16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Ash Wind]

[/quote]

Indeed. Not to mention he claimed that his opinion of those being unable or unwilling to accept a completely brand new storyline was myopic (which to us normal people means shortsighted, in other words;  we're too focused on one storyline continuing and unable to see potential for brand new future ones). But I disagree strongly as has been said many times by many people. If the DR/Morrigan/Baby-god story has no relevance to future DAO's then It's similar to having Lord of the Rings Fellowship without a sequel, a chocolate cake without the chocolate (you get it). It ended in such a way that discontinuing the original storyline  would be straight out mean, especially as there are a STRONG majority of people who are passionate about the Morrigan story (daring use of wording there), more so than those who aren't.

Give the people what they want!
[/quote]

The myopic line was hilarious, given the fact 'They' opened the door on the Morrigan/Baby Old God storyline, and now were just supposed to forget it. Sorry BW and Gaider, it doesn't work that way. Star Wars ended with Darth Vader still alive, when plans for a sequel were announced, fans had every right to believe it would continue the story of the first movie.

At their most basic forms, stories have a Beginning, a Middle and an End. I don't think its myopic to expect the Middle and the End of the Baby Old God storyline and insulting your fan base's desire to see that end is myopic and weak. If they don't answer the Baby Old God question, DA: 2 will be a hard sell for me. There are other games.

For my money, I think they are just playing it down, because its what BW does, no one there seems adept at the art of Sublety. You can barely get a word out of them about a new patch, as if spilling its details would mean the end of BW, and quite possibly the end of life itself.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 12 mai 2010 - 12:32 .

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote..

Precisely why I feel Bioware should stick to various "arcs" spanning multiple games within a particular age in Thedas - ending each one conclusivley ala Throne of Bhaal, and then being free to move on to a different period. As it stands though, the budget allocated for an expansion simply will not be able to produce an expansion equalling the likes of Throne of Bhaal - production costs are ever escalating after all. Hence, I feel only a full blown sequel will satiate fans.

Agreed- I have no problem if Bioware does one shot stories, but if thats the case, end them with some "oomph" and a sense of closure for ALL of the players. Leaving a plot thread like Morrigan's is ok, so long as they pick it up in a meaningful fashion in the future. Like you mentioned Terra, if Awakening is anything to judge from, I don't think an ex-pack could adequately finish off the Warden's story. Maybe Bioware feels differently, but I think given the current dev costs to make a game, we won't be seeing a Throne of Bhaal type expansion anytime soon. I mean ToB was practically BG3 for all intents and purposes- despite its much shorter length compared to BG2 you felt it had closure to the Bhaalspawn's story.

Terra_Ex wrote..

 The end of the game really does dictate your lasting impression of that title, particularly so in a game driven by player choice. I truly feel for any new players experiencing Morrigan's story for the first time - they're screwed by default, through no fault of their own.

Totally, totally agree. In movies, books or games, the story can be fantastic but if the ending hits a sour note unfortunately thats what the end user is likely going to remember most. Not that it was a good movie/book/game but that it had a rubbish ending and clouds anything that came before it. I just think back to the movie The Departed; IMO, it's a fantatsic little movie and almost at the end I was thinking it would end poorly with the "bad guy" getting away but then BAM, you get a satisfactory, awesome ending. Had they let the "bad guy" get away it would have clouded my enjoyment of 99% of the rest of the movie. A game is different as you're dealing with an interactive medium and player choice should ideally dictate the ending to some extent, but the idea is the same.

Swoo wrote...

In my view the Morrigan romance is equal to a certain Jedi-Sith romance
late in the game. But instead of having the option they gave you to
bring the person back and have the Happily Ever After cutscene, you
basically free the person and then the Sith runs off, and you blow up
the Star Crusher and the game ends with you running into Sith space
hunting for the LI.

I'll say that KOTOR1's plot twist was freakin' awesome. Even after all these years since playing it, still a very awesome gaming moment- I remember getting to that point and just sort of sitting in front of the TV shocked for about 10 minutes.

As for Morrigan and that certain Jedi/Sith  I'm not even advocating a Happy Ever After ending with Morrigan necessarily, but just some kind of ending, not the whole "she vanished without a trace" nonsense. Unless of course Bioware follows through with bringing Morrigan and the Warden back - then its a moot point.

Swoo wrote...

KOTOR2 already ticked me off for it's shoddy overall craftmanship, and
I really took a punch when the LI showed up for the 20 second clip
depressed and saying they had no clue where he(I) had gone...

Thats what I fear in DA2- we'll see Morrigan again but its as some new unrelated Hero, so you're left with the unpleasant disconnect between the player and the PC where you as the player is like "Hey its Morrigan/Bastila!" but then as the newbie PC, Morrigan/Bastila doesn't know who the hell the PC is and you, the player end up disappointed.

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 mai 2010 - 12:49 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Ash Wind wrote...

The myopic line was hilarious, given the fact 'They' opened the door on the Morrigan/Baby Old God storyline, and now were just supposed to forget it. Sorry BW and Gaider, it doesn't work that way. Star Wars ended with Darth Vader still alive, when plans for a sequel were announced, fans had every right to believe it would continue the story of the first movie.

