1316 réponses à ce sujet

[tmelange]

nranola wrote...

By immediate threat I think he means amassing an army to, say, destroy Vigil's Keep for instance? xD The Mother certainly didn't seem like one for peace talks. And about being able to avert two more Blights... Legend says there were seven Old Gods, and five Blights have already passed by the time Awakening comes around. So technically two more Blights could still occur.

Aha. Two more dragons out there. Makes sense. Though I think that the prospect of two more blights hundreds of years disparate is a lot more manageable than the prospect of an intelligent horde of darkspawn living side by side with us right now. LOL

[Cazlee]

I spared him because:

1) I was apathetic. I thought I made a stupid decision by saving Amaranthine. I thought my people were diseased, my comrades dead, Vigil's Keep destroyed, and Ferelden doomed.

2) He reminded me of the lady of the forest trying to tame the werewolves.

3) I felt a lot of compassion for him and for the darkspawn after hearing Valenna's sister's pleas.

3) I imagined them living peacefully underground thought maybe this is possible.

4) He already opened their eyes to the "knowledge of good and evil", and as long as he was alive I believed that the darkspawn would remain good. Without him, I believe that his followers could use his research for a darker purpose. And the research would continue anyways. They need him.

6) I thought he would fly away if I said I would attack.

7) I wanted to learn more about him instead of just killing him.

8) There was no good reason in the dialogue options to attack him "No! You die now!" didn't explain anything.

I'm not saying these are good reasons at all.

[NugWrangler]

I spared him because I thought there was a possibility of double crossing him later, which has happened in past quests. If he comes up in a future expansion or sequel, then he's done for. He was a means to an end is all. Though I would have rather sided with the Mother. She was insane and would have eventually destroyed herself if she got away.



Besides, darkspawn and humans/elves/dwarves are natural enemies. There's no making peace with them because they can't reproduce without turning women in to broodmothers and their very presence spreads illness. It doesn't make any sense to let them become organized and intelligent.

[Dansayshi]

I let him live, he just seemed to be working towards a goal which if successful would benefit everyone, if he betrays you, well, theirs not enough wardens for him to amass an army anyway, those that he could even catch, and if hes genuine it benefits every1.



Id imagine the majority of players never read the calling either, I didnt, and didnt have a clue wtf was going on half the time, like who was the dwarf? Who was the mother? Why is Archy called father? etc.

[tmelange]

ejoslin wrote...

I let him live. I don't know, this will sound bad, but I really didn't have enough information about him at all to make a real decision so I couldn't be bothered about either choice. The mother seemed to hate him, and so I figured why not make her mad before killing her.

LOL, this, actually, makes the most sense to me so far. To put off the decision pending more info.

[tmelange]

Dansayshi wrote...

I let him live, he just seemed to be working towards a goal which if successful would benefit everyone, if he betrays you, well, theirs not enough wardens for him to amass an army anyway, those that he could even catch, and if hes genuine it benefits every1.

Id imagine the majority of players never read the calling either, I didnt, and didnt have a clue wtf was going on half the time, like who was the dwarf? Who was the mother? Why is Archy called father? etc.

One of the things that bothers me about sparing the Architect is the old sci fi/fantasy/horror axiom that you don't enable a species that is higher than you on the food chain (that eat you to live, lol). Like Jurassic Park and not bringing back dinosaurs, or the whole lore about "friendly" vampires, or that movie with...what's her name? Milo something or other -- Species? The movie where some himans have evolved, or whatever. Or even Aliens, and the notion that you don't bring an aggressive species to live alongside another species that they consider PREY. 

It's like the argument of sentient machines, AIs, and all that. One Data or whatever is cool. Misstep and you have Terminator, or Battlestar Galactica, or Matrix, or some other apocalyptic situation where organics and inorganics just don't see eye to eye, and the humans are outclassed by virtue of the evolutionary predator/prey paradigm. 

Modifié par tmelange, 20 mars 2010 - 12:04 .

[nranola]

tmelange wrote...

Aha. Two more dragons out there. Makes sense. Though I think that the prospect of two more blights hundreds of years disparate is a lot more manageable than the prospect of an intelligent horde of darkspawn living side by side with us right now. LOL

It's not like they become intelligent like BAM, right? xD Still, the chance of there being no more Blights was enough reason for me to spare him... at least for now. If you kill him you lose that chance, but at a risk, like you said. But that can be dealt with later, should it come to that. Ferelden is no stranger to war.

