1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Ildaron]

The role of a Gray Warden is to wipe out the Blight at all costs. If it means burning down a village, sacrificing a dozen, or even 1000 lives, that is the duty of the Gray Wardens ending the blight.



For the most part I see the Architect no different than Avenus in Warden's Keep in fact if the two were working with one another they likely could discover a way to make the Wardens both immune to the calling as well as freeing the Darkspawn.



So yes I let him live the Architect is an ally that helped me with my goals.



Now even deeper into my opinion. Brood mothers I believe are an archdemon creation. A way to mass produce a large army. Their creation in itself appears magical (male eats darkspawn flesh becomes a ghoul a female a broodmother). If so then Darkspawn may be able to produce normally, however in their current state as puppets that isn't desirable, as at a slow rate of production an Archdemon would not be able to throw wave after wave of minions at their enemies.

[Darkannex]

Again, there is no promise that the Architect can, or even would stop the Blights. Or that the Darkspawn-once free of the Song would remain impassive. We have only the Architect's word on that - and how can HE pretend to speak for all those 'enslaved' Darkspawn when they will have free will?



I don't think he can. What I CAN know for certain -

Darkspawn need us for fodder-hence we are a resource that they will continue to crave and abuse (see humans and oil? Endangered species?)

Having free will make them even more difficult enemies.



And while it MAY be inevitable that once the blights end that free will can come to them - steps can be taken to eradicate that threat before it fully happens. Again - do we let cannibals go free because they are intelligent or full of free will? That might make for good "True Blood" Fanfiction, but not in this universe.



I would rather use this time to strengthen the Dwarves and pursue the Darkspawn as never before pre-Blight. To eradicate them NOW, before they become either more powerful, intelligent, or organized.

[Addai]

[quote]Godak wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

The darkspawn=cockroaches, only more deadly and who breed inside humanoid females. [/quote]

They are nothing like cockroaches. They have had a semblance of free will stolen from them, and all the Architect wants is to give them that free will back. If you help the Architect, you see that they do not try to enroach on human/elven/dwarven lands. They stay to themselves.[/quote][/quote]
The darkspawn retreat and grow quiet in the epilogue, regardless of whether or not you help the Architect.
[quote]
[quote]Addai67 wrote...

Yet I am supposed to consider the possibility of just letting them get on with it?  Not just letting them, but helping them?[/quote]

Yes. If you can save hundreds of thousands of lives, why not?[/quote]
I am hearing contradictory things here.  Others defending helping the Architect say that the goal is not to end such destruction, but to replace the archdemons' influence with that of sentient darkspawn leadership.  Just choosing which enemy faction you would rather fight.  I'm not sure I'm clear on what people see as the goal behind helping the Architect, or how you envision it making any sort of difference.  Nor do I understand where the thinking comes from that it is the archdemon's song that is behind the darkspawn ravaging any non-darkspawn life they see.

All in all, it comes down to a rather startling amount of trust you place in a talking darkspawn.

[clafount]

If you spare the Architect the epilogue says that the dwarves find the deep roads to be much quieter. I thought that was interesting and perhaps telling...



If you don't spare him, they continue to fight at about the same level, I think.

[clafount]

Addai67 wrote...

The darkspawn retreat and grow quiet in the epilogue, regardless of whether or not you help the Architect.


I don't think that's true. On my latest playthrough I killed the Architect and I thought the epilogue said something like the dwarves had to continue fighting the darkspawn in the deep roads. I don't remember the exact wording but it was different than the text for when I spared him.

Modifié par clafount, 23 mars 2010 - 05:28 .

[sylvanaerie]

Godak wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Godak wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The darkspawn=cockroaches, only more deadly and who breed inside humanoid females. 

They are nothing like cockroaches. They have had a semblance of free will stolen from them, and all the Architect wants is to give them that free will back. If you help the Architect, you see that they do not try to enroach on human/elven/dwarven lands. They stay to themselves.

Addai67 wrote...

Yet I am supposed to consider the possibility of just letting them get on with it?  Not just letting them, but helping them?

Yes. If you can save hundreds of thousands of lives, why not?

Addai67

Even allowing the idea that darkspawn can become as you believe they can (only taking the Architect's word for it, and why should I do that??), I don't understand what sort of military strategy it is to help your enemy become more organized and better equipped.