At their most basic forms, stories have a Beginning, a Middle and an End. I don't think its myopic to expect the Middle and the End of the Baby Old God storyline and insulting your fan base's desire to see that end is myopic and weak. If they don't answer the Baby Old God question, DA: 2 will be a hard sell for me. There are other games.

For my money, I think they are just playing it down, because its what BW does, no one there seems adept at the art of Sublety. You can barely get a word out of them about a new patch, as if spilling its details would mean the end of BW, and quite possibly the end of life itself.

Yeah, a developer gives players nearly unlimited choices in an interactive video game story, then said developer feigns that he understands their disappointment, but calls some players "myopic" for having developed a set of expectations based upon those choices?  Wrong answer.  Just rings as contrived as the Dark Ritual to me.

No, I see Gaider hedging and trying to talk everyone off the ledge, but unfortunately everyone's already jumped.

I'm sure we'll see Morrigan again, but I'm not so sure that we will necessarily be glad we did, with their almost masochistic love of the dark on this side of BW.  They really ought to walk over to the ME side of the business and take a look at what will damn sure work.  "Their way" appears a little too risky with a certain faction of the fan base.

BTW, if we're myopic, then we've certainly deserved the right to be so.  Last time I checked we were the consumers and they were the one's trying to hock a product.  Myopic may just be a condition suffered by much of the consumer base you're attempting to develop. 

Well if they're insistent on doing it "their way," then make sure you all vote accordingly.  As you've well stated, "there are other games."

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 12 mai 2010 - 01:12 .

[Swoo]

Ash Wind wrote...
For my money, I think they are just playing it down, because its what BW does, no one there seems adept at the art of Sublety. You can barely get a word out of them about a new patch, as if spilling its details would mean the end of BW, and quite possibly the end of life itself.

Oh, I completely agree with this Ash. I think that even though it wasn't planned, it was just one of those things that turned into such a hook you just know it's coming back. Our concern is how. I want my personal story finished with my character I invested so much time into. 

I'll say that KOTOR1's plot twist was freakin' awesome. Even after
all these years since playing it, still a very awesome gaming moment- I
remember getting to that point and just sort of sitting in front of the
TV shocked for about 10 minutes.

As for Morrigan and that
certain Jedi/Sith  I'm not even advocating a Happy Ever After ending
with Morrigan necessarily, but just some kind of ending, not the whole
"she vanished without a trace" nonsense. Unless of course Bioware
follows through with bringing Morrigan and the Warden back - then its a
moot point.

Agreed, I was just trying to put it in perspective a bit. The Morrigan line currently is really similiar to another horrible loose-end that at least had the benefit of momentary closure, we didn't get that. It honestly would be like the Crusher 'I love you' scene straight into KOTOR 2. Feel that pain!

I've said it in a few threads, I'll be totally cool if they let a new PC form a new story for the new Dragon Age, just as long as I get my equal shot to finish my story from DA1. Some people have rock solid closure, some..not so much. The thing keeping me hopeful is the smashing job they did bridging the end of Baldurs Gate, the fact that this is going to be kept in house (so no Obsidian bullcrap shennanigans), and that the buzz is strong enough they would either have to be idiots or come across something so amazing they just HAVE to run with it instead, to brush the Morrigan/OGB idea to the wayside.

I say we just bribe someone to make a Lost at Sea DLC where Alistair's ship goes down and then rumors start rumbling about him wandering around some other nation. Combine forces, force Bioware to continue! Buahahahaha.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ash Wind wrote...
At their most basic forms, stories have a Beginning, a Middle and an End. I don't think its myopic to expect the Middle and the End of the Baby Old God storyline and insulting your fan base's desire to see that end is myopic and weak. If they don't answer the Baby Old God question, DA: 2 will be a hard sell for me. There are other games.

I somewhat agree Ash, however it's important to remember this. Bioware never claimed that the DA franchise will be a trilogy like Mass Effect or that it will follow one story / character, in fact they stressed that it will not be the same.

So while in Mass Effect, the story is about a beginning, middle and end, and we all expect ME3 to deal with the reapers and other plots delt with in the first games, the same logic does not apply to Dragon Age.
 
That doesn't mean to say that a sequel that continues the Warden's story is impossible or undesirable, I of course would prefer it to be that way and to have closure for the Morrigan romance. But the thing is, Bioware did not say that Origins will be the beginning of a story, but it is rather the beginning of a franchise. 

A counter argument of course would be the epilogues and how they hint at a sequel or continuation.  But that's not a guarantee and they could be ignored. So we'll have to wait and see.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

The thing keeping me hopeful is the smashing job they did bridging the end of Baldurs Gate, the fact that this is going to be kept in house (so no Obsidian bullcrap shennanigans), and that the buzz is strong enough they would either have to be idiots or come across something so amazing they just HAVE to run with it instead, to brush the Morrigan/OGB idea to the wayside.

Yeah- The fact that the 2 sequels Bioware has made (BG2 and ME2) were quite fantastic IMO, makes me hopeful Bioware can pull through and make DA2 even better than Origins. But just going off of the DLC and Awakening's quality combined with some of the ambiguous comments from the devs regarding the future of the Warden and continuity, I'm skeptical. But I'm more than willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt, but after Awakening I'm likely not going to be rushing out to preorder DA2, at least until we get some solid info regarding Morrigan and the Warden.

