1316 réponses à ce sujet

[tmelange]

Going to do one more playthrough and figured I'd ask for some feedback on the Architect storyline, since I can't seem to find a good reason in my own mind to spare him.

So just curious--who spared the Architect and why?

Personally, I didn't think it was a rational option under any circumstances for humanity to come to any sort of accord with the darkspawn or the Architect. It was clear to me that the Architect's interference led to the darkspawn not retreating upon the death of the old god, and resulted in continued human devastation, the deaths of thousands, and of dozens of wardens. It seemed clear to me that the darkspawn are very like vampires, parasitical and requiring humans for sustainence, breeding and acclimation, and as a result, an accord would be...untenable in fact. Thus, the argument that the darkspawn are somehow enslaved to the song of the old gods, and need to be freed (the slavery hook) so they can evolve, and the notion that the warden blood needed to free the darkspawn is analogous to the grey warden ritual wasn't compelling. 

I think the one thing they missed out on, however, was having the captured wardens being kept alive to provide this massive amount of blood they would need to convert darkspawn-dom. A dead warden supplies only a finite amount of blood. It would have been interesting to effect this rescue, and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

Anyway, what were you thinking when you spared the Architect?

Modifié par tmelange, 19 mars 2010 - 10:52 .

[Magical Might]

I was thinking "I wonder what'll happen..." and "he seems like a nice guy..."

Unfortunately I was very tired at the time, and forgot about the fact that he kidnapped Velanna's sister... and other Wardens, and such.

I just know that in DA2 the result from that is going to suck. XD

[Vicious]

I didn't believe a word he said about emancipating the Darkspawn. I was willing to give it a fair shake since I spared his Messenger [who turned out to be an alright guy] but he didn't bother trying to explain any of his past actions, the fate of Velanna's sister who was mysteriously and conspicuoulsy absent, or why he had to 'experiment' on Wardens when he said all he needed was their blood.

I'll reload and see what happens when you spare him, but my first playthrough I just couldn't... and ALL my companions were against it, especially Justice.

In the long run I doubt it'll make a difference. Someone, Velanna's sister for instance, or one of the Darkspawn he freed and didn't show up in the final battle - will pick up where The Architect left off.

Anyone explain to me what he promised Utha?

Modifié par Vicious, 19 mars 2010 - 11:02 .

[Bfler]

There isn't a special ending when you let him alive. He disappears and that is all.

[tmelange]

Magical Might wrote...

I was thinking "I wonder what'll happen..." and "he seems like a nice guy..."
Unfortunately I was very tired at the time, and forgot about the fact that he kidnapped Velanna's sister... and other Wardens, and such.
I just know that in DA2 the result from that is going to suck. XD

I think I might have considered sparing him if the story had presented some path for darkspawn and humans to live peacefully together. The question of what the intelligent darkspawn would want was never answered. What would their agenda be? A land and nation of darkspawn? How would they eat and live and procreate when not doing so off of humans? Where would the sense be in enabling the intelligent design of those that can not live peacefully with humans as a matter of nature? 

The plot reminded me of the ME Rachni situation but it lacked the key issue that the Rachni Queen wanted to find a world separate from humans to live in peace, AND the underlying premise that the Rachni aren't naturally antagonistic to others but for the corruption of their natural order.

I thought, perhaps, I had missed some key dialogue that explained how a human could think that intelligent darkspawn would be at all feasible. LOL 

Modifié par tmelange, 20 mars 2010 - 12:23 .

[Magical Might]

Ah, right, the ending screen if you spare him says that...

"Many Wardens wer appalled that you made a deal with him..., the deep roads were safer than they had been in a very long time..., Warden's leave it in the Maker's hands, now, as to what will happen.

[Daerog]

I believed the Architect completely. I read The Calling and understand its point of view and how it has trouble with dealing with other species. It had no real reason to lie, but perhaps leave info out.

