16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...
The idea of an Ali/Morri romance makes my eyes bleed, but that's more because of the fact that it would be the biggest crack pairing in DA.

Well, there you have it.  My eyes are bleeding (more like my ears, as I said) and though I wish it weren't so, for now the romance is ruined for me.  Can't stomach it.  I'm hoping I get over it, since Alistair is my favorite character. 

Leli and Alistair have a lot in common!  And IIRC Leli even mentions that she thinks Alistair is attractive and that she would have made a move on him if it weren't for the fem PC, no?

I don't want to sidetrack too much, but I don't see them as having anything but superficial things in common.  I don't recall any such line in Leliana's dialogue (she does say something like that about Zevran).

Edit P.S.  Morrigan also asks about each of the Wardens, Alistair included, seeming very interested in their sexual performance.  Some people have taken that as proof she'd bed any one of them.  What say the Morrigan fans?  I honestly don't know.  She does seem to be able to separate sex and romance, at least early in the game.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mai 2010 - 09:22 .

[ejoslin]

Axekix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote...
I really don't understand the friction over the Ali/Leli thing. 

Pick the NPC that you can stand the least and imagine that person put together with Morrigan in an alternate story line?  Maybe that doesn't translate.  It just would have been better, in the midst of a silly DLC with no story content anyway, that they leave it alone.

Oh, so it's just the fact that you hate Leliana?  I don't really hate any of the party members, minus Velanna, so yeah that doesn't really work in my case.  The idea of an Ali/Morri romance makes my eyes bleed, but that's more because of the fact that it would be the biggest crack pairing in DA.

Leli and Alistair have a lot in common!  And IIRC Leli even mentions that she thinks Alistair is attractive and that she would have made a move on him if it weren't for the fem PC, no?

But of course she doesn't, not ever, make any comments to Alistair saying she thinks he's attractive, even if the FemWarden never romances Alistair and is in a full romance with Zevran.  That conversation comes off more as face-saving, not that Leliana really finds Alistair attractive. 

And I don't hate Leliana nor do I normally romance Alistair.  But that particular conversation is a bad one to base that there's an attraction there.  

Edit: In more than one dialog, Leliana does say she's attracted to Zevran, and in fact is not adverse to the idea of having sex with him in a couple of circumstances (both involving the warden as well).  Point being, she never says those things about Alistair.

ANYWAY, sorry about being so OT.  I didn't play the latest DLC but I have no interest in playing it either so it's not likely to happen.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 mai 2010 - 09:22 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Thats the thing for me as well- the other LI's got some measure of closure but for Morrigan she just bails on the Warden and the writers give you the chance to verbally say the PC will chase after her. Of course Awakening's end opens things back up for everyone basically, but at least with Morrigan there seems to be  a plot related reason  for her to return as well beyond just continuing the romance. Like Gaider mentioned in that thread mentioned above, I'm all for romances as they provide more depth to the characters, but I also love seeing returning characters as you get to see how they can evolve and change over time.

Unless of course BioWare thinks they can tell the rest of Morrigan's story and the OGB plot without the romance, but to me that would be more than a little disappointing to say the least. Only 24 days until E3 and hopefully some answers!

Don't get me wrong, I can accept a tragic story or romance just fine. In fact I had no problem with Viconia dying in BG2 even if I was sad to read about it. Her romance was a rocky ride but at least I had a choice in it and could fight for a somewhat happy ending (even if that happiness didn't last).

With Morrigan, however, I had no control at all once we reached the DR. That's not how a romance should be, since these things have a deep effect on players and can cause no end of frustration if the player feels like his powerless to affect the outcome in any way.
If the point of forcing such an ending was to bring about a reunion at a later point then I'm fine. But if I find out that my Warden will never find his lover or their child, despite Awakening basically setting him on that path, than my faith in Bioware and it's writers will be truly shaken. Who wants to experience a story where you can't at least effect the things that matter to you as a player?

Modifié par Master Shiori, 20 mai 2010 - 09:22 .

[Axekix]

Brockololly wrote...