[Ash Wind]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...

The myopic line was hilarious, given the fact 'They' opened the door on the Morrigan/Baby Old God storyline, and now were just supposed to forget it. Sorry BW and Gaider, it doesn't work that way. Star Wars ended with Darth Vader still alive, when plans for a sequel were announced, fans had every right to believe it would continue the story of the first movie.

At their most basic forms, stories have a Beginning, a Middle and an End. I don't think its myopic to expect the Middle and the End of the Baby Old God storyline and insulting your fan base's desire to see that end is myopic and weak. If they don't answer the Baby Old God question, DA: 2 will be a hard sell for me. There are other games.

For my money, I think they are just playing it down, because its what BW does, no one there seems adept at the art of Sublety. You can barely get a word out of them about a new patch, as if spilling its details would mean the end of BW, and quite possibly the end of life itself.

Yeah, a developer gives players nearly unlimited choices in an interactive video game story, then said developer feigns that he understands their disappointment, but calls some players "myopic" for having developed a set of expectations based upon those choices?  Wrong answer.  Just rings as contrived as the Dark Ritual to me.

No, I see Gaider hedging and trying to talk everyone off the ledge, but unfortunately everyone's already jumped.

I'm sure we'll see Morrigan again, but I'm not so sure that we will necessarily be glad we did, with their almost masochistic love of the dark on this side of BW.  They really ought to walk over to the ME side of the business and take a look at what will damn sure work.  "Their way" appears a little too risky with a certain faction of the fan base.

BTW, if we're myopic, then we've certainly deserved the right to be so.  Last time I checked we were the consumers and they were the one's trying to hock a product.  Myopic may just be a condition suffered by much of the consumer base you're attempting to develop. 

Well if they're insistent on doing it "their way," then make sure you all vote accordingly.  As you've well stated, "there are other games."

Sometimes I wonder if BW should stand for BioWare, or Bizzaro World. Some of the posts of its employees leave you scratching your head at times. As a writer, you would think you would be jazzed that a large group of people (i.e. paying consumers) were enthralled with the characters and storylines you have created. But no, we get into the storyline and the character, and have cold water thrown on us (by the very writer no less) for wanting more. That so smells of the attitude of 'We're smarter than you are, trust me, you're going to love playing the Qunari Priest 'The Billy' and enjoy his quests for cookie reciepes." Let us fix what isn't broken!!!!

I have never heard of an author being critical of people who bought into their work. Which leads me to believe hopefully that it is merely a (albeit ****** and lame) way of keeping things underwraps until they feel comfortable revealing anything.

There is an unresolved and unanswered storyline to DA:O. Until its resolved, it is incomplete.

[Brockololly]

Ash Wind wrote...

 Which leads me to believe hopefully that it is merely a (albeit ****** and lame) way of keeping things underwraps until they feel comfortable revealing anything.

There is an unresolved and unanswered storyline to DA:O. Until its resolved, it is incomplete.

Before they've announced anything officially you can only expect the wishy washy PR speak from the devs. In any event I appreciate them coming on the forums- at least they're reading some of the stuff on here and know there are those that want MOAR! Morrigan and an actual resolution to the Morri/Warden romance.

As negative/pessimistic/skeptical as I may be now, if Bioware can answer 2 questions I'll gladly plunk down some $$$ for DA2- 1.) Is the Warden returning as the PC? 2.) Is Morrigan returning as a love interest? 

Answer those 2 questions (hopefully with a yes on both counts) and then maybe release a nice teaser trailer at E3 with CG from Blur like the Sacred Ashes trailer, throw in some epic music from Two Steps From Hell like th ME2 Launch trailer and add in a snippet of Claudia Black's voice and I'll be sold Bioware, sold!

Or perhaps thats just me being shortsighted and I need to temper my expectations a bit

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 mai 2010 - 02:19 .

[fenderstrat6]

blademaster7 wrote...

You guys can't be serious. You are alright with continuing a story/romance with a new character? Wouldn't you rather have some closure before moving on to new things?

DAO was a game with a half-assed ending for me.  I finished the game and instead of getting the feeling of accomplishment I felt like a chump. Die, let someone else die and overshadow you or let the plot hammer of doom smack you in the head and get an ending with no closure whatsoever.

Who's to say that DA2 won't have the same BS? New, characters, new romances... and in the end the same crappy ending with so many questions that will remain un-answered, and your PC feeling like a total idiot for making the "right" decisions. Moving from an un-finished game to another is not something I'm particularly fond of. If this is the formula they plan on using then I'm back to shooters.

I don't really care about romance continuation(hell, I may be the only one around here lol). I just want some freeaking closure before I'm ready to see the DA universe from a different perspective. It could be tragedy or death for all I care. At least is better than the "Morrigan disappears(DAO)" and "Warden disappears right behind her(DAA)" BS we have to content with.

my mistake sorry, i agree it would not be the same with a new charcater, all the time spent in game, an get emotonaly involved, if it does turn out that we cant use are origianl warden, well that will be a kick in the azz. that'll take the wind out of my sails. hope it dont turn out like that.