Again, the ending shows that the darkspawn are perfectly content to stay underground, out of the other races way. The one known darkspawn who DOES stay above ground does nothing but help others. Where are you getting this "enemy" bit?

I think no matter what choice you make you get a "its gonna be alright" answer (see my earlier post) I killed the Architect and left the messenger's fate up to Garavel and things turned out well in the arling anyway (at least for the next 1000 years).  Neither of them was mentioned and the darkspawn just were gone back to the deep roads anyway.

What exactly happened in that ending? Did they just return to the Deep Roads, or did they actually stop attacking? If you side with the Architect, it isn't just Amaranthine that's safe, it's the dwarven kingdoms as well.

All I remember with the dwarves mentioned was House Helmi mounted an expedition to take back Kal'hirol and Orzammar/Kal'hirol were reunited.  Nothing about raids on Dwarves/Orzammar I can recall.  Course I was tired and kinda in a pissy mood when I finished (that expression on my PC's face kind of matched my mood) and I really didn't read that closely but mostly it ended on an "I'm satisified note" and being I like "happy" endings thats hard to come by in Dark Fantasy epilogues.  So for me, I got a good one I think.

[Godak]

Darkannex wrote...

Again, there is no promise that the Architect can, or even would stop the Blights. Or that the Darkspawn-once free of the Song would remain impassive. We have only the Architect's word on that - and how can HE pretend to speak for all those 'enslaved' Darkspawn when they will have free will?

Not true. The darkspawn that the Architect frees will be darkspawn that won't be under the Archdemon's control. While it may technically be a Blight, it won't be as severe as Blights in the past.

Darkannex wrote...

Darkspawn need us for fodder-hence we are a resource that they will continue to crave and abuse (see humans and oil? Endangered species?)
Having free will make them even more difficult enemies.

We don't know that. It may be possible for darkspawn to reproduce normally. Broodmothers seem to be tools of war for mass production, as has already been mentioned.

Darkannex wrote...

And while it MAY be inevitable that once the blights end that free will can come to them - steps can be taken to eradicate that threat before it fully happens. Again - do we let cannibals go free because they are intelligent or full of free will? That might make for good "True Blood" Fanfiction, but not in this universe.

That's an awful analogy. Cannibals eat others of the same race, an act that is by definition harmful. The darkspawn existing is not. Again, the one darkspawn who we KNOW is on the surface has been nothing but helpful.

Darkannex wrote...

I would rather use this time to strengthen the Dwarves and pursue the Darkspawn as never before pre-Blight. To eradicate them NOW, before they become either more powerful, intelligent, or organized.

Won't that simply provoke them? I highly doubt the dwarves have the strength to defeat a massive dark spawn horde all on their own.

[Darkannex]

Ildaron wrote...

The role of a Gray Warden is to wipe out the Blight at all costs. If it means burning down a village, sacrificing a dozen, or even 1000 lives, that is the duty of the Gray Wardens ending the blight.

For the most part I see the Architect no different than Avenus in Warden's Keep in fact if the two were working with one another they likely could discover a way to make the Wardens both immune to the calling as well as freeing the Darkspawn.

So yes I let him live the Architect is an ally that helped me with my goals.

Now even deeper into my opinion. Brood mothers I believe are an archdemon creation. A way to mass produce a large army. Their creation in itself appears magical (male eats darkspawn flesh becomes a ghoul a female a broodmother). If so then Darkspawn may be able to produce normally, however in their current state as puppets that isn't desirable, as at a slow rate of production an Archdemon would not be able to throw wave after wave of minions at their enemies.

There are a lot of 'hopes' in these ideas. Not at all in keeping with what is shown in the game. Avernus and the Architect both subscribe to the theory that the ends justify the means. There is never any instance of the Architect showing remorse or sorrow for what he has done. He claims that all the GW brought to him were already dead-but we know of one instance where there was a LIVE GW in the tunnels where they were taken to be experimented on. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. What about Staefan? Not a GW, but he was hanging out in the birdcage there for likely experimentation. 

What about the new dead bodies lying in the poison cloud at the Architect's lab? Already dead and there for decoration? 

