learning how this all pans out.

To be honest, I'm tired of debating with people about choices being "respected" regarding the DR, I'm sure its set in stone and well underway already - lets just hope the writers come up with something that can appease most people.
 That said, I'll probably post some more thoughts a bit later today...

Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

*You
know, Dark Fantasy can be immersion into evil and darkness and
overcoming it or sucumbing to it.  It does not have to mean that the
player's personal experience in that story has to suck.  I remember
Gaider saying they were considering going "darker."  Okay, fine, maybe
BW doesn't need a larger consumer base.  That's why I'm coming from the
position that I am.  I just don't see how that is sustainable outside a
core base of fanatical nerds that haven't seen the sun in months. 

Exactly-I think
the thing there again is having a choice in the matter. Its still a
game after all, and while I might be ok with a movie or book ending
tragically, those are passive mediums while in an RPG I'd at least like
the opportunity to avoid the tragic dark ending or at least some
adequate reasoning why it has to end in a tragic fashion. Thats not to
say they can't make a good tragic ending if thats where they want to go,
but if the way the DR was handled is any indication, the execution has
to be flawless and you can't just plop down a cookie cutter scene like
the DR.

Completely agree - the importance of this cannot be overstated. It comes back to player agency, if the player can't affect the ulltimate outcome and has that power taken away you're left with - the DR, which is as Barbarossa has described - you're reduced to essentially a passive role within the scene. If they enforce a "dark" morrigan ending irrespective of player choice it similarly negates all the progress that the player makes getting to know her during the game- everytime they pull something like that you just end up sighing and thinking, "why did I bother."

The problem with everyone wanting their ending and choices to be acknowledged in the sequal comes down to the fact that people feel Bioware must continue their story, rather then just tell the best possible story.
Bioware may have given us a lot of choices when it comes to DR and the ending, but they never said they'll honor every single one of those choices like they did with ME.
Brock suggested they could make each ending from DA:O into a potential origin for DA2 and choosing those origins would reflect our choices and romances from the first game.
Ultimately, I think the DR and god child simply have too much potential for the writers to ignore, and will most likely be implemented into DA2 in some way. The fact that Bioware said on multiple occasions how Morrigan will be back and even went so far as to say in Awakening epilogue that our Warden's story isn't done yet makes me believe they do plan to reunite them in some way.

On the subject of dark fantasy and happy endings:

I always understood dark fantasy as storyline where your characters can have happy endings but these must always come at a price.
I would be perfectly happy with some kind of happy ending for Morrigan and the Warden in DA2, provided such an ending is the result of hard choices and sacrifices on their part and not set in stone. It would be great to have your actions and decisions in DA2 influence Morrigan in a way that she would ultimately choose happiness with the Warden over power. A situation similar to the dark ritual except this time it's your companion who needs to make a hard choice and accept the consequences.

[tom2504]

99% Of people simply want to be able to continue their Warden from DAO into DAO2.

Some peoples arguments for Bioware disregarding the storyline from DAO with the Awakening expansion are ridiculous. Awakening was probably released to make sure we don't lose interest, just as the Darkspawn expansion will be. I'm betting they prioritize DAO2 over any of the expansion games as they're merely released to give us something to do while waiting for DAO2.

Either way - I'm pretty sure Bioware know that not allowing us to continue our previous Warden's in the next game will result in a lot of dissapointed customers.

And since we're told that we haven't seen the last of Morrigan..

1+1=2?

Or is that wishful thinking perhaps?

[Brockololly]

tom2504 wrote...

99% Of people simply want to be able to continue their Warden from DAO into DAO2.

Some peoples arguments for Bioware disregarding the storyline from DAO with the Awakening expansion are ridiculous. Awakening was probably released to make sure we don't lose interest, just as the Darkspawn expansion will be. I'm betting they prioritize DAO2 over any of the expansion games as they're merely released to give us something to do while waiting for DAO2.

Either way - I'm pretty sure Bioware know that not allowing us to continue our previous Warden's in the next game will result in a lot of dissapointed customers.

And since we're told that we haven't seen the last of Morrigan..

1+1=2?

Or is that wishful thinking perhaps?

