1316 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

*Fetches a bowl of popcorn and settles back in her chair to read*



Considering the non-entity Morrigan's child has been perhaps none of our choices will matter in the long run. After all, our PC will be long dead before future Blights/results of Architect's experiments come to light. Perhaps sparing him was just another one of those hard choices you make that won't really matter in the end things.



And I still got the Alec's knights being an order for a millenium epilogue card so obviously it really doesn't have much of an effect either way. Humanity won't be wiped out suddenly in the next blight unless that happens 1000 years from the current time.



And considering my PC would be dust at that point...yea not a heavy concern on her mind.

[Addai]

[quote]krylo wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

So why do they do raids on human lands? Recall that at the beginning no one even thinks that it is a Blight.[/quote]Ask the Architect, I'm not an expert on the darkspawn.

I'm just telling you confirmed game canon here.

Questioning it doesn't help.[/quote][/quote]
We're all discussing game lore here, or do you think you're the only one?  I quoted Riordan saying the darkspawn is "an empty, soulless vessel."  How much sentience can such a being entail?  They attack humanoid creatures even though such attacks have no bearing on finding and freeing old gods.  The song drives them to seek out the old gods, but what is driving them to such destruction?


[quote]The song controls the darkspawn and drives out any semblence of free will or thought.  Per Architect.  No reason to believe he is lying.[/quote]
Perhaps because he is trying to manipulate you into willingly cooperating in humanity's defeat?


[quote]Edit: A parasitic nature makes no claim to how great or small a creature's intelligence could be.  Claiming otherwise would be like me to come in here saying I'm a vegan and all you meat-eaters are obviously no more intelligent than a standard rat, dirty omnivore it is.  Or that I'm an omnivore, and all you herbivores are no more intelligent than cows.[/quote]
The point is that regardless of sentience or intelligence, the darkspawn need to be eradicated.  Their existence is incompatible with human/dwarven/elven life.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 mars 2010 - 04:41 .

[sylvanaerie]

[

The point is that regardless of sentience or intelligence, the darkspawn need to be eradicated.  Their existence is incompatible with human/dwarven/elven life.[/quote]


Thank you, thats what I was trying to say but failed miserably.  Thanks Addai

[Darkannex]

There's a good correlation to Morrigan's child actually. Each is a very ambivalent choice.

I personally let my experiences guide me in it. Morrigan became a friend to me in game, and ultimately I believed that in the end...that friendship would win out over everything else. I believed that her time spent with me and our party would dent the perceptions and things that Flemeth had done/taught - and that she would find out that not all had to be weak that had sentiment.



The Architect was a bit of a different colored horse. I had no teachable moments or endearing conversations with him. I had lots of experimented and dead bodies in his wake and a firm understanding of what Darkspawn need to do to survive and sustain themselves.



But it really is a good correlation Kudos for that!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Edit: A parasitic nature makes no claim to how great or small a creature's intelligence could be.  Claiming otherwise would be like me to come in here saying I'm a vegan and all you meat-eaters are obviously no more intelligent than a standard rat, dirty omnivore it is.  Or that I'm an omnivore, and all you herbivores are no more intelligent than cows.

The point is that regardless of sentience or intelligence, the darkspawn need to be eradicated.  Their existence is incompatible with human/dwarven/elven life.

Ha, elves could argue that humans need to be eradicated because clearly, they are incompatible. Because humans supposedely stole their culture, their magic, destroyed their immortality and enslaved them. Very parasite like.
 

[Darkannex]

Except humans don't need elves to sustain their population - just do their menial chores.
You are overlooking the single most salient point here.
DARKSPAWN require human/elf/dwarf bodies to sustain/populate.
It's all well to speak of erudite concepts-but at the bottom of the BS pile there is that important fact staring out at us.

Modifié par Darkannex, 23 mars 2010 - 04:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darkannex wrote...

Except humans don't need elves to sustain their population - just do their menial chores.
You are overlooking the single most salient point here.
DARKSPAWN require human/elf/dwarf bodies to sustain/populate.
It's all well to speak of erudite concepts-but at the bottom of the BS pile there is that important fact staring out at us.

I am not overlooking it, I have already stated my opinion on this before.

A broodmother can give birth to thousands, so their need for reproduction is not as urgent as ours. And having an intelligent darkspawn race taking a few women, while regretable, is preferrable to having to face 2 blights and then have them become intelligent anyways.

