126 réponses à ce sujet

[attackfighter]

Tiskenburdle wrote...

Azrailx: I'm with you on the autoleveling... Obscuro's Oblivion Overhaul was an essential mod in my mind... As vanilla flavor's stand, I too have to agree that Morrowind was superior to Oblivion.

Attackfighter:
The copy-pasted dungeons were a side effect of the immense world.. While Dragon Age may be epic in both length of play and quality of cinematics.. The size of the world is much much much smaller... Again, that's not to say Dragon Age is inferior because of it.. The world that does exist has far more detail and interactive capability. But all this is because they exist in two different genre's..

It is actually possible to compare two completely different things.. But first you have to create a measuring scale... How important is "World Size", How important are "Cinematics"..... The difficulty here is that people's opinion's differ, and therefor although it is possible to say I prefer Dragon Age to Oblivion. To do so is the equivalent of saying I prefer the qualities inherent in Story driven games more than those in Sandbox style games. But regardless it's a matter of personal preference, not objective fact.

I actually agree with most that Vanilla Oblivion is in fact a bit boring.. In my opinion the best part about a sandbox game though, is in fact what most people seem to dislike about it; it's just a world. You can expand upon it infinitely with mod's... You could say that the same is true of Dragon Age, and to some degree it is.. But the amount of world that you can expand upon/create objects within is much smaller in Dragon Age because far more of their resources went towards the story/cinematics/interactions.

I love Dragon Age, it's an awesome game.. But in my opinion, so is oblivion.. Everyone's allowed their own opinion. I just don't believe it's completely fair to compare the two side by side without taking into consideration one's own preference for a particular style.

Compare it to other games of it's genre. Oblivion comes up short compared to Morrowind, Gothic 3, etc. DAO, on the other hand, comes up above average (or atleast I susepct it does - again, I've yet to play it).

Also, like I've said before, the only thing propping Oblivion up is the size of it's world. Looking at this abjectively, you can't give it much credit, since the world is bland and randomely generated (except for the cities).

The modding community surrounding Oblivion is decent, however other games like Civ4 have better modding communities, and unlike Oblivion, the source material is actually good. I can't give the game any kudos for that.

[danielkx]

Bethesda is one of the worst developers around. When I look at Oblivion and Fallout 3, all I see is, Bethesda made a game, but they had no idea how to put it all together in a coherent way. So they decided to just use randomly generated levels, put some content in those randomly generated levels, clump it all together and say, "Here, figure out how to play this because we sure as hell couldn't figure out how to make it."

Yes, there were a few solid quests here and there in oblivion, but the game as a whole was just thrown together. There is no direction in the game because where would that direction lead to? An incredibly bland and uninteresting main story that nobody cares about.

So because of that, Bethesda just throws in a bunch of other side content, and swirls it around and presents it to gamers as a game where you create your own journey and adventure where you could be anything you want. You could be a merchant, or hunter or whatever. Oh but there is a catch. Nobody in the game world will recognize you as this because we just tossed the content in there without knowing how to connect any of it at all.

As I said, one of the worst developers around.

/rant.

Modifié par danielkx, 08 novembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[Edner132435]

Hmm, just because this game is good doesn't mean oblivion was bad. It was lacking in several areas, but I found it very enjoyable. They are very different games, Oblivion was more of an action rpg and DA is a classic rpg. They are both good in their own ways.

[danielkx]

Edner132435 wrote...

Hmm, just because this game is good doesn't mean oblivion was bad. It was lacking in several areas, but I found it very enjoyable. They are very different games, Oblivion was more of an action rpg and DA is a classic rpg. They are both good in their own ways.

In what way was Oblivion truly "good"?

Allowing you to explore the game world in any way you want without having to worry about any consequences at all when entering different areas? This is good? IMO this is terriblel. Many other people agree that the level scaling is horrid in Oblivion, which is why Obscuro's mode or whatever it is called, is probably the most popular mod.