He still dies in my story, as well as the messenger. My Warden is a good guy, but ending the blight (not just the Blights, but the blight as well) is a priority. Sorry inteligent darkspawn, you can now think for yourself, so I'm a bit sad to kill you, but I see no hope of true coexistence and the blight, which you carry, is a threat to all. Eventually the Grey Wardens will need to be removed after the darkspawn and Archdemons.

[SDNcN]

tmelange wrote...

Going to do one more playthrough and figured I'd ask for some feedback on the Architect storyline, since I can't seem to find a good reason in my own mind to spare him.

So just curious--who spared the Architect and why?

Personally, I didn't think it was a rational option under any circumstances for humanity to come to any sort of accord with the darkspawn or the Architect. It was clear to me that the Architect's interference led to the darkspawn not retreating upon the death of the old god, and resulted in continued human devastation, the deaths of thousands, and of dozens of wardens. It seemed clear to me that the darkspawn are very like vampires, parasitical and requiring humans for sustainence, breeding and acclimation, and as a result, an accord would be...untenable in fact. Thus, the argument that the darkspawn are somehow enslaved to the song of the old gods, and need to be freed (the slavery hook) so they can evolve, and the notion that the warden blood needed to free the darkspawn is analogous to the grey warden ritual wasn't compelling. 

I think the one thing they missed out on, however, was having the captured wardens being kept alive to provide this massive amount of blood they would need to convert darkspawn-dom. A dead warden supplies only a finite amount of blood. It would have been interesting to effect this rescue, and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

Gaider confirmed Duncan is dead.
The Architect had Velanna's sister and Utha along with anyone else they convinced/brainwashed.
Remember Archdemon blood isn't really needed for a joining, it just makes it so they are certain they are ingesting enough of the taint to undego the joining instead of simply becoming tainted. They have ample supply of Darkspawn blood to use to make their own "Wardens".

Anyway, what were you thinking when you spared the Architect?

I thought that he clearly wasn't evil, just was willing to do what needs to be done to save his people -- like the Grey Wardens. I am happy that I spared him, inteligent Darkspawn are clearly a much more dangerous threat than mindless Darkspawn, but with freedom they can possibly develop a sense of morality.

For example, if you spare the Darkspaen Messenger he eventual becomes a traveling masked hero.
He does cause a few people to become sick with the taint, showing that interaction between Darkspawn and everyone else is dangerous, but it the epilogue doesn't say that he did it on purpose.

I think it simply comes down to if you are willing to risk a far more dangerous breed Darkspawn evolving because of the small chance that there might be peace, preferably with them most staying far below ground, or do you kill him and hope the Disciples all die and things go back to normal.

Modifié par SDNcN, 19 mars 2010 - 11:12 .

[tmelange]

Vicious wrote...

I didn't believe a word he said about emancipating the Darkspawn. I was willing to give it a fair shake since I spared his Messenger [who turned out to be an alright guy] but he didn't bother trying to explain any of his past actions, the fate of Velanna's sister who was mysteriously and conspicuoulsy absent, or why he had to 'experiment' on Wardens when he said all he needed was their blood.

I'll reload and see what happens when you spare him, but my first playthrough I just couldn't... and ALL my companions were against it, especially Justice.

In the long run I doubt it'll make a difference. Someone, Velanna's sister for instance, or one of the Darkspawn he freed and didn't show up in the final battle - will pick up where The Architect left off.

Anyone explain to me what he promised Utha?

I spared the messenger, too, but that, in my mind, was an individual moral instance, rather than the larger connundrum of what EXACTLY do you do with a horde of intelligent darkspawn that outnumber humans and are parasitical in nature to humans.

I didn't at all understand the utha situation or what ended up happening to the sister. The implication that they were both complicit, or had forged an accord was left hanging, as was the status of their taint, since the dwaven girl was a gray warden, and the sister seemed to be corrupted but not as bad as if she were eating darkspawn. Anyway, I did think that was just unresolved/poorly expounded upon.

