1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Ex-Paladin]

Argh, need a bloody Dev or Bioware person or whatever to explain the stupid Blight and their Archdemons, and all!! gets confusing!

[Volourn]

"So if I have different color skin, a different face, and I regrow missing body parts - you will instantly recognise me? "



You do realize the Vader thing and the Architect thing are two different issues, right? read the post again. Vader changing his armour from black to white doesn't make him someone different. As i said, the architect appearance may have changed but as many have pointed out, his appearance was likely changed to fit the medium. This happens all the time. Are you such a fanboy of the book that any change makes you butthurt? That sounds like comic book nerds crying over any chnage when a comic is turned into a movie. L0L Get over it.





And, since this thread is full of repeition, I'll gte to the meat of things:



To save ourselves we must save the darkspawn.

[CybAnt1]

BTW for the "we.must.free.the.darkspawn" question I again point out.... this is giving the benefit of the doubt that this is what the Architect was really trying to do ....



Haven't you noticed it doesn't always appear to work? The Mother is a giant big flaming finger to his plan. It seems like once darkspawn stop hearing the "song" of the Archdemons/old gods a lot of them GO MAD.



This BTW is my biggest problem with the Architect's plan, IF one can even believe him. Suppose that "awakening" the darkspawn to sentience results in 10% becoming peaceful and helpful like The Messenger. But 90% wind up more dangerous than before, like the Mother, because THEY GO MAD from not hearing the song anymore. Now they're more intelligent and sentient and MORE VIOLENT AND DANGEROUS than BEFORE.



That's why the plan he tells you seems as risky and far-fetched and downright dangerous to humanity as the previous one.

[Efesell]

Even if we assume that his plan fails miserably and they all go insane.. we're still not much worse off.

Hell this may even be beneficial as now they would be killing each other instead of the surfacers.

[CybAnt1]

Even if we assume that his plan fails miserably and they all go insane.. we're still not much worse off.

Let's recap, shall we? The Mother goes insane. End result? One of two possibilities: Amaranthine burns to the fracking ground or Vigil's Keep is turned to rubble, at least for a few years, anyway. 

That's the end result of one broodmother going insane from being "awakened". 

Now imagine the Architect does this with 50 others. 

I hope Thedas is a much bigger world than we've seen so far, it's in deep darkspawn **** if this happens. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Even if we assume that his plan fails miserably and they all go insane.. we're still not much worse off.

Let's recap, shall we? The Mother goes insane. End result? One of two possibilities: Amaranthine burns to the fracking ground or Vigil's Keep is turned to rubble, at least for a few years, anyway. 

That's the end result of one broodmother going insane from being "awakened". 

Now imagine the Architect does this with 50 others. 

I hope Thedas is a much bigger world than we've seen so far, it's in deep darkspawn **** if this happens. 

Kill the Architect -----> Face the blights ----> Kill the old Gods ------> No more song ----> the ENTIRE darkspawn race can go mad instantly.

Spare the Architect ----> Perhaps avoid the blight, or at least free a part of the darkspawn -----> darkspawn freed gradually and slowly -----> Not all of them go instantly crazy -----> the mad can be delt with easier

Which seems to be the better choice?

[Stoomkal]

Volourn wrote...

"So if I have different color skin, a different face, and I regrow missing body parts - you will instantly recognise me? "

You do realize the Vader thing and the Architect thing are two different issues, right? read the post again. Vader changing his armour from black to white doesn't make him someone different. As i said, the architect appearance may have changed but as many have pointed out, his appearance was likely changed to fit the medium. This happens all the time. Are you such a fanboy of the book that any change makes you butthurt? That sounds like comic book nerds crying over any chnage when a comic is turned into a movie. L0L Get over it.

...

Wow... mature. 

Try not to win an argument by using words like "butthurt" - call it a challenge.

[Metallic Skin]

First time I played, I beheaded the Architect. For some reason, I just did NOT trust him (even though his intentions seemed good). Sigrun said it best when she stated that siding with him would be really f'ing stupid.

[Efesell]

On a separate note, I wonder if it might just be the Broodmothers who lose it like that? Perhaps due to how they come into existence in the first place.

[Stoomkal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

Even if we assume that his plan fails miserably and they all go insane.. we're still not much worse off.

Let's recap, shall we? The Mother goes insane. End result? One of two possibilities: Amaranthine burns to the fracking ground or Vigil's Keep is turned to rubble, at least for a few years, anyway. 