Modifié par fenderstrat6, 12 mai 2010 - 02:40 .

[Ash Wind]

Swoo wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...
For my money, I think they are just playing it down, because its what BW does, no one there seems adept at the art of Sublety. You can barely get a word out of them about a new patch, as if spilling its details would mean the end of BW, and quite possibly the end of life itself.

Oh, I completely agree with this Ash. I think that even though it wasn't planned, it was just one of those things that turned into such a hook you just know it's coming back. Our concern is how. I want my personal story finished with my character I invested so much time into. 

I'll say that KOTOR1's plot twist was freakin' awesome. Even after
all these years since playing it, still a very awesome gaming moment- I
remember getting to that point and just sort of sitting in front of the
TV shocked for about 10 minutes.

As for Morrigan and that
certain Jedi/Sith  I'm not even advocating a Happy Ever After ending
with Morrigan necessarily, but just some kind of ending, not the whole
"she vanished without a trace" nonsense. Unless of course Bioware
follows through with bringing Morrigan and the Warden back - then its a
moot point.

Agreed, I was just trying to put it in perspective a bit. The Morrigan line currently is really similiar to another horrible loose-end that at least had the benefit of momentary closure, we didn't get that. It honestly would be like the Crusher 'I love you' scene straight into KOTOR 2. Feel that pain!

I've said it in a few threads, I'll be totally cool if they let a new PC form a new story for the new Dragon Age, just as long as I get my equal shot to finish my story from DA1. Some people have rock solid closure, some..not so much. The thing keeping me hopeful is the smashing job they did bridging the end of Baldurs Gate, the fact that this is going to be kept in house (so no Obsidian bullcrap shennanigans), and that the buzz is strong enough they would either have to be idiots or come across something so amazing they just HAVE to run with it instead, to brush the Morrigan/OGB idea to the wayside.

I say we just bribe someone to make a Lost at Sea DLC where Alistair's ship goes down and then rumors start rumbling about him wandering around some other nation. Combine forces, force Bioware to continue! Buahahahaha.

I would also like the my character's storyline conitnued. I like those kind of games. And with the Morrigan/Baby Old God storyline, if it is to be conitnued, I would only want my character dealing with it. I have no interest in dealing with Morrigan and the baby as an Orleaisan or any other character.

[fenderstrat6]

my mistake sorry, i agree it would not be the same with a new charcater, all the time spent in game, an get emotonaly involved, if it does turn out that we cant use are origianl warden, well that will be a kick in the azz. that'll take the wind out of my sails. hope it dont turn out like that.

Modifié par fenderstrat6, 12 mai 2010 - 02:42 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Ash Wind wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...

The myopic line was hilarious, given the fact 'They' opened the door on the Morrigan/Baby Old God storyline, and now were just supposed to forget it. Sorry BW and Gaider, it doesn't work that way. Star Wars ended with Darth Vader still alive, when plans for a sequel were announced, fans had every right to believe it would continue the story of the first movie.

At their most basic forms, stories have a Beginning, a Middle and an End. I don't think its myopic to expect the Middle and the End of the Baby Old God storyline and insulting your fan base's desire to see that end is myopic and weak. If they don't answer the Baby Old God question, DA: 2 will be a hard sell for me. There are other games.

For my money, I think they are just playing it down, because its what BW does, no one there seems adept at the art of Sublety. You can barely get a word out of them about a new patch, as if spilling its details would mean the end of BW, and quite possibly the end of life itself.

Yeah, a developer gives players nearly unlimited choices in an interactive video game story, then said developer feigns that he understands their disappointment, but calls some players "myopic" for having developed a set of expectations based upon those choices?  Wrong answer.  Just rings as contrived as the Dark Ritual to me.

No, I see Gaider hedging and trying to talk everyone off the ledge, but unfortunately everyone's already jumped.

I'm sure we'll see Morrigan again, but I'm not so sure that we will necessarily be glad we did, with their almost masochistic love of the dark on this side of BW.  They really ought to walk over to the ME side of the business and take a look at what will damn sure work.  "Their way" appears a little too risky with a certain faction of the fan base.

BTW, if we're myopic, then we've certainly deserved the right to be so.  Last time I checked we were the consumers and they were the one's trying to hock a product.  Myopic may just be a condition suffered by much of the consumer base you're attempting to develop. 

Well if they're insistent on doing it "their way," then make sure you all vote accordingly.  As you've well stated, "there are other games."

Sometimes I wonder if BW should stand for BioWare, or Bizzaro World. Some of the posts of its employees leave you scratching your head at times. As a writer, you would think you would be jazzed that a large group of people (i.e. paying consumers) were enthralled with the characters and storylines you have created. But no, we get into the storyline and the character, and have cold water thrown on us (by the very writer no less) for wanting more. That so smells of the attitude of 'We're smarter than you are, trust me, you're going to love playing the Qunari Priest 'The Billy' and enjoy his quests for cookie reciepes." Let us fix what isn't broken!!!!

I have never heard of an author being critical of people who bought into their work. Which leads me to believe hopefully that it is merely a (albeit ****** and lame) way of keeping things underwraps until they feel comfortable revealing anything.