One of the responses I dislike most from fans of Oblivion is that, the game is really good with all the right mods. This to me is one of the worst arguments around. This means that Oblivion itself isn't actually a good game. It is the gamers that pick up the slack for a terrible developer that makes the game playable. If a game has to be heavily modded by the community in order for it to be good, then the game itself isn't good.

I know you specifically didn't say this, but lots of people do, and it is one of the worst arguments around.

[Edner132435]

Key phrase there being "IMO this is terrible." I should have mentioned that I have oblivion modded the crap out. Vanilla was pretty bad, I'll give you that. What it has become through mods is great in my opinion.

[Edner132435]

Good points though about fans picking up the slack tho

[danielkx]

Edner132435 wrote...

Good points though about fans picking up the slack tho

Oblivion is one of the most heavily modded games ever. NWN was modded in a different way. People were making their own modules and adventures. With Oblivion, lots of people were modding it to fix the game make the actual game itself better, and not to simply make their own adventures and journeys.

I am hoping that DA modders make some fun mods to play. I am on my first plathrough, somewhere around 33 hours in and still have more than half the game to go, so I have a ways to go before I look at mods. But I am hoping that the talented community shows their skills with the toolset and game world.

[Mike2640]

I enjoyed Oblivion, modded or otherwise (Though, naturally I enjoyed it more modded). I spent more time playing that game than I can remember. These to factors lead me to the conclusion that it is a good game, IMO. That said, I dont think it is a very good RPG, since really all it had was a stat system and very bland dialogue and character development. Lackluster RPG, but a good game none the less.

Although I have to say DA:O is a much better designed game and clearly had more work put into creating it.

[Edner132435]

That was one thing i really liked about the nwn modders, the individual adventures separate from the game. Hopefully we get some great ones for DA.

[TheRoadYetWalked]

Maybe it's just all my years haunting the NWN forums, but I thought people in the Bioware community knew better than to bring Oblivion up in the Bioware forums, in general. Bad things happen. Nothing good can come from this! =P

[Rafilialindal]

Interesting conversation here. I bought oblivion when it came out (on the pc). And I enjoyed it a great deal, without any mods. Although coming from Morrowind, the leveling system drove me up the friggen wall, I got used to it.



I recently bought it again, and discovered the mod community that has grown up around the game. I've got about 120 odd mods on it now, and its almost a completely different game. That doesn't mean the original was a bad game, I think they did the best they could with the technology and time limits they had. And I think all this talk about Bethesda being a terrible developer is pretty ridiculous..just considering the level of detail and variety of game experiences alone, not to mention the incredible graphics oblivion is still capable of, among many other things, they're the reason I love computer games.

[welcomehome160]

I thought Oblivion was a LOT of fun to play! Although there were definitely major shortcomings such as the leveling system, as well as the loot. Looking back both of those features were pretty terrible...



I do think Dragon Age absolutely destroys it, however. DA is incredibly polished, and has such an amazing storyline! I have absolutely fallen in love with it. It is the best video game I have played since BG2, which is my all-time favorite. Thank you Bioware!!!



David Gaider, you are never allowed to retire.

[The Blue bird]

danielkx wrote...
Bethesda is one of the worst developers around.
.

Really? so being the No. 11 Game developer ON THE PLANET (through annual revenue) makes them bad eh? Good to know, guess Rockstar and Nintendo suck too.

[Default137]

Congratulations, you made a Bethseda/Oblivion/Fallout 3 hate thread in a forum full of people who erratically hate those three things above all else, for little to no reason at all most times, your parents must be -so- proud of you.

Thing is, they are both great games, they are also very DIFFERENT games, each one is very good at what it is focused on being, Dragon Age is an AMAZING linear storydriven game, the characters draw you in, the world you see is interesting, and leaves you wanting more, and the combat is exciting and difficult. But its a tiny world, and exploration is relatively small, DLC will eventually be added to add onto this, but overall, its go to City A, to Dock B, to Tower D, and there is no land in between, this is not really a BAD thing, its just how it is.