Well thats what most are hoping for anyway. I think much of the anxiety over DA2 continuing with your Warden stems from the fact that Bioware hasn't outlined how DA games are going to play out like with ME being a trilogy focusing on Shepard. All we know is what the devs have stated in the past that they want DA to be a franchise and that its a big wolrd where they can do different things chronologically, ... 

But yeah, it seems like most people that want to start new in DA2 are sick of the Warden/Darkspawn thing or just want to have a new set of Origins. If BIoware goes that route and sets it in Orlais with a whole new set of Origins and yet you still deal with Morrigan and the OGB- not sound overly dramatic, but that game would be dead to me. My whole desire to play as the Warden again lies in the notion that so long as he is alive, I want him to try and deal with the consequences of his actions, not some other Hero. Sure you as the player would be still dealing with the events of Origins, but from a roleplaying perspective it wouldn't fly for me.

[David Gaider]

I'm certain that no matter what we decide to do, as soon as we announce it there will be an initial reaction in some quarters of people being upset at what isn't there rather than what is. The imaginary game they've built up in their head is now gone, and we're to blame-- and they won't see the next game for what it actually is until it's in their hands.

That's pretty normal. Fans have their expectations, some reasonable and some far less so, but our goal is to provide an excellent game-- we've promised nothing more. If someone really wants to declare that they couldn't possibly enjoy another Dragon Age title unless it continues the story from DAO, complete with their character and romance(s) and every possible permutation of Origins accounted for, and couldn't stand on it's own... well okay, I think that's a bit myopic, but you've got no reason to think of anything beyond what you've currently got right in front of you so it's completely forgiveable.

At the end of the day, you'll see what we've got in store for you in the future and decide if it's for you. I can't imagine that it'll make everyone happy, but then it never does.

Modifié par David Gaider, 10 mai 2010 - 05:49 .

[shedevil3001]

gaider will there be bug fixes for the games ?

[bl00dsh0t]

Wow only 5 minutes after his post and someone is asking the lead writer if there will be bugfixes xD If there will or will not be we will know soon enough, he won't tell us what they are doing if he knows or not, nor will stalkin bioware employees make the patch ready or even announced any faster:D

This is a topic about morrigan and how she ties into the story and how her story does continue, if at all. Keep it at least a bit on topic ;D

Anyways mr. gaider goes ahead and moves in with the "we know what you want, but you might not get it speech" ^^ unexpected. Whatever comes ill make my own conclusions as to whether ill grab it or not, a good game without the warden is still a good game after all, but a dragon age without him/her is a thought that is not that pleasant to a lot of us more addicted fans

And also if the title in 2011 is the follow up to origins or not is not something we know as of yet, at least it would be nice to know if we get to know more at E3?

[tom2504]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm certain that no matter what we decide to do, as soon as we announce it there will be an initial reaction in some quarters of people being upset at what isn't there rather than what is. The imaginary game they've built up in their head is now gone, and we're to blame-- and they won't see the next game for what it actually is until it's in their hands.

That's pretty normal. Fans have their expectations, some reasonable and some far less so, but our goal is to provide an excellent game-- we've promised nothing more. If someone really wants to declare that they couldn't possibly enjoy another Dragon Age title unless it continues the story from DAO, complete with their character and romance(s) and every possible permutation of Origins accounted for, and couldn't stand on it's own... well okay, I think that's a bit myopic, but you've got no reason to think of anything beyond what you've currently got right in front of you so it's completely forgiveable.

At the end of the day, you'll see what we've got in store for you in the future and decide if it's for you. I can't imagine that it'll make everyone happy, but then it never does.

Most people are paranoid (including myself), mainly because so many questions were left unanswered in DAO, especially regarding Morrigan (as this is a Morrigan thread) and they don't know whether or not they'll ever find out the answers (Like if you'll ever see Morrigan again, will it be on another character or your original, if the previous, will she have forgotten about your original Warden?). But because of the way the game ended - like you said - it should understandable for people to build up the sequel in their head and keep remaining characters, plots and what-not in it. I don't believe It's myopic at all, considering DAO's ending.

Modifié par tom2504, 10 mai 2010 - 06:54 .

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm certain that no matter what we decide to do, as soon as we announce it there will be an initial reaction in some quarters of people being upset at what isn't there rather than what is. The imaginary game they've built up in their head is now gone, and we're to blame-- and they won't see the next game for what it actually is until it's in their hands.