That's the end result of one broodmother going insane from being "awakened". 

Now imagine the Architect does this with 50 others. 

I hope Thedas is a much bigger world than we've seen so far, it's in deep darkspawn **** if this happens. 

Kill the Architect -----> Face the blights ----> Kill the old Gods ------> No more song ----> the ENTIRE darkspawn race can go mad instantly.

Spare the Architect ----> Perhaps avoid the blight, or at least free a part of the darkspawn -----> darkspawn freed gradually and slowly -----> Not all of them go instantly crazy -----> the mad can be delt with easier

Which seems to be the better choice?

...

Why do some people think that if the Architect is allowed to continue his program of *eugenics* that they all suddenly start appreciating Mozart?

That is about as extreme as saying "anything green must die" ala Tolkien.

I think someone said it best when they said that this had become a fight between "evil monsterz" and "unenlightened noble savages".

Besides... it has gotta take at least a century to develop a balm for all those skin problems...

[KnightofPhoenix]

I never read anyone saying that. Least of all myself.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2010 - 03:46 .

[Volourn]

"BTW for the "we.must.free.the.darkspawn" question I again point out.... this is giving the benefit of the doubt that this is what the Architect was really trying to do .... "

It's one thing to damn the Architect for his personal mistakes. It's another thing to damn an entire race for his mistakes.

Should all humans be wiped out because Cahrles Manson is a cold blooded murderer? No, of course not.

All the 'awakening' does is give them free choice. Some - like the Mother - can't handle this because they miss the siren song of the old gods (which actually makes the mother a tragic figure since, after all, the Mother used to be human/dwarf/whatever). Others, like the Architect, sometimes make the wrong choices often with disastrous results (awakening the old god though that eventually would have happened anyways with or without him). Others, like the Messenger, strive to be more and actually go on to help humans.

Choice. And, freedome. That's what it's about.


"That's the end result of one broodmother going insane from being "awakened".

Now imagine the Architect does this with 50 others."

Imagine, a Broodmother being 'awakening' and not going insane. How is an insane mother any different than a tainted by the song mother. Either way she wants to murder. But, one awakened mother who keeps her sanity makes things that much safer.

Imagine 50 of those. Wow.

Plus, people are forgetting that the darkspawn - even normal tainted ones 0- aren't completely mindless.They can communicate with each, and with their commanders can come up with their share of intelligent battle plans. throw in the influence of the tainted old god, and wow.

It makes things easier on us to keep darkspawn 'mindless' uncommicable savage monsters. The choice is then easy - kill them all. But, having them be talking intelligent creatures with fears, hopes, the capability to screw up (ala the architect) or be able to perform heroics 9ala the messenger) or being raving lunatic crazy freaks (ala the Mother) scares us because then WE have to think and make an actual choice.

It's no longer easy. DA;O's story resolution was easy as no matter what we had to fight and destroy the archdemon. No sympathy is needed for soemthing that feels no sympathy. but, an enemy that can talk. That can tell you directly they don't want to die or they admire you 9ala the messenger).. that's acary crap.. do we kill him, capture him, let him go? wow. That's deep kaka.

Stuff we have to come to terms with in real life. Is the death penalty legit or do we try to redeem them? Are they even redeemable?

To free the darkspawn from the taint is to free ourselves from the taint of simplicity. To allow them to ebcome more *human* allows us tobecome more *humane*. To free thgm from the curse is to free ourselves from the curse.

The darkspawn were not evil by choice. But are forced to be. As we are forced to fight them for our survival.

Damn the architect for his foolish chocies or his evil actions. But, do not damn the messenger.

Kill the architect because you want revenge for his attempt to kill you (when you went after him). But, do not kill him because you fear the unknown. That's what happened between the Indians and the Europeans who saw each other as 'monsters' they couldn't udnersatnd.

We no longer have that excuse with the awakened darkspawn. I shall now come them The Awakened.


"Let's recap, shall we? The Mother goes insane. End result? One of two possibilities: Amaranthine burns to the fracking ground or Vigil's Keep is turned to rubble, at least for a few years, anyway. "
I saved both.

L0L That was long.. sorry for boring everyone!

Modifié par Volourn, 25 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[Sarah1281]

I get that the Mother was peeved at the Architect but even if she won, she wouldn't be able to unawaken, would she? Still, she knew why she could not longer here the song and forumlated a plan that, whether it was viable or not, aimed to get the song back.



