1316 réponses à ce sujet

[UnAffectedFiddle]

I did mention if I found he was making broodmothers I'd be "upset". I'd trundle down and wipe out the nest and let a disciple alive to pass along what is considered overstepping their bounds. He is experimenting, though it may sound...disturbing Utha and Serrina (the elf) decide to help him willlingly and the experiments mention other subjects were drawn to her.



The broodmothers seem to be a compulsion of the song. The disturbing thing is who decided on this particular way to reproduce? I mean, they had to start somewhere and all we know is supposedly the Magisters were the first.



And...what if the Architect is a throwback to what the first magisters became? As people say, he looks disturbingly like an arcane horror. Are we looking at a race of spirits gone mad?

[magnuskn]

Uh... dude. That's how they re-produce. I find it unlikely that they'll simply "come up with another way" on the fly. Or ever. It's their biology.



There is simply *no* moral justification for not wiping them out.

[Efesell]

tmelange wrote...

MachinekiIIer wrote...

tmelange wrote...

 

and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

david gaider said duncan is deffinetly dead.....so there is no hope lol

I think I answered this once already: I don't put much stock in what Gaider said. He's the lead writer. He says Duncan is dead; I respect that. But there is room for reinterpretation, since the lack of a body is a loophole. Gaider can be fired tomorrow, and a new writer could pick up on that thread.

The bottom line is that art has a life beyond its creator, and as any fan of popular culture knows, all you really need is a lopphole (even a ridiculous loophole) and enough support behind the notion of a return of a favorite character to convince TPTB that it would be profitable to go in that direction. If a massive number of Duncan fans took out an ad in Variety, and sent beard clippings or whatever to the  BW offices in Canada, I'm sure BW might reconsider if Duncan is truly, truly dead.

They left the door open. They could just have easily closed it entirely, like they did with Cailan. They didn't. I don't feel bad for keeping hope alive, despite Gaider's pronouncements.

There's a point where optimism just becomes delusion..

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I spared him for several reasons.

Firstly, it's what I saw in the Architect.
I saw in him a visionary and a messiah for his people. I respect his desire to free his people from their beastial nature. In addition, he is rational and reasonable, in otherwords someone who can be negotiated with.
If the darkspawn are capable of becoming free and create their own civilisation, then they deserve that right.
I do not think it was entirely his fault that the 5th Blight began. It would have started anyhow, with or wihout the Architect. His experiments have had negative consequences, but the Architect is rational. He can learn from his mistakes.

Second, it was the Mother that is the immediate threat and not the Architect, who was willing to support us against her. The Mother is insane, she can't be negotiated with and she had to be destroyed immediately. Should the Architect become a threat in the future, he will be delt with then, but right now he is not the immeidate threat. Rather, he is a potential ally.

Third, the Architect is the only one that can avert the 2 blights. Can any of you guarantee that we can defeat the 2 blights or if they won't cause the death of millions? I can't. If helping the Architect might give us a chance, no matter how slim, to avert the blights then I would be willing to take that risk.

I know very well that a freed darkspawn race would still fight wars against the other races. But I would rather have a rational and reasonable enemy that has shown some form of principles (the Withered at Vigil), instead of having to face the 2 blights that are not based upon ratioinal interest nor are guided by any principle.

I agree with everything you said, Knight. This is almost exactly my reasoning about the Architect and about why my character joined forces with him, at least to confront the Mother.

[Stephenoflight]

I'm still wondering what is the best solution about the Architect. I've spared him the fist time despite of the Gray's wardens blood and I've had an end with peace and no darkspawn news. Seems good but it require blood of human, elves and dwarfs for a lot of darkspawn...

I've kill him the next time, stiff commender of the Grays, no chance to let a darkspaw head alive. The end mention a futur Blight. It's look bad but I'm not sure to use the blood of the Greys can be a good solution.
And even... Awake darkspaw can be a threat, see the "Matriache". 

[errant_knight]

I spared him because I didn't have enough supplies to get through the broodmother fight after a battle with him, and there was no way to resupply. If I play it through again, I'll stock up and do otherwise, although the dialogue is more interesting if you spare him. That's if I play again. I don't have any real desire to, I'm afraid. The ending was beyond depressing to me--unless I missed a big opportunity to make something different.

[tmelange]

errant_knight wrote...

I spared him because I didn't have enough supplies to get through the broodmother fight after a battle with him, and there was no way to resupply. If I play it through again, I'll stock up and do otherwise, although the dialogue is more interesting if you spare him. That's if I play again. I don't have any real desire to, I'm afraid. The ending was beyond depressing to me--unless I missed a big opportunity to make something different.

A pragmatist! LOL Makes sense!