There is an unresolved and unanswered storyline to DA:O. Until its resolved, it is incomplete.

You're being myopic Ash Wind!!!

Agree with all.  Playing anything but my Warden in DA2 is not an option for me.  Ignoring Morrigan or reducing her to a .ppt slide is a non-starter.  It's fine if others love that sort of thing, or its trendy or whatever, but its just not going to work for this player.  But I will say, Dragon Age at least was a good intro to the RPG side of gaming for me personally and it did allow me to find Mass Effect where before I hadn't even considered it.
 
Speaking of which I'm replaying ME1 right now, for the third time, and am right at the end.  It is just epic bad ass!  That's probably my problem, I like the hero who saves the galaxy from the boogie man and does it in a big way.  If I want real life or "reality" as some say, I'll walk out the front door thank you.  I'll be booting up my second playthrough of ME2 tonight and am really looking forward to it.  Wish I could say the same for DA2.  Gaider has said nothing to change my mind here, in fact, just the opposite.

BTW if you haven't played Mass Effect and ME2, you ought to try it.  It has redeemed Bioware somewhat in my eyes from that...well...I'll be nice...that Dragon Age...well, let's just say it was a great game ruined (for me) by it's horrid ending.

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

 That's probably my problem, I like the hero who saves the galaxy from the boogie man and does it in a big way.  If I want real life or "reality" as some say, I'll walk out the front door thank you.  I'll be booting up my second playthrough of ME2 tonight and am really looking forward to it.  Wish I could say the same for DA2.  Gaider has said nothing to change my mind here, in fact, just the opposite.
.

See thats the thing for me. With ME and ME2,  I think part of its badass-ness is the whole cinematic presentation- I mean the whole suicide mission is in my opinion phenomenal because its the culmination of the player's actions and seeing the results of those actions play out on screen with the epic music and everything. In DA, probably the closest scene you get is when you kill the archdemon, in terms of heroic feeling. Arguably both ME2 and DAO end on a brooding, storm clouds on the horizon type of scenario but at least with ME2 we can be sure Shep will get the chance to reunite with his ME1 LI and kill Reapers. But for Origins? We have no clue if our Warden will get to do anything else.

I believe Bioware propped up DA as a "dark heroic fantasy epic"- I'd say DA2 needs a bit more of ME's "heroic" twist of things. The whole dark fantasy thing is fine and you can definitely throw in some doom and gloom, but the important thing is keeping the player involved and maintaining player agency when you go all dark, otherwise it ends up like the DR where you feel like your PC's hands are tied and is powerless. That why I love ME2- its entirely possible to F up the suicide mission and have Shep or your crew die- but its not some arbitrary, Plot Hammer dictating things, its the player and their choices that led to the conclusion.

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 mai 2010 - 02:59 .

[Ash Wind]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...
At their most basic forms, stories have a Beginning, a Middle and an End. I don't think its myopic to expect the Middle and the End of the Baby Old God storyline and insulting your fan base's desire to see that end is myopic and weak. If they don't answer the Baby Old God question, DA: 2 will be a hard sell for me. There are other games.

I somewhat agree Ash, however it's important to remember this. Bioware never claimed that the DA franchise will be a trilogy like Mass Effect or that it will follow one story / character, in fact they stressed that it will not be the same.

So while in Mass Effect, the story is about a beginning, middle and end, and we all expect ME3 to deal with the reapers and other plots delt with in the first games, the same logic does not apply to Dragon Age.
 
That doesn't mean to say that a sequel that continues the Warden's story is impossible or undesirable, I of course would prefer it to be that way and to have closure for the Morrigan romance. But the thing is, Bioware did not say that Origins will be the beginning of a story, but it is rather the beginning of a franchise. 

A counter argument of course would be the epilogues and how they hint at a sequel or continuation.  But that's not a guarantee and they could be ignored. So we'll have to wait and see.

By a beginning, middle and end, I don't mean a triology per se, we have a beginning, the DR (as poorly executed as it was). It would be nice to have a middle, (compications) and a resolution that could occur in an expansion, or as part of DA:2.
In the end, Bioware owes us nothing. I bought a game that worked as it was supposed to and provided hours of enterntainment. However, from a storyline sense, it makes little sense to open a door on a plot point as big as the Morrigan/Baby is, and then to fan the flames further with the Awakenings epilogue "...to search for the dark-haired soceress..."  and not expect to create an expectation for story continuance.
Time will tell. The storyline could go unresolved, it could get solved by a new character, which doesn't hold much of my interest. Time will tell.

[Ash Wind]

Brockololly wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...

 Which leads me to believe hopefully that it is merely a (albeit ****** and lame) way of keeping things underwraps until they feel comfortable revealing anything.

There is an unresolved and unanswered storyline to DA:O. Until its resolved, it is incomplete.

Before they've announced anything officially you can only expect the wishy washy PR speak from the devs. In any event I appreciate them coming on the forums- at least they're reading some of the stuff on here and know there are those that want MOAR! Morrigan and an actual resolution to the Morri/Warden romance.

As negative/pessimistic/skeptical as I may be now, if Bioware can answer 2 questions I'll gladly plunk down some $$$ for DA2- 1.) Is the Warden returning as the PC? 2.) Is Morrigan returning as a love interest? 

