1316 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Hey if we keep this up do you think this post would get as long as that Zevran thread?

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

The point is that regardless of sentience or intelligence, the darkspawn need to be eradicated.  Their existence is incompatible with human/dwarven/elven life.

Then make that argument.

As I said, I'd have no issue with this argument, given it was made on the basis of their reproduction.  I may not agree, but I can respect that where x = moral value of brood mothers and y = moral value of genocide, you believe x > y and I believe y > x.

That is what I'm talking about.   I'm not particularly interested in an esoteric discussion of the nature of sentience and that was never my point.  The darkspawn can obviously bang two pots together, they can obviously hang Cailan in trophy fashion.  The argument that I make is that aiding them in increasing their intelligence and organization is illogical and suicidally unproductive.  You want to prevent genocide?  Prevent humanity's first.

And this is where we get back to the cul-de-sac of moral equivalence, whereby we can't actually prefer our own species over another.  Or where we're suppoed to simply put faith in the Architect, for no reason whatsoever.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 mars 2010 - 06:25 .

[clafount]

krylo wrote...

clafount wrote...

You had me until this. This is just so morally reprehensible on
every level for me *shudder* Especially since it is a fate only females
would face. I just can't even fathom how this would work or even be ok
with anyone.

Think of it this way:

A woman kills your family.

Your choice:

A) She gets tortured forever, and then there is peace.

 She is executed, and then there is a raid and dozens of innocent people die.

Your choice, whatever it is, is then repeated millions upon millions of times.

Which do you choose?

Edit: I fully admit that it is STILL morally reprehensible to do it, but I'm an 'ends justify the means' utilitarian type.

Well, sometimes.

I don't think this would even work that way, and it's such a tortured (excuse the word) analogy that it just...no.

Besides, I'd rather the Darkspawn die out from not having Broodmothers to breed than to willingly provide them more. I know the hypothetical you've set up presumes some kind of peace accord where they agree not to attack us if we give them females for breeding purposes, but I think that's a rather preposterous circumstance.

And yes, it is still morally reprehensible.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

krylo wrote...

The point is that regardless of sentience or intelligence, the darkspawn need to be eradicated.  Their existence is incompatible with human/dwarven/elven life.

Then make that argument.

As I said, I'd have no issue with this argument, given it was made on the basis of their reproduction.  I may not agree, but I can respect that where x = moral value of brood mothers and y = moral value of genocide, you believe x > y and I believe y > x.

That is what I'm talking about.   I'm not particularly interested in an esoteric discussion of the nature of sentience and that was never my point.  The darkspawn can obviously bang two pots together, they can obviously hang Cailan in trophy fashion.  The argument that I make is that aiding them in increasing their intelligence and organization is illogical and suicidally unproductive.  You want to prevent genocide?  Prevent humanity's first.

And this is where we get back to the cul-de-sac of moral equivalence, whereby we can't actually prefer our own species over another.  Or where we're suppoed to simply put faith in the Architect, for no reason whatsoever.

The darkspawn, once they becoem intelligent, have no interest whatsoever to destroy humanity entirely, as that is suicidal by their very nature.

So they won't be genocidal, if only by rational interest.

[Addai]

And your evidence for this is the one messenger who, if spared, helps out travelers while spreading the taint?

[sylvanaerie]

As opposed to the several disciples who ARE violent and genocidal?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

And your evidence for this is the one messenger who, if spared, helps out travelers while spreading the taint?

No, as spreading the taint is not by his own rational choice. And the taint can be contained. The number one method of spreading the taint is via the drinking of blood.
If measures are properly installed, like the Architect did with the Qunari merchant, then the taint can be contained and it will not reach the level necessary to wipe out an entire species.

My evidence is that if the darkspawn exterminate all other races, there would be no more women to turn into broodmothers = death of their own species.

So they have 0 interest to be genocidal.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mars 2010 - 06:32 .

[clafount]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Honestly, I'm not sure I could say the same.

If it would mean creating actual peace with the darkspawn (in so much as peace can ever exist between two groups), I think I'd be ok with deciding that being sold to the darkspawn is the new punishment for truly terrible maleficars.  Just make them tranquil first.  They aren't really people at that point, anyway.  If the rite of tranquility can be performed on anyone (all humans have a connection to the fade, I'm not sure why we couldn't cut it off for non mages too), I might even be ok with making it the punishment for serial killers, or the very rare female rapist.