That's pretty normal. Fans have their expectations, some reasonable and some far less so, but our goal is to provide an excellent game-- we've promised nothing more. If someone really wants to declare that they couldn't possibly enjoy another Dragon Age title unless it continues the story from DAO, complete with their character and romance(s) and every possible permutation of Origins accounted for, and couldn't stand on it's own... well okay, I think that's a bit myopic, but you've got no reason to think of anything beyond what you've currently got right in front of you so it's completely forgiveable.

At the end of the day, you'll see what we've got in store for you in the future and decide if it's for you. I can't imagine that it'll make everyone happy, but then it never does.

Fair enough.

No doubt whenever DA2 or whatever is coming next you'll have the inevitable cries of blasphemy and how its ruining everything, heck, I might be the one whining for all I know. Its just that given how Origins ended, especially if you romanced Morrigan, I have a  certain set of expectations that would make for my own "ideal" version of DA2 (namely bring back the Warden and have the ability to continue the Morrigan romance).

Now whether or not that jives with what you guys at Bioware have brewing is a whole other matter indeed. For us fans, we simply don't know and at least right now its easy to dream up nightmare, worst case scenarios of how DA2 will be nothing like we hope it will be. The reality is likely some middle ground of course and like you said, if whatever you guys do makes for a better story/game thats all we can hope for. Even if DA2 is "standalone" in a Neverwinter Nights sense, I won't completely ignore it, but like I've said, my own interest would likely be greatly diminished.

That said, you really should bring the Warden back and let him deal with the whole Morrigan romance/Old God Baby thing. Just a suggestion

[Brockololly]

shedevil3001 wrote...

gaider will there be bug fixes for the games ?

*Facepalm*

[David Gaider]

tom2504 wrote...
But because of the way the game ended - like you said - it should understandable for people to build up the sequel in their head and keep remaining characters, plots and what-not in it. I don't believe It's myopic at all, considering DAO's ending.

Well, all I'm saying is that there are many possibilities. Continuing the storyline with the same characters and same continuity has its advantages, certainly, but also its drawbacks -- many of which people have already outlined. Selecting a canon timeline or simply starting with something completely different also has its advantages and drawbacks. It can seem a little bit like "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but ultimately I'd like to think there are a lot of ways we could go, and each of them has things which make that choice attractive to me as a writer.

Naturally leaving plot threads dangling is not the best way to go, in my opinion, but it should also be realized that the point of a new story should not and could not be solely to resolve dangling plot threads. As enticing as those may be, they're a tool we have available to use in the future in order to make a better story -- the commitment I'm seeing to them is certainly complementary (it's nice to see that fans care that much) but whenever we're discussing any element of Origin's story you need to realize that it's only part of the story... and that for many fans it may not even be a big part of it.

In the end, we recognize that it's there and people will want to see more. I can't really say more than that. I don't advocate writer-borne cruelty to fans-- not unless the tears that result are really sweet. Then I might be tempted.

[Swoo]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm certain that no matter what we decide to do, as soon as we announce it there will be an initial reaction in some quarters of people being upset at what isn't there rather than what is. The imaginary game they've built up in their head is now gone, and we're to blame-- and they won't see the next game for what it actually is until it's in their hands.

That's pretty normal. Fans have their expectations, some reasonable and some far less so, but our goal is to provide an excellent game-- we've promised nothing more. If someone really wants to declare that they couldn't possibly enjoy another Dragon Age title unless it continues the story from DAO, complete with their character and romance(s) and every possible permutation of Origins accounted for, and couldn't stand on it's own... well okay, I think that's a bit myopic, but you've got no reason to think of anything beyond what you've currently got right in front of you so it's completely forgiveable.

At the end of the day, you'll see what we've got in store for you in the future and decide if it's for you. I can't imagine that it'll make everyone happy, but then it never does.

Then again, pleasing everyone is usually a sign of doing something so down the middle and safe it's forgotten after Summer.
I also think you could go ahead and give us a few scraps so we can get the riot out of the way

Back to Morrigan, I've tossed around the Fade ideas for a little bit. All we know is she needed the ritual with you to save you, nothing was ever said that it was the only way for her to get what she wanted iirc. The OGS is still going to merge and probably purify before exploding in a brilliant shaft of light if you turn her down, nothing to say she isn't able to redirect it then and get what she wants. Also, you can bargain with Demons and the like in the Fade, why not offer the Old God a scrap of mortality for doing what you want? Just ideas, but in my opinion there is ton of room to continue on with Old Wardens/Old Saves that use the DR as a strong backbone without really screwing with the non-Morrigan fans story. Contrary to what some may believe, I want all our stories to be awesome, not just my own specific ones.