We are not dealing with a moral creature. Whether he can 'learn' morals is not something I am willing to bet the farm on, nor do I expect that he will be able to unite all these newly awakened Darkspawn that all of a sudden have free will. Only after freeing a FEW darkspawn look at all the chaos he created? 

And the role of the Grey Warden is up to interpretation. It is 'ending the Blight', or 'saving people from the blight' *see David Gaider's 'the calling' for this hair splitting analysis*. Different people ascribe different aspirations to the GW. All we know for SURE, is that GW are needed to kill the archdemon. 

Saying that you 'think' the broodmothers are an archedemon creation skips over the fact that they are present post archdemon. BM's are how Darkspawn are created. No other way is revealed to us. And the Broodmother creation is a lot more involved than simply eating tainted meat. 

[Godak]

Addai67 wrote...

All in all, it comes down to a rather startling amount of trust you place in a talking darkspawn.

It comes down to a choice: either I kill the only person I know who can possibly end the darkspawn threat, or I let the darkspawn continue to violently murder, knowing that I MIGHT have been able to do something. If the Architect does have schemes of world domination and what not, then I can kill him knowing that I at least gave him a chance.

[Addai]

.. you can kill him knowing that he got to where he is because of you. Good luck with that!

[Darkannex]

God I hate quotes :



Godak - what I am saying is that the Architect cannot vouch for free willed beings. He cannot claim to speak for them or know how they will act. He has already created mass chaos with just freeing SOME darkspawn. Freeing all of them?



Hoping that they can somehow copulate normally is a fallacy. We are given no reason to believe this is the case or can ever be. To think otherwise is very much a Chamberlain argument. You can hope all you want, but the fact is that they NEED us for reproduction purposes. There is NO evidence even hinting at alternate means of producing Darkspawn. If we are ever given that proof, I will retract this point and call it moot. Until then, no dice. This is essential and important to be noted.



And since darkspawn need us to survive, the cannibal analogy is correct. Until there is PROOF otherwise. Not hope, not supposition, but actual proof. They feed off us to survive. Nom nom nom.



And it may work or not. That's why I said support the dwarves. We've left them to fight the spawn on their own when there is no Blight. We need to stop ignoring them once the blight goes away.

[sylvanaerie]

Godak wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

All in all, it comes down to a rather startling amount of trust you place in a talking darkspawn.

It comes down to a choice: either I kill the only person I know who can possibly end the darkspawn threat, or I let the darkspawn continue to violently murder, knowing that I MIGHT have been able to do something. If the Architect does have schemes of world domination and what not, then I can kill him knowing that I at least gave him a chance.

The evidence so far would suggest that being free willed does not necessarily equate to reason or pacification.  Look at the way the darkspawn act in the game when you encounter groups of Architect vs Mother's broods.  They are just as willing to kill the PC as their enemy darkspawns. 

So do you want to deal with mindlessly violent creatures or hope for the best and get intelligent (maybe) peaceful creatures?  Nature dictates they are going to be violent.  Aside from the messenger I saw no evidence of reasonable darkspawn (Architect isn't reasonable he's polite, there's a huge difference).  Pragmatism drove my PC to kill the Architect. He can't promise that he can end the blights.  He has no control over what they do once the Darkspawn get their minds "freed".

[Godak]

Addai67 wrote...

.. you can kill him knowing that he got to where he is because of you. Good luck with that!

What's the difference? I can potentially stop two blights. Even if the Architect does turn out to be a villain, what would you rather fight? An Old God, or an intelligent darkspawn emissary? Priorities.

[Darkannex]

Godak wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

All in all, it comes down to a rather startling amount of trust you place in a talking darkspawn.

It comes down to a choice: either I kill the only person I know who can possibly end the darkspawn threat, or I let the darkspawn continue to violently murder, knowing that I MIGHT have been able to do something. If the Architect does have schemes of world domination and what not, then I can kill him knowing that I at least gave him a chance.

He can promise to end the Blight. I've seen nothing to show he can. I can promise to bring you to the moon, but I don't see that happening. While he can theorize that once they are immune from the song that the blights will stop, he has no proof this is so, it's just what he thinks will happen because HE no longer wants to start blights. Can he promise to find ALL the darkspawn and immunize them all? 

