1316 réponses à ce sujet

[vandoug]

How to make DA2 more exciting and challenging? I'd imagine facing a true blight plus "intelligent " darkspawn armies is the way to go. That's one reason I think more darkspawns will inevitably be awakened by this Architect or by someone else.

Modifié par vandoug, 23 mars 2010 - 01:12 .

[Laurento]

Great thread, one that reminds me why I love the DA lore so much.

I've always RP'd my Human Noble Warrior as the honourable, paladin type: who's always strived to do the right thing, defending the weak and smiting evil. But even I chose to side with the Architect and in fact if there had been a choice to join him I probably would of, why?

I chose to side with him because it seemed the most rational decision putting aside past prejudices and experiences, and both Velanna and Nathaniel agreed with me only Justice was reluctant (for obvious reasons). His arguement struck a cord with me, when my character expressed disdain for Disciples drinking Warden Blood to "awaken", The Architect pointed out we Wardens, had been drinking their blood far longer giving no thought to it.

He opened my eyes to the bigger picture, The Darkspawn can never be completely eradicated, they probably still outnumber all the races of Thedas combined. The only option is co-existance, and The Architect is a visionary in this regard, it may be impossible to make every single Darkspawn sentinent, but if they can at least manage some sort of self regulation then it's worth it. Because if even one Blight succeeds... it's game over for Thedas.

My faith in the matter was only reaffirmed by "The Messenger" who showed his kind have the capacity to do good as well.

Modifié par Laurento, 22 mars 2010 - 11:54 .

[AndreaDraco]

Another reason my Mage, who, sorry if I have to stress this point once again, but it's really pivotal to my roleplaying of the character, is a convinced Libertarian, sided with the Architect:



When the Architect says that the darkspawn have always behaved in a certain way because they were never free to choose for themselves, this struck a chord with him - this negation of every freedon isn't what the Chantry strives to achieve for the Mages, or the Dalish or everyone that disagree with their dogmas? Aren't the darkspawn entitled to this choice? Don't they deserve it? Can't they choose what to be, instead of being defined by their heritage? What if they really could knew this choice? Knew this freedom? Isn't that a risk worth taking?



And Laurento has a point: The Messenger is the living proof of this choice. Certainly, he spreads - albeit occasionally - the darkspawn desease, but maybe, working together, this obstacle can be removed.



I don't think every darkspawn will heed to the Architect plan. But isn't it fair that instead of being considered a shapeless mass they can be a group of individuals? Not every Orlesians is a trechearous dog like Loghain would like to think

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...
And Laurento has a point: The Messenger is the living proof of this choice. Certainly, he spreads - albeit occasionally - the darkspawn desease, but maybe, working together, this obstacle can be removed.

The infection is irrelevent in the worth of an individual. It's not by choie that the messenger spreads the disease. It's a part of him and he, as an individual, can't be judged by that. His actions however, that of helping a people that would probably want him dead if they knew what he is, are of his own accord and of his own choice. That is what we can judge, when we judge the worth (rational or ethical) of a character.

The messenger is proof that the darkspawn can have ethical worth and can be benevolent. 
And the infection of the taint can be limited and avoided, in order to achieve at least a limited form of interaction, as demonstrated by the Qunari merchant.  

[Laurento]

Call me crazy but I think The Messenger is almost a dead certainty for an NPC companion in DA2.

[Godak]

I spared the Architect because the character I was playing as, Ardin, believes in giving others second chances, darkspawn or no. I seems to have payed off, what with the darkspawn retreating into the deep roads.

[Sarah1281]

I just could not come up with any reason for my dwarf character to spare him, especially seeing all the echoes at Kal'Hirol. Making darkspawn stronger has ALWAYS lead to bad things for the dwarves and since I only had Sigrun and Justice with me and they agreed, it was really the only choice I could make. Maybe if I play as another race I could find a reason but the dwarves are still dying out so that's really a no-go.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Another reason my Mage, who, sorry if I have to stress this point once again, but it's really pivotal to my roleplaying of the character, is a convinced Libertarian, sided with the Architect:

When the Architect says that the darkspawn have always behaved in a certain way because they were never free to choose for themselves, this struck a chord with him - this negation of every freedon isn't what the Chantry strives to achieve for the Mages, or the Dalish or everyone that disagree with their dogmas? Aren't the darkspawn entitled to this choice? Don't they deserve it? Can't they choose what to be, instead of being defined by their heritage? What if they really could knew this choice? Knew this freedom? Isn't that a risk worth taking?