[errant_knight]

tmelange wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I spared him because I didn't have enough supplies to get through the broodmother fight after a battle with him, and there was no way to resupply. If I play it through again, I'll stock up and do otherwise, although the dialogue is more interesting if you spare him. That's if I play again. I don't have any real desire to, I'm afraid. The ending was beyond depressing to me--unless I missed a big opportunity to make something different.

A pragmatist! LOL Makes sense!

Heh, I wonder how many RL alliances are the result of an equivalent situation.

[_- Songlian -]

AndreaDraco wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I spared him for several reasons.

Firstly, it's what I saw in the Architect.
I saw in him a visionary and a messiah for his people. I respect his desire to free his people from their beastial nature. In addition, he is rational and reasonable, in otherwords someone who can be negotiated with.
If the darkspawn are capable of becoming free and create their own civilisation, then they deserve that right.
I do not think it was entirely his fault that the 5th Blight began. It would have started anyhow, with or wihout the Architect. His experiments have had negative consequences, but the Architect is rational. He can learn from his mistakes.

Second, it was the Mother that is the immediate threat and not the Architect, who was willing to support us against her. The Mother is insane, she can't be negotiated with and she had to be destroyed immediately. Should the Architect become a threat in the future, he will be delt with then, but right now he is not the immeidate threat. Rather, he is a potential ally.

Third, the Architect is the only one that can avert the 2 blights. Can any of you guarantee that we can defeat the 2 blights or if they won't cause the death of millions? I can't. If helping the Architect might give us a chance, no matter how slim, to avert the blights then I would be willing to take that risk.

I know very well that a freed darkspawn race would still fight wars against the other races. But I would rather have a rational and reasonable enemy that has shown some form of principles (the Withered at Vigil), instead of having to face the 2 blights that are not based upon ratioinal interest nor are guided by any principle.

I agree with everything you said, Knight. This is almost exactly my reasoning about the Architect and about why my character joined forces with him, at least to confront the Mother.

Agreed as well. I was actually a tad disappointed that two companions form my active team disapproved on my decision, with only Nathaniel Howe seeing reason, but I simply could not kill him, at least not with the character I was playing.

I would be so baffled if he proves to be a deceiver in a following expansion/game. 

[Ceridraen]

He reminds me of someone I know, with no imagination or emotion at all. I don't care if there are 20 more blights. He dies.

[Majere613]

krylo wrote...

Majere613 wrote...
The Architect's plan is, in a nutshell, this:
1) Take one (1) Grey Warden
2) Suck out their blood. Since the ritual is analagous to the Joining, this seems to mean all of it.
3) Take one (1) Darkspawn
4) Peform ritual
5) Hope new Darkspawn comes out smart and reasonable as opposed to nuts.

Of course, that plan requires a Grey Warden. To create a Grey Warden:
1) Take one (1) Darkspawn
2) Kill it for its blood to make the Joining potion
3) Take one (1) schmuck
4) Perform ritual
5) Hope new Grey Warden doesn't immediately drop dead.

Your biology is off.

Far far off.

One cup, that can be held in Duncan's/Varel's hands, and isn't even full.  That's MAYBE 0.25 litres, to change three people to grey wardens in Origins, and four in Awakenings (granted, actually 1 and 3, due to casualties, but there was enough there).

The (average, adult) human body can lose 1.68 litres of blood before going into shock.  That means that one grey warden could easily provide blood for 4 or more darkspawn 'joinings', per month or so without any real negative effects.  Losing a quarter litre of blood is pretty much of no effect to the human body. 

Really, probably less than that is needed per darkspawn assuming it uses the same amount of blood as the GW joining, which requires the filling of a vial per person.  Vials are generally rather small containers.  The excess fluid in the joining chalice is most likely made up by lyrium and other additives necessary in the magical concentration of taint that makes standard darkspawn (as opposed to Archdemon) blood  viable for the joining process.

The only reason darkspawn need to die to get the three vials is because, well, YOU try talking it out with a hurlock nicely and asking them to let you draw blood.

Indeed, attempting to drink the amount of blood you're suggesting 'straight', would result in vomitting in almost all creatures.  It's doubtful even cannabalistic darkspawn would be able to consume an entire grey warden's worth of blood directly purely based on stomach capacity.

My biology is irrelevant, this is magic we're talking about. Sure, live darkspawn aren't going to make very cooperative blood donors, but once you've killed one you could easily collect more blood than would fill one vial, unless for some reason the blood needs to come from more than one Darkspawn. But anyway, even given your 4 donations per month, there's still way, way too many Darkspawn for this to possibly work. Let's not forget that Lyrium doesn't grow on trees either, or the mortality rate of the Joining itself, or the fact that the Broodmothers are still a massive elephant in the room. Not to mention the state of Utha, who we can reasonably assume is one of the Architect's donors. And remember, so long as there's enough Darkspawn somewhere to make a Broodmother, the next Archdemon to awake will eventually cause a blight, period.