Wow...really BioWare? Really? She was in it for the lulz? To the death? *bashes head into desk*

Morrigan: "Beauty and love are fleeting and meaningless.  Survival has meaning... Power  has meaning.  But none of that matters when there are truly epic lulz to be had!"

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote...
The idea of an
Ali/Morri romance makes my eyes bleed, but that's more because of
the fact that it would be the biggest crack pairing in DA.

Well,
there you have it.  My eyes are bleeding and though I wish it weren't
so, for now the romance is ruined for me.  Can't stomach it.  I'm hoping
I get over it, since Alistair is my favorite character.

I see.  I like Leliana's character so it doesn't bother me personally, but if it's as bad for you as Morri/Ali would be for me... well, you have my condolences.

ejoslin wrote...

But of course
she doesn't, not ever, make any comments to Alistair saying she thinks
he's attractive, even if the FemWarden never romances Alistair and is in
a full romance with Zevran.  That conversation comes off more as
face-saving, not that Leliana really finds Alistair attractive. 

And
I don't hate Leliana nor do I normally romance Alistair.  But that
particular conversation is a bad one to base that there's an attraction
there.  

Edit: In more than one dialog, Leliana does say she's
attracted to Zevran, and in fact is not adverse to the idea of having
sex with him in a couple of circumstances (both involving the warden as
well).  Point being, she never says those things about Alistair.

Hmm, I don't remember the circumstances around the Leli dialogue about Alistair, I've only gotten that convo once afaik, and I've never heard those lines about Zevran.  Can you give some details on it?

Modifié par Axekix, 20 mai 2010 - 09:27 .

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote... 

And this is the man I've been putting on the throne in my games????

You're assuming that the content in the DLC had any connection to a logical story line at all.  I am trying to give BW the benefit of the doubt, but it seems more like an April Fool's prank than anything.  Leliana in a Chantry robe, that still gets me.  Morrigan's codex likewise.  It's a farce.

Oh and yeah... the Morrigan codex is a sad, sad joke.  They could've put a little more effort into that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...
With Morrigan, however, I had no control at all once we reached the DR. That's not how a romance should be, since these things have a deep effect on players and can cause no end of frustration if the player feels like his powerless to affect the outcome in any way.

I disagree. The great tragedies are the ones where you are truly helpless and powerless in front of fate. And a romance shines with tragedy, imo.

What would be frustrating is them ignoring the romance completely and not giving it closure. But if the best kind of closure is one where you are truly powerless, then that's great tragedy material, that I wouldn't mind at all, but would welcome. 

Because I honestly don't see how the Morrigan romance can end really happily. It doesn't have to end with disaster, but we all know that settling with Morrigan and having kids while living in a cottage is just next to impossible. Morrigan is designed for greatness and to be extraordinary. So either the romance will end extraordinarily bad, or extraordinarily good (us ruling the universe, as unlikely as that sounds). 
But I do not see it being a normal happy ending nor should it be. 

All I want is closure. If they have to end it in tragedy, powerlessness and tears, then so be it.    

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

Morrigan: "Beauty and love are fleeting and meaningless.  Survival has meaning... Power  has meaning.  But none of that matters when there are truly epic lulz to be had!"

LOL  I have to believe that the codex got heavily edited, and the parts that made sense fell to the delete button.  Maybe someone wrote a gag codex and that got published as the real codex.  Oops.

I see.  I like Leliana's character so it doesn't bother me personally, but if it's as bad for you as Morri/Ali would be for me... well, you have my condolences.

Thank you for your condolences.  It may be a paradox, but my favorite characters are Morrigan and Alistair.  And Zevran.  Whereas Leliana and Wynne are the NPCs I love to hate, and Leliana the least interesting of the two.  So it feels like I'm forced to deal with her in some fashion whereas I usually prefer to park her in camp and ignore her.  Now it's like my PCs are her in some way, according to Bioware, and I hate them for it. 

I didn't say it was rational.

I blame it all on David Gaider, really.  Morrigan, Alistair and Zevran are his characters.  As far as fangirl protectiveness of Alistair, many Alistair fans will begrudge Morrigan the DR.  It is difficult to send Alistair off to it, but I've never resented Morrigan for it.  In fact, I believe I've said here that my PCs would generally get down on their knees and kiss her feet for what she does.  We'll see if, in the continuation we all hope for, that gratitude holds. 