[Daerog]

Spoilers?

The Architect's promise to Utha was to end the cycle of the Blights. She never wants another Blight or darkspawn slaughtering entire families (like hers) again, so she sided with the Architect to stop it all eventually. So, she took the easy route, and I slew her. My Warden didn't know this, but he knew she sided with the darkspawn and a threat.

[tmelange]

SDNcN wrote...

*snip*

Gaider confirmed Duncan is dead.
The Architect had Velanna's sister and Utha along with anyone else they convinced/brainwashed.
Remember Archdemon blood isn't really needed for a joining, it just makes it so they are certain they are ingesting enough of the taint to undego the joining instead of simply becoming tainted. They have ample supply of Darkspawn blood to use to make their own "Wardens".

I'm sorry, lol, you've confused me here. Velanna's sister wasn't a warden. The Architect said he needed warden blood because the warden's had mastered the taint.

Darkspwn blood, not archdemon blood was used in the original joining with Duncan. We were tasked to find 3 vials of it. And, of course, there is the issue of the magic, which the darkspawn may or may not be able to replicate.

In any event, however, I don't think a small number of brainwashed individuals could not supply the blood necessary to convert the entire darkspawn horde to intelligence, in any reasonable amount of time. Or if you take it from the other direction that the darkspawn could create their own wardens, well, why haven't they? And still, how many people would they need to eat, breed, and make into gray wardens? LOL

On the other matter--I don't listen to Gaider on the issue of Duncan. He is simply the writer. Anyone who has been in fandom/popular culture knows that ANYTHING can be done/resurrected as long as a door is open and there is enough fan support. The art has a life beyond the creator.

Modifié par tmelange, 19 mars 2010 - 11:23 .

[nranola]

I imagine it would be difficult sympathizing with them considering the darkspawn were responsible for the death of thousands, but as he said, it was just their nature. They did not become what they were by choice. And now that there is one of their kind who genuinely wants to rectify this, which could mean an end to all the fighting and sacrifices for future generations, why should I deny him of that?



So yeah, I spared him. If what the Architect says is true then I believe it's a goal worth taking a chance for.

[tmelange]

Magical Might wrote...

Ah, right, the ending screen if you spare him says that...
"Many Wardens wer appalled that you made a deal with him..., the deep roads were safer than they had been in a very long time..., Warden's leave it in the Maker's hands, now, as to what will happen.

Wow...that's...wow. Very strange and very open ended. Who would do that? It's like...enabling sentient machines, and hoping they don't go all Matrix on you; or bringing an Alien to earth in Aliens. LOL Some things are just...not advisable to leave up to hope and chance.

Modifié par tmelange, 19 mars 2010 - 11:26 .

[SDNcN]

tmelange wrote...

I'm sorry, lol, you've confused me here. Velanna's sister wasn't a warden. The Architect said he needed warden blood because the warden's had mastered the taint.

Darkspwn blood, not archdemon blood was used in the original joining with Duncan. We were tasked to find 3 vials of it.

In any event, however, I don't think a small number of brainwashed individuals could not supply the blood necessary to convert the entire darkspawn horde to intelligence, in any reasonable amount of time.

On the other matter--I don't listen to Gaider on the issue of Duncan. He is simply the writer. Anyone who has been in fandom/popular culture knows that ANYTHING can be done/resurrected as long as a door is open and there is enough fan support. The art has a life beyond the creator.

I'll check on my next playthough but I am pretty sure it said he was using her blood as well.
I can't really think of another reason he would keep her around other than to use her blood.

[tmelange]

nranola wrote...

I imagine it would be difficult sympathizing with them considering the darkspawn were responsible for the death of thousands, but as he said, it was just their nature. They did not become what they were by choice. And now that there is one of their kind who genuinely wants to rectify this, which could mean an end to all the fighting and sacrifices for future generations, why should I deny him of that?