Can't say I'd be happy about it, but when given the choice between the deaths of thousands or putting a few of society's worst criminals into a living hell... well, I'm going to choose the latter.  

Neither's good, but I see the latter as less bad.

I don't have a problem with that actually.

Well you should, really

You know, not to get all Ben Franklin on you, but the saying "those who give up liberty for security deserve neither" kind of comes to mind here. Except for it would be "those who give up their basic humanity in order to save it perhaps don't need deserve saving."

Because I seriously wouldn't want to live in a world where this kind of thing was acceptable.

There's a sci fi type story here that is teasingly unrecallable but it seems similar...where a society sacrifices a member of their community for some overall "good for everyone" reason? What the heck is that?

Anyway...

Modifié par clafount, 23 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[Addai]

Ah, so they leave enough of us alive in order to breed in... that makes it much better?

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

And this is where we get back to the cul-de-sac of moral equivalence, whereby we can't actually prefer our own species over another.  Or where we're suppoed to simply put faith in the Architect, for no reason whatsoever.

Would you say the same if this game were set during the Exalted March against the Dales and we were told in game repeatedly that elves were evil beings that could never coexist with humanity due to their pagan beliefs?  That they kidnapped humans and sacrificed them?

Would your response then be to wipe out at all costs?  Even if it meant thousands upon thousands, if not millions of innocent soldiers would die doing so?

Or would your response, instead, be to attempt to make peace with them, and, if their sacrifices were truly necessary, offer them prisoners who were already slated to be executed in order to maintain peace?

clafount wrote...

I don't think this would even work that
way, and it's such a tortured (excuse the word) analogy that it
just...no.

I fail to see what is terrible with the analogy.

In the 'real' situation, you are sentencing to death, more than likely, millions of humans, dwarves, and elves attempting to wipe out the darkspawn in their home, as you expressed the want to wipe them out.  OR you are sentencing a few of society's absolute worst criminals (worse than just killing one family, preferably) to torture.

Further: Note that I said making them tranquil first was a necessity.

They'd be unable to feel fear, or hatred, or be emotionally scarred.  Only the physical pain would be applicable.  There'd be no emotional trauma committed against them.

Not even I could reconcile it without that provision.

Besides, I'd rather the Darkspawn die out
from not having Broodmothers to breed than to willingly provide them
more. I know the hypothetical you've set up presumes some kind of peace
accord where they agree not to attack us if we give them females for
breeding purposes, but I think that's a rather preposterous
circumstance.

I think it's more preposterous to assume we'd ever be able to root out the darkspawn from the deep roads and kill all their broodmothers and protect every single female of every other race at all times forever.

A peace accord is much more likely than that.

Modifié par krylo, 23 mars 2010 - 06:36 .

[Godak]

sylvanaerie wrote...

He tells you he sent the delegation to Vigil's keep to peacefully seek an alliance. I don't think peace was demonstrated with "Kill the others capture the warden" and the Withered kicking a helpless cowering guard off the tower battlements.

This brings us back to events being out of the Architect's control. The Withered may have decided that the humans deserved to die for being hostile, or he may have been working with The Mother. We do not know. Still, it is not in the Architect's best interest to kill Grey Warden's, so we can assume that he did NOT want The Withered to be that aggresive.

sylvanaerie wrote...

He tells you the GWs were brought to him dead. That is quite obviously NOT so since you find one of them having been experimented on and alive in the mines. (Then dies moments later).

I've always found something strange about Keenan...Why would they break his legs instead of turning him into one of their experiments? Why would they leave him to die? It seemed a little weird, to me, too.

sylvanaerie wrote...

He can't fulfill his promise of ending the blights cause...what he's gonna innoculate THOUSANDS of darkspawn using GW blood? How does he plan to accomplish that?

 
He's trying to search for another way to stop the blights, because, as you've stated, innoculating that many darkspawn with just Utha would take quite some time. Still, the disciples appear to hold sway over lesser darkspawn. Perhaps their presence can help deafen them to the archdemon's call? Who knows.

sylvanaerie wrote...

Its unreasonable to expect him to live up to what he promises. And we don't get enough dialogue with him to find out what he plans to do.