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mai 2010 - 09:53 .

[ejoslin]

Axekix wrote...

Hmm, I don't remember the circumstances around the Leli dialogue about Alistair, I've only gotten that convo once afaik, and I've never heard those lines about Zevran.  Can you give some details on it?

Quote about Alistair is when you're romancing both Alistair and Leliana and she hits "care" (51+) and wants to know about how you feel about both relationships.  

Quotes with Zevran -- the foursome at the pearl is one.  If Zevran is at "adore" and Leliana is at "friendly" you can invite her to join and if she's hardened she calls the idea "interesting" and says she will have to think about it.  The conversation she has with a femwarden when she hits "care" and the warden is having sex with Zevran, she also calls him attractive.

It's pretty irrelevant to the whole DLC, though.  It was just that using that particular conversation about Alistair doesn't lend too much credence to saying Leliana and Alistair were attracted to each other and Leliana didn't make a move because of Alistair and the Warden's romance. 

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Morrigan: "Beauty and love are fleeting and meaningless.  Survival has meaning... Power  has meaning.  But none of that matters when there are truly epic lulz to be had!"

LOL  I have to believe that the codex got heavily edited, and the parts that made sense fell to the delete button.  Maybe someone wrote a gag codex and that got published as the real codex.  Oops.

I see.  I like Leliana's character so it doesn't bother me personally, but if it's as bad for you as Morri/Ali would be for me... well, you have my condolences.

Thank you for your condolences.  It may be a paradox, but my favorite characters are Morrigan and Alistair.  And Zevran.  Whereas Leliana and Wynne are the NPCs I love to hate, and Leliana the least interesting of the two.  So it feels like I'm forced to deal with her in some fashion whereas I usually prefer to park her in camp and ignore her.  Now it's like my PCs are her in some way, according to Bioware, and I hate them for it. 

I didn't say it was rational.

I blame it all on David Gaider, really.  Morrigan, Alistair and Zevran are his characters.  As far as fangirl protectiveness of Alistair, many Alistair fans will begrudge Morrigan the DR.  It is difficult to send Alistair off to it, but I've never resented Morrigan for it.  In fact, I believe I've said here that my PCs would generally get down on their knees and kiss her feet for what she does.  We'll see if, in the continuation we all hope for, whether that gratitude holds. 

Ooooh I see... I think.  So Bioware making Alistair interested in Leliana means she's the sort of girl that appeals to his character, so the Alistair romancers now feel like Leliana's attributes are imposed on their PCs in a backwards sort of way?  Or am I off in left field?  I find this entire situation a lot more fascinating than I probably should

I do agree on the DR continuation though!  Gaider's comments upthread leave me less hopeful than before... but I really want to see some closure there before we move on to the next generation of DA chars.

[Axekix]

ejoslin wrote...

It's pretty irrelevant to the whole DLC, though.  It was just that using that particular conversation about Alistair doesn't lend too much credence to saying Leliana and Alistair were attracted to each other and Leliana didn't make a move because of Alistair and the Warden's romance. 

Hmm, why not?  She says something like "I would've made my move if you hadn't."  I don't see too many ways to interpret that personally.  They have some mildly flirty party banter too.

I know I got a convo late in the game where Alistair called Leliana "hot" though I didn't pay much attention to it at the time.  I may actually be able to go back and screenshot it though.

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

Ooooh I see... I think.  So Bioware making Alistair interested in Leliana means she's the sort of girl that appeals to his character, so the Alistair romancers now feel like Leliana's attributes are imposed on their PCs in a backwards sort of way?  Or am I off in left field?  I find this entire situation a lot more fascinating than I probably should

I think you've got it.  Though I speak only for myself.

I do agree on the DR continuation though!  Gaider's comments upthread leave me less hopeful than before... but I really want to see some closure there before we move on to the next generation of DA chars.