I reiterate, there is simply no way, whatsoever, that the Architect's plan could possibly work. And the events of 'The Calling', which I have not read, are spectacularly irrelevant to the Warden's decision since the Warden sure as hell doesn't know about them.

Oh, and another little point. The Architect lies to you point-blank about his attack on the Vigil. If it was simply an attempt to talk as he claims, why does The Withered say, when you reach him 'It has ended just as He fortold.'?
It was an attack aimed at collecting more test subjects, pure and simple- unless, of course, these new 'reasonable' darkspawn are incapable of controlling their urge to fight, or of understanding the Architect's orders. And if that's the case, then his plan fails again.

[krylo]

Majere613 wrote...



My biology is irrelevant,

Not when you're talking about how the joining requires draining someone empty.  The amount of blood in a human/darkspawn body is extremely important.  It is as though claiming that biology is entirely unimportant when dealing with bloodmagic--despite the codexes talking very clearly about human biology (regarding the mind, of all things, the most difficult of human organs to comprehend) being a key part of a blood mage's powers.

this is magic we're talking about.

Irrelevent.  The amount of fluid would remain the same regardless--particularly when additives need to included.

Sure, live darkspawn aren't going to make very cooperative blood donors, but once you've killed one you could easily collect more blood than would fill one vial

Gameplay abstraction.  You collect a quest item from every few darkspawns.  This is no more a valid argument than suggesting that not all vultures have feathers in WoW/Age of Conan/Everquest/whatever else, because that one quest where you have to collect them requires you to kill 20 birds to collect ten feathers.

Perhaps it is difficult to get the blood to flow into the vials, perhaps you don't have time to go about bleeding them out like pigs.  Perhaps it would be unnecessarily dangerous to do so considering the poisonous nature of the blood and the fact that only alistair is immune to it yet.

We can make up reasons for the abstraction all day.

Fact remains: We needed three vials.  The very definition of vial is a SMALL container.  There was not much blood required.

But anyway, even given your 4 donations per month, there's still way, way too many Darkspawn for this to possibly work.

Irrelevent.  I wasn't arguing whether or not he could free all darkspawn with his plan.  I certainly wasn't arguing he could do it overnight or even in one lifetime.

I was merely arguing that your spurious accusations that he has to drain a human being of all their blood for one darkspawn is exactly that--spurious.

Let's not forget that Lyrium doesn't grow on trees either

Indeed.  It grows underground in the deep roads.

or the mortality rate of the Joining itself

Irrelevent.  The architect doesn't need the joining ritual to have a 100% success rate.  He merely needs for Grey Wardens to exist, and they do.  In fact, he could probably just permasleep/tie down say... a hundred wardens, and drain them of blood while cycling them out as necessary to keep them alive.

Or he could just make a trade deal with Weisshaupt/Orzammar for Grey Warden blood given willingly in exchange for information on darkspawn movement/activity/warnings of surface raids.  Or even Lyrium.

or the fact that the Broodmothers are still a massive elephant in the room.

Completely irrelevent.  They get their own rooms.  This has nothing to do with anything.

Not to mention the state of Utha, who we can reasonably assume is one of the Architect's donors.

Your accusation that her state is because she is a donor as opposed to because she hangs out with the Architect and has most likely been experimented upon is ALSO quite spurious.

Also, the very fact that she lives disproves your accusation that he must kill a warden for blood.  He states that he altered more than one darkspawn with Utha's blood, and yet she still lives to be creepy and bow at you.

And remember, so long as there's enough Darkspawn somewhere to make a Broodmother, the next Archdemon to awake will eventually cause a blight, period.

If the Architect knows where the archdemons are he could set up defenses to keep his brethern away from it.

So, no.  Not period.

Oh, and another little point. The Architect lies to you point-blank about his attack on the Vigil. If it was simply an attempt to talk as he claims, why does The Withered say, when you reach him 'It has ended just as He fortold.'?
It was an attack aimed at collecting more test subjects, pure and simple- unless, of course, these new 'reasonable' darkspawn are incapable of controlling their urge to fight, or of understanding the Architect's orders. And if that's the case, then his plan fails again.

Irrelevent as to whether his plan could work/cause fewer blights. 

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Fishy]

On my canon playthrough i will kill him..Enough



-He's the one that awakened the 5th Blight

--He's experimenting on human

-He's the one to blame for making the mother intelligent

-He captured Velanna

-He's ugly and he would never be accept has a sentient being.