It's very easy to say "let's wipe them all out". The reality is such a thing would be either impossible, or to costly that it wouldn't be worth it. So instead of running away from the inevitable, the best thing to do is find and choose the least painful option.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
A broodmother can give birth to thousands, so their need for reproduction is not as urgent as ours. And having an intelligent darkspawn race taking a few women, while regretable, is preferrable to having to face 2 blights and then have them become intelligent anyways. 

I'm so glad you're at least willing to acknowledge that it is "regrettable."

Honestly, I can't engage in moral equivalence arguments, whereby cockroaches are just a misunderstood life form driven by urges not unlike our own and therefore they must be allowed to move in and share living space for the good of all.

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

Except humans don't need elves to sustain their population - just do their menial chores.
You are overlooking the single most salient point here.
DARKSPAWN require human/elf/dwarf bodies to sustain/populate.
It's all well to speak of erudite concepts-but at the bottom of the BS pile there is that important fact staring out at us.

I am not overlooking it, I have already stated my opinion on this before.

A broodmother can give birth to thousands, so their need for reproduction is not as urgent as ours. And having an intelligent darkspawn race taking a few women, while regretable, is preferrable to having to face 2 blights and then have them become intelligent anyways.

It's very easy to say "let's wipe them all out". The reality is such a thing would be either impossible, or to costly that it wouldn't be worth it. So instead of running away from the inevitable, the best thing to do is find and choose the least painful option.

Except they won't stop at "Just a few women" they will take what they want/need regardless.  Just cause they can make 1000s with one broodmother doesn't stop them from taking more unless there is some kind of prohibitive agent at work here (which I haven't seen in game at all).  The only prohibitive agent seems to be the Wardens/Dwarves fighting them tooth and nail to stop them.  Not working yes but then thats the nature of dark fantasy. Some times there are no easy answers.

[Darkannex]

It is also easy to say that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Except sometimes when those few affect/are you.
It is the same choice as the Dwarves and Golems. A no-choice choice. What was once a program completely supported by recruits, became a forced choice for those not deemed 'needed' for other things.
History is full of such choices, and very few of them end out morally or factually  in the black.

Modifié par Darkannex, 23 mars 2010 - 04:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
A broodmother can give birth to thousands, so their need for reproduction is not as urgent as ours. And having an intelligent darkspawn race taking a few women, while regretable, is preferrable to having to face 2 blights and then have them become intelligent anyways. 

I'm so glad you're at least willing to acknowledge that it is "regrettable."

Honestly, I can't engage in moral equivalence arguments, whereby cockroaches are just a misunderstood life form driven by urges not unlike our own and therefore they must be allowed to move in and share living space for the good of all.

Your attempts at sarcasm, to portray me as a heartless shrew, are very unnecessary.

@ Addai and Sylvanerie
I never said we would give women to the darkspawn on a silver platter. I already said before. They would have to fight for them. And we will defend ourselves. 
Because as I explained before, I would rather fight a reasonable enemy that can show some principles and can abide to some norms, instead of facing a horde of mindless slaves who want nothing except exterminate all life.
I never said we would live together happily ever after. We can barely do that with other humans, what could possibly make me think we can do it with darkspawn?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mars 2010 - 05:01 .

[sylvanaerie]

Except the Architect isn't being reasonable. He has this veneer of politeness to hide that he has no concept of reason or morality. He is a darkspawn, an intelligent darkspawn but IMO that makes him more not less dangerous.

[Darkannex]

So a possible finite end to Blights (after 2 more) is less than desirable than a contest that goes on with no end in sight?

I am not attacking you, but commenting on this idea that somehow having an endless conflict would be preferable to 2 more known catastrophies.



At least with the blight you deal with a known quantity. Darkspawn, archdemon, Grey Wardens.

What you are proposing rolls out into infinity. Or at least until evolution either makes Darkspawn not need us for fodder, or they die because they can't get the fodder they need.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Your attempts at sarcasm, to portray me as a heartless shrew, are very unnecessary.

It's not sarcasm, although it is rather rich for you to speak of broodmothers in such terms.  The darkspawn=cockroaches, only more deadly and who breed inside humanoid females.  Yet I am supposed to consider the possibility of just letting them get on with it?  Not just letting them, but helping them?