They do?  I guess so, because he's saying he would rather do it fully than in incomplete or half-assed form, but I agree with him there.  But the point is well taken that the other LIs had some form of closure whereas for Morrigan, to paraphrase the last line of The Calling:  It doesn't feel like an end, but a beginning.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mai 2010 - 09:58 .

[SurelyForth]

Axekix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It's pretty irrelevant to the whole DLC, though.  It was just that using that particular conversation about Alistair doesn't lend too much credence to saying Leliana and Alistair were attracted to each other and Leliana didn't make a move because of Alistair and the Warden's romance. 

Hmm, why not?  She says something like "I would've made my move if you hadn't."  I don't see too many ways to interpret that personally.  They have some mildly flirty party banter too.

I know I got a convo late in the game where Alistair called Leliana "hot" though I didn't pay much attention to it at the time.  I may actually be able to go back and screenshot it though.

When she talks about making a move on Alistair, she's deflecting because she has feelings for the PC. She's basically trying to gauge the PC's interest in Alistair by pretending to be interested in him herself. She has no real designs on him.

And Alistair says the idea of the female PC and Leliana together is hot, not Leliana herself. 

[Brockololly]

Axekix wrote...
Oh and yeah... the Morrigan codex is a sad, sad joke.  They could've put a little more effort into that.

From all the codex entries I've read from DC, most of them seem like they were written by darkspawn. Here I'll write a Morrigan codex entry!
" MOrrigan iz a gurl. She is purdy and haz boobies. She iz a meanie and is in it 4 da LULZ 4 lyfe. Da  eNd."

Ta Da! Hire me as a writer BioWare!<_<

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Idisagree. The great tragedies are the ones where you are truly helplessand powerless in front of fate. And a romance shines with tragedy, imo.


What would be frustrating is them ignoring the romance completely and not giving it closure. But if the best kind of closure is one where you are truly powerless, then that's great tragedy material, that I wouldn't mind at all, but would welcome. 

BecauseI honestly don't see how the Morrigan romance can end really happily. It doesn't have to end with disaster, but we all know that settling withMorrigan and having kids while living in a cottage is just next to impossible. Morrigan is designed for greatness and to be extraordinary. So either the romance will end extraordinarily bad, or extraordinarily good (us ruling the universe, as unlikely as that sounds). 
But I do not see it being a normal happy ending nor should it be. 

All I want is closure. If they have to end it in tragedy,powerlessness and tears, then so be it.    

Well for me, the 1st priority is just some sort of adequate closure with Morrigan and the romancing Warden. Hopefuly in the form of playing as the Warden again and not just some lame codex entry or epilogue slide that tells us what happened.

But secondarily, a tragic romance can be truly great and emotionally engaging, no doubt. My issue with taking that approach is all in how its done within the context of an RPG where player choice and consequences are given a great deal of importance, not a passive medium like a book or movie. Maybe thats kind of the point, that despite all your actions its just going to end a certain way. But if BioWare goes that route they need to flesh it out better than their other attempt at wielding the Plot Hammer with the DR.

I don't think Morrigan's romance has to necessarily end up at one extreme or the other but what do I know. I'd just like it to at least be possible to have a "happy" ending or "tragic" ending as possibilities but not necessarily set in stone. I mean it seems like it boils down to do you believe in fate and destiny being set in stone and unavoidable (per the writers) or should your actions in the game have logical consequences that change based on your actions?

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 mai 2010 - 10:07 .

[Master Shiori]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
With Morrigan, however, I had no control at all once we reached the DR. That's not how a romance should be, since these things have a deep effect on players and can cause no end of frustration if the player feels like his powerless to affect the outcome in any way.

I disagree. The great tragedies are the ones where you are truly helpless and powerless in front of fate. And a romance shines with tragedy, imo.

What would be frustrating is them ignoring the romance completely and not giving it closure. But if the best kind of closure is one where you are truly powerless, then that's great tragedy material, that I wouldn't mind at all, but would welcome. 

Because I honestly don't see how the Morrigan romance can end really happily. It doesn't have to end with disaster, but we all know that settling with Morrigan and having kids while living in a cottage is just next to impossible. Morrigan is designed for greatness and to be extraordinary. So either the romance will end extraordinarily bad, or extraordinarily good (us ruling the universe, as unlikely as that sounds). 
But I do not see it being a normal happy ending nor should it be. 