[Sarah1281]

I think the fact his presence corrupts and kills others with the taint is slightly more relevent than him being ugly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think the fact his presence corrupts and kills others with the taint is slightly more relevent than him being ugly.

The Qunari merchant would disagree.
Clearly, the Architect can protect people from the taint.

[krylo]

Suprez30 wrote...

-He's ugly and he would never be accept has a sentient being.

If this is reason not to accept someone as sentient, how'd you get into the club?

[magnuskn]

Wow, I am surprised that everybody is overlooking the fact that creating a sentient race of darkspawn, which probably would stay around after they made peace, would still need women of the other races to be gang-raped and brutally transformed into broodmothers, because otherwise those sentient darkspawn would die out pretty quickly.



That alone is, for me at least, reason enough to not cooperate with the architect and try to wipe out all darkspawn as soon as is feasible.

[Efesell]

"Wiping out all darkspawn" would be a monumentally difficult, if not impossible, task.

[KnightofPhoenix]

magnuskn wrote...

Wow, I am surprised that everybody is overlooking the fact that creating a sentient race of darkspawn, which probably would stay around after they made peace, would still need women of the other races to be gang-raped and brutally transformed into broodmothers, because otherwise those sentient darkspawn would die out pretty quickly.

That alone is, for me at least, reason enough to not cooperate with the architect and try to wipe out all darkspawn as soon as is feasible.

Actually no it hasen't been overlooked. The issue was discussed in the thread.

One broodmother can give birth to thousands of darkspawns in her lifetime, so their reproductive needs , while important, aren't as urgent as you'd think. They don't need to take alot of our women.

While the loss of our women is regretable if we side with the Architect, I would rather have that then face the 2 blights, where our women would be taken anyhow and in greater numbers. Not to mention hundred of thousands of deaths. Or potentially, complete annihilation.

And wiping the darkspawn out is an almost impossible task. 
So it's either them becoming reasonable and prone to negotiation. Or have them errupt in 2 blights, then after the death of all the Archdemons, become either insane or intelligent anyways.
You can't delay the inevitable, so might as well have someone like the Architect guide them.

[ClosingRacer]

tmelange wrote...

Going to do one more playthrough and figured I'd ask for some feedback on the Architect storyline, since I can't seem to find a good reason in my own mind to spare him.

So just curious--who spared the Architect and why?

Personally, I didn't think it was a rational option under any circumstances for humanity to come to any sort of accord with the darkspawn or the Architect. It was clear to me that the Architect's interference led to the darkspawn not retreating upon the death of the old god, and resulted in continued human devastation, the deaths of thousands, and of dozens of wardens. It seemed clear to me that the darkspawn are very like vampires, parasitical and requiring humans for sustainence, breeding and acclimation, and as a result, an accord would be...untenable in fact. Thus, the argument that the darkspawn are somehow enslaved to the song of the old gods, and need to be freed (the slavery hook) so they can evolve, and the notion that the warden blood needed to free the darkspawn is analogous to the grey warden ritual wasn't compelling. 

I think the one thing they missed out on, however, was having the captured wardens being kept alive to provide this massive amount of blood they would need to convert darkspawn-dom. A dead warden supplies only a finite amount of blood. It would have been interesting to effect this rescue, and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

Anyway, what were you thinking when you spared the Architect?

If you read the books you  might think other wise... I have not beaten the game so i have no cluse what you talking about the darkspawn retreating but eh knowing what i know from the books i might be able to spare him..

[Efesell]

I wonder just what the horde would do during the last blight after the Archdemon dies. All of them topside, and now (presumably) free from that siren song.



It would end badly, I think.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

While the loss of our women is regretable if we side with the Architect, I would rather have that then face the 2 blights, where our women would be taken anyhow and in greater numbers. Not to mention hundred of thousands of deaths. Or potentially, complete annihilation.

I, too, find it difficult to believe that you can posit this with any seriousness.  It is like saying that horrible, tormenting experiments on people are worth it if they produce a cure for cancer.  First, do no harm.

And wiping the darkspawn out is an almost impossible task.

Just as in our world, there will always be war.  You fight the battles as they come.  If you lose your humanity, as you surely do if you cooperate with the darkspawn, what are you even fighting for?

[Efesell]

It's more like in a situation where both options are horrible you pick the on that is slightly less so.



Can't always be heroic.

[BubbleDncr]

meh, the next blight won't happen for another couple centuries, and if its anything like this last one, 2 grey wardens will basically defeat it on their own before anyone really starts taking it seriously.

so i killed the architect. no reason to have smart darkspawn who may or may not be insane and wanting to kill humans,

oh, and i had already decided when i read the calling that i was gonna kill utha for betraying all her companions. 

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 22 mars 2010 - 02:52 .