[Venatio]

I spared the messanger hoping that he would go back to the architect so I could kill him later. On my next playthrough I'll just tie him up and have him killed after getting the info we need.



We're Grey Wardens, not Saints.

[tmelange]

BPearl12 wrote...

I spared him because I thought there was a possibility of double crossing him later, which has happened in past quests. If he comes up in a future expansion or sequel, then he's done for. He was a means to an end is all. Though I would have rather sided with the Mother. She was insane and would have eventually destroyed herself if she got away.

Besides, darkspawn and humans/elves/dwarves are natural enemies. There's no making peace with them because they can't reproduce without turning women in to broodmothers and their very presence spreads illness. It doesn't make any sense to let them become organized and intelligent.

This makes sense to me. To use him to ensure the defeat of one enemy, knowing that you'll have to double cross him later is the same thing that I did many times in game with demons from the fade. A desire demon is a parasite on humans. Though you can spare one and have it be merciful, to effect a whole scale change in the natural order is impossible, unless you also solve the issue of the predator/prey - parasitical relationship between the species. You don't enable a species that outnumbers you and that EATS you (lol), needs to rape and transform you to thrive, and infects your species with a incurable disease through proximity. That would be...ill-advised.

[Kerilus]

Venatio wrote...

I spared the messanger hoping that he would go back to the architect so I could kill him later. On my next playthrough I'll just tie him up and have him killed after getting the info we need.

We're Grey Wardens, not Saints.

Everybody can kill a Darkspawn. Grey Wardens' only true use and goal is to end the Bilghts.

[tmelange]

Cazlee wrote...

I spared him because:
1) I was apathetic. I thought I made a stupid decision by saving Amaranthine. I thought my people were diseased, my comrades dead, Vigil's Keep destroyed, and Ferelden doomed.
2) He reminded me of the lady of the forest trying to tame the werewolves.
3) I felt a lot of compassion for him and for the darkspawn after hearing Valenna's sister's pleas.
3) I imagined them living peacefully underground thought maybe this is possible.
4) He already opened their eyes to the "knowledge of good and evil", and as long as he was alive I believed that the darkspawn would remain good. Without him, I believe that his followers could use his research for a darker purpose. And the research would continue anyways. They need him.
6) I thought he would fly away if I said I would attack.
7) I wanted to learn more about him instead of just killing him.
8) There was no good reason in the dialogue options to attack him "No! You die now!" didn't explain anything.
I'm not saying these are good reasons at all.

I would have liked more information, or a better reason for me to go in that direction. I spared the messenger, but I'm not even sure I should have done that. I did get the connotations between the situation and the werewolves in the forest but I think intelligent werewolves can fit in the evolutionary scale below humans; they don't need to eat humans, or breed with them or to exist parasitically to them. If they tame their violent nature they should be able to live peacefully.

I didn't see that option with the darkspawn. I thought the situation was more analogous to the demons in the fade. No one would think to simply drop the veil and let fade demons have their way with us. Fade demons live off us, and even though they are sentient, and want to promote their own interests, there is no way for us to walk that path with them because they survive off of us. They need to possess us, feed on our emotions etc. To free them would be to kill ourselves. Even if they feel they have some right to exist in our world of color and sensation, they can't. We would have to kill them first, and we do, throughout the game.

[Gilsa]

Nothing he said swayed my DN because even if the darkspawn retreated peacefully, the dwarves were still the clean-up crew while the surfacers break out the bottles of wine and go back to blissful lives. We were going to want to reclaim our thiags in the meantime and what happens when we run into talking, intelligent darkspawns in the process? Yeah, that is just flat-out irresponsible and not in the best interest of the dwarves. And as a Grey Warden commander, I cannot let them take the blood of my soldiers either. I understood why it was necessary and that we were doing the same thing with their blood more or less, but in the end, we wouldn't have needed their blood if they hadn't started the blasted blights in the first place. We shouldn't be the sacrificial solution to their problems. I will say that Utha's presence as a dwarf and a former Grey Warden definitely made me hesitate and wonder what piece of the puzzle I was missing (didn't read the Calling, fyi). I definitely sat there and considered it from all angles for a few moments before pressing on with my decision.



However, I can see my surface dwarf being swayed by this. She doesn't deal with the deep roads or have ties to Ozrammar as far as I can tell. Utha's presence will be a good bargaining chip for the Architect. The wiki seems to indicate there's more information from the Mother if I side with the Architect so I'd like so hear that at least once.