I've been thinking about having a new DA playthrough (and modding it out, mostly cosmetic like the DA-Redesigned) and taking all the 'right' choices for Morrigan just to see how her ideas of what you should have done mesh with the choices I actually made in my 'Canon' save. What do you guys and girls think, would you have been stronger or weaker for it? Plus, I've never played all the way through as a Rogue. Yay, no Maker-freak soaking a party spot!

[Shade of Wolf]

Brockololly wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...


I think the best sidestep around this was someone who suggested she obtains the soul through some fade wizardry. It's been discussed before but I think Morrigan's proposal toward a female warden romancing Alistair in particular probably offends some to the point they'd rather have her never appear again. So, the scene as is annoys potentially annoys both genders.

Considering what's been said in that other thread - we're never all going to agree, but the writer in me dictates that its a no-brainer when it comes to enforcing plot threads like this - you don't drop an element that potentially world-changing in favour of well... nothing. You can't downplay Morri's importance - she obtains the soul of an old god, which has resided within the archdemon - the ultimate goal of the game.

Exactly. Even if Bioware chooses to take a direct continuity of things into account for DA2, so long as Morrigan plays a role in the game, I've got to believe that whatever role she plays in the future will be tied to the whole Old God thing, regardless of whether or not you did the DR. First off, if you turn Morrigan down with the DR, what do people think she is going to do when she storms off? Just brood in Flemeth's hut in the forest? I doubt that- she's going to find some other way to get the Old God soul, if thats what her mysterious ultimate plan calls for.

If nothing else, Morrigan is seemingly driven by this to such an extent that she reluctantly leaves the Warden she loves to get this OGB thing done. And in the DA universe, come on now. We're dealing with MAGIC- that like the ultimate carte blanche for a writer. Even the whole notion of the DR itself basically pops out of nowhere at the end of Origins, so its not impossible that Bioware couldn't just say Morrigan found another way of getting the Old God Soul through the Fade or something if thats where they want to take the story.

Terra_Ex wrote...

The alternative is what - DA2 rolls in and we partake in another tedious blight, Morrigan gone and no Old God consequences. If you don't take the ritual - the soul  is gone, the pc/Alistair/Loghain is dead and whatever would've happened with the soul will never be known (barring enforcing it through some canon means as suggested above) and the blights will continue unabated- I can't fathom why people would willingly rather lock themselves out of learning how this all pans out.

To be honest, I'm tired of debating with people about choices being "respected" regarding the DR, I'm sure its set in stone and well underway already - lets just hope the writers come up with something that can appease most people.
 That said, I'll probably post some more thoughts a bit later today...

Really there isn't much of an alternative story wise if you don't do the DR. You're either dead or what? Hoping you never see Morrigan again or hear about her plans again? Seeing as she is as much the face of DA as Shepard is the face of ME, we're going to see Morrigan again for better or worse. Thats part of the thing for me though- everyone assumes that doing the DR is some terrible thing, well what if turning Morrigan down results in some even worse thing?

The only real alternative to basing DA2 in some part off of the DR choice is to just start off with an entirely new hero, divorced from everything in Origins. Unfortunately if you do that, we've just got ourselves another Neverwinter Nights deal again and my interest in DA will go down the drain then.

But ultimately at this point its likely water under the bridge- If DA2 is the 2/1/2011 title and MOrrigan is going to show up in it, then no doubt the writers already know exactly what they are doing. I just really really hope we get some clue as to what their plans are come E3- you can only rant about the same thing so often before you get tired of it!

Gosh BW probably wish they had put Alistair or someone on the cover lol, or the Archedemon...even more problems regarding plot lolz.

[tom2504]

David Gaider wrote...

tom2504 wrote...
But because of the way the game ended - like you said - it should understandable for people to build up the sequel in their head and keep remaining characters, plots and what-not in it. I don't believe It's myopic at all, considering DAO's ending.