So yeah, I spared him. If what the Architect says is true then I believe it's a goal worth taking a chance for.

When you spared him, did he define what his goals were? Did he present an option where darkspawn wouldn't need to live at the expense of humans? Without that...I would be very hesitant. Intelligent darkspawn are no laughing matter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I spared him for several reasons.

Firstly, it's what I saw in the Architect.
I saw in him a visionary and a messiah for his people. I respect his desire to free his people from their beastial nature. In addition, he is rational and reasonable, in otherwords someone who can be negotiated with.
If the darkspawn are capable of becoming free and create their own civilisation, then they deserve that right.
I do not think it was entirely his fault that the 5th Blight began. It would have started anyhow, with or wihout the Architect. His experiments have had negative consequences, but the Architect is rational. He can learn from his mistakes.

Second, it was the Mother that is the immediate threat and not the Architect, who was willing to support us against her. The Mother is insane, she can't be negotiated with and she had to be destroyed immediately. Should the Architect become a threat in the future, he will be delt with then, but right now he is not the immeidate threat. Rather, he is a potential ally.

Third, the Architect is the only one that can avert the 2 blights. Can any of you guarantee that we can defeat the 2 blights or if they won't cause the death of millions? I can't. If helping the Architect might give us a chance, no matter how slim, to avert the blights then I would be willing to take that risk.

I know very well that a freed darkspawn race would still fight wars against the other races. But I would rather have a rational and reasonable enemy that has shown some form of principles (the Withered at Vigil), instead of having to face the 2 blights that are not based upon ratioinal interest nor are guided by any principle.
And such future wars are beneficial. Strife, conflict, competition, those are the drive force of development, as long as they are within reasonable borders (the blights aren't).

Those are my reasons as to why I spared him. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be a threat in the future though and he would be delt with should that happen. So overall, I do not regret my decision. The benfits that it could potentially provide exceed the risks.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mars 2010 - 11:32 .

[tmelange]

SDNcN wrote...

tmelange wrote...

I'm sorry, lol, you've confused me here. Velanna's sister wasn't a warden. The Architect said he needed warden blood because the warden's had mastered the taint.

Darkspwn blood, not archdemon blood was used in the original joining with Duncan. We were tasked to find 3 vials of it.

In any event, however, I don't think a small number of brainwashed individuals could not supply the blood necessary to convert the entire darkspawn horde to intelligence, in any reasonable amount of time.

On the other matter--I don't listen to Gaider on the issue of Duncan. He is simply the writer. Anyone who has been in fandom/popular culture knows that ANYTHING can be done/resurrected as long as a door is open and there is enough fan support. The art has a life beyond the creator.

I'll check on my next playthough but I am pretty sure it said he was using her blood as well.
I can't really think of another reason he would keep her around other than to use her blood.

I couldn't understand why she was spared either. I sort of got a vibe that it was something sexual, but that was never elucidated. Unless she was just part of the general experimental process, like a control group. Or, maybe he was using regular blood, or is able to create wardens himself. Curious.

[Vicious]

Spared him, not much different, People were upset, but the Deep Roads got quiet for a while and no one really knows what will happen next.

I felt wrong sparing him, though. He explained his end goal which sounded great but he was obviously leaving juicy bits out...

Not to mention he will continue capturing Grey Wardens, and experimenting on them [WTF was that about?] and killing them. Is it a sacrifice for a better world? I remain unconvinced. TBH I think he and I just weren't on the same page, and he really didn't explain anything.

And seeing as how weaksauce the last Blight was, and there's only two more to go, I still found it hard to swallow that I should let the Darkspawn [who by their very nature cannot co exist with humanity] grow even more powerful than they already were.

So my 'canon' is that I will not spare him. Ever. All things considered it seems like a poor choice for the future, and I have yet to read any convincing or compelling arguments to let him live that don't seem terribly shortsighted/naive.