And you can kill him if you find him. I believe at the end if you spare him he makes himself quite scarce. the other GW's search and find nothing? (could be wrong here)

[Godak]

sylvanaerie wrote...

The evidence so far would suggest that being free willed does not necessarily equate to reason or pacification.  Look at the way the darkspawn act in the game when you encounter groups of Architect vs Mother's broods.  They are just as willing to kill the PC as their enemy darkspawns. 

Those darkspawn weren't "free willed" or "intelligent". They simply followed the Architect instead of the mother. The intelligent darkspawn are few and far between. He only had Utha to draw blood from. 

sylvanaerie wrote...

So do you want to deal with mindlessly violent creatures or hope for the best and get intelligent (maybe) peaceful creatures? 

Yes. If they end up being violent, what have we lost? Nothing, really. They still won't answer the archdemon's call, so that's less darkspawn who will swarm to the surface.

sylvanaerie wrote...

Nature dictates they are going to be violent.  Aside from the messenger I saw no evidence of reasonable darkspawn (Architect isn't reasonable he's polite, there's a huge difference).

 

Considering the fact that you just contradicted yourself, I'm very tempted to disagree.

sylvanaerie wrote...

Pragmatism drove my PC to kill the Architect. He can't promise that he can end the blights. 

...But he can make fewer darkspawn heed the archdemon's call. 

sylvanaerie wrote...

He has no control over what they do once the Darkspawn get their minds "freed".

I think that's the point the point of free will, is it not?

[Darkannex]

Godak - just to add some flavor-the Withered (an intelligent talking darkspawn), kicks a cowering and unarmed knight off the battlements to his death.  
Then says they want no more 'unneccessary' death? 

I know you aren't arguing that free will would make them pacifist hippies - but if I had a choice of enemies- I think I'd choose a mindless one over an intelligent one. 

[sylvanaerie]

Godak wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

The evidence so far would suggest that being free willed does not necessarily equate to reason or pacification.  Look at the way the darkspawn act in the game when you encounter groups of Architect vs Mother's broods.  They are just as willing to kill the PC as their enemy darkspawns. 

Those darkspawn weren't "free willed" or "intelligent". They simply followed the Architect instead of the mother. The intelligent darkspawn are few and far between. He only had Utha to draw blood from. 

Actually he had 12 wardens to pull from as well.

sylvanaerie wrote...

So do you want to deal with mindlessly violent creatures or hope for the best and get intelligent (maybe) peaceful creatures? 

Yes. If they end up being violent, what have we lost? Nothing, really. They still won't answer the archdemon's call, so that's less darkspawn who will swarm to the surface.

What have we lost? we lost an enemy much easier to deal with than free willed ones (see the posts on Ostagar about how the battle was lost due to Loghain/Cailan not understanding that they were being directed in a conscious manner vs the usual mindless raids)

sylvanaerie wrote...

Nature dictates they are going to be violent.  Aside from the messenger I saw no evidence of reasonable darkspawn (Architect isn't reasonable he's polite, there's a huge difference).

 

Considering the fact that you just contradicted yourself, I'm very tempted to disagree.

How have I contradicted myself? Nature dictates they willl be violent but I am willing to admit 1 or 2 may not be.  I should deal with thousands of free willed violent ones just on the off chance I will have 1 or 2 end up not?

sylvanaerie wrote...

Pragmatism drove my PC to kill the Architect. He can't promise that he can end the blights. 

...But he can make fewer darkspawn heed the archdemon's call. 

But those who don't heed it won't need the archdemon to think for themselves.

sylvanaerie wrote...

He has no control over what they do once the Darkspawn get their minds "freed".

I think that's the point the point of free will, is it not?

My point exactly.  He can't promise the darkspawn will cease to be a menace due to the very nature of their life cycle (beiing they are born from broodmothers) to their very violent natures.  All he can promise is MAYBE he can end the Archdemon's call on the spawns.  And really, HOW reliable is this talking darkspawn anyway? He is full of contradictions when you talk to him.

Bottom line, one dead Architect.  And it had no other effect on my ending at all different from those who spared him from what I am reading.

[Ildaron]

Darkannex wrote...

