16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Shiori]

Here's a smilling optimistic Morri to lighten your day.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 12 mai 2010 - 06:43 .

[Terra_Ex]

blademaster7 wrote...

[]

Brockololly wrote...

Thats the thing really though- for me at least, the main thing I want to see carried forward are the characters. Who is king of Orzammar or whether you sided with the Werewolves/Dalish become irrelevent or reduced to a couple lines of dialogue or are easily canonized if you set the game in Orlais or some other country. The things I'd like to see imported would be your LI and the BIG choices, like who is king/queen and whether you did the DR or not. And they could always take the BG route too, where they start the game with the Warden plunked down in a dungeon some mysterious place and as you escape you stumble across your old companions.

If we get to import our Warden and all the romance associated flags then I'm sold.

As for decisions. The only one that matters is the DR. And lets face it, you don't need a save game from DAO to see that in DA2. Unless they decide to scrap Morrigan and the OGB, but who am I kidding.

Brockololly wrote...
As has been discussed ad nauseum, the problem with just starting a new hero is that means the Warden from Origins is done forever. And more likely than not, that also means we'll be stuck with some ambiguous "he vanished!" or a Viconia-like codex entry where we learned the "Hero of Ferelden was crushed by a giant boulder in his search for the dark haired sorceress." That would severely sour my outlook on future DA games.

I agree 100% but  I think we're running in circles here.

Instead of discussing about the character and post some eye candy  we are worried that our favorite Warden will get crushed by the giant boulder of doom. I'm also sceptical about the purchase of any further DA product. Sigh.

[/B)]

The Morri thread is a thread of hopes, dreams and the eternal desire for the same sense of closure the other LI's got  

Anyway, there's some hands-on preview of Darkspawn chronicles that was just posted in the news + announcements forum. Looks like killing everything is certainly the name of the game, and darkspawn approval equates to how much carnage you've wrought. *sigh* Good to see Bioware focusing on the important things...

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 12 mai 2010 - 06:48 .

[Master Shiori]

Terra_Ex wrote...
The Morri thread is a thread of hopes, dreams and the eternal desire for the same sense of closure the other LI's got  

Which sadly isn't something we should be forced to ask for. *sigh*

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...

The Morri thread is a thread of hopes, dreams and the eternal desire for the same sense of closure the other LI's got

Until the Plot Hammer of Doom crushes all hopes and dreams, with Gaider and Bioware maintaining sustenance off of the sweet, sweet tears of fanboys/girls alike.

Terra_Ex wrote...
Anyway, there's some hands-on preview of Darkspawn chronicles that was just posted in the news + announcements forum. Looks like killing everything is certainly the name of the game, and darkspawn approval equates to how much carnage you've wrought. *sigh* Good to see Bioware focusing on the important things...

*Sigh* come on Bioware, really? From the Gamespot preview:

In the Alienage, the city's elven slums, we led the charge to "crush the
spirit of the elves" by torching the tree at its centre. The tree
succumbed to an emissary's fireball, as did the elven rogue Zevran
shortly after. It's a shame most former party characters expire
unceremoniously, with nary a cutscene to mark their passing, especially
given that Bartel says BioWare intended to "tug the heartstrings" by
making you slaughter your former allies and love interests.

I get that its just a little stand alone alternate history module, but really Bioware? You're trying to milk emotional engagement out of us by killing the former companions and LI's? But when you do kill off the companions they just fall unceremoniously? It is only $5 and I'll see how its received, but I'll likely pass on this DLC...

Master Shiori wrote...

Yes, starting with a clean slate
for each DA title may seem easier now, but after a few games down the
road people might get tired of romances and characters that never seemto
continue past the original game.

Exactly. Even with Awakening, we already pretty much "started over" and got a whole new crew and everything. Ignoring the fact that its only an ex-pack, my impression is that most people still prefer most of the Origins crew over Awakening, although that might have more to do with the issues surrounding the dialogue system and your inability to really connect with the Awakening characters more than anything.