Well, all I'm saying is that there are many possibilities. Continuing the storyline with the same characters and same continuity has its advantages, certainly, but also its drawbacks -- many of which people have already outlined. Selecting a canon timeline or simply starting with something completely different also has its advantages and drawbacks. It can seem a little bit like "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but ultimately I'd like to think there are a lot of ways we could go, and each of them has things which make that choice attractive to me as a writer.

Naturally leaving plot threads dangling is not the best way to go, in my opinion, but it should also be realized that the point of a new story should not and could not be solely to resolve dangling plot threads. As enticing as those may be, they're a tool we have available to use in the future in order to make a better story -- the commitment I'm seeing to them is certainly complementary (it's nice to see that fans care that much) but whenever we're discussing any element of Origin's story you need to realize that it's only part of the story... and that for many fans it may not even be a big part of it.

In the end, we recognize that it's there and people will want to see more. I can't really say more than that. I don't advocate writer-borne cruelty to fans-- not unless the tears that result are really sweet. Then I might be tempted.

I can't help but get the feeling you're indirectly trying to imply that DAO2 will in fact have no relevance to Morrigan or our previous Warden (but I actually look into it too much, like I said - I'm paranoid because of the great game DAO was and the great ending it had). However - you're the bioware guy, I won't argue, It's a great game and if DAO2 is as successful as DAO - character and storyline wise - I won't be complaining, only a teensy weensy bit disappointed if Morrigan isn't there.

Brockololly wrote...


That said, you really should bring the Warden back and let him deal with
the whole Morrigan romance/Old God Baby thing. Just a suggestion ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

I concur with the power of 10,000 Greek gods.

[Axekix]

David Gaider wrote...

tom2504 wrote...
But because of the way the game ended - like you said - it should understandable for people to build up the sequel in their head and keep remaining characters, plots and what-not in it. I don't believe It's myopic at all, considering DAO's ending.

Well, all I'm saying is that there are many possibilities. Continuing the storyline with the same characters and same continuity has its advantages, certainly, but also its drawbacks -- many of which people have already outlined. Selecting a canon timeline or simply starting with something completely different also has its advantages and drawbacks. It can seem a little bit like "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but ultimately I'd like to think there are a lot of ways we could go, and each of them has things which make that choice attractive to me as a writer.

Naturally leaving plot threads dangling is not the best way to go, in my opinion, but it should also be realized that the point of a new story should not and could not be solely to resolve dangling plot threads. As enticing as those may be, they're a tool we have available to use in the future in order to make a better story -- the commitment I'm seeing to them is certainly complementary (it's nice to see that fans care that much) but whenever we're discussing any element of Origin's story you need to realize that it's only part of the story... and that for many fans it may not even be a big part of it.

In the end, we recognize that it's there and people will want to see more. I can't really say more than that. I don't advocate writer-borne cruelty to fans-- not unless the tears that result are really sweet. Then I might be tempted.

Uh oh.  I get the feeling this post doesn't bode well for the Morrigan fandom.

(Persuade) I bet writing for Morrigan is really  fun!  Surely you wouldn't want to go through an entire DA2 script without her.  You should treat yourself!

[bl00dsh0t]

Ahh rogues are fun since they are quite micro intensive with the positioning etc. Most of my runs were as a rogue, after that switching to leliana for every damn chest that needed opening was immensely unnerving xD

Still I dont know about the redisigned mod. Thats a very pretty morrigan...but its just not morrigan. By all means the maker of the mod is immensily talented and some are really great improvements over the original designs but I have just gotten so attached to the way that the characters looked at first that its hard for me to accept their new and improved looks xD

And concerning the way that they might sneak in OGB without DR happening... sure it could happen, magic is magic after all, but still I think that those that made the choice to deny morrigan the soul of an old god would not be happy if their sacrifice or that of allistair/loghain was in the end for nothing. Some oddly enough view death as the only choice concerning the ritual, but hey to each their own story i suppose ^^

Well anyways if there is anything to be concluded from the gaidering of the thread (much appreciated btw ) is that whatever they are cooking up for us will have some continuity from origins but not something we have managed to "predict" in our chain of discussions concerning mowwigan...hmm indeed...HMMMM.....well now I am weeping very very sweet tears of pure fanboy sorrow. Well gaidered sir, well gaidered ^^

Axekix wrote...
Uh oh.  I get the feeling this post doesn't bode well for the Morrigan fandom.