@ Addai and Sylvanerie
I never said we would give women to the darkspawn on a silver platter. I already said before. They would have to fight for them. And we will defend ourselves. 
Because as I explained before, I would rather fight a reasonable enemy that can show some principles and can abide to some norms, instead of facing a horde of mindless slaves who want nothing except exterminate all life.
I never said we would live together happily ever after. We can barely do that with other humans, what could possibly make me think we can do it with darkspawn?

Even allowing the idea that darkspawn can become as you believe they can (only taking the Architect's word for it, and why should I do that??), I don't understand what sort of military strategy it is to help your enemy become more organized and better equipped.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 mars 2010 - 05:06 .

[sylvanaerie]

I have to admit he's an excellent character, easily one of my favorites in Awakening because he is the subject of such interesting debate on the forums.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darkannex wrote...

So a possible finite end to Blights (after 2 more) is less than desirable than a contest that goes on with no end in sight?
I am not attacking you, but commenting on this idea that somehow having an endless conflict would be preferable to 2 more known catastrophies.

At least with the blight you deal with a known quantity. Darkspawn, archdemon, Grey Wardens.
What you are proposing rolls out into infinity. Or at least until evolution either makes Darkspawn not need us for fodder, or they die because they can't get the fodder they need.

2 catastrophes that might end all life, I will remind you. Unless you can guarantee us a vcitory over them. I can't.

And like Krylo argued, chances are once the archdemons are dead, the songs will cease and the darksapwn will be free anyways. Thus starting an infinite war anyways. So there is no difference, except your choice will cause the 2 bligths to start. And once the song is over, the darkspawn will have no leader to guide them,.

My choice has the slight possiblity that the blights will be over. And if not, at least we have an ally against the blights. And ocne the song is over, the darksapwn can be guided by a leader instead of going mad and rapant.

Anyways, I have to go now.
Cheers!

[Addai]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I have to admit he's an excellent character, easily one of my favorites in Awakening because he is the subject of such interesting debate on the forums.

You mean the Architect?  I agree, and I'm disappointed that we a) didn't get more of him in Awakening and what we got felt a bit haphazard and in some respects at odds with what you see in The Calling; and we got the option to kill him, meaning he will probably not figure in future stories.  I suppose there could be an Architect 2.0 or Utha could still turn up, since in my game she runs off, though I hear that others saw her die??

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

@ Addai and Sylvanerie
I never said we would give women to the darkspawn on a silver platter. I already said before. They would have to fight for them. And we will defend ourselves. 
Because as I explained before, I would rather fight a reasonable enemy that can show some principles and can abide to some norms, instead of facing a horde of mindless slaves who want nothing except exterminate all life.
I never said we would live together happily ever after. We can barely do that with other humans, what could possibly make me think we can do it with darkspawn?

Even allowing the idea that darkspawn can become as you believe they can (only taking the Architect's word for it, and why should I do that??), I don't understand what sort of military strategy it is to help your enemy become more organized and better equipped.

They are going to be intelligent anyhow. And they already can forge weapons, it's in the codex. And they use strategies in the blight.
It's just delaying the inevitable. The darskpawn will become free one way or the other. Better to give them a reason to be benevolent, instead of making them hate us more.

Now I really gtg.

 

[Godak]

Addai67 wrote...

The darkspawn=cockroaches, only more deadly and who breed inside humanoid females. 

They are nothing like cockroaches. They have had a semblance of free will stolen from them, and all the Architect wants is to give them that free will back. If you help the Architect, you see that they do not try to enroach on human/elven/dwarven lands. They stay to themselves.

Addai67 wrote...

Yet I am supposed to consider the possibility of just letting them get on with it?  Not just letting them, but helping them?

Yes. If you can save hundreds of thousands of lives, why not?

Addai67

Even allowing the idea that darkspawn can become as you believe they can (only taking the Architect's word for it, and why should I do that??), I don't understand what sort of military strategy it is to help your enemy become more organized and better equipped.

Again, the ending shows that the darkspawn are perfectly content to stay underground, out of the other races way. The one known darkspawn who DOES stay above ground does nothing but help others. Where are you getting this "enemy" bit?

Modifié par Godak, 23 mars 2010 - 05:14 .

[sylvanaerie]

Addai67 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I have to admit he's an excellent character, easily one of my favorites in Awakening because he is the subject of such interesting debate on the forums.