When you constantly cycle through characters and PC's with each game, no matter how good the story or game may be, to make it emotionally engaging is due in large part to the characters. So if the characters simply become disposable, interchangeable parts from game to game, you lose much of the buy-in from the player, especially when you leave unresolved plot threads hanging.

[blademaster7]

Screenshot time!

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Exactly. Even with Awakening, we already pretty much "started over" and got a whole new crew and everything. Ignoring the fact that its only an ex-pack, my impression is that most people still prefer most of the Origins crew over Awakening, although that might have more to do with the issues surrounding the dialogue system and your inability to really connect with the Awakening characters more than anything.

When you constantly cycle through characters and PC's with each game, no matter how good the story or game may be, to make it emotionally engaging is due in large part to the characters. So if the characters simply become disposable, interchangeable parts from game to game, you lose much of the buy-in from the player, especially when you leave unresolved plot threads hanging.

Not to mention that just because you have familiar characters returning doesn't mean they couldn't change or grow in the meantime based on their experience.

Good examples are companions from Baldur's Gate saga and ME1 and 2.

Jaheira and Khalid were a rather happy couple in BG1 until the events at the start of BG2 changed their lives. It was great seeing Jaheira struggle with her emotion as a result of that and also change her opinion of my pc for better or for worse.
Same with Viconia, Imoen and others.
In ME2 returning characters like Garrus and Tali weren't exactly the same people you knew in ME1.
They all went through their own crisis and trials between 2 games and came out changed as a result.

This kind of character development is what I'd love to see in DA and it can only be done by keeping those npcs
between games.
We all know how much Alistair, Leliana, Zevran, Morrigan, Sten and others change during the course of our adventure.
Now imagine how much more interesting they would all be in DA2 after several years of life and adventure away from our Warden. They would be familiar but also changed by what they experienced in the meantime, adding an air of mistery to them and making you want to get to know them again.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...


Not to mention that just because you have familiar characters returning doesn't mean they couldn't change or grow in the meantime based on their experience.

This kind of character development is what I'd love to see in DA and it can only be done by keeping those npcs
between games.
We all know how much Alistair, Leliana, Zevran, Morrigan, Sten and others change during the course of our adventure.
Now imagine how much more interesting they would all be in DA2 after several years of life and adventure away from our Warden. They would be familiar but also changed by what they experienced in the meantime, adding an air of mistery to them and making you want to get to know them again.

Exactly! New characters are fun and all, but its more satisfying to reunite with old companions and see how they've changed/not changed given time. That said, unlike in Awakening where the characters like Oghren or Wynne act weird when you meet them a reunion like with Garrus or Tali in ME2 was awesome, in part because you see how the companion characters react to any changes in your PC (like Shep working for Cereberus).

On the flip side of course, such changes in character can be for better or worse as you see with how Liara is all of a sudden a revenge hungry crazy in ME2.... Whats to stop Bioware from bringing back Morrigan but as a power hungry villain?

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 mai 2010 - 08:02 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Master Shiori wrote...

Yes, starting with a clean slate for each DA title may seem easier now, but after a few games down the road people might get tired of romances and characters that never seemto continue past the original game.

I'm already tired of all the romances and we don't even know what Feb 2011 is going to bring. 

Case in point, I just finished ME1 again last night, with the sole intention of romancing no one and guess what?...I found out Ashley and I were an item.  How in the hell did that happen?  I refused to talk to either her or Liara during the entire game. 

WTF?

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


Not to mention that just because you have familiar characters returning doesn't mean they couldn't change or grow in the meantime based on their experience.

This kind of character development is what I'd love to see in DA and it can only be done by keeping those npcs
between games.
We all know how much Alistair, Leliana, Zevran, Morrigan, Sten and others change during the course of our adventure.
Now imagine how much more interesting they would all be in DA2 after several years of life and adventure away from our Warden. They would be familiar but also changed by what they experienced in the meantime, adding an air of mistery to them and making you want to get to know them again.