I don't believe any blight will ever replicate how bad the first Blight was, back when no one knew how to fight them. Now people know, there is a system in place to defeat them, and they will be defeated. An Archdemon would be easier to defeat than an endless horde of Darkspawn all thinking for themselves, no longer requiring a Dragon to tell them what to do.

Modifié par Vicious, 19 mars 2010 - 11:39 .

[nranola]

tmelange wrote...

When you spared him, did he define what his goals were? Did he present an option where darkspawn wouldn't need to live at the expense of humans? Without that...I would be very hesitant. Intelligent darkspawn are no laughing matter.

He didn't, but that possibility is still there, no? And the fact that he approached the Warden openly gave me the impression that he meant little to no harm. He seemed to be reasonable enough, and like KnightofPhoenix had already said, the Mother was an immediate threat. If the Architect's plans prove to be far from noble then that can be dealt with later on. There's no reason to kill him right away, especially if there's a chance that things could turn out well for everyone.

Modifié par nranola, 19 mars 2010 - 11:40 .

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I spared him for several reasons.

Firstly, it's what I saw in the Architect.
I saw in him a visionary and a messiah for his people. I respect his desire to free his people from their beastial nature. In addition, he is rational and reasonable, in otherwords someone who can be negotiated with.
If the darkspawn are capable of becoming free and create their own civilisation, then they deserve that right.
I do not think it was entirely his fault that the 5th Blight began. It would have started anyhow, with or wihout the Architect. His experiments have had negative consequences, but the Architect is rational. He can learn from his mistakes.

Second, it was the Mother that is the immediate threat and not the Architect, who was willing to support us against her. The Mother is insane, she can't be negotiated with and she had to be destroyed immediately. Should the Architect become a threat in the future, he will be delt with then, but right now he is not the immeidate threat. Rather, he is a potential ally.

Third, the Architect is the only one that can avert the 2 blights. Can any of you guarantee that we can defeat the 2 blights or if they won't cause the death of millions? I can't. If helping the Architect might give us a chance, no matter how slim, to avert the blights then I would be willing to take that risk.

I know very well that a freed darkspawn race would still fight wars against the other races. But I would rather have a rational and reasonable enemy that has shown some form of principles (the Withered at Vigil), instead of having to face the 2 blights that are not based upon ratioinal interest nor are guided by any principle.
And such future wars are beneficial. Strife, conflict, competition, those are the drive force of development, as long as they are within reasonable borders (the blights aren't).

Those are my reasons as to why I spared him. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be a threat in the future though and he would be delt with should that happen. So overall, I do not regret my decision. The benfits that it could potentially provide exceed the risks.  

Well, I think it's a bit axiomatic to say that the mother is the immediate threat when the father created the threat of the mother. 

I'm confused about the 2 blights. Which two blights are we talking about that he can avert? Did i miss some lore?

The thing I get out of the Architect is that the desire to uplift or change the circumstances of your "people" (species, really) doesn't vest an irrevocable right to do so at the expense of another people/species, and that just because he has a plan and is rational doesn't mean that he's not wrong/crazy or that his plan is not untenable.

Every person with a plan to change civilization could be considered a visionary, from Hilter to Napoleon to Genghis Khan to L Ron Hubbard to Malcom X to Ghandi to Martin Luthor King. The real question is whether darkspawn and humans can really live side-by-side when everything that we know of the darkspawn is that they are parasitical to humans (they are not simply really ugly humans). Do you think that once we reach an accord with them that there will be human women volunteering to become broodmothers for the continuation of their species? (There doesn't seem to be any female darkspawn)

i think we're not presented with enough information to make a decision on the Architect, and enabling him seems more likely to spell the end of civilization as it is currently known in that world.

[nranola]

By immediate threat I think he means amassing an army to, say, destroy Vigil's Keep for instance? xD The Mother certainly didn't seem like one for peace talks. And about being able to avert two more Blights... Legend says there were seven Old Gods, and five Blights have already passed by the time Awakening comes around. So technically two more Blights could still occur.