[tmelange]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I believed the Architect completely. I read The Calling and understand its point of view and how it has trouble with dealing with other species. It had no real reason to lie, but perhaps leave info out.
He still dies in my story, as well as the messenger. My Warden is a good guy, but ending the blight (not just the Blights, but the blight as well) is a priority. Sorry inteligent darkspawn, you can now think for yourself, so I'm a bit sad to kill you, but I see no hope of true coexistence and the blight, which you carry, is a threat to all. Eventually the Grey Wardens will need to be removed after the darkspawn and Archdemons.

Whoa! I suppose you're right. To truly eradicate the blight, the last thing would be to put an end to the wardens. I never really thought of it that way.

What if there was an outcry to round up and kill the very people who had saved the world from extinction? Would all wardens simply go quietly into that good night?

[tmelange]

Gilsa wrote...

Nothing he said swayed my DN because even if the darkspawn retreated peacefully, the dwarves were still the clean-up crew while the surfacers break out the bottles of wine and go back to blissful lives. We were going to want to reclaim our thiags in the meantime and what happens when we run into talking, intelligent darkspawns in the process? Yeah, that is just flat-out irresponsible and not in the best interest of the dwarves. And as a Grey Warden commander, I cannot let them take the blood of my soldiers either. I understood why it was necessary and that we were doing the same thing with their blood more or less, but in the end, we wouldn't have needed their blood if they hadn't started the blasted blights in the first place. We shouldn't be the sacrificial solution to their problems. I will say that Utha's presence as a dwarf and a former Grey Warden definitely made me hesitate and wonder what piece of the puzzle I was missing (didn't read the Calling, fyi). I definitely sat there and considered it from all angles for a few moments before pressing on with my decision.

However, I can see my surface dwarf being swayed by this. She doesn't deal with the deep roads or have ties to Ozrammar as far as I can tell. Utha's presence will be a good bargaining chip for the Architect. The wiki seems to indicate there's more information from the Mother if I side with the Architect so I'd like so hear that at least once.

This was my concern too. Where would these intelligent darkspawn live? Should we spare them just to hope they stay underground and foist the problem onto the dwarves? Is there a part of the underground deep enough so that they could retreat from all dwaven territory and never be seen again?

Too much was left unclear. Why was Utha with the Architect? What did he say to her to convince her? What promise did he make?

In this way, I thought the ending of the Architect was abrupt. I couldn't see sparing him, but there seemed to be more to the story than I was able to uncover. LOL

[tmelange]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Spoilers?
The Architect's promise to Utha was to end the cycle of the Blights. She never wants another Blight or darkspawn slaughtering entire families (like hers) again, so she sided with the Architect to stop it all eventually. So, she took the easy route, and I slew her. My Warden didn't know this, but he knew she sided with the darkspawn and a threat.

Oh! She sided with him to stop the blights. I suppose that could make sense, provided that the intelligent darkspawn weren't themselves preying on humans. This definitely needed more development.

Of course, I would find a different way to stop blights other than to enable the intelligent emancipation of the darkspawn horde. LOL The upside sounds high, but the downside is very very low. You can't put the genii back in the bottle.

Modifié par tmelange, 20 mars 2010 - 12:41 .

[nranola]

I agree, the lack of information is very unsettling. But since there are still things left unexplained, wouldn't you say it would be rash to kill him right there?

[blackbblade7]

i just beat the game with my human noble i spared him at first to see what up then i hurd he started the blite that cuased howle to kill my famliy so i reoded killed him and that was that

[Vicious]

I find it pretty hard to believe that any future blight [there are only 2 left] will come close to the horror of the first blight.



Just think about it: Dumat had every advantage in the book, NO ONE knew how to stop him or even anything about the Darkspawn, they came out of nowhere and kicked everyone's ass, and he STILL lost.



And by all accounts, Dumat was the strongest of all the old gods.



Looking at the weaksauce of Urthemiel's [that his name?] blight, conquered by 2 newb Grey Wardens and a country weakened by a century of occupation by a foreign power - I find it very hard to believe that the remaining 2 blights will even come close to the devastation of the first.





Better the devil you know.

[CerebusAlteri]

But wasn't it human pride and folly that started the blights?



The only reason the archdemons are a threat is because they have a horde of mindless killing beasts at it's disposal, we have seen that the architects process cuts them off from the "song" of the old gods. And we have evidence that the new darkspawn get no love from the opposing darkspawn. Theoretically a new blight archdemon would be just as willing to go after the independent darkspawn as readily as they would go after anyone else.