Exactly! New characters are fun and all, but its more satisfying to reunite with old companions and see how they've changed/not changed given time. That said, unlike in Awakening where the characters like Oghren or Wynne act weird when you meet them a reunion like with Garrus or Tali in ME2 was awesome, in part because you see how the companion characters react to any changes in your PC (like Shep working for Cereberus).

On the flip side of course, such changes in character can be for better or worse as you see with how Liara is all of a sudden a revenge hungry crazy in ME2.... Whats to stop Bioware from bringing back Morrigan but as a power hungry villain?

Even if they did make her a villain (which I really doubt) she would still be like you remember her from the end of DA:O: a woman that now knows the value of love and friendship and is not just concerned with power and survival.

Such a Morrigan would be more akin to Loghain in Origins than to a typical villain like Arl Rendon Howe.
Anything she does would be more to secure her survival or power in order to achieve some goal and not to bring suffering and death for the sake of doing it.
Therefore she wouldn't really need to be killed as a matter of fact and could be reasoned with or even redeemed.

[Barbarossa2010]

Addai67 wrote...

...I don't even like Mass Effect, though I've tried to like it. I guess it seems obvious to me that people want closure to a story, even if it comes in some expository fashion rather than through actual roleplay.

If you don't have a shooter background, ME might seem like an overwhelming grind fest and fast twitch/aim exercise (especially on insanity level), with only the most basic elements of dialogue and RPG.  It truly is epic heroic if you play through to its larger than life ending, and let the story compel you to urgency.  That's one of the real draws for me.  You feel like you need to move fast and get things done, or something bad is going to happen.

ME2 is even more monumental in it's ending.  And you can really mess it up.  There are clearly consequences (one really, really bad one) to not preparing for battle and the decisions you make regarding your crew.  Mass Effect (1 and 2) are fantastic with the end game.  Best yet, IMHO. 

But I can definitely understand why it might not be every gamer's cup of tea.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 12 mai 2010 - 08:20 .

[Addai]

My husband is the real gamer, I'm just a wannabe. He managed to hook me on Fallout 3 and now DA:O. Bet he regrets it, since he's had to give up his PC a lot the past year or so. LOL



I did text-based roleplaying for quite a few years and used to sniff at his toon games. Games like DA:O really surprised me for their depth.

[tom2504]

Master Shiori wrote...

EDIT: I think I just died a little inside while writting(and reading) my last 2 posts... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]
I should stab myself in the foot next.

Yes  Don't lose faith just yet! 

[Master Shiori]

Here's some more food for thought.



If they want to make the events of Origins become part of the foundation of DA history, and thus make us feel like our actions actualy have some kind of impact on the world they'll need to start cannonizing things at sme point.



Example:



If they ever want to mention last Blight and the situation in Ferelden, they'll need to say how there was a civil war at the time and probably also say who assumed the throne at Landsmeet.

That means cannonizing Alistair as either a king or exiled/executed.



Same for Morri. If they want to bring her back at some point then they'll need to decide if the dark ritual happened or not. Otherwise fans are going to be frustrated and demand to know if their decisions even mattered. Cannonizing that will also pretty much cannonize the fate of your Warden, ie. whether he survived the final battle or not.



They'll also need to decide who ended the Blight by killing he Archdemon and means cannonizing what happened to Alistair, Loghain or Warden.



The more I think about this the more I see how big a hole Bioware has dug for themselves with all these choices at the end. Try as they might I don't think they can really dig themselves out and maintain the sense of connection between DA titles without resorting to some kind of canon.

[Swoo]

blademaster7 wrote...

Screenshot time!

Haha, we need more of this type of posting in the thread. I'd do it, but you people are Swoo Mod-Haters!

[Swoo]

A big thing is we tend to overcomplicate things compared to a video game staff when we look at the big picture we can see.

