1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Stoomkal]

Except he is described as a scarred looking Hurlock in dirty robes...



The only real similarity is his name. Even his plan is very different.

[Efesell]

Okay, so how is the plan drastically different then?

Note, asking about his overall goal. Not what he does to achieve it.

[Stoomkal]

Answering that would call on me to explain to you the definition of "different".



His plan is "different".



His goals are the "same".



Go figure...

[Efesell]

Well you were making the assertion that he seemed like a totally different character. Now you admit that he's trying achieve the same end in both stories.

It doesn't seem to much of a stretch that he would change his methods from The Calling since.. well they were totally absurd.

[Stoomkal]

Except that he seems to have had a massive amount of plastic surgery... a change in skin color, and vocal enhancement.



Yeah... same... *claps*.



Try searching for previous threads that talked about the Architect... he is a completely different character.



They took everything Gaider wrote and threw it out the window. Back to the drawing board style.



That is all that book is good for, really.

[Efesell]

Okay, so I guess you're just going to dance around the issue.

That's fine.

[Stoomkal]

Errr... what?



I said the Architect looked completely different... this is true.



I said that his plan was different... this is true.



You said his goal was the same.



"Goal" and "Plan" are different words, you know?



What is your issue, now?

[Efesell]

My issue was that you've never addressed anything I said. You either split hairs or went off on another point entirely.

[Stoomkal]

Uh... no... I didn't... but feel free to read them again.



Have a cookie, kiddo?

[Ambeth]

Let's see....

I found Anders standing over a pile of bodies.  He claimed to have killed only the darkspawn, not the Templars, but I had no real proof.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Sigrun admitted she ran - that's desertion under fire.  But I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Velanna had killed many, many humans just because they were there.  But I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Justice is a walking corpse - an abomination.  But I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Why shouldn't I be consistant and give the Architect the benefit of the doubt?  One could argue that he, having free will and self awareness, wasn't a darkspawn.  And, not being part of that unthinking horde, I had to take him as an individual.  And, yes, that means I have to talk ALL the talking darkspawn as individuals, same I would for any thinking being that isn't actively attacking me on sight.


Of course, if they attack me on sight, they are going down, but outside of that?  I have to make a judgement call.

[Stoomkal]

Ambeth wrote...

Of course, if they attack me on sight, they are going down, but outside of that?  I have to make a judgement call.

...

By giving them the benefit of doubt, of course

Funny that the Architect doesn't even attack you on sight... but Velanna does!

Of course, there is the imprisonment/experimentation thing.

I personally never trust *anyone* who undresses me while I am unconscious.

Learnt that lesson the hard way... but that is another story

[Efesell]

Stoomkal wrote...

Uh... no... I didn't... but feel free to read them again.

Have a cookie, kiddo?

I believe I asked how the overall plan was different, which was totally ignored in favor of talking about how the character looks different or how you wanted to interpret the words 'goal' and 'plan'.

[CybAnt1]

Funny that the Architect doesn't even attack you on sight... but Velanna does!

It's weird people seem to conveniently ignore that he sent two dragons to kill you.

I don't care if he supposedly "knew" someone of your "stature" at that point could kill two dragon thralls without breaking a sweat, that was still an attempt to kill you. 

BTW, does anybody know what he did to us while we were unconscious, before we woke up in clothing/(skivvies) in a prison cell? Oh that's right, he tells us all he did was take a little of our blood, no biggie, right? Seems to me there was another CRPG villain who liked to experiment on me while I was unconscious, a certain Mr. Irenicus, and last I recall, he wasn't just admiring my pecs while he had me in his little dungeon-laboratory. He was figuring out a way to steal part of my soul. Oh and BTW I also seem to remember some experiments on a character before they woke up in Mask of the Betrayer weren't so friendly, either, that BTW were slowly consuming his lifeforce due to a void in the center of his being? Maybe it's just my metagame CRPG experience, but I don't seem to find people who kidnap and experiment on me very benevolent ... capiche? 

Oh and this bull**** about the Withered coming to offer a "peace plan" to the Wardens that got misunderstood? Oh yeah. I'm glad some of you were conned by this clown. People there to make peace talks don't drop people off of battlements. Oh and does anybody remember the Withered offering to parley before attacking you? I don't. 













 

[Efesell]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Funny that the Architect doesn't even attack you on sight... but Velanna does!