Then there is the wildcard if you took morrigans deal, not something you go around telling everyone. She has the soul of an old god trapped inside a human, could that be used to control darkspawn? And to what end?



Any process freeing the darkspawn from the call of the old gods, is worth a chance. Despite the costs. We wardens sacrafice lives to create wardens. We live lives that are forever against the clock before our taint overwhelms us if we do survive the process.



As a warden, our job is to stop the blights in the end. the architect gives us a chance to do so, while he may have done horrible things, his goal is one that gives us an out. And one could argue that we wardens have done terrible things to stop the blights. look at the a warden's keep incident, and i am sure there are other deals and choices we have made that effect countless lives and sacraficed people in order to combat the blights.



like someone else said we wardens are no saints either, i think that would make us more willing to try a deal like the architect offered, even though your other wardens disagree with your decision if you take his offer, if we stop or weaken another blight and possibly gain another ally in the process that is a good thing for the blights to come.



and heck you are the hero and have made quite a few questionable decisions along the way to slaughtering the archdemon and living to continue the fight. whats one more risk along the way, not like you wont be able to clean your mess up if it goes wrong.

[SwordsmanofShadow]

My human mage killed him and Utha without pity or regret. Sure he had a noble goal, but with to many risks/sacrifices. Like the old saying: 'the devil you know...'



And there is another problem with helping him. Say the darkspawn as a whole gain control. What's to stop them from continuing to search for the Old Gods of their own free will? One only need to look at the mother to see how bad it could be. Imagine another Blight, but with intelligent darkspawn. Imagine an intelligent Archdemon. Then where would we be?



To many risks to many variables for a decision of this magnitude. Like I said, the devil you know.

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never claimed we could live side by side in peace (although the darkspawn messenger is proof that they can be benevolent).

Perhaps the Architect's experiments will give the darkspawn a new means of reproduction. Perhaps not.
Even still, I think the death of a few of our females, while regretable, is better than having to face the remaining blights.
And they do not seem to need that many broodmothers anyhow. One broodmother can give birth to hundreds.

For me, it was a choice between havign to face 2 blights that seek nothign but complete annihilation, or having to face a rational and reasonable enemy. And if the blights are not averted, then the Architect can prove to be a valuable ally. 

I realise I am tkaing a big leap of faith, the Architect said so himself. But like I said, the potential benefits outweight the risks.

Whoa, so we're back to sacrificing women to the monsters to avert a greater disaster? LOL That's...whoa. You really think we should just hope they find food and procreative methods that don't include humans, and put faith in this one architect to control his newly created frankensteins? He's already proven that he has no control over the process with the mother. The mother exists because of the Architect. He was wrong as to the nature of one darkspawn, and look at the devastation against humans that one darkspwn wrought. He's responsible for that as much if not more than she is.

And, of course, the mother begs the question: if the broodmother started off as a human (and is a corrupted human), why didn't "freeing" her from the dark god song restore her humanity and empathy? It simply drove her crazy and nothing human seemed to remain. Where's the proof that the darkspawn are supposed to evolve the way the Architect says?

It's like the "first contact" conundrum. If you provide a species with something from outside their evolutionary path, thinking to help them, you are just as likely to completely destroy everything. The Architect is not god. Just as the PC can leave it to faith regarding whether the darkspawn will be able to exist alongside humans, the PC can leave it to faith that there will be another way.

Kill the Architect. If the maker wants the darkspawn to be intelligent and thus free, the maker will provide the means. LOL

Modifié par tmelange, 20 mars 2010 - 12:53 .

[Major Alenko]

argh dont post spoliers in title!!!!!!

[CerebusAlteri]

well lets look at the process a woman is subjected to to turn her into a broodmother. one could see where that might leave scars.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vicious wrote...

 I find it very hard to believe that the remaining 2 blights will even come close to the devastation of the first.

You will never know. You are taking a leap of faith just like those who spared the Architect.

The last two Gods are the God of mystery and the God of night. If their names mean anything, I would say they can potentially be very dangerous. 

I do not think it's wise to say that the blights are now a threat that can easily be delt with. The first blight was the longest, but the 3 blights that came after it were just as devastating. And keep in midn that the first blight had to face the Tevinter Imperium in its prime.

The fifth blight was epic fail. That doesn't mean the 6th and 7th will be.

 

[fantasypisces]

One thing I found interesting, I told the captain of the guard to kill the messenger, but my epilogue said he lived. Yet another bug I guess.

For the record, I killed the Architect.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 20 mars 2010 - 12:59 .