They might not even have to say who killed the Archdemon in a complicated manner. Since the main PC doesn't need a VA, they can just type in one of three names, and have the NPC responses be pretty much the same. Antivans may know the Demon died, but they won't know what happened on top of the Fort (or the battle ended on top of a Fort at all maybe) unless they are really clued into the world power game. And someone like that - like a Arl Eamon character - you just need to record a few extra lines for. It's extra work, but it's not massive because they won't have to do it for every other conversation, and they won't have to do it for every little choice you made in the game. What honestly needs being kept track of is quite small if you think of it.

I've said it a few times, the Dark Ritual is easy. We just heard Best Case Scenario, this is how we do it and you live. We never heard if there was a Plan B, we never heard what happened to the stolen Arch Demon blood from the Grey Warden Warehouse, and we don't know is she HAD to have our help to get what she wanted (other than the whole killing the Demon Dragon Thingy). I honestly think this could open up something HUGE, because as much as I want to reuinite with Morrigan, imagine the possibilities of the USac 'hardening' her after losing her only friend/love, and then running into her in a new game with a new PC (Since your DAO guy is dead and all). brrrr.

I think the argument that it's 'easier' is a horrible one people make. I don't buy cheap, I buy quality. I turn into a 10-year-old on XMas day counting down a BW game because of the standard they set. They've proven they can do difficult and hard, and they've turned out some amazing products in the past that stand head and shoulders above the competition because of their dedication to story, amazing characters you grow with, and just the sheer ridiculously awesome things they can pull out of their hats. And I don't mean this paragraph to you personally, I've just been seeing it on the forums a lot lately. 'Think of how hard it would be for them!'. Well, when I think of Bioware and what they have in front of them, I think 'How awesome it will be when they pull it off!' instead.

And after reading some of the previous replies, I think Gaider is sitting somewhere going 'Damn, I literally said NOTHING and still made them mad. I'm moving when the actual game details come out'. Heh. Unless there's no Morrigan or DA:O PC, then you DESERVE IT!

But as always, just my two cents. Not worth any more or less than yours.

If they ever want to mention last Blight and the situation in Ferelden, they'll need to say how there was a civil war at the time and probably also say who assumed the throne at Landsmeet.
That means cannonizing Alistair as either a king or exiled/executed.

Same for Morri. If they want to bring her back at some point then they'll need to decide if the dark ritual happened or not. Otherwise fans are going to be frustrated and demand to know if their decisions even mattered. Cannonizing that will also pretty much cannonize the fate of your Warden, ie. whether he survived the final battle or not.

They'll also need to decide who ended the Blight by killing he Archdemon and means cannonizing what happened to Alistair, Loghain or Warden.

The more I think about this the more I see how big a hole Bioware has dug for themselves with all these choices at the end. Try as they might I don't think they can really dig themselves out and maintain the sense of connection between DA titles without resorting to some kind of canon.

[Vicious]

In ME2 returning characters like Garrus and Tali weren't exactly the same people you knew in ME1.

They all went through their own crisis and trials between 2 games and came out changed as a result.



This kind of character development is what I'd love to see in DA and it can only be done by keeping those npcs between games.

i

You know, it's funny you mention this, because a huge complaint about ME2 ive noticed is what you are extolling: The massive freakout over what happened with Liara. Kaiden/Ashley's cameo.





Hell, I've seen many people railing against the Bioware for killing off Shepard in the introduction, screaming about how it made them lose control of the character. I simply cannot understand that train of thought, unless those complaining demand their character be an impervious mary sue and refuse to allow the writers to let events happen unless the players themselves dictate?? Ugh!





Morrigan will return. Bioware will pick a canon and run with it, they always have, and the dark ritual is a once in a lifetime never to happen again chance to put the soul of an AGELESS DRAGON into a HUMAN, in an age that is rather conveniently named the DRAGON AGE?





So... yeah. Unless DA2 is an unrelated story [which as I said i definetly see happening.] there is no canon to run with besides the Dark Ritual. The Ultimate Sacrifice is like Shepard dying in ME2. Brave, heroic, and completely unnecessary.

[Terra_Ex]

Vicious wrote...

