1316 réponses à ce sujet

[tmelange]

Lycidas wrote...

I actually stopped playing for now when it came to that decision. I know from the book that the Architect can not be trusted and I really really want to kill him but that it knowledge that can not be found anywhere in the game (at least I did not find it)...I don't like metagaming so because of this and some messed up quests I'm going to start again from the beginning and find myself a reason to kill him in the meanwhile.

I thought the exact opposite: I thought there was enough info in-game to kill him, and not enough info to spare him. 

I don't really like that this expansion was so dependent on reading The Calling. You don't get to know Utha at all in-game, and why she's on the Architect's side.  Access to her thought process might have made a great difference in engendering faith in the Architect's version of affairs.

Modifié par tmelange, 22 mars 2010 - 09:44 .

[tmelange]

Tellervo wrote...

My Warden saw too much common ground, and that honestly frightened him.  Now he's terrified that when he goes to his Calling he'll survive and turn into something like that....  How can you kill a reflection of yourself?

That was my logic, which isn't really logic at all.

That would be...terrible, and is a good reason for pause.

[magnuskn]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

Uh... dude. That's how they re-produce. I find it unlikely that they'll simply "come up with another way" on the fly. Or ever. It's their biology.

There is simply *no* moral justification for not wiping them out.

You failed to read the bit where I point out Seranni and Utha being women, possibly hybridised women. We dont know if the race can reproduce outside of its usual state of a hive mind. Because they are seeking to break free of their hive mind.

Yes, we don't know.  We don't know either if humanity will completely change it's method of reproduction from today to tomorrow. I find it highly unlikely however, or let's say pretty much damned impossible that they will.

We do know however how they reproduce right now and probably will forever.

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...More importantly by killing him you only guarantee an endless cycle vs the slim chance that the darkspawn will change. You would rather guarantee endless war over a possible outcome that does not involve slaughtering a race. I also speak of destroying a primal force that has existed on this planet long before other sentient races, the Old Gods. More worrying is what happens when you take a race of beings so powerful it supposedly took a god to chain them in the earth and wipe them out?

So, we either kill him and left with endless darkspawn or we let him live and face the fact things might change, and even if they dont  we are still fighting an eternal war.

That's so factually wrong that I don't really see if you looked at lore at all. We already killed five of seven old gods ( minus one, if we take Morrigans child into account ) and are looking forward to two more, after that it's done.

So it's a finite threat, not eternal at all.


And, btw, KnightofPhoenix, I hope you never, ever get any position of responsibility over people. Your moral compass clearly needs some working at. I mean, wow, rejecting a comparison between the Architect and Josef Mengele because Mengele was not competent enough? Wow, classy.

Modifié par magnuskn, 22 mars 2010 - 10:19 .

[magnuskn]

Double post. Again.

Modifié par magnuskn, 22 mars 2010 - 09:46 .

[Xandurpein]

I killed him for practical reasons, rather than that he seemed evil. His goals are simply not compatible with humanity. He needs to extract blood from Grey Wardens to 'free' darkspawn. I don't know the numbers, but it seems pretty obvious that to fullfill his plan the Architecht would need a huge supply of Grey Wardens to be used as blood banks for his experiments.

Even if half or more of the Darkspawn could stop feeling the pull from the Archdemon, then the other half could still feel the pull of the Archdemon and start a Blight. Killing all the darkspawn who still can feel the pull of the Archdemon is only temporary. Apparently Broodmothers like 'Mother' will still bring forth Darkspawn who are not talking, so for every new generation the process needs to be repated. The darkspawn race would need a huge supply of Grey Warden blood to stay 'mute'. In effect a huge proportion of the human race would be turned into Grey Wardens and continually tapped for blood to keep the darkspawn from devoloving and feel the pull of the Archdemon.