(Persuade) I bet writing for Morrigan is really  fun!  Surely you wouldn't want to go through an entire DA2 script without her.  You should treat yourself!

Hehe equipp as many +cunning items as possible, his persuasion checks are astronomical

Ugh..did i just make a bad DAO mechanics joke...sigh I need to find another game xD

[Terra_Ex]

David Gaider wrote...

tom2504 wrote...
But because of the way the game ended - like you said - it should understandable for people to build up the sequel in their head and keep remaining characters, plots and what-not in it. I don't believe It's myopic at all, considering DAO's ending.

Well, all I'm saying is that there are many possibilities. Continuing the storyline with the same characters and same continuity has its advantages, certainly, but also its drawbacks -- many of which people have already outlined. Selecting a canon timeline or simply starting with something completely different also has its advantages and drawbacks. It can seem a little bit like "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but ultimately I'd like to think there are a lot of ways we could go, and each of them has things which make that choice attractive to me as a writer.

Naturally leaving plot threads dangling is not the best way to go, in my opinion, but it should also be realized that the point of a new story should not and could not be solely to resolve dangling plot threads. As enticing as those may be, they're a tool we have available to use in the future in order to make a better story -- the commitment I'm seeing to them is certainly complementary (it's nice to see that fans care that much) but whenever we're discussing any element of Origin's story you need to realize that it's only part of the story... and that for many fans it may not even be a big part of it.

In the end, we recognize that it's there and people will want to see more. I can't really say more than that. I don't advocate writer-borne cruelty to fans-- not unless the tears that result are really sweet. Then I might be tempted.

I'm sure Morrigan would approve of you going on record and stating that both she and our existing Warden will be in DA2. Your secret is safe with us

On a more serious note, my opinion is similar to Brock's - I don't expect Morrigan to be the sole focus or anything, but some kind of resolution to that thread would be nice. So long as we don't go down the Neverwinter Nights route I'm sure I can live with whatever you have planned.

[blademaster7]

tom2504 wrote...

I can't help but get the feeling you're  indirectly trying to imply that DAO2 will in fact have no relevance to  Morrigan or our previous Warden (but I actually look into it too much,  like I said - I'm paranoid because of the great game DAO was and the great ending it had). However - you're the bioware guy, I won't argue, It's a great game and if DAO2 is as successful as DAO - character and storyline wise - I won't be complaining, only a teensy weensy bit
disappointed if Morrigan isn't there.

I'm with you here. Maybe that makes me just as paranoid. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]



If the Warden's return was sooo obvious like many claim, then Gaider would probaly read the posts, laugh and ignore the  thread. The fact that he came here to say that they can't please everyone becasue and didn't promise continuation leads me to believe  that he is indeed implying what you said.

Or maybe he's just messing with us.

shedevil3001 wrote...

gaider will there be bug fixes for the games ?

I don't know if this was supposed to be sarcastic or not but it made me laugh out loud.

The original purpose of this thread was to point out a bug to the devs.

Modifié par blademaster7, 10 mai 2010 - 09:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thank you Mr.Gaider for your post.

Yes it's pretty clear that not everyone can be pleased. And it's a possibility that the Morrigan romance will be forgotten. But I personally believe that would be a waste and it's not because my love for Morrigan exceeds fangril Alsitair love. But rather because I impartially believe that the Morrigan plot offers the best potential story for a sequel and that it could tie in with the concept of Awakening, the origins of the Blight and the nature of the Old Gods. It's just too perfect a plot to abandon. I realise the problem with this, that it effectively canonize the DR ending. But let's face it, the DR ending has the most potential.

Now whether it's the Warden himself that gets to the bottom of this and brings closure to the romance or if it's a new character, is another thing. I personally believe that a new character will lack the emotional connection to the issue that could make it great. So while I wouldn't be frustrated that the Warden's story is not continued (despite the fact Awakening kind of promised that it will), but I would be dissapointed yes. But at the end, someone is gong to have to be dissapointed, so hopefully the sequel will be great as to alleviate or make us forget any dissapointment.

[Master Shiori]

Terra_Ex wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

tom2504 wrote...
But because of the way the game ended - like you said - it should understandable for people to build up the sequel in their head and keep remaining characters, plots and what-not in it. I don't believe It's myopic at all, considering DAO's ending.