In ME2 returning characters like Garrus and Tali weren't exactly the same people you knew in ME1.
They all went through their own crisis and trials between 2 games and came out changed as a result.

This kind of character development is what I'd love to see in DA and it can only be done by keeping those npcs between games.

i You know, it's funny you mention this, because a huge complaint about ME2 ive noticed is what you are extolling: The massive freakout over what happened with Liara. Kaiden/Ashley's cameo.

Well I believe Bioware's reasoning for
restricting them to purely cameo roles was so they couldn't die in the
suicide mission (ie: ensuring they can return in ME3 for the finale.)
They weren't "true" returning characters like Garrus, Tali, Edwin,
Imoen, Viconia, etc.

Vicious wrote...
Hell, I've seen many people railing against the Bioware for killing off Shepard in the introduction, screaming about how it made them lose control of the character. I simply cannot understand that train of thought, unless those complaining demand their character be an impervious mary sue and refuse to allow the writers to let events happen unless the players themselves dictate?? Ugh!

I loved Shepherd's death in the opening scenes - superb way to hook the player and explain away the drop to level 1 - crucially they immediately followed up by reviving him/her.

Swoo wrote...

And after reading some of the previous
replies, I think Gaider is sitting somewhere going 'Damn, I literally
said NOTHING and still made them mad. I'm moving when the actual game
details come out'. Heh. Unless there's no Morrigan or DA:O PC, then you
DESERVE IT!

heh, I agree with you here, Swoo [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie] Gaider's comments didn't point to any particular course that BW may be thinking of taking - he was very careful to split it directly down the middle, in fact.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 12 mai 2010 - 10:21 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Vicious wrote...
Hell, I've seen many people railing against the Bioware for killing off Shepard in the introduction, screaming about how it made them lose control of the character. I simply cannot understand that train of thought, unless those complaining demand their character be an impervious mary sue and refuse to allow the writers to let events happen unless the players themselves dictate?? Ugh!

I loved Shepherd's death in the opening scenes - superb way to hook the player and explain away the drop to level 1 - crucially they immediately followed up by reviving him/her.

Agree, I was glued to my TV from the outset.  Great way to start and great way to level Shepard back down.  Although, he was nowhere near as weak as he was at the start of ME1.  I wonder what Shep's start level in ME2 would have translated to in ME1.

[Master Shiori]

Vicious wrote...

In ME2 returning characters like Garrus and Tali weren't exactly the same people you knew in ME1.
They all went through their own crisis and trials between 2 games and came out changed as a result.

This kind of character development is what I'd love to see in DA and it can only be done by keeping those npcs between games.

i
You know, it's funny you mention this, because a huge complaint about ME2 ive noticed is what you are extolling: The massive freakout over what happened with Liara. Kaiden/Ashley's cameo.


Hell, I've seen many people railing against the Bioware for killing off Shepard in the introduction, screaming about how it made them lose control of the character. I simply cannot understand that train of thought, unless those complaining demand their character be an impervious mary sue and refuse to allow the writers to let events happen unless the players themselves dictate?? Ugh!


Morrigan will return. Bioware will pick a canon and run with it, they always have, and the dark ritual is a once in a lifetime never to happen again chance to put the soul of an AGELESS DRAGON into a HUMAN, in an age that is rather conveniently named the DRAGON AGE?


So... yeah. Unless DA2 is an unrelated story [which as I said i definetly see happening.] there is no canon to run with besides the Dark Ritual. The Ultimate Sacrifice is like Shepard dying in ME2. Brave, heroic, and completely unnecessary.

The way i see it, the problem with Ashley and Kaiden in ME2 is that you only meet them during a short cameo where Shep barely has the time to explain what happened to him, much less ask what they went through.
It's normal for the players to freak out by the change in their LI's when you can't even talk to them properly and find out what caused this change or get to understand it.

Garrus and Tali, by comparison, are your squadmates and therefore have the time to explain what happened to them in detail and make you understand how they changed and why.