Even if I can in some respects feel a certain sympathy for the Architect, his visions simply can't be realized without violating humanity in a way I will never accept. The fact that he has proven himself capable of killing and abducting Grey Wardens in a way that threatened Fereldan means that he needs to die if the opportunity arises. It's not just the actions, but the scale of the actions that the Architect needs to do, in order to fullfill his objective. This is just further proved by his actions in 'The Calling', he needs to turn all humanity into Grey Wardens to 'save' the Darkspawn. I found that unacceptable and so I killed him.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 22 mars 2010 - 10:28 .

[Lycidas]

tmelange wrote...

Lycidas wrote...

I actually stopped playing for now when it came to that decision. I know from the book that the Architect can not be trusted and I really really want to kill him but that it knowledge that can not be found anywhere in the game (at least I did not find it)...I don't like metagaming so because of this and some messed up quests I'm going to start again from the beginning and find myself a reason to kill him in the meanwhile.

I thought the exact opposite: I thought there was enough info in-game to kill him, and not enough info to spare him. 

I don't really like that this expansion was so dependent on reading The Calling. You don't get to know Utha at all in-game, and why she's on the Architect's side.  Access to her thought process might have made a great difference in engendering faith in the Architect's version of affairs.

Hm...I don't know. We know what he did resulted in bad things but there is really not much proof that bad things were in his intention (by in-game knowledge).
I would have liked to tell him I knew what his plan was (from the book) before killing him.

[Gabey5]

hmm avoiding the blight forever....but then you would still have to deal with intelligent darkspawn...where would they live? take the dwarves and humans lands?

[nranola]

That's one thing I feel horrible about overlooking. Where exactly will the darkspawn stay if they do eventually become sentient beings? The Deep Roads? That would be unfair for the dwarven folk unless they come up with some sort of compromise. Any way you look at it it doesn't seem like darkspawn and the other races could co-exist without one race stepping into the others' comfort zone. Unless there's a way to "reverse" the darkspawn taint, make them human/dwarves/elves/qunari again? Like what happened with the werewolves? That's kind of a longshot, though.

If only we could sit the Architect down for a nice long discussion... get to the nitty gritty of things. That would've been nice.

Anyhoo, I doubt my character would have been able to take all that into account when she made her decision. The points that drove her to spare the Architect were mainly 1.) they needed to kill the Mother as soon as possible, 2.) the Architect was an ally against the Mother, 3.) he wasn't hostile, and 4.) he presents a possibility to prevent future Blights. She's the type to seize an opportunity when it presents itself. My other characters might approach it differently, though. Ahh, the joys of RP... x3

Modifié par nranola, 22 mars 2010 - 03:13 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You speak as if  the Qunari is genetically incapable of acquiring the disease (which would be a huge stretch). The Qunari is an example that infection can be avoided somehow. How? I do not know. But I do know that the Architect knows.
He is proof that one can interact with the darkspawn rather closely and still not be infected. And such a thing can be duplicated.

The Architect may know, but he doesn't care whether humanity remains untainted or not.  It's part of his plan that humanity itself will be infected with the taint so that the darkspawn no longer recognize them as something different than themselves.  Similar to how Ruck can live among them, and tells you that they leave him alone because they think he is one of them.

The Architect doesn't care whether a good portion of humanity is wiped out and the rest left in some state close to that of himself.  His "peace" is not something normal, sane human beings can live with.  IMNSHO.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 mars 2010 - 03:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You speak as if  the Qunari is genetically incapable of acquiring the disease (which would be a huge stretch). The Qunari is an example that infection can be avoided somehow. How? I do not know. But I do know that the Architect knows.
He is proof that one can interact with the darkspawn rather closely and still not be infected. And such a thing can be duplicated.

The Architect may know, but he doesn't care whether humanity remains untainted or not.  It's part of his plan that humanity itself will be infected with the taint so that the darkspawn no longer recognize them as something different than themselves.  Similar to how Ruck can live among them, and tells you that they leave him alone because they think he is one of them.

The Architect doesn't care whether a good portion of humanity is wiped out and the rest left in some state close to that of himself.  His "peace" is not something normal, sane human beings can live with.  IMNSHO.

That's info from the calling, that my character does not have.