And Laurento has a point: The Messenger is the living proof of this choice. Certainly, he spreads - albeit occasionally - the darkspawn desease, but maybe, working together, this obstacle can be removed.

I don't think every darkspawn will heed to the Architect plan. But isn't it fair that instead of being considered a shapeless mass they can be a group of individuals? Not every Orlesians is a trechearous dog like Loghain would like to think

Heh my main character was a Mage as well and this is very close to what ran through my mind. Also the fact their seemed to be no earth shattering revelation when The First came to the Fade does make you think this whole "mages created the Darkspawn" junk is Chantry propaganda.

Hopefully the sequel will explore this!

[Laurento]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just could not come up with any reason for my dwarf character to spare him, especially seeing all the echoes at Kal'Hirol. Making darkspawn stronger has ALWAYS lead to bad things for the dwarves and since I only had Sigrun and Justice with me and they agreed, it was really the only choice I could make. Maybe if I play as another race I could find a reason but the dwarves are still dying out so that's really a no-go.

I can fully understand that from a Dwarven perspective, but the ironic thing?


*SPOILERS*



If you let the Architect live, in the epilogue it states the Deep Roads become safer then they have been in centuries as Darkspawn activity lessens, probably saving countless dwarven lives and Orzammar leads an expidition and succeeds in retaking Kal'Hirol anyway.

Modifié par Laurento, 23 mars 2010 - 12:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just could not come up with any reason for my dwarf character to spare him, especially seeing all the echoes at Kal'Hirol. Making darkspawn stronger has ALWAYS lead to bad things for the dwarves and since I only had Sigrun and Justice with me and they agreed, it was really the only choice I could make. Maybe if I play as another race I could find a reason but the dwarves are still dying out so that's really a no-go.

Oghren wants to spare him if I remember correctly. Not to mention Utha.
Sigrun doesn't.

The dwarves are the ones who benefit the most actually. The deap roads have never been quieter if the Architect is spared.

[Sarah1281]

If you let the Architect live, in the epilogue it states the Deep Roads become safer then they have been in centuries as Darkspawn activity lessens, probably saving countless dwarven lives and Orzammar leads an expidition and succeeds in retaking Kal'Hirol anyway.

You don't know that until the epilogue, though, and the dwarves retake Kal'Hirol either way.

[7th_Phoenix]

Grey Wardens use darkspawn blood for joining and have the ability to sense them in order to keep them from corrupting the land. Darkspawn can taint people, eat them...

vs.

Architect takes blood from Grey Wardens to give darkspawn their freedom and awareness (as would a Warden does from them) but for bad reasons. He also captures you and takes your blood as well as your companions. Took Serani, Velanna's sister, who helped you as much as she could. He doesn't have sense of mortality and knows not the concept of the good of mankind. Many other crimes he committed...



But that aside, I will aid the Architect in my next playthrough just to see how it turns out. It's refreshing to play a different way.

[sylvanaerie]

hmmm Intelligent aggressive darkspawn vs mindless aggressive (and lacking cohesive guidance) darkspawn...Yea I let the Architect have it right between the running lights and his little lackey Utha too. I didn't even listen to his spiel cause I didn't believe one word coming out of his mouth.



Intelligent or not, they still need broodmothers to reproduce and in my mind that puts them in "parasite" category not sentient/viable separate beings. And he needs GW blood to make them all sentient anyway. NO guarentees they wouldn't turn out like Mother and her brood. As for the messenger, I left it up to Garavel what to do with him. Frankly I was so disgusted by the end I didn't care what happened I just wanted to kill them all and be done with it.