Fallout and Oblivion on the other hand are very different, they don't focus on the story, and to be honest, thats probably a good thing, most of the main quests in Bethseda games are flat, or very cliche( other then Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood, which were AMAAAAAAZING ), and are only interesting in seeing how they affect the world as a whole, but they are AMAZING at designing a world that feels realistic, that you can just explore and explore and explore, go hack and slash up some dungeon, go visit a town that you never knew existed, and find a bunch of new quests there to do, that will take you days if not weeks to finish all of them.

Then add in the modding community, and well, Oblivion could feasibly never end until the next game, same with Fallout 3, people just keep making new quest hubs, and new weapons, and new armor, and new voice files, and new everything really, whatever you want, you can find and put into Oblivion or Fallout, and thats the great thing about them.

You know what I'd really like to see one day?

Bioware and Bethseda getting together to make an RPG, Bethseda works on the worldmaking, building a giant world for us to explore, while Bioware writes the quests, gets the voiceactors, and in general sets all that up.

Could you imagine if you could explore all of Fereldan right now? I mean, beyond just the 7 hotspots we have? If you could go run around, maybe go back to the Kocari Wilds, scout out the darkspawn, look for Fergus, go back to Ostagar, and look at the battlefield, go run around Denerim, seeing the farmlands, forests and all that for yourself, and helping clear them out, that would just be TONS of fun.

Modifié par Default137, 08 novembre 2009 - 08:52 .

[Forwen]

Morrowind was one of the best games ever made. Oblivion was good, but it slaughtered the single main strongest point of Morrowind, hardcore exploration, with map pointers and instaportation.

[Default137]

Forwen wrote...

Morrowind was one of the best games ever made. Oblivion was good, but it slaughtered the single main strongest point of Morrowind, hardcore exploration, with map pointers and instaportation.

Eh, thats really up to the player to use those though.

I mean, I used them from time to time, when its 2 am in the morning, and you just finally finished that  Thieves Guild quest that had you up working on it, you didn't want to run all the way back, you wanted to just be there NOW, and it gave that option, I think the problem was, they were just to easy to use, they really should have added a monetary cost or something.

I really liked the exploration bit, my first runthrough, I got bored quickly due to teleport, so I kinda stopped playing the game shortly after the Abyss Gates started appearing, when I finally came back 2-3 months later, I promised myself to never use them unless needbe, and walked from town to town trying to find quests, it was so amazing finally reaching a city, each of which was so different from each other, and helping people out, figuring out the local ways, it really felt like a whole new culture, and section of the world existed there.

Like, what was that town in the south eastern part of the map? Elven like buildings, and the people HATED anything abhuman, that place was great, since I played a Khajit, you could feel the racial hatred, and it just had such a different feel from any of the other villages. And it was just so exciting going down to those towns, as you spent so much time up in the Imperial City.

Really, the only problem these games had was that they had to MUCH hack and slash dungeon crawl, and some of it got you nothing at all, I loved finding a cave that had a mini quest in side, like the lich, or really any of them, even the small ones that are not really quests, all of them were fun, but they got covered up by so many useless caves that had NOTHING in them, that I just stopped checking everything I passed.

Modifié par Default137, 08 novembre 2009 - 09:04 .

[The Blue bird]

@ Defaul137 I think you're thinking of Leyawiin

[ToJKa1]

BioWare and Bethesda make quite different style of RPGs. BioWare's games are more or less linear that follow a storyline, Bethesda's are more open "make your own experience" type of games. BioWare's games have no where near the open world aspect of Bethesda's games, and Bethesda's stories cannot even be mentioned in the same sentence as BioWare's.

Personally, i like and play both developer's games.

Modifié par ToJKa1, 08 novembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[addiction21]

The Blue bird wrote...

danielkx wrote...
Bethesda is one of the worst developers around.
.

Really? so being the No. 11 Game developer ON THE PLANET (through annual revenue) makes them bad eh? Good to know, guess Rockstar and Nintendo suck too.