Ildaron wrote...

The role of a Gray Warden is to wipe out the Blight at all costs. If it means burning down a village, sacrificing a dozen, or even 1000 lives, that is the duty of the Gray Wardens ending the blight.

For the most part I see the Architect no different than Avenus in Warden's Keep in fact if the two were working with one another they likely could discover a way to make the Wardens both immune to the calling as well as freeing the Darkspawn.

So yes I let him live the Architect is an ally that helped me with my goals.

Now even deeper into my opinion. Brood mothers I believe are an archdemon creation. A way to mass produce a large army. Their creation in itself appears magical (male eats darkspawn flesh becomes a ghoul a female a broodmother). If so then Darkspawn may be able to produce normally, however in their current state as puppets that isn't desirable, as at a slow rate of production an Archdemon would not be able to throw wave after wave of minions at their enemies.

There are a lot of 'hopes' in these ideas. Not at all in keeping with what is shown in the game. Avernus and the Architect both subscribe to the theory that the ends justify the means. There is never any instance of the Architect showing remorse or sorrow for what he has done. He claims that all the GW brought to him were already dead-but we know of one instance where there was a LIVE GW in the tunnels where they were taken to be experimented on. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. What about Staefan? Not a GW, but he was hanging out in the birdcage there for likely experimentation. 

What about the new dead bodies lying in the poison cloud at the Architect's lab? Already dead and there for decoration? 

We are not dealing with a moral creature. Whether he can 'learn' morals is not something I am willing to bet the farm on, nor do I expect that he will be able to unite all these newly awakened Darkspawn that all of a sudden have free will. Only after freeing a FEW darkspawn look at all the chaos he created? 

And the role of the Grey Warden is up to interpretation. It is 'ending the Blight', or 'saving people from the blight' *see David Gaider's 'the calling' for this hair splitting analysis*. Different people ascribe different aspirations to the GW. All we know for SURE, is that GW are needed to kill the archdemon. 

Saying that you 'think' the broodmothers are an archedemon creation skips over the fact that they are present post archdemon. BM's are how Darkspawn are created. No other way is revealed to us. And the Broodmother creation is a lot more involved than simply eating tainted meat. 

And are the Grey Warden's Moral? Run around pick pocketing and kill the prisoner in the cage in Ostgar. Duncan will tell you not to get caught. The use of blood magic? Acceptable to Grey Wardens. Dangerous Malifcars running free, not the concerns of the Grey Wardens.

The Grey Wardens being concerned of blights first and foremost is something very much shown in Origins, whatever it takes, whatever the cost is a Grey Warden thing. Indvisual Wardens may aspire to something more noble (such as Alisitar and my Elf Warden when he saved Armathe rather than the Keep), however that seems to be the exception from what I have seen.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

We're all discussing game lore here, or do you think you're the only one?

I think I may be the only one who's taking game canon, as opposed to blind--if understandable--hatred of the darkspawn, into consideration given the arguments.

You can't argue that the darkspawn have no intelligence or sentience, given the codex says flat out that the disciples are not the first talking darkspawn to be met.  You can't argue that the song doesn't control the darkspawn given everything that happens in Awakening--unless you have compelling evidence/reasons that the Architect would have lied about how his reverse joining works.

Can you even point to a single instance in everything we know of Thedas of a non-sentient creature being granted sentience?  Binding a spirit/soul to an animal/rock/corpse doesn't count, as that's not giving the animal/rock/corpse sentience, it's giving the spirit/soul a body.

As far as we know giving sentience to a non-sentient being is utterly impossible.  There are no intelligent cat familiars walking around.  There's no talking ferrets.  The closest are the mabari, and that took the mages (dog) generations of magical dog breeding, and they're no smarter than, perhaps, a monkey or parrot.  Maybe a dolphin.

The idea that the Darkspawn have no inherit sentience/sapience and that the Architect can, with apparently very little effort and a little bit of GW blood, just grant sentience where none existed is completely unfounded.

His explanation is the only thing that even makes sense given the world we're operating in.

I quoted Riordan saying the darkspawn is "an empty, soulless vessel."  How much sentience can such a being entail?