Furthermore, he might have changed his plan. Nothing in his notes and letters within the game suggests he wants that kind of peace.
In fact, he must have realised that even the tainted fight amongst themselves. That's the whole point of Awakening, it was a darkspawn civil war. And it was clear to me that the Architect was genuinely surprised that this happened. He is reasonable and can learn from his mistakes. The fact that intelligent darkspawn killed each other is proof that his plan for peace can't work.
 
Seeing how the Architect from the game differs alot from the Architect of the book, then he iss subject of either a big retcon, or he changed. Nothing in the game points to his "taint everyone" plan. His only apparent goal is to free his people.

And alot of people don't care about wiping out the darkspawn, even though they have shown the capacity to be benevolent. So how is he different? Because we are the "good guys" and he happens to be the "bad guy"?

[Annarl]

The first time I killed the Architect...namely because I felt I just didn't have enough information to let him live. I don't know anything about what his plan is or how it would work. And I'm not okay with the whole broodmother thing. I am unprepared to sacrifice any woman to such a fate.

As for the Qunari, he leaves me with more questions. He was promised not to be affected by the taint. But if you let the messenger live, he infects people. This seems strange. According the codex we know Quanri are infected by the taint because that how orges (Quanri broodmothers) are made right?

It's an interesting discussion.

Of course just to be thorough, I went back and have another save in which I let him live. But I don't like it! LOL

Modifié par omearaee, 22 mars 2010 - 04:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...

krylo wrote...

Then don't use the word 'scientifically'.  There is no such thing as scientific fact.  Only theory.

Maybe you should stop taking a point made in the first paragraph and applying it to a sentence made in the last paragraph that has nothing to do with that sentence. The sentence you seem stuck on relates to the original argument: that the existence of the Qunari can form the basis of a new theory of the case.

My argument is simply a presentation of the facts as they have been presented to us in this universe by Bioware. I'm not the one presenting some new theory. The OP on this issue was. I'm the one saying you can't base a theory on an anomaly when you have so many clear instances for a different conclusion, and no substantiation as to why the anomaly exists.

I'm not sure why you're missing this point.
.

No, I wasn't.
I was responding to the theory that the Architect corrupts all those around him, which is proven to be false because of the Qunari merchant. That's it.

The Qunari merchant being protected from the taint shows that there is a possibility to interact to a certain extent with the darkspawn, without being infected.

[Sandtigress]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seeing how the Architect from the game differs alot from the Architect of the book, then he iss subject of either a big retcon, or he changed. Nothing in the game points to his "taint everyone" plan. His only apparent goal is to free his people.

I suspect his plans changed with further experimentation.  For one, I think it was a shock to him that he appears to have accidentally caused a Blight instead of stopping it.  First big flaw in his grand-master plan.

Also, his original plan didn't include sentient darkspawn - I believe he thought was the only one.  So somewhere along the way he cooked up his little Joining ritual and discovered that he could awaken his fellow darkspawn, and this might have played a big role in changing his plans.  Rather than taint all of humanity, he's going to awaken his people.  It might even be that he saw the folly in killing most of mankind in order to spare a few and sees this new route as a much safer option - we're not told, are we, how the darkspawn Joining ritual affects them?


My Orlesian spared him at least long eough to beat the Mother.  He didn't really buy into the Architect staying alive as a necessarily good thing, but there was an immediate matter that needed to be handled.  His biggest concern with the Architect was that he didn't seem to give too much thought to the potential results of his tinkering, only what might be a result, if things turned out really well.  Which we all know rarely ever happens.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 22 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sandtigress wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seeing how the Architect from the game differs alot from the Architect of the book, then he iss subject of either a big retcon, or he changed. Nothing in the game points to his "taint everyone" plan. His only apparent goal is to free his people.

I suspect his plans changed with further experimentation.  For one, I think it was a shock to him that he appears to have accidentally caused a Blight instead of stopping it.  First big flaw in his grand-master plan.