Answer those 2 questions (hopefully with a yes on both counts) and then maybe release a nice teaser trailer at E3 with CG from Blur like the Sacred Ashes trailer, throw in some epic music from Two Steps From Hell like th ME2 Launch trailer and add in a snippet of Claudia Black's voice and I'll be sold Bioware, sold!

Or perhaps thats just me being shortsighted and I need to temper my expectations a bit

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate them coming to the forums and posting, its just that there are some WTF moments. lol

It's an automatic buy for me if those two answers are Yes. Other than that, it will be a dissatisfied wait and see what people say. If it doesn't continue the DA:O characters, I would prefer they don't include Morrigan/Baby Old God storyline.

So... I wonder what would I hate more... 1, Continuing the current storyline and ultimately having to Kill Morrigan and BOG or 2, having a totally new character who has no association with that storyline or has to deal with them as a minor side quest?

[Vicious]

Post is terrible and I'm sorry, but my english is not so great.

As negative/pessimistic/skeptical as I may be now, if Bioware can answer 2 questions I'll gladly plunk down some $$$ for DA2- 1.) Is the Warden returning as the PC? 2.) Is Morrigan returning as a love interest?

No on the first, who knows on the second. But the Warden ain't coming back. Does that leave the story unfinished? Yes. But you fellas need to realize that the Warden

Might be with Leliana spelunking
Might be with Zevran adventuring
Might be with Alistair ruling
Might be with Anora ruling
Might be chasing Morrigan in Orlais.

Basically, by bringing the Warden back for DA2 they will inevitably disservice a good chunk of people. It's not even worth it, just so people can get some closure with Morrigan? The whole point of the romance wasn't to obsessively chase after her. it was to let her go. If you loved her, you trusted her and respected her wishes. If you didn't, you moved on with your life and did other things.

The only reason the 'I will follow Morrigan!' bit is in there is because at one point, I am sure they intended to continue with The Warden. But things have changed. He is not a flagship character for a series. Morrigan is closer to a flagship character than the faceless nameless Warden/Warden Commander will ever be in a million years.

You gentlemen ignore the fact that they already replaced the Warden. and he is called the Orlesian Warden. He had nothing to do with Morrigan and yet for all intents and purposes is capable of completely replacing the main character. I'm sorry, but strong characters are irreplacable. Weak characters, however, are. And in the end The Warden is just that. A character so nebulous he pretty much HAS to be replaced for their to be replaced to have continuity without screwing the a chunk of the fanbase.



As for the epilogue slides of Awakenings, it's pretty clear they were written in a way to just say, "Your character went back to whatever it was you wanted him/her to be doing." And yes, in most of the endings The Warden mysteriously disappears... but so does the Orlesian Warden. And last time I checked he/she had absolutely nothing to do with Morrigan.

That why I love ME2- its entirely possible to F up the suicide mission and have Shep or your crew die- but its not some arbitrary, Plot Hammer dictating things, its the player and their choices that led to the conclusion.

I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with you.

Because now I am very sure The Warden will be shelved for DA2 and it will continue on in a way that will make nobody very happy. least of all Morrigan romance fans.

Modifié par Vicious, 12 mai 2010 - 05:30 .

[Ash Wind]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You're being myopic Ash Wind!!!

Agree with all.  Playing anything but my Warden in DA2 is not an option for me.  Ignoring Morrigan or reducing her to a .ppt slide is a non-starter.  It's fine if others love that sort of thing, or its trendy or whatever, but its just not going to work for this player.  But I will say, Dragon Age at least was a good intro to the RPG side of gaming for me personally and it did allow me to find Mass Effect where before I hadn't even considered it.
 
Speaking of which I'm replaying ME1 right now, for the third time, and am right at the end.  It is just epic bad ass!  That's probably my problem, I like the hero who saves the galaxy from the boogie man and does it in a big way.  If I want real life or "reality" as some say, I'll walk out the front door thank you.  I'll be booting up my second playthrough of ME2 tonight and am really looking forward to it.  Wish I could say the same for DA2.  Gaider has said nothing to change my mind here, in fact, just the opposite.

BTW if you haven't played Mass Effect and ME2, you ought to try it.  It has redeemed Bioware somewhat in my eyes from that...well...I'll be nice...that Dragon Age...well, let's just say it was a great game ruined (for me) by it's horrid ending.

Hehehe... I can't see the forest through the trees
While I won't say I abolutely will say no to DA:2 without Morrigan, I can tell you if it doesn't include My Character/Morrigan/Baby Old God:  AshWind Disapproves -75. It will have to be one monumentally awesome game for me to get it.

Haven't tried ME and ME2 as of yet. The postings have piqued my interest, but if I do get, I want to play them in order and haven't seen ME lying around. I'm sure I will eventually.

The ending was both horrid and descent. Descent in the sense that it left you wanting more. Of course when you state an opinion to have more... you're called.... MYOPIC!!!!!!

The DR was horribly executed, no doubt. Still not sure if was bad planning or bad execution. People say it was tempered because of time restraints. I guess that could be true, but really, unless the ending was written on the fly (and the more I read from the devs, that might be the case) it should have been planned for far in advance.