Riordin isn't the codex, or the narrator.  He doesn't know everything about darkspawn, and his words don't even mean anything, really.  Do the dwarves have souls? Why are they so detached from the fade if they do? Or are they just like Darkspawn who happen to lack the taint?  Or the concept of a 'soul' something that is only believed in but doesn't actually exist in Thedas?

Further: We know, if we bother to read our codexes, that even WITHOUT being freed, the Darkspawn have shown measures of intelligence if not sapience.  Speaking emisaries.

And how do you propose that a non-sentient being builds camps, and forges, and uses tools?

Modern anthropology and science would call the darkspawn intelligent, even without the Architect, without even a moment of doubt.  They use tools, they are organized, they have leaders, they keep track of kills. 

Darkspawn ARE intelligent.  They always have been.  Even in Origins.

This isn't me postulating or making things up.  This is the codex speaking.  It's canon.

They attack humanoid creatures even though such attacks have no bearing on finding and freeing old gods.  The song drives them to seek out the old gods, but what is driving them to such destruction?

The song most likely drives them to attack others as well.  Perhaps to gain more broodmothers, so they have more darkspawn to search better.  Perhaps because the humans are too close to entrances to the dark roads near their encampments and the song drives them to jealously protect all their findings.

I don't know the specifics.

What I do know is that the messenger proves that deprived of the song at least SOME darkspawn choose peace over violence.  In fact most of the darkspawn disciples you meet who aren't in the process of fighting already tend to say that they don't want to fight you.   It's repeated so many times in the game (even if it is as a trick once), combined with the epilogue, that I find it exceedingly hard to believe that darkspawn lack the potential to be a relatively peaceful race.

And I know that it is only the darkspawn who are still attached to the song that continue to mindlessly assault every person they come in contact with.

Those are two very large pieces of supporting evidence toward the Architect's claims about the song.

The point is that regardless of sentience or intelligence, the darkspawn need to be eradicated.  Their existence is incompatible with human/dwarven/elven life.

Then make that argument.

As I said, I'd have no issue with this argument, given it was made on the basis of their reproduction.  I may not agree, but I can respect that where x = moral value of brood mothers and y = moral value of genocide, you believe x > y and I believe y > x.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai and Sylvanerie
I never
said we would give women to the darkspawn on a silver platter. I
already said before. They would have to fight for them. And we will
defend ourselves. 

Honestly, I'm not sure I could say the same.

If it would mean creating actual peace with the darkspawn (in so much as peace can ever exist between two groups), I think I'd be ok with deciding that being sold to the darkspawn is the new punishment for truly terrible maleficars.  Just make them tranquil first.  They aren't really people at that point, anyway.  If the rite of tranquility can be performed on anyone (all humans have a connection to the fade, I'm not sure why we couldn't cut it off for non mages too), I might even be ok with making it the punishment for serial killers, or the very rare female rapist.

Can't say I'd be happy about it, but when given the choice between the deaths of thousands or putting a few of society's worst criminals into a living hell... well, I'm going to choose the latter.  

Neither's good, but I see the latter as less bad.

Modifié par krylo, 23 mars 2010 - 06:09 .

[Roynalf]

I thought that he could be great help at against the Mother

[Godak]

Darkannex wrote...



Godak - just to add some flavor-the Withered (an intelligent talking darkspawn), kicks a cowering and unarmed knight off the battlements to his death.

Then says they want no more 'unneccessary' death?



I know you aren't arguing that free will would make them pacifist hippies - but if I had a choice of enemies- I think I'd choose a mindless one over an intelligent one.

If we recognize that darkspawn are still violent after becoming intelligent, we must also recognize that they started a war within their own race. If you are of the "darkspawn are bad" party, you can't help but recognize the fact that darkspawning killing each other is a good thing.



@sylvanaerie: how does the Architect contradict himself?

[clafount]

krylo wrote...
Honestly, I'm not sure I could say the same.

If it would mean creating actual peace with the darkspawn (in so much as peace can ever exist between two groups), I think I'd be ok with deciding that being sold to the darkspawn is the new punishment for truly terrible maleficars.  Just make them tranquil first.  They aren't really people at that point, anyway.  If the rite of tranquility can be performed on anyone (all humans have a connection to the fade, I'm not sure why we couldn't cut it off for non mages too), I might even be ok with making it the punishment for serial killers, or the very rare female rapist.