Also, his original plan didn't include sentient darkspawn - I believe he thought was the only one.  So somewhere along the way he cooked up his little Joining ritual and discovered that he could awaken his fellow darkspawn, and this might have played a big role in changing his plans.  Rather than taint all of humanity, he's going to awaken his people.  It might even be that he saw the folly in killing most of mankind in order to spare a few and sees this new route as a much safer option - we're not told, are we, how the darkspawn Joining ritual affects them?

I haven't read the calling, so I can't know. But if in the Calling, he never planned to free his people, then clearly by the time of Awakening, he changed.

That's evident in the way he writes his notes and letters. In many ways, he is like a child learning more and more. He finds most things around him odd. Call me naive, but that kind of guy needs help to properly understand, not hate and aggression when it's unwaranted.

Sandtigress wrote...
My Orlesian spared him at least long eough to beat the Mother.  He didn't really buy into the Architect staying alive as a necessarily good thing, but there was an immediate matter that needed to be handled.  His biggest concern with the Architect was that he didn't seem to give too much thought to the potential results of his tinkering, only what might be a result, if things turned out really well.  Which we all know rarely ever happens.

That was partially a part of my reasoning as well. My PC saved Amaranthine almost singlehandedly, had to walk to the Mother's lair, kill many of her minions and even a high dragon. So the guy has to be tired. The Architect can lend his support. The Mother is the immediate threat and not the Architect. So I found it more difficult to reject his offer rather than to accept it (and it was difficult in any case).

I won't be surprised if the Architect turns out to be a future threat. And if he does, he can be delt with there, when I am 100% sure he is a threat. But he wasn't the immediate threat in Awakening.

[Lycidas]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's info from the calling, that my character does not have.

And this is driving me nuts. The warden commander should freaking know this.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's info from the calling, that my character does not have.

Furthermore, he might have changed his plan. Nothing in his notes and letters within the game suggests he wants that kind of peace.

The fact that his halls are filled with tormented ghouls suggests that.  Very strongly.

What I can't find in-game is why I should trust a talking darkspawn to lead me to lunch, let alone to continue his scientific experiments on humans, dwarves and elves and organizing armies to go against settlements under my protection.

Seeing how the Architect from the game differs alot from the Architect of the book, then he iss subject of either a big retcon, or he changed. Nothing in the game points to his "taint everyone" plan. His only apparent goal is to free his people.

He is concealing his plans.  Do you really expect him to announce them?

And alot of people don't care about wiping out the darkspawn, even though they have shown the capacity to be benevolent. So how is he different? Because we are the "good guys" and he happens to be the "bad guy"?

I for one have no trouble saying "Humans 1, Darkspawn 0" if that is what it comes down to.

Something I'm puzzled about is the scene where he looses the dragon thralls on you.  I gather that he decides at that point that he must try to kill you rather than letting you go?

[Patriciachr34]

The Architect needed to die. Although his goals may seem altruistic, he and his "people" will still need to feed off humanity to survive. And, as it will take many failures to create a success we could find ourselves facing a continual blight situation with darkspawn raiding the surface for "supplies" and mad creations trying to destroy everything they see.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

If you risk nothing, you can never make giant gains. It is what humans do and it is why we have the power we have. I was thinking from the pragmatic side of things in the tower. He doesn't want to fight so why waste energy fighting him when a more vicious enemy lay ahead. Save the energy for the real fight.



If he wants to fight later, we know he exists and can plan for it. Anders is already going the scholar route on the Architect anyway. Accumulate knowledge and stand vigilant. However, what he promises... It just way too important to give up out of fear. Kill him and face two more Blights and whatever evolution occurs along the way. He himself was a fluke of evolution, would you like to chance another like him without his reasoning? Another like the Mother without his help?



So, I took a chance knowing that the knowledge of his existence will help if he comes back with malice yet I preserved hope. Good times.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's info from the calling, that my character does not have.

Furthermore, he might have changed his plan. Nothing in his notes and letters within the game suggests he wants that kind of peace.

The fact that his halls are filled with tormented ghouls suggests that.  Very strongly.