All I want is closure. If they have to end it in tragedy, powerlessness and tears, then so be it.    

Well Knight, I'd argue that what makes Morrigan's romance tragic is the fact that she has a mission that's more important than staying with the man she loves. As long as that mission exists there will never be a happy ending to the romance. Once her mission is done I'd imagine she would be free to do what she wants, provided she is not dead or something prevents her from choosing her own path.
Morrigan even tells you during her farewell speech that had this been a different time and the 2 of you different people that she would do more for you than she already has, so I'll take that as meaning that she isn't opposed to the idea of a future besides the Warden.

And I agree with you about any closure being fine, but my point was that the DR and Morrigan leaving doesn't count s closure in my eyes. Her dying, however, would.

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

They do?  I guess so, because he's saying he would rather do it fully than in incomplete or half-assed form, but I agree with him there.  But the point is well taken that the other LIs had some form of closure whereas for Morrigan, to paraphrase the last line of The Calling:  It doesn't feel like an end, but a beginning.

I hope so.  WTB all Morrigan E3 trailer! *crosses fingers*

SurelyForth wrote...

When she talks about making a move on
Alistair, she's deflecting because she has feelings for the PC. She's
basically trying to gauge the PC's interest in Alistair by pretending to
be interested in him herself. She has no real designs on him.

And
Alistair says the idea of the female PC and Leliana together is hot,
not Leliana herself. 

Ahhh, thanks for the context!  I suppose you're right.  I'm certainly no Alistair romance expert at any rate.

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

From all the codex entries I've read from DC, most of them seem like they were written by darkspawn. Here I'll write a Morrigan codex entry!
" MOrrigan iz a gurl. She is purdy and haz boobies. She iz a meanie and is in it 4 da LULZ 4 lyfe. Da  eNd."

LOL!  I'm not sure which I would rather hear:  That the clusterfark made sense to someone at Bioware, or that it was all a big practical joke on the player base.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...
Morrigan even tells you during her farewell speech that had this been a different time and the 2 of you different people that she would do more for you than she already has, so I'll take that as meaning that she isn't opposed to the idea of a future besides the Warden.

I interpretted this differently.
She is admitting that she can never give the Warden what she would have given him if they had different lives. She isn't opposed to the idea, but knows it will never happen.

Her mission won't end in the fashion that will allow her to settle down. There is something in store for Morrigan and it's not going to be her settling down, imo.

@ Brockolly. Choices and consequences are all nice, but sometimes, things must be out of our hands. I do not like the idea of the PC being like a god, capable of changing everything. When I play RPGs, I want to be immersed. Keeping some choices out of our hands is realistic.
Unless it's very crappy, a plotline involving Morrigan keeping us mostly powerless would not be disastrous for me.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 mai 2010 - 10:18 .

[Swoo]

Brockololly wrote...

But secondarily, a tragic romance can be truly great and emotionally engaging, no doubt. My issue with taking that approach is all in how its done within the context of an RPG where player choice and consequences are given a great deal of importance, not a passive medium like a book or movie. Maybe thats kind of the point, that despite all your actions its just going to end a certain way. But if BioWare goes that route they need to flesh it out better than their other attempt at wielding the Plot Hammer with the DR.

I don't think Morrigan's romance has to necessarily end up at one extreme or the other but what do I know. I'd just like it to at least be possible to have a "happy" ending or "tragic" ending as possibilities but not necessarily set in stone. I mean it seems like it boils down to do you believe in fate and destiny being set in stone and unavoidable (per the writers) or should your actions in the game have logical consequences that change based on your actions?

Some measure of control.

Now, I know that can be read wrong, but so much of the problem stems from the fact that you, me, and all the others who followed this plot-thread suddenly found themselves thrown into a corner out of left field, with absolutely no true give or take, nor alterations based on previous experiences, thrust upon us.