You mean the Architect?  I agree, and I'm disappointed that we a) didn't get more of him in Awakening and what we got felt a bit haphazard and in some respects at odds with what you see in The Calling; and we got the option to kill him, meaning he will probably not figure in future stories.  I suppose there could be an Architect 2.0 or Utha could still turn up, since in my game she runs off, though I hear that others saw her die??

Yea while Justice and I were busy killing the Architect, I think Anders/Nathaniel were dealing with Utha cause I turned around and there was her body.  By that point I was so fed up with things though I was ready to be done with it all.  If there was a "nuke em all" option I would have tossed the grenade and ran.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
2 catastrophes that might end all life, I will remind you. Unless you can guarantee us a vcitory over them. I can't.

And like Krylo argued, chances are once the archdemons are dead, the songs will cease and the darksapwn will be free anyways. Thus starting an infinite war anyways. So there is no difference, except your choice will cause the 2 bligths to start. And once the song is over, the darkspawn will have no leader to guide them,.

Then why say that it is the archdemon's song that is driving darkspawn to seek the destruction of the other races?  That is, at least, what I understand krylo to be arguing.

[sylvanaerie]

Godak wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The darkspawn=cockroaches, only more deadly and who breed inside humanoid females. 

They are nothing like cockroaches. They have had a semblance of free will stolen from them, and all the Architect wants is to give them that free will back. If you help the Architect, you see that they do not try to enroach on human/elven/dwarven lands. They stay to themselves.

Addai67 wrote...

Yet I am supposed to consider the possibility of just letting them get on with it?  Not just letting them, but helping them?

Yes. If you can save hundreds of thousands of lives, why not?

Addai67

Even allowing the idea that darkspawn can become as you believe they can (only taking the Architect's word for it, and why should I do that??), I don't understand what sort of military strategy it is to help your enemy become more organized and better equipped.

Again, the ending shows that the darkspawn are perfectly content to stay underground, out of the other races way. The one known darkspawn who DOES stay above ground does nothing but help others. Where are you getting this "enemy" bit?

I think no matter what choice you make you get a "its gonna be alright" answer (see my earlier post) I killed the Architect and left the messenger's fate up to Garavel and things turned out well in the arling anyway (at least for the next 1000 years).  Neither of them was mentioned and the darkspawn just were gone back to the deep roads anyway.

[Godak]

Addai67 wrote...

Then why say that it is the archdemon's song that is driving darkspawn to seek the destruction of the other races?  That is, at least, what I understand krylo to be arguing.

The organizes the darkspawn. Without it, they aren't as organized, but still dangerous, and they are still compelled to do violent acts. The Architect wants to give them free will, which seems to have calmed the darkspawn significantly.

[Hrodberht]

[quote]tmelange wrote...

[quote]SDNcN wrote...

*snip*


Darkspwn blood, not archdemon blood was used in the original joining with Duncan. We were tasked to find 3 vials of it. And, of course, there is the issue of the magic, which the darkspawn may or may not be able to replicate.

.[/quote]

Actually, Riordan informs you that the secret ingredient to the joining potion is a drop of preserved archdemon blood, which is mixed with darkspawn blood..

[Godak]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Godak wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The darkspawn=cockroaches, only more deadly and who breed inside humanoid females. 

They are nothing like cockroaches. They have had a semblance of free will stolen from them, and all the Architect wants is to give them that free will back. If you help the Architect, you see that they do not try to enroach on human/elven/dwarven lands. They stay to themselves.

Addai67 wrote...

Yet I am supposed to consider the possibility of just letting them get on with it?  Not just letting them, but helping them?

Yes. If you can save hundreds of thousands of lives, why not?

Addai67

Even allowing the idea that darkspawn can become as you believe they can (only taking the Architect's word for it, and why should I do that??), I don't understand what sort of military strategy it is to help your enemy become more organized and better equipped.

Again, the ending shows that the darkspawn are perfectly content to stay underground, out of the other races way. The one known darkspawn who DOES stay above ground does nothing but help others. Where are you getting this "enemy" bit?

I think no matter what choice you make you get a "its gonna be alright" answer (see my earlier post) I killed the Architect and left the messenger's fate up to Garavel and things turned out well in the arling anyway (at least for the next 1000 years).  Neither of them was mentioned and the darkspawn just were gone back to the deep roads anyway.

What exactly happened in that ending? Did they just return to the Deep Roads, or did they actually stop attacking? If you side with the Architect, it isn't just Amaranthine that's safe, it's the dwarven kingdoms as well.