It is unreasonable to assume that he'll keep his promise, and it is unreasonable to assume that he won't. We do not know enough about him.

sylvanaerie wrote...

He says "I'm sorry I don't want to be your enemy" but if the dumb ass knew anything about my PC he would know knocking me out, stealing my gear and harming me and my friends doing Maker knows what to us in the interim was being friendly...huh...well we got very different ideas of enemy vs friendship.

I'm not sure if the Architect posseses a large repertoire of social graces. He's doesn't exactly seem like a people person. Still, he made it quite clear that he had no intention of killing us.

sylvanaerie wrote...

This either smacks of contradiction or poor attention to detail in writing. Or maybe they left him deliberately ambiguous to spark all these conversations on the forum boards. I still say he's one helluva interesting character.

I think it was less about inciting debate, and more about extending gameplay. Why is Keenan not corrupted like the others? Oh, a pointless sidequest. Where do those dragons come from? The Architect can control dragons? Wha...? Oh, I get it. BioWare wants us to have a stupid boss battle at the end of the dungeon.

So, I'm thinking that the writers weren't trying to make the Architect seem contradictory, but they wanted to throw in some gameplay, and it came out rather messy in terms of the canon vs. our character's actions.

[Addai]

clafount wrote...

There's a sci fi type story here that is teasingly unrecallable but it seems similar...where a society sacrifices a member of their community for some overall "good for everyone" reason? What the heck is that?

That's lots of stories, I think!  The one that comes to mind is called "The Shepherd" by Orson Scott Card.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[sylvanaerie]

I don't see evidence of peaceful darkspawn. We get one in game. That's all. Just one (the messenger). However we DO get lots of disciples to fight and an "aware" broodmother. And a polite Architect. Polite does not equal peaceful, look at the amoral means he uses to get what he wants. The Withered wasn't leading a peace delegation, that was a raid to capture GWs for more experimentation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Ah, so they leave enough of us alive in order to breed in... that makes it much better?

It's better than the blight and a genocide, that's for sure.

And we would resist. You speak as if I am telling the darkspawn to go ahead and do all these things. 
They do not have the capability necessary for them to subdue all races, especially not humanity. And some of them have shown moral and ethical appreciation for humanity, so it's not a guarantee that they would even think of such a thing.

Even if you kill the Architect, the Disciples retreat and are not vengfeul towards you killing their messiah.

You don't trust them to remain that way? Well too bad they are going to be free eventually. Unless you have some way to wipe out the entire species, with no terrible cost to our own, then by all means.  
  

[sylvanaerie]

Addai67 wrote...

clafount wrote...

There's a sci fi type story here that is teasingly unrecallable but it seems similar...where a society sacrifices a member of their community for some overall "good for everyone" reason? What the heck is that?

That's lots of stories, I think!  The one that comes to mind is called "The Shepherd" by Orson Scott Card.

Its a short story called "The Lottery" I think? 

[Addai]

Godak wrote...

I'm not sure if the Architect posseses a large repertoire of social graces. He's doesn't exactly seem like a people person. Still, he made it quite clear that he had no intention of killing us.

Then why does he loose two dragon thralls on your PC rather than simply letting you go free and trying again other day?

[Godak]

Addai67 wrote...

Godak wrote...

I'm not sure if the Architect posseses a large repertoire of social graces. He's doesn't exactly seem like a people person. Still, he made it quite clear that he had no intention of killing us.

Then why does he loose two dragon thralls on your PC rather than simply letting you go free and trying again other day?

Again, that seems to be a rather far-fetched moment, and I doubt it's canonical. Where did the Architect get the dragons? How does he control them? I really just think that BioWare wanted to give us a boss fight, since it seems like complete BS. Dragons are very rare, and the Architect gains nothing by killing us.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And some of them have shown moral and ethical appreciation for humanity, so it's not a guarantee that they would even think of such a thing.

Which?  Certainly nothing that our character would have observed by the time we have to decide whether to cooperate with the Architect's plan or not.  Or is that what you call your experience of the Architect's "laboratory"?

[Addai]

Godak wrote...

Again, that seems to be a rather far-fetched moment, and I doubt it's canonical. Where did the Architect get the dragons? How does he control them? I really just think that BioWare wanted to give us a boss fight, since it seems like complete BS. Dragons are very rare, and the Architect gains nothing by killing us.