It's weird people seem to conveniently ignore that he sent two dragons to kill you

"Some of my best friends have tried to kill me."

[CybAnt1]

BTW, I'm enjoying the back & forth discussion on this side issue, but the bottom line is some of us have not read the Calling, and in fact, some of us, having heard the book discussed, may not be rushing out to buy it, either.

In all seriousness, could those of you who've read it, explain how the Architect of the novel and the Architect of Awakening are different? Without beating around the bush? Just get to the point.

So far, AFAICT, the Architect of the Calling novel wants to bring peace between darkspawn & humanity by tainting everybody. This new Architect has ... well, supposedly has ... the plan he's telling us at the endgame. 

I find that new information interesting ... in fact, it makes me suspect the bull**** plan he tells you at the endgame is a cover story over the fact that he's still pursuing the plan outlined in the Calling. 

[Stoomkal]

Okay... here goes... btw, this is the quick and nasty version.

The Architect is described as looking like a Hurlock in dirty robes, scars and all, in The Calling.

His plan is to infect everyone in the world in a twisted version of Grey Warden Joining, meaning that everyone is now immune to the taint and no longer have to fear DS. Except now everyone is a ghoul.

He also wants to kill all Archdemons, preventing DS going mad. He promises Utha that his main goal is to end the Blights and makes peace... at any cost.

End result: peace... (yeah, right).

In Awakening, the Architect looks super-cool, *nothing* like he was described.

He still hates Archdemons. His current plans are *spoilers*.

If Utha wasn't present, I would assume this guy simply stole his name.

[LD50]

Ambeth wrote...

Let's see....

I found Anders standing over a pile of bodies.  He claimed to have killed only the darkspawn, not the Templars, but I had no real proof.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Sigrun admitted she ran - that's desertion under fire.  But I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Velanna had killed many, many humans just because they were there.  But I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Justice is a walking corpse - an abomination.  But I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Why shouldn't I be consistant and give the Architect the benefit of the doubt?  One could argue that he, having free will and self awareness, wasn't a darkspawn.  And, not being part of that unthinking horde, I had to take him as an individual.  And, yes, that means I have to talk ALL the talking darkspawn as individuals, same I would for any thinking being that isn't actively attacking me on sight.

Of course, if they attack me on sight, they are going down, but outside of that?  I have to make a judgement call.

That, actually, makes a lot of sense. I think it is a perfectly valid and logically sound way of looking at the issue.

But let me add another wrinkle, if I may.

As others have pointed out, the darkspawn are basically a parasitic species. Reproduction via Broodmothers presents a lot of problems for peaceful coexistence with the other species of Thedas. By supporting the Architect, I think it is also logical to say that you would be condemning future women to that particular horror.

Also, as a corollary, I think it is safe to say that darkspawn reproduce much faster than the other species of Thedas. Does it not logically follow that, even with peaceful intentions, the darkspawn would eventually overpopulate the deep roads and be left with nowhere else to go but the surface? Wouldnt that inevitably lead to war? After all, even with the most peaceful of intentions, the darkspawn would spread the blight disease, wither the crops, etc by their mere presence, wouldn't they?

How do you reconcile that?

[Efesell]

So.. aside from apparently his appearance he's largely the same in terms of motivation. He just takes a step back to realize that his first idea may have been a bit much.

[Ambeth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

It's weird people seem to conveniently ignore that he sent two dragons to kill you.

Are you sure he sent them?  Only thing I am sure of is that he watched the fight and didn't join in.


And, yeah.  Some of my best friends have tried to kill me. *coughZevrancough*

[Sarah1281]

It's weird people seem to conveniently ignore that he sent two dragons to kill you

I could almost buy he used them to distract you so you wouldn't follow him but didn't he only start to leave once you killed them?

If Utha wasn't present, I would assume this guy simply stole his name.

Maybe the mute dwarf stole her name. If this guy's pretending to be the Architect, maybe he'd want his own Utha.

[LD50]

Stoomkal wrote...

You know - I am not sure that anything written about the Architect in "The Calling" is relevant.

For one, that book is full of flaws, inconsistencies, and plain screw ups. Even David Gaider admitted that he wrote it too fast...

... and then submitted the wrong manuscript!

I have no idea how a writer could treat his work like that, but it certainly read like a dime store D&D novel.