What I can't find in-game is why I should trust a talking darkspawn to lead me to lunch, let alone to continue his scientific experiments on humans, dwarves and elves and organizing armies to go against settlements under my protection.

Seeing how the Architect from the game differs alot from the Architect of the book, then he iss subject of either a big retcon, or he changed. Nothing in the game points to his "taint everyone" plan. His only apparent goal is to free his people.

He is concealing his plans.  Do you really expect him to announce them?

According to Sandtrigress, in the Calling, the Architect never wanted to free his people. Now he does. That's evidence that his plan did change to a certain extent.
If he indeed wanted to turn everyone into ghouls, then why didn't he turn the PC and his companions? He in fact mended their wounds.

His experiments were to test the resistance to the taint and for the purposes of his joining. Beyond that, you are purely speculating, using info about a book that your character hasen't read. 

And the Architect was using his army to combat the Mother (the breeding ground), not your settlements, with the exception of the Vigil.
That's reason enough for me.

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And alot of people don't care about wiping out the darkspawn, even though they have shown the capacity to be benevolent. So how is he different? Because we are the "good guys" and he happens to be the "bad guy"?

I for one have no trouble saying "Humans 1, Darkspawn 0" if that is what it comes down to.

Something I'm puzzled about is the scene where he looses the dragon thralls on you.  I gather that he decides at that point that he must try to kill you rather than letting you go?

I personally have trouble assigning "0" to en entire species that can become civilised like it's some sort of game (well it is, but still).

Seeing how you killed most of his people in the base and are trying to escape, then yes. You expect him to flash the exit sign for you so you know where to go?
I guess he figured that if you are dead, he can take all your blood. Wouldn't be such a great loss. But that wasn't his first intention, otherwise he would havedone it from the very beginning, when you were helplessly sleeping like a baby.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2010 - 04:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

He is concealing his plans.  Do you really expect him to announce them?

No, I am expecting to read hints about it in his notes, which I didn't.

[Sarah1281]

What I found odd was that the only reason you were able to escape was because of Velanna's sister, who by all accounts was working with the Architect. Did she just go against him because she either didn't know what he was planning or didn't like it if it involved her sister? Because if she wasn't acting against him and he was testing the wardens then it makes no sense for him to try and kill them. Unless he didn't think people who couldn't stand up to two dragon thralls could take on the Mother?

[DeathWyrmNexus]

It is an odd sensation to be agreeing so much with KnightofPhoenix... But it works here. /sidenote

[Sandtigress]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

According to Sandtrigress, in the Calling, the Architect never wanted to free his people. Now he does. That's evidence that his plan did change to a certain extent.
If he indeed wanted to turn everyone into ghouls, then why didn't he turn the PC and his companions? He in fact mended their wounds.

His experiments were to test the resistance to the taint and for the purposes of his joining. Beyond that, you are purely speculating, using info about a book that your character hasen't read. 

And the Architect was using his army to combat the Mother (the breeding ground), not your settlements, with the exception of the Vigil.
That's reason enough for me.

Just to be absolutely correct, he never talks about freeing his people individually like he does in Awakening, that I recall. His plans were more along the lines of "free everyone in a few fell swoops" rather than one by one by awakening them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What I found odd was that the only reason you were able to escape was because of Velanna's sister, who by all accounts was working with the Architect. Did she just go against him because she either didn't know what he was planning or didn't like it if it involved her sister? Because if she wasn't acting against him and he was testing the wardens then it makes no sense for him to try and kill them. Unless he didn't think people who couldn't stand up to two dragon thralls could take on the Mother?

I was actually thinking about that.
Maybe he didn't want the WArdens to suspect he is letting them free.

What I found equally odd is that he apparently thinks losing the base (or something in it) was unfortunate and that they can't go back for it now....well if he freed the Wardens, what did he expect?

EDIT: and at the end, he said he wanted to explain hismelf, that's why he restrained you.
So I think it's more probably that Seranni did this on her own accord.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2010 - 04:57 .