McDonalds sells the most hamburgers in the world. Does that mean they make a good hamburger?

[Horace the Well Meaning Hybrid]

I liked Oblivion. Just because Dragon Age is a better game (in my opinion) doesn't change the fact that, at the time, I enjoyed playing Oblivion.

[Seraosha]

I spent 200 hours on Oblivion and I loved every second. It is up to you to craft your own journey in that game. Your character felt a lot more personal to you. For instance, I couldn't care less about the weight of destiny placed upon me at the start of the game, I didn't buy into any of it and it wasn't until a lot later that I finally went to meet with the son of the Emperor. I love that I had the choice to do that even if Oblivion gates started swallowing up the lands.

I actually had no problem with playing Oblivion vanilla and problems like fast-travel simply fall away. It's there if that's the way you want to play it, but I had a lot more fun exploring the wilds, mainly on foot too, I never could keep track of my damn horses. And there were quite a few hidden gems and wonderful quests hidden away there. I'm also afraid that I don't see the repetition of the dungeons, but maybe that's because I so thoroughly enjoyed the Sneaking and Thieving aspect of Oblivion.

Some of the lore in Oblivion is amazing. I remember there was a particular series of books littered around that had some awesome histories and stories and although I never found a full set, I always had my eye out for the next tome. Not a quest, just simply something I enjoyed doing. The fact that I never managed it, I think says everything about Oblivion. It's not a tick all the boxes, become the super hero kind of game. You're just a single small part of this massive living, breathing world.

To compare Oblivion directly to Dragon Age seems silly to me. It's a whole different kettle of fish. Bethesda and Bioware offer up very different types of gameplay and storytelling. It's not really a fair comparison. I'm thoroughly enjoying Dragon Age so far, but it's incredibly different. Whatever I do, I'm always going to be dragged through the linear narrative in Dragon Age one way or the other in these structured areas that lead me narrowly to my goal.

I respect that Oblivion's take on things isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it's a shame people can't enjoy both types of game.

[adembroski11]

Oblivion's strength was immersion... which, admittedly, came primarily from a first person perspective and the need to walk everywhere... which you also got from Morrowind, a superior game in every way but graphics.



Personally, the thing that brings me back to Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 (haven't played the first TES) is the fact that I see everything through my character's eyes. This has become a very big deal to me due to that series of games. First person perspective in a role playing game, to me, is something that should have been done long ago.



By the same token, I can see people's complaints about Oblivion and, for the most part, I agree. The system is bland, there are no tactics to speak of, and because everything scales its level to you, leveling doesn't mean anything anyways, the characters are dull and uninspired, and a fairly well conceived hook leads into a very dull storyline. This, thankfully, is less true of Morrowind.



I am not willing to crown Dragon Age the greatest RPG of all time, but it's one of the best of it's kind (for the record, I consider the "Japanese RPG" to be of an entirely different genre and, in fact, should be called something other than RPG, as I have yet to encounter one where you in fact have any meaningful control over the "Role" of the character... maybe we should call them Strategic Character Design Games?).



Great Western RPGs come in two varieties: Story Driven and Sand Box. Each has a little of both (DA isn't a completely open world like Oblivion, but for the most part you can do as you please. Oblivion's story isn't as imposing or feel as urgent as DA's, but it's there).



It would be really interesting to see Bethesda create a world and let Bioware populate it. That'd be an interesting game.

[dyscr33t]

I've logged 42 hours so far and I'm not even close to finished. Just finished saving that kid from the demon. I've been reading a lot of the lore and codex in order to get a good backstory on the game. I like having a good story to keep me going through.

[madskillet]

Tiskenburdle wrote...


Oblivion is a Simulation style RPG... I spent countless hours protecting my forest grove from bandits, while occasionally venturing off to complete a quest.. I simply can't do that in Dragon Age. Does that make Dragon Age inferior?

lol, WHAT? how is that fun at all? what was the point? you know an rpg is bad when you have to pretend like that.

Modifié par madskillet, 08 novembre 2009 - 12:38 .