Liara is a special case, since the change in her character might have been explained in the comicbook published by Dark Horse, which I haven't read yet so can't comment on what happened to her or if the change is understandable. It is surprising to say the least.

On the subject of Morrigan you're right. She will return at some point since Bioware confirmed that in 1 of their interviews before Awakening was released.
The thing that bothers us is will our Warden be reunited with her and find out what she planned and why she had to leave. This could be resolved with a new character, but to do so would really kill the emotional attachment we've created.

Ultimate sacrifice imo is a pretty lame thing to turn into canon. It may make you a hero of the day, but in the grand scheme of things you're no more special than a dozen Grey Wardens who slew the Archdemons before you.
Slaying an Archdemon and surviving to tell about it.. that is what cuts your character above the rest.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 12 mai 2010 - 10:30 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Vicious wrote...

In ME2 returning characters like Garrus and Tali weren't exactly the same people you knew in ME1.
They all went through their own crisis and trials between 2 games and came out changed as a result.

This kind of character development is what I'd love to see in DA and it can only be done by keeping those npcs between games.

i You know, it's funny you mention this, because a huge complaint about ME2 ive noticed is what you are extolling: The massive freakout over what happened with Liara. Kaiden/Ashley's cameo.

Well I believe Bioware's reasoning for
restricting them to purely cameo roles was so they couldn't die in the
suicide mission (ie: ensuring they can return in ME3 for the finale.)
They weren't "true" returning characters like Garrus, Tali, Edwin,
Imoen, Viconia, etc.

Yep, we'll see how it turns out if you cheated on your ME1 LI (which I'll bet nearly every male player did).  And somehow without talking to Ash or Liara throughout the game, in this last playthrough I completed last night (Wow, just a great end BTW-I never tire of it) my Shep ended up with Ashley as an LI.  I was trying for a celibate ME1 run, to import into my next ME2 run, but I somehow got "Biowared."

[Terra_Ex]

Well, my femshep stayed faithful, not for want of trying though but the same sex options just weren't there for her   Male shep eventually went with Jack right before the end of the game (when it became apparent nothing was gonna happen with Liara.)

lol, you managed to get suckered into an Ash romance - not a fan of her myself, seemed to me to be the definition of generic soldier. Ugh, I find it difficult to go back to ME1 now, the sequel's superior in every way, the first one just feels so sluggish now by comparison. Though I did get stuck within the scenery on several occasions in ME2 requiring me to reload a prior save, so BW should be more careful with those bounding volumes in the future.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 12 mai 2010 - 10:38 .

[Master Shiori]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Yep, we'll see how it turns out if you cheated on your ME1 LI (which I'll bet nearly every male player did).  And somehow without talking to Ash or Liara throughout the game, in this last playthrough I completed last night (Wow, just a great end BTW-I never tire of it) my Shep ended up with Ashley as an LI.  I was trying for a celibate ME1 run, to import into my next ME2 run, but I somehow got "Biowared."

I think it's because both Ashley and Liara start to show interest in you as soon as you get them on your team, so you actually need to shoot down the romance through dalogue rather then by ignoring them.

[Terastar]

Well Im thinking that for DAO2 you will start with a possible 3 to 4 orgins depending on your choices in DAO and Awakening.

1. You are a Gray Warden and they'll start you someplace and you will have a start mission and that could lead you to old and/or new friends.

2. You decided to just travel. You will be on some adventure and that will lead you to old and /or new friends.

3. You are King/Queen and are at the castle and news comes and you leave to put down some uprising and will meet some old and/or new friends.

4. You continued to serve the crown and are assigned some place and there you meet some old and/or new friends.

5. You are tracking down Morri and meet some old and/or new friends.



From these beginnings you will then be on your way to the new story of DAO2 whatever that story will be. Just a thought.

[tom2504]

Would be excellent if Bioware could pull something like that off @ Terastar.

[Vicious]

Could some of you fellas explain to me exactly what you want to do with Morrigan if your PCs find her?