I so hated Morrigan's 'attitude', that on my very first playthrough... I choose death!

Modifié par Ash Wind, 12 mai 2010 - 06:20 .

[Addai]

Ash Wind, your earlier comments seemed a little harsh, but it reminds me of the headspin I did after Awakening came out and the devs were commenting on the new dialogue system. It was news to me that Origins' camp dialogue system was "broken," tedious, etc. Granted, hearing the same dialogues 20 times or more by now, some of them have gotten old. But I am still uncovering dialogue options that are new to me. The itch to fix what isn't broken does seem to be upon the dev team.

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

Ash Wind, your earlier comments seemed a little harsh, but it reminds me of the headspin I did after Awakening came out and the devs were commenting on the new dialogue system. It was news to me that Origins' camp dialogue system was "broken," tedious, etc. Granted, hearing the same dialogues 20 times or more by now, some of them have gotten old. But I am still uncovering dialogue options that are new to me. The itch to fix what isn't broken does seem to be upon the dev team.

And thats what kind of concerns meabout DA2 and future DA games. Sure the devs want to continually improve things and maybe the effort involved in writing and implementing the Origins dialogue sytem was too onerous to maintain going forward, but IMO the Awakening system is rubbish. From reading everything Gaider posted in that thread, I understand what they were trying to do, but especially compared to Origins it didn't work .

Thats in part what I'm wondering how DA2 is going to be like- will it be a natural extension of Origins with some refinements here and there or is it going to be more like ME2 where they made some rather wholesale, drastic changes to things? The changes don't have to be bad but IMO the changes they made to the dialogue system in Awakening, however well intentioned, were bad for me, the player. Maybe it worked better for the writers, but it sucked for me as the player.

[Ash Wind]

Addai67 wrote...

Ash Wind, your earlier comments seemed a little harsh, but it reminds me of the headspin I did after Awakening came out and the devs were commenting on the new dialogue system. It was news to me that Origins' camp dialogue system was "broken," tedious, etc. Granted, hearing the same dialogues 20 times or more by now, some of them have gotten old. But I am still uncovering dialogue options that are new to me. The itch to fix what isn't broken does seem to be upon the dev team.

Harsh....me?... Never!!!! Ok, the ****** and lame comment was a little strong... I should have used Clumsily.

lol Yes, I too recall finding out the dialogue system in DA:O which worked just fine in my opinion, was broken. And on the list of things that needed fixing/improving, it would be very low on my list. I understand some people have complaints, but for the most part it was fine. I didn't care for the system in Awakenings. Thought it negatively affected the immersion of the game.

[Swoo]

Your English is fine, and sometimes it's good to have the 'other' voice around so it doesn't become a 100 page of us all agreeing.

Yes the Warden has many options when DA ends, and I don't think anyone is advocating that other endings should be discarded so we get 'our' story into the limelight. I think some people are content with their Wardens story and are ready to move onto new things, so I'm fine with the option to create a brand new PC and make a new story with it if they want to. Bioware did it with the Baldurs Gate series, you could import, or you could make a new guy, choice was yours. As to how do you get to Point B when Point A is actually seven different points, I think that's something DG was saying earlier in his company-speak (which everyone in his position would use, no slam on him) in that there are as many Pros and Cons for continuing as there are for starting fresh.

Much like Awakenings, it's going to come down to Player Choice. You could continue with a sacrificed Warden and continue his story, completely disregarding what came before, if you the player were cool with it. Let's be under no allusions, there WILL be a new PC option in DA2. Bioware won't push out a massive release that requires you to buy a two year old game, complete it, and then swap over. That option is going to be there. So the question becomes is there enough story and player desire to continue, or is there not enough and they should go another way? I personally believe there is enough to continue. And you talk to fans from many of the other endings and yes, they would like more as well. More Alistair, More Zevran, More Chantry-Girl. There is enough for every ending except the Sacrifice that there is still room to grow with a character, and if the player believes there isn't, well they will/could have the choice to just not load the save and use a new PC. Or they can go like the USac players and complain that Awakenings completely ruined there game because they decided to make a choice to use a dead player in a future story, instead of using a new leveled up Bioware PC in it's place.

I don't believe the Bioware Orlesian Warden tips a hand to any future plans for or against in any sort of finality. I do think Awakenings was made just with the Orlesian in mind, and many of the screw-ups were from them trying to shoehorn in our old PCs, but I personally thought that it was more of a 'don't screw with the OG saves so it doesn't bring up complications linking DA1 to DA2' more than anything else. But one thing that is really telling is that all the stories pretty much end up in the same place, out of Ferelden with great deeds still yet to be heard. Sounds like the Plot-Hammer winding up to get everyone close to Page One when the time comes to me, but that's just speculation and we could go back and forth and neither one honestly prove anything there. I also believe that it is rather telling that there is no Epilogue Save for him, and that Awakenings was meant more as a 'While Elsewhere...' kind of side story than a bridging of metaplots.