Firstly, the European and American versions list different ages and birthdates for some major canonical characters, and then there is the... uh... 'motivation' of Utha. It takes barely a couple of conversations for her to give up her heritage, humanity and ethics and turn to the Dark Side. Not since Anakin Skywalker has there been such a risible flaw in character motivation.

Then there is the Architect. Remember how he looks? Remember his plan? Was any of this even remotely relevant to this game?

I would hazard that they are not even the same character. I would also gather that Gaider's novel is considered by the development team to be little better than fan fiction.

It certainly *adds* gaping plot holes to Awakening, and vice-versa.

So... kill away! They are *obviously* not the same character 

Whereas I will certainly agree that the Dragon Age novels are not great litterature, I think that is besides the point. They are entirely enjoyable for what they are and thats good enough for me.

I think you are certainly welcome to decide that the novels are irrelevant in your playing of DA but lets be fair. It is a huge stretch to go from some wrong dates to saying that the development team does not consider it canon.

[Efesell]

And regarding the design changes.. well.. "scarred hurlock in dirty robes" is hardly a compelling design choice for a main antagonist.

[Ambeth]

LD50 wrote...

As others have pointed out, the darkspawn are basically a parasitic species. Reproduction via Broodmothers presents a lot of problems for peaceful coexistence with the other species of Thedas. By supporting the Architect, I think it is also logical to say that you would be condemning future women to that particular horror.

Also, as a corollary, I think it is safe to say that darkspawn reproduce much faster than the other species of Thedas. Does it not logically follow that, even with peaceful intentions, the darkspawn would eventually overpopulate the deep roads and be left with nowhere else to go but the surface? Wouldnt that inevitably lead to war? After all, even with the most peaceful of intentions, the darkspawn would spread the blight disease, wither the crops, etc by their mere presence, wouldn't they?

How do you reconcile that?

Those are all things that got weighed in the balance, yes.  But women the world over are ALREADY under threat of becoming broodmothers - only way to stop that is to kill all darkspawn.  Which is out of my hands.  Does the Architect have a plan for that?  I don't know.  But, even if he doesn't nothing gets worse, it will simply remain as the status quo.

As for overrunning us... something must be keeping their numbers in check (I am guessing food supply - underground doesn't have that wonderful power plant we call the sun to be constantly pumping energy into the system) because even with 400 years since the last Blight, they weren't overrunning the surface.  AND there were even fewer dwarves than in the past to keep them in check (and... eat, I assume.... hmmmm.)

But, yes, I can see war being a distinct possibility in the future with intelligent, self-aware, self-willed dark spawn.  But we are at war NOW, after all, and with an Archdemon leading them, they end up rather organized.  Again, we won't be worse off.


Can the situation fail to get better?  Oh, heck yeah.  I know that.  But... the Architect represents at least a slim chance things can get better, while removing the Architect leaves us with all the same old problems and no solutions in sight.  It's a long shot gamble, but it's a case of picking the long shot over the no shot.

[CybAnt1]

Are you sure he sent them? 

Who else did? Santa Claus? In his lab notes, he discusses experiments on turning dragons into thralls. 

Hot damn, you all would make terrible prosecutors in a court of law. 

[LD50]

CybAnt1 wrote...

BTW, I'm enjoying the back & forth discussion on this side issue, but the bottom line is some of us have not read the Calling, and in fact, some of us, having heard the book discussed, may not be rushing out to buy it, either.

In all seriousness, could those of you who've read it, explain how the Architect of the novel and the Architect of Awakening are different? Without beating around the bush? Just get to the point.

So far, AFAICT, the Architect of the Calling novel wants to bring peace between darkspawn & humanity by tainting everybody. This new Architect has ... well, supposedly has ... the plan he's telling us at the endgame. 

I find that new information interesting ... in fact, it makes me suspect the bull**** plan he tells you at the endgame is a cover story over the fact that he's still pursuing the plan outlined in the Calling.

Well, that is the issue, isnt it? I don't see any reason that the plans presented in the Calling and in Awakening would be mutually exclusive.

The only difference, as I see it, between the Architect in the book and in the game are what he looks like. And, honestly, I chalk that up to a game design decision. I imagine they wanted the Architect to stand out amongst the darkspawn and he certainly does.

Aside from that, I find the character seems rather spot on in Awakening.