People complained the ending was too abrupt. For me at that point, I couldn't get finished fast enough.

[CybAnt1]

The Architect seems to believe that making the darkspawn sentient will also make them peaceful and end the conflict between them and the rest of Thedas.



Well, two problems with his plan, and why he's no "Neo" a la the final Matrix movie bringing "peace!" He thinks he can make sure there will be no more Blights ... well....



#1, the plan requires sucking every remaining Gray Warden dry of their blood, vampire style. Unless he's going to rely on a system of voluntary donations & blood banks. No way.



#2, it doesn't appear to always work, and btw even when it does it seems a la the Mother & her brood, they go insane afterward, and remain violent & dangerous.



I killed him for the same reason I did Avernus (the 1st time anyway) ... the ends do not justify the means and you can see the horrific results of his experiments on kidnapped people. His plan may not work - in fact you see evidence why it won't - and what he's done so far, including to you directly, do not justify it.



I mean, btw, if he meant me no harm, why exactly did he stick me in an arena with two deadly dragons. Was that another "experiment"?

[Behindyounow]

Simple:



Any criminals that are sentenced to death are made into grey wardens to provide blood for the disciples.



The broodmothers are not made disciples either. I gather that the disciples who agreed with the mother only did so once she was awakened.



And whether or not the Architect is killed or not, there is one disciple who gets away. The Seeker. From the Architect's notes he makes out the Seeker to be his assistant.

[FeelThePaint]

i chose to make a deal with the architect simply because i play through all endings, so it doesnt matter much which comes first.



i think i remember from the ending dialogue that it was the architects fault the archdemon was awakened in the first place due to a "terrible mistake" on his side.



If the darkspawn outnumber the other races it would be foolish to create intelligent darkspawn. As it is with a blight, you need only kill the arch demon for the darkspawn to be leaderless and not a true danger (except for the dwarves). if the archdemon is killed the next blight, the darkspawn wouldnt flee or get confused, and the horde is just as big as before. Given that there are enough intelligent darkspawn allready present.

[nranola]

I think the problem is people have this preconception that the goal of all darkspawn, intelligent or not, is to wage war against mankind. This can only be true when they have a "group mind" going, the song that binds them to the Archdemon. Without that every individual darkspawn has the ability to think and act for themselves, which doesn't always mean killing off every other race in Thedas. The messenger is a prime example of this.

With regards to the broodmothers, I was just thinking... do they really need more than they have now? I don't think they'd have much reason to take any more women, considering one broodmother can give birth to thousands of darkspawn at a time. So maybe that won't be that big of an issue anymore.

There are other problems that arise from this arrangement, though. Like where they would live; the Deep Roads belong to the dwarves, unless they're willing to give some of their land up for the darkspawn, which I doubt. And the transaction of Grey Warden blood; they won't need to kill and kidnap Grey Wardens for their blood if a proper method of blood donation can be made.

In any case, like I said before, it would have been nice if the Architect could pop up for a nice long chat about all this. If the Wardens and the Architect are going to work together they will have to set the record straight.

Modifié par nranola, 23 mars 2010 - 02:42 .

[Addai]

What is the premise for the thinking that without an archdemon, darkspawn would be (or become) intelligent, sentient beings? Riordan calls them empty, soulless vessels.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

What is the premise for the thinking that without an archdemon, darkspawn would be (or become) intelligent, sentient beings? Riordan calls them empty, soulless vessels.

The Architect tells you that all he does is give them a resistance to the 'song'.  The 'song' is created by the Archdemons, it is what draws the darkspawn to them, and what causes them to follow the Archdemons on the blights. 

When the Architect cuts off their dependence on the song they become free.

Once they are free they develop intelligence and wills of their own.

There are lots of hints that they are already intelligent, anyway--just enslaved.  Your codex mentions that there have been recorded hurlok emissaries who spoke the human tongue, they are capable of forging weapons and armor, they are capable of learning magic, etc.

Enslavement removed, and they can use their intellect for more than finding the archdemons and killing people.