His journal indicates he was already contemplating doing that very thing.

[nranola]

sylvanaerie wrote...

He tells you he sent the delegation to Vigil's keep to peacefully seek an alliance. I don't think peace was demonstrated with "Kill the others capture the warden" and the Withered kicking a helpless cowering guard off the tower battlements.

Who struck the first blow, I wonder? If the people at the Keep did I'd say the Withered's actions were understandable. Not that I'd blame the people at the Keep, really; I'd freak out too if talking darkspawn suddenly appeared for a peace talk. xD It takes a very open mind to think of accomodating them, considering the preconceptions about darkspawn and all.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for "you don't know if the Architect can stop the bligh fopr sure". Of course I don't and I plan to find out if he can or can't. Even the slightest chance of aborting the blights before they begin is worth the risk imo.
Killing the Architect in the lair is irreversible. Sparing him is.

This.

You're given another option via the Architect, someone who knows how the darkspawn tick and is working towards preventing any more Blights from starting, a possible ally; by killing him you forfeit all that. If you spare him you still have the option of killing him later. Provided you have to find him first, but the point is that the option is still open to you.

Modifié par nranola, 23 mars 2010 - 06:59 .

[krylo]

Godak wrote...
Again, that seems to be a rather far-fetched moment, and I doubt it's canonical.

In the game=canonical.

Where did the Architect get the dragons?

He's breeding them like three rooms over.

How does he control them?

They're tainted thralls. 

Dragons are very rare

Don't seem to be so rare anymore.  Seem to be making a bit of a comeback.  There's, what, two high dragons, a high dragon ghost, two thralls, and how many drakes? 

and the Architect gains nothing by killing us.

Better argument would be that he couldn't have seriously thought two dragon thralls would have a chance in hell against us.

[sylvanaerie]

krylo wrote...

Better argument would be that he couldn't have seriously thought two dragon thralls would have a chance in hell against us.

hehe Sgt Kylon would definitely agree on that point!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And some of them have shown moral and ethical appreciation for humanity, so it's not a guarantee that they would even think of such a thing.

Which?  Certainly nothing that our character would have observed by the time we have to decide whether to cooperate with the Architect's plan or not.  Or is that what you call your experience of the Architect's "laboratory"?

The Withered deciding to spare the Senechal's life, despite not being a Grey Warden, for one.
The Qunari Merchant having no problem at all dealing with the Architect.
The Architect's notes show that the darkspawn have developped a connection to Seranni and are close to her.
The Architect showing no hatred or bigotry to anyone. And him trying to help us against the Mother, while he could have very easily ignored the problem and let us deal with it on our own.
 The Messenger fighting with us when we save Amaranthine. He could have very easily left during the battle and no one would have noticed. He remained. 

My character observed lots of things. Having free will = an ethical nature.
To go with the assumption "darkspawn are all evilzzz" is just a non-argument  and simply a prejudice. It could be right, but it could be (and is proven to be) wrong.

[Godak]

Addai67 wrote...

Godak wrote...

Again, that seems to be a rather far-fetched moment, and I doubt it's canonical. Where did the Architect get the dragons? How does he control them? I really just think that BioWare wanted to give us a boss fight, since it seems like complete BS. Dragons are very rare, and the Architect gains nothing by killing us.

His journal indicates he was already contemplating doing that very thing.

I thought he was referring to Velanna? The notes seem to refer to Seranni and Velanna, not our party.

"-The female elf is accommodating, allowing me to take her blood for my work. Perhaps she thinks I'll release her if she cooperates.

-My disciples report that another elf is rampaging through the woods, killing humans. Revenge for what we did to her kind, only she hasn't seen through the Seeker's ruse. We'll keep this from Seranni. If she is upset, she may stop cooperating.

-Perhaps I should have killed it while it slept."

He seems to be worried that Seranni will get wind of what Velanna is doing and leave. He seems to consider Velanna a "threat". Maybe I'm just stupid, though. That sometimes happens.

[krylo]

sylvanaerie wrote...

krylo wrote...

Better argument would be that he couldn't have seriously thought two dragon thralls would have a chance in hell against us.

hehe Sgt Kylon would definitely agree on that point!

He's the smartest man in Thedas.

I'd have made him king if the game let me.

Modifié par krylo, 23 mars 2010 - 06:55 .