The biggest butting of heads of continuation in my mind comes from the Mass Effect camps vs the Baldurs Gate camps. The BG hero was as nameless as the Warden is, but as easy replaceable as he looked after taking out Sarevok in Game I, you couldn't imagine Games II or III without him. And he was a very fluid character to lock down; Mine was a Elf Kensai who did the right thing, others had evil Mages or Clerics devoted to myriad Gods, on and on. Then people point to Shepard as what a PC should be, but I've never really felt that. I LOVE the Mass Effect games, and I'll be right there for number 3, but honestly...I'm playing Bioware's PC in that one. I'm more renting their Shepard than really playing my own, and that's fine for the grand Space Opera they are weaving over there. The thing that gives me hope is that the less-defined types like the Abdel Adrian's of Baldurs Gate (I believe that was the canonical name they gave him) and the Wardens offer a chance for more personal investment, creating both a better personal product and player loyalty, than Pre-Fab PCs. You build up a guy from scratch, and you get it right carrying over through multiple meta-plots into a defenitive finish, and you leave players with grand stories that they'll carry with them ten years later like BG.

In the end, who knows. It's just as possible it's going to go down your way as it will the way I hope it will.

/Duncan, 'We'll See.'

Vicious wrote...

Modifié par Swoo, 12 mai 2010 - 06:26 .

[Ash Wind]

Vicious wrote...

Post is terrible and I'm sorry, but my english is not so great.

As negative/pessimistic/skeptical as I may be now, if Bioware can answer 2 questions I'll gladly plunk down some $$$ for DA2- 1.) Is the Warden returning as the PC? 2.) Is Morrigan returning as a love interest?

No on the first, who knows on the second. But the Warden ain't coming back. Does that leave the story unfinished? Yes. But you fellas need to realize that the Warden

Might be with Leliana spelunking
Might be with Zevran adventuring
Might be with Alistair ruling
Might be with Anora ruling
Might be chasing Morrigan in Orlais.

Basically, by bringing the Warden back for DA2 they will inevitably disservice a good chunk of people. It's not even worth it, just so people can get some closure with Morrigan? The whole point of the romance wasn't to obsessively chase after her. it was to let her go. If you loved her, you trusted her and respected her wishes. If you didn't, you moved on with your life and did other things.

For starters, your English seems fine, no need to fret about it. I am not going to repost the whole post as it is long...

That said. I think there is room for both. There definitely seems to be a New Character Versus Continuing Character camps. Each side plays their game, the way they want to and don't want to be forced to play someone else's way.

I'm not sure why, but the New Character camp seems dead set against allowing any continuation for players that want to play a continuing character, and I am not entirely sure why? No one, not even BioWare, I would imagine can give any hard numbers regarding gamers who want something new versus gamers who want to continue a current character.

Even the forums are not indicitive of this fact, as only a small percentage of people who play the game ever post here. 

They can do both. Like Awakenings, allow you to create a New Character or Continue an Old Character. But for the game sake, if you continue a character, it should have to start out from scratch just as any new character would.

When this is suggested, the New Character camp screams "No!" and cite game resources chief among their reasons. Which is an empty argument, it would take little more game resources for NPCs to know me as the Hero of Ferelden, as it would for other NPCs to know whether I was Male or Female, Human Noble, Dwarf Noble, Dwarf Commoner, City Elf or Dailish Elf.

On this point, both camps can be satisfied, and yet that doesn't seem to please the New Character camp.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 12 mai 2010 - 03:44 .

[Brockololly]

As for the whole multiple endings being overly obtrusive in carrying forward the Warden, there are definite ways around that if thats what Bioware wants to do. To me, it would be great if BW boiled down the endings to Origins into 6 or so "origins" to start DA2. SO if you romanced Leliana you start with a Leliana origin, if you romanced Morrigan, you're origin is searching for her and so on. And if you never played DAO you start a new character and have a unique Origins that way.



Like Gaider mentioned, there are ways to do this if they want to and there are surely pros and cons to either approach. I just don't see Bioware doing something that is going to blatantly ****** off and disappoint everyone. It all comes down to making an excellent game, like Gaider said, and in the end if carrying your Warden forward is what BW thinks would make an excellent game then thats what we'll get. If not, we'll just have to see.

[blademaster7]

If by "another excellent game" they mean "invest another 60+ hours and get caught into another DR and get an ending with no closure" then I'll pass.



Is this the formula they're using? Hook the players into the game with a sequel-bait decision, and don't give them any answers whatsoever? Just keep them interested enough so they buy the next game. And then, the circle starts anew. A new character that get's punished if he pursues romance X. He gets yet another half-assed ending in order to keep him hooked for the next installment. Rinse and repeat. You have the fans at your feet begging for more.



But I guess my views are myopic for wanting continuation for a game that SCREAMS continuation.



PS: Can I have one of those silly sigbars? I want it to read "I used to be a Morrigan fan, now I just have myopia".

[Arundor]

blademaster7 wrote...

PS: Can I have one of those silly sigbars? I want it to read "I used to be a Morrigan fan, now I just have myopia".

I realize this could easily be misinterpreted, so I just want to emphasize: I don't mean to be insulting or ungrateful. I understand that Bioware tries their best to make great games, and that sometimes things just don't come together quite the way fans expect it.

This is just meant in fun. I couldn't resist the opportunity for snarkiness.

Here you go:

Modifié par Arundor, 12 mai 2010 - 08:09 .