Can't say I'd be happy about it, but when given the choice between the deaths of thousands or putting a few of society's worst criminals into a living hell... well, I'm going to choose the latter.  

Neither's good, but I see the latter as less bad.

You had me until this. This is just so morally reprehensible on every level for me *shudder* Especially since it is a fate only females would face. I just can't even fathom how this would work or even be ok with anyone.

[sylvanaerie]

@ Godak



He tells you he sent the delegation to Vigil's keep to peacefully seek an alliance. I don't think peace was demonstrated with "Kill the others capture the warden" and the Withered kicking a helpless cowering guard off the tower battlements.



He tells you the GWs were brought to him dead. That is quite obviously NOT so since you find one of them having been experimented on and alive in the mines. (Then dies moments later).



He can't fulfill his promise of ending the blights cause...what he's gonna innoculate THOUSANDS of darkspawn using GW blood? How does he plan to accomplish that?



Its unreasonable to expect him to live up to what he promises. And we don't get enough dialogue with him to find out what he plans to do.



He says "I'm sorry I don't want to be your enemy" but if the dumb ass knew anything about my PC he would know knocking me out, stealing my gear and harming me and my friends doing Maker knows what to us in the interim was being friendly...huh...well we got very different ideas of enemy vs friendship.



This either smacks of contradiction or poor attention to detail in writing. Or maybe they left him deliberately ambiguous to spark all these conversations on the forum boards. I still say he's one helluva interesting character.

[krylo]

clafount wrote...

You had me until this. This is just so morally reprehensible on
every level for me *shudder* Especially since it is a fate only females
would face. I just can't even fathom how this would work or even be ok
with anyone.

Think of it this way:

A woman kills your family.

Your choice:

A) She gets tortured forever, and then there is peace.

 She is executed, and then there is a raid and dozens of innocent people die.

Your choice, whatever it is, is then repeated millions upon millions of times.

Which do you choose?

Edit: I fully admit that it is STILL morally reprehensible to do it, but I'm an 'ends justify the means' utilitarian type.

Well, sometimes.

Modifié par krylo, 23 mars 2010 - 06:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Since the point has been addressed very well by Krylo, I won't be redundant.
Just a quick overview of what he is saying, that is proven in game, without even quoting the Architect.

- The darkspawn are driven by the song. The Mother, the codexes in Origins, The Wardens and even ruck say as much.
- The source of the song is the old Gods, hence why the darksapwn find them. Again, said in Origins.
- No old Gods = no song. (Unless there is another source for the song. But it's pretty much determined that the old gods are the source).
- No song = Silence. The Mother speaking.
- Silence = Either the darkspawn become intelligent and have free will, like the Disciples. The Mother says so when she is speaking about the First.
Or they become insane like the Mother.

So logically, that means that when the last Old God is killed, there would be no song. Which means silence. Which means that the darkspawn will become intelligent or insane with or without the Architect.
Notive I didn't even quote the Architect in this.

As for "you don't know if the Architect can stop the bligh fopr sure". Of course I don't and I plan to find out if he can or can't. Even the slightest chance of aborting the blights before they begin is worth the risk imo.
Killing the Architect in the lair is irreversible. Sparing him is.

krylo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai and Sylvanerie
I never
said we would give women to the darkspawn on a silver platter. I
already said before. They would have to fight for them. And we will
defend ourselves. 

Honestly, I'm not sure I could say the same.

If it would mean creating actual peace with the darkspawn (in so much as peace can ever exist between two groups), I think I'd be ok with deciding that being sold to the darkspawn is the new punishment for truly terrible maleficars.  Just make them tranquil first.  They aren't really people at that point, anyway.  If the rite of tranquility can be performed on anyone (all humans have a connection to the fade, I'm not sure why we couldn't cut it off for non mages too), I might even be ok with making it the punishment for serial killers, or the very rare female rapist.

Can't say I'd be happy about it, but when given the choice between the deaths of thousands or putting a few of society's worst criminals into a living hell... well, I'm going to choose the latter.  

Neither's good, but I see the latter as less bad.

I don't have a problem with that actually.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mars 2010 - 06:22 .