[tmelange]

nranola wrote...

I imagine it would be difficult sympathizing with them considering the darkspawn were responsible for the death of thousands, but as he said, it was just their nature. They did not become what they were by choice. And now that there is one of their kind who genuinely wants to rectify this, which could mean an end to all the fighting and sacrifices for future generations, why should I deny him of that?

So yeah, I spared him. If what the Architect says is true then I believe it's a goal worth taking a chance for.

How do we know that the darkspawn are supposed to be thinking/rational beings, separate from the song of the old gods? All we know is that if they somehow partake of a special warden blood experiment, they can become self-aware, and that this is their natural state according to the Architect. But if some magical potion suddenly allowed my marbari to speak and to govern itself in the way of humans, would then all marbari need to be "freed" from the limitations subscribed by their species?

The one thing DA has not yet done for me is convince me that darkspawn are people too. LOL

Modifié par tmelange, 19 mars 2010 - 11:52 .

[ejoslin]

I let him live. I don't know, this will sound bad, but I really didn't have enough information about him at all to make a real decision so I couldn't be bothered about either choice. The mother seemed to hate him, and so I figured why not make her mad before killing her.

[Kerilus]

Until the Old Gods are all slained, Blights are eventual. Thedas has been fortunate so far to surivive the blights, yet each with a high cost. Besides, who could say Thedas will survive the remaining blights?

I do not have the delusion that the darkspawn could live happily ever after with all other races, but the Architect provides a chance to stop the Blights forever, and he's genuine as far as this goal. Also, he has indeed been successful in granting some darkspawn free will, which is an improvement from mindless beast constantly troubling the Dwarves, no?

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...
Well, I think it's a bit axiomatic to say that the mother is the immediate threat when the father created the threat of the mother. 

Not out of malice or hatred. And remember that he was trying to fix his mistake. The Architect coudl have very easily ignored her and not try to do anything about it. But he sent his army against her and is intent on fixing what he did. And I believe he was genuinely sorry.

tmelange wrote...
I'm confused about the 2 blights. Which two blights are we talking about that he can avert? Did i miss some lore?

If the Archdemons are the 7 Tevinter gods and Urthemiel in Origins was the 5th God, then there is 2 Gods / Archdemons left. Which means 2 blights left.

tmelange wrote...
The thing I get out of the Architect is that the desire to uplift or change the circumstances of your "people" (species, really) doesn't vest an irrevocable right to do so at the expense of another people/species, and that just because he has a plan and is rational doesn't mean that he's not wrong/crazy or that his plan is not untenable.

Every person with a plan to change civilization could be considered a visionary, from Hilter to Napoleon to Genghis Khan to L Ron Hubbard to Malcom X to Ghandi to Martin Luthor King. The real question is whether darkspawn and humans can really live side-by-side when everything that we know of the darkspawn is that they are parasitical to humans (they are not simply really ugly humans). Do you think that once we reach an accord with them that there will be human women volunteering to become broodmothers for the continuation of their species? (There doesn't seem to be any female darkspawn)

i think we're not presented with enough information to make a decision on the Architect, and enabling him seems more likely to spell the end of civilization as it is currently known in that world.

I never claimed we could live side by side in peace (although the darkspawn messenger is proof that they can be benevolent).

Perhaps the Architect's experiments will give the darkspawn a new means of reproduction. Perhaps not.
Even still, I think the death of a few of our females, while regretable, is better than having to face the remaining blights.
And they do not seem to need that many broodmothers anyhow. One broodmother can give birth to hundreds.

For me, it was a choice between havign to face 2 blights that seek nothign but complete annihilation, or having to face a rational and reasonable enemy. And if the blights are not averted, then the Architect can prove to be a valuable ally. 

I realise I am tkaing a big leap of faith, the Architect said so himself. But like I said, the potential benefits outweight the risks.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mars 2010 - 11:55 .