What happens after the last Old God dies and the song is gone forever? Those that go insane from the silence aren't going to have any even remote chance of getting it back so will they just seek vengenace on those that destroyed the song?

[Efesell]

I think that, in the case of being freed en masse after the last blight, they would just kind of start killing everything in sight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What happens after the last Old God dies and the song is gone forever? Those that go insane from the silence aren't going to have any even remote chance of getting it back so will they just seek vengenace on those that destroyed the song?

Possibly.
And even if they don't get mad and don't want to get the song back. Once they see their people being slaughtered by the other species, they will react. And without a leader to guide them, they will be lost.

Imagine the emotional and psychological trauma that would ensue in such an event. That's what would make them dangerous, not their intelligence.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[Stoomkal]

I think this argument has become abit confused - mainly because we are not given enough in-game details.

Remember how the Archdemon possesses a DS host?

It can do that because they are *soulless*.

Now, I don't usually believe that something so ephemeral is that crucial - but this is a fantasy game, and the DS are the chosen "monolithic evil" of the setting.

BAware seem to have confused themselves (and me)... are the DS supposed to be the traditional monolithic evil or are they morally complex? Orcs in Tolkien are a good example, it is okay to commit genocide against them because they are not "real". This has always sat badly with some people.

Unfortunately, now, are we supposed to believe that they are actually poor, downtrodden and misunderstood?

They are not soulless husks... they are an emerging species?

Who in their right mind decided to **** up the DA setting by elminating the most interesting protagonists in the game... making them just another D&D race?

It is only the first expansion, and already the DS are gone? Perhaps for good? What a waste...

I just do not think that happy-happy Flower Spawn is really how this should have been handled. Are we now supposed to fight for equality.

This seems like two bad halves that do not sit together. This isn't a morally complex new spin... it is just confusing.

[Ambeth]

Stoomkal, I have to agree with you there.

[Efesell]

I don't really find the evil for the sake of evil race to be all that interesting myself.

[Stoomkal]

If they did a sequel to LotR were we found out that Orcs were simply "misunderstood" it would be called "subverting expectations"...



DA was setup from the very first opening movie to be about an evil race from the tainted black city...



If it suddenly becomes another "fantasy-people" setting then we may as well all go back to Faerun.

[Sarah1281]

DA was setup from the very first opening movie to be about an evil race from the tainted black city...

That's just the Chantry's explanation and just because their teachings are widespread doesn't mean they have any idea what they're talking about.

[Efesell]

Stoomkal wrote...

If they did a sequel to LotR were we found out that Orcs were simply "misunderstood" it would be called "subverting expectations"...

DA was setup from the very first opening movie to be about an evil race from the tainted black city...

If it suddenly becomes another "fantasy-people" setting then we may as well all go back to Faerun.

Dragon Age pays a lot of attention to the Grey and Grey morality.. so I think adding layers to their main antagonists is the only logical step.

Modifié par Efesell, 25 mars 2010 - 05:30 .

[Stoomkal]

Efesell wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

If they did a sequel to LotR were we found out that Orcs were simply "misunderstood" it would be called "subverting expectations"...

DA was setup from the very first opening movie to be about an evil race from the tainted black city...

If it suddenly becomes another "fantasy-people" setting then we may as well all go back to Faerun.

Dragon Age pays a lot of attention to the Grey and Grey morality.. so I think adding layers to their main antagonists is the only logical step.

...

This is very true, and a good point.

I just think it would be a shame for the Darkspawn to suddenly be shifted from antagonists to scenery.

If they do that, what are we left with, Demons and the Fade? Anything else? Just people and politics?

Then it just becomes another fantasy-scape with people, but no anchor...

Orlais vs Fereldan would be boring after the Blight.

[Efesell]

At the same time it seems like if we fire up the next game and oh look I guess the enemies are Darkspawn again..



Well that's kind of boring too. I actually wouldn't mind a more political story one bit.

[Stoomkal]

Like...



Dragon Age: Academics Afire!



If I played a LotR game and said "Oh look, Orcs, boring" then I would be rather an idiot.



I think an audience expects antagonists to be present, and DA was really based upon this concept.



I am not saying there are other things to do... but would you really want to adventure in Middle Earth *after* the LotR trilogy...



It would be rather empty and left only with its people... the same applies here.

[Efesell]

You do realize that antagonists don't have to be horrible rampaging monsters right.