It could go good, it could go bad, and I'll be fine with either of them if I had a choice in it, an actual say. If something is forced on you and you are given choices, but at the end of the day all choices are swept under the rug to get you to Point Z where the writers want you, then that's infinitely worse than never having any choices at all.  And you can have a happy ending without having a good ending, and vice versa. Look at the whole Qel-Droma/Sunrider tale from Knights of the Old Republic, it was a good ending yet very bittersweet. If it HAD to end dark, at least something like that gave true closure.

I haven't played any Fallout DLC. It's really that good? I liked FO3, but when it ended I found myself wanting to load up FO2 and go all Mafioso in Salvatore's more than I wanted to play more FO3.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

Well Knight, I'd argue that what makes Morrigan's romance tragic is the fact that she has a mission that's more important than staying with the man she loves. As long as that mission exists there will never be a happy ending to the romance. Once her mission is done I'd imagine she would be free to do what she wants, provided she is not dead or something prevents her from choosing her own path.
Morrigan even tells you during her farewell speech that had this been a different time and the 2 of you different people that she would do more for you than she already has, so I'll take that as meaning that she isn't opposed to the idea of a future besides the Warden.

And I agree with you about any closure being fine, but my point was that the DR and Morrigan leaving doesn't count s closure in my eyes. Her dying, however, would.

Again, I think where ever Morrigan's story goes in the future, whether it sits well with me personally will depend on the details. One of the reasons I loathe the DR scene is the fact that we're absolutely clueless about what she has planned and just have to accept or decline based on extraordinarily limited information. I know Gaider has mentioned he dislikes "gotcha!" moments in gaming, but given what we know right now, I can't help but feel like the DR is being set up as a "gotcha!" moment since we're so limited in trying to divulge what Morrigan's real motivations are. Sure the whole notion of the DR has ominous overtones, but thats about it.

The devil is in the details with something like the DR and Morrigan's plan. In my current cynical state of mind, I can imagine the reunion playing out like this:
-------------------------------------------------------------
*The WARDEN, after months of trudging through the brutal wilds of Thedas stumbles upon a small, decrepit hut in the Frostback Mountains. Trudging through deep snow and a raging blizzard, he raises his weary arm opening the door and shambles through the doorway to find MORRIGAN standing in front of a warm fire. Morrigan turns around to face the intruder, a look of surprise on her face:

Warden: Morrigan! Why did you leave me after the battle? (VO note: exasperated, barely able to stand)
Morrigan:  ..... I did it 4 teh LULZ! (VO note: HUR DUR chuckling a plenty!)




*facepalm* Prove me wrong BioWare!

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 mai 2010 - 10:48 .

[blademaster7]

Brockololly wrote...
From all the codex entries I've read from DC, most of them seem like they were written by darkspawn. Here I'll write a Morrigan codex entry!
" MOrrigan iz a gurl. She is purdy and haz boobies. She iz a meanie and is in it 4 da LULZ 4 lyfe. Da  eNd."

Ta Da! Hire me as a writer BioWare!<_<

LOL. This is full of win.

I also agree with the rest of your post(didn't quote because it will make a mess). I would like the storyline and romance to have a decent closure based on your decisions, without having to witness some predetermined canon storyline(Plot hammer of doom!).

I'm not saying that it needs to end in a "happily ever after" mood if your character keeps pushing his luck with the romance. It could very well be the opposite and love ends up destroying both of them.

The presentation of the dark ritual destroyed the romance in my eyes for reasons that I will not bother explain for the 1000 time..

Of course the romace is still redeemable, provided they don't just drop the Warden and give us a "default" Morrigan to suit all styles.

[blademaster7]

Of course she was in it for the lulz. Look at that evil face... argh!

[KnightofPhoenix]

blademaster7 wrote...

*speechless*

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

*speechless*

I'm not knocking Morrigan or anything, but that is a very weird expression she has on her face.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's a very sexy expression on her face. Never have the words badass and sexy been so perfectly combined.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Kryyptehk wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

*speechless*

I'm not knocking Morrigan or anything, but that is a very weird expression she has on her face.

Not really. More like that cat that just ate your $500 exotic bird and is  hoping you'll conront her about it.