Well, all I'm saying is that there are many possibilities. Continuing the storyline with the same characters and same continuity has its advantages, certainly, but also its drawbacks -- many of which people have already outlined. Selecting a canon timeline or simply starting with something completely different also has its advantages and drawbacks. It can seem a little bit like "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but ultimately I'd like to think there are a lot of ways we could go, and each of them has things which make that choice attractive to me as a writer.

Naturally leaving plot threads dangling is not the best way to go, in my opinion, but it should also be realized that the point of a new story should not and could not be solely to resolve dangling plot threads. As enticing as those may be, they're a tool we have available to use in the future in order to make a better story -- the commitment I'm seeing to them is certainly complementary (it's nice to see that fans care that much) but whenever we're discussing any element of Origin's story you need to realize that it's only part of the story... and that for many fans it may not even be a big part of it.

In the end, we recognize that it's there and people will want to see more. I can't really say more than that. I don't advocate writer-borne cruelty to fans-- not unless the tears that result are really sweet. Then I might be tempted.

I'm sure Morrigan would approve of you going on record and stating that both she and our existing Warden will be in DA2. Your secret is safe with us

On a more serious note, my opinion is similar to Brock's - I don't expect Morrigan to be the sole focus or anything, but some kind of resolution to that thread would be nice. So long as we don't go down the Neverwinter Nights route I'm sure I can live with whatever you have planned.

Nicely said.

I don't think anyone here is asking for Morrigan to be a the focus of DA2, but as players we have invested a great deal of time and emotions into her romance and would like to see some kind of closure.
Every other romance in the game provided this while ours ended with a cliffhanger and "maybe you'll see me again, or maybe you won't" sign.

I have full faith in Bioware when it comes to making great rpgs and I don't doubt that DA2 will be great, but I also cannot accept unresolved story threads.

However, I'll reserve my judgement until I see what is planned for DA2 and will fervently pray my worst fears aren't realized.

[Brockololly]

tom2504 wrote...

I can't help but get the feeling you're indirectly trying to imply that DAO2 will in fact have no relevance to Morrigan or our previous Warden (but I actually look into it too much, like I said - I'm paranoid because of the great game DAO was and the great ending it had). However - you're the bioware guy, I won't argue, It's a great game and if DAO2 is as successful as DAO - character and storyline wise - I won't be complaining, only a teensy weensy bit disappointed if Morrigan isn't there.

Call it paranoid or whatever but yeah I'd agree. Its just that sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop, hoping for the best but expecting the worst. I won't try to read too much between the lines in any of the dev posts since they have to maintain the PR speak given that nothing has been announced yet for DA2, but all I can hope is that we get some concrete news sooner rather than later.

Axekix wrote...

Uh oh.  I get the feeling this post doesn't bode well for the Morrigan
fandom. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png

Guh... I get the same feeling as well. Ah well, most likely Bioware is well under way with whatever DA is coming next, all we can do is wait. C'est la vie....

Ultimately I'm perfectly ok with them going with a new PC in the future- its just that to do it in the very next DA game after Origins would kind of take the wind out of the sails for me. I'd just like to see some closure or sense of finality with the Warden/Morrigan before going off to something different, thats all.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 mai 2010 - 09:48 .

[tom2504]

Absolutely agree with the above posters, an entire story isn't necessary to satisfy our shameless Morrigan-fan needs but perhaps a semi-long side-quest to give us closure (as someone stated)!

[Axekix]

Brockololly wrote...

Guh... I get the same feeling as well. Ah well, most likely Bioware is well under way with whatever DA is coming next, all we can do is wait. C'est la vie....

Ultimately I'm perfectly ok with them going with a new PC in the future- its just that to do it in the very next DA game after Origins would kind of take the wind out of the sails for me. I'd just like to see some closure or sense of finality with the Warden/Morrigan before going off to something different, thats all.

Yeah, that's how I feel as well.  I don't mind taking the story in new directions, and I can see several advantages of starting DA2 with a clean slate, but I'd feel a bit dejected if the Morrigan storyline winds up being a dead end.  Considering how much potential there is in it, I had always assumed it would naturally be a big part of the DA story to come.

Oh well, all we can do is hope.