When the last Archdemon is slain, it will remove the song from them as sure as the joining.

Thus, intelligent darkspawn.

Except all of them.  At once.  And in the middle of a battle with humans dwarves and elves.  Where they will all learn that the other races are their enemies immediately. As opposed to over time, and away from humanity, where they might learn
to be benevolent or at least neutral toward the other races.

Modifié par krylo, 23 mars 2010 - 03:29 .

[Addai]

They attack humans (humanoids) whether or not there is an archdemon to lead them- ask the dwarves! The only difference the archdemon makes is organization. They *have* no intellect, apart from a few like the Architect who have made some sort of evolutionary leap.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 mars 2010 - 03:35 .

[Darkannex]

I couldn't convince myself to spare him. I was interested to see the result-but could simply not find myself agreeing. I cross-examined him closely, and came to the following conclusions :

1. He is horribly naive, and unconcerned about things of morality. Nothing in my playthrough showed he was 'sorry' about the Mother or her creation - just that he was locked in battle with her. (for control? Self defense? No reason stated)

2. He created the Mother. (see point 1). Someone that experiments so rashly using lives for fodder has no sympathy for me. If there had been an option like for Avernus to make him use his skills for betterment - perhaps. But unlike Avernus I had no control over the Architect to keep him in line.

3. He caused the last Blight through experimenting ( see point 2)

4. Darkspawn still recreate by the sacrifice of human/dwarf/elven lives. We let a bunch of intelligent Darkspawn run about who still need us to propegate?

5. Broodmothers. Hespith still haunts me to this day. I will NOT allow anything to create such atrocities.

6. Future Blights. There are 2 more old gods to go. Supposedly the Architect can stop them. He did a great job stopping the last one, didn't he?



... darn. I just talked myself out of sparing him again >.<

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

They attack humans (humanoids) whether or not there is an archdemon to lead them- ask the dwarves! The only difference the archdemon makes is organization. They *have* no intellect, apart from a few like the Architect who have made some sort of evolutionary leap.

The song is still present while the Archdemons/Old Gods are sleeping.  It's what leads the darkspawn to them and urges the darkspawn to seek them out.

[Addai]

So why do they do raids on human lands? Recall that at the beginning no one even thinks that it is a Blight.

Edit:  And recall that they are always required to kidnap/violate humans, dwarves and elves in order to reproduce.  Even if they have some intelligence, it is on the level of parasites.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 mars 2010 - 04:03 .

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

So why do they do raids on human lands? Recall that at the beginning no one even thinks that it is a Blight.

Ask the Architect, I'm not an expert on the darkspawn.

I'm just telling you confirmed game canon here.

Questioning it doesn't help.

The song (which older wardens can hear) comes from the Archdemons even while they are asleep.  This is right in the game information, and heavily hinted at even BEFORE Awakenings.  Riordin: "The oddity isn't that it takes so long between blights, it's that they succeed at all."

The song controls the darkspawn and drives out any semblence of free will or thought.  Per Architect.  No reason to believe he is lying.

Once the song is removed the darkspawn become capable of free will and thought.  Again, per architect.  No reason to believe he is lying.

It then follows that, unless there is some source of the song BEYOND the Archdemons, upon the death of the seventh Archdemon all darkspawn will become free, as the disciples, or be driven mad, as the mother, by the sudden 'silence'.

Edit: A parasitic nature makes no claim to how great or small a creature's intelligence could be.  Claiming otherwise would be like me to come in here saying I'm a vegan and all you meat-eaters are obviously no more intelligent than a standard rat, dirty omnivore it is.  Or that I'm an omnivore, and all you herbivores are no more intelligent than cows.

You can argue such a nature is, by itself, reason enough to kill the Architect, and I wouldn't argue.  How broodmothers are created is TERRIBLE.  However, to argue it as a measure if intelligence is just silly.

Modifié par krylo, 23 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[Darkannex]

I see it as akin as to letting a cannibal go free - because he is intelligent.

ala Silence of the Lambs.