1316 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Efesell wrote...

You do realize that antagonists don't have to be horrible rampaging monsters right.

I got more satisfaction out of killing Loghain and Howe than I did out of killing the darkspawn or the AD.

[Efesell]

Absolutely.

Although I did get a fair bit satisfaction watching my chars. charge at and slay the AD. Though not really for it being a compelling antagonist.. more because I'm owning a really big demonic dragon.

[IanPolaris]

Everyone,

No matter how much I might want to, in all three playthoughs so far, I just can't with a clean conscious spare the Architect.  That may be because I haven't read the calling but even so...please hear me out.

Let's assume for the moment that the Architect is sincere.  Let's also assume just for the moment that his overall plan is even workable.

The fact of the matter is that while what the Architect is doing may be the best thing for his race, I can't help but feel that Sigrun is basically right....it is a really, really stupid thing to do from the perspective of humanity (including dwarves, elves, quanari, ect).  The Darkspawn view humanity as PREY and need them as reproductive PARASITES in order to exist.  Furthermore we know that Darkspawn can breed much more rapidly and prolifically than any other humanoid race.  Pretty much the only saving grace that non-Darkspawn have (and what makes blights so scary) is that Darkspawn are inherently mindless (although I think it's safest to say they are nearly mindless....say of monkey or low-ape intelligence level).

Take how the Darkspawn live and breed (and the Architect doesn't see or adress any of these issues!), it would seen the height of folly to make them smart too!  Even IF (a big IF) they turned around and started fighting each other, just how long do you think that untainted humanity would last against even fractured and warring Darkspawn that viewed them fundamentally as prey.  What's worse, the Architect would make Grey Wardens a particularly prized PREY.

Essentially, no matter how I slice it, two (or three) more blights with at least the possibility that the Darkspawn then self-destruct is far, far preferable to simply handing the Darkspawn the key to world domination.

To put it more simply than that, I say this:  If the Architect wins (and the Darkspawn win), then all of humanity will ultimately lose.  This is a zero sum game.  By their very nature in the end the Darkspawn CAN NOT be allowed to co-exist with humanity.  Period.  End of discussion.

-Polaris

[Efesell]

Why are you assuming that they're just going to "go away" after the last Blight? Or that sparing the Architect means we are trying to make friends with the whole race.

[Stoomkal]

Efesell wrote...

You do realize that antagonists don't have to be horrible rampaging monsters right.

...

No, of course. You are very right.

It is just that I have been playing this game called "Dragon Age" which is kinda about horrible rampaging monsters...



Turning it into a world absent of those same monsters seems strange... as I said earlier, it would be like LotR without Sauron or Morgoth...

[Efesell]

I might have played a different Dragon Age but I seem to recall several of the major antagonists being human, and dealing with a Civil War.

Besides, it's not as though all of the monsters would just fade away if they were made out as secondary threats.

[Stoomkal]

Sure... I could have a game about Gondor versus Rohan...



Thrilling!



In any case... this is getting seriously off topic.



I believe this had *something* to do with the Architect...

[IanPolaris]

Efesell wrote...

Why are you assuming that they're just going to "go away" after the last Blight? Or that sparing the Architect means we are trying to make friends with the whole race.

I have two answers:

1)  Apparently it takes a complicated process to make a Darkspawn awaken.  With one and only one exception, it doesn't happen on it's own.  There is no reason to think, then, that after the last Old God is dead or unvailable, that the Darkspawn will suddenly awaken.

It is far more logical and reasonable to say that the "Silence" that drove mother mad was a side-effect of awakening her and muting the call.

In short, you are assuming that no more song means intelligent Darkspawn, and that's just not so.

2)  Aren't you?  What the Architect is trying to do is "awaken" his entire race.  Making nice with the Architect IS in fact making nice with the entire race because you are enabling a race that ultimately must be implacably hostile to humanity (because the two can not coexist in the same environment) overcome it's greatest shortcoming (it's lack of true sapience).

-Polaris

[Efesell]

Er.. the complicated process is "Feed them grey warden blood". That disrupts their connection to the song. The lack of the song is what leads to their sentience.

So it seems more than reasonable to assume that if there is no song, the rest of the race will awaken.

[Cazlee]

I finally finished a game where I didn't spare the architect and I can't tell whether it's a better or worse ending. But it felt awful killing him.

[IanPolaris]

Efesell wrote...

Er.. the complicated process is "Feed them grey warden blood". That disrupts their connection to the song. The lack of the song is what leads to their sentience.
So it seems more than reasonable to assume that if there is no song, the rest of the race will awaken.

No it's not reasonable to think this.

You completely miss the point:  You have DO SOMETHING to the Darkspawn to get them to awaken and thus become sapient (i.e. drink GW blood).  It's a side-effect of becoming Sapient that causes the Darkspawn to no longer be able to hear the calling.

In short just because A implies B does NOT mean that B implies A.  In this case just because "Awakening" (ie. becoming Sapient) implies not being able to hear the Old God Calling does NOT mean that if a Darkspawn can no longer hear the Old God Calling they automatically become Sapient.

Logic and the world does NOT work this way.

Basically because of the fundamental ecology of the Darkspawn, they can  not co-exist with humanity.  10 out of 10 would-be brood mothers agree.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Cazlee wrote...

I finally finished a game where I didn't spare the architect and I can't tell whether it's a better or worse ending. But it felt awful killing him.

Better to kill the architect than doom the human race to intelligent Darkspawn who have just proven to do a lot of damage.  I kill him without a second thought.  My race's survival comes first.  I regard Utha and the Velanna's sister as traitors.

-Polaris

[Efesell]

I don't see how you can be so very sure that they would not end up similar to the disciples once the song is destroyed.

[IanPolaris]

Efesell wrote...

I don't see how you can be so very sure that they would not end up similar to the disciples once the song is destroyed.

Because the evidence we have indicates the contrary.  You have to DO something to create a disciple (i.e.make them drink darkspawn blood).  We are given no evidence that just because a darkspawn doesn't hear the old-god call automatically makes them sentient, and plenty of implied evidence that it doesn't (otherwise the anti-joining wouldn't be necessary).

It wasn't sapience that made mother go insane.  It was the side-effect of sapience that did that.  See the difference?

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Eventually either humanity or the darkspawn will have to become extinct.  The fundamental ecologies can not co-exist which means the architect (if he is sincere which is an open question) is doomed to fail anyway.  Far better that humanity fight DUMB darkspawn than SMART darkspawn.  Sigrun has it right.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 mars 2010 - 08:23 .

[Efesell]

I suppose I just find that hard to believe since what you are DOING is just disrupting their little hive-mind link.

Also it seems one of the codex entries has the Architect pondering this very issue, although with no real answers of course.

[Stoomkal]

Yeah... Polaris is right.

Even if all the Old Gods are destroyed... this does not mean that the DS would become sapient or enlightened.

And the point about sapience causing the Mother's madness is very interesting... although they did not seem particularly sane before hand...

She has better hair, though. At least that is a start...

...

EDIT: Actually, in Efesell's defence, the Architect thought *precisely* what he is saying... that the death of the Old Gods would free the DS from the call and promote "some kind" of evolution.

Modifié par Stoomkal, 25 mars 2010 - 08:41 .

[IanPolaris]

Efesell wrote...

I suppose I just find that hard to believe since what you are DOING is just disrupting their little hive-mind link.
Also it seems one of the codex entries has the Architect pondering this very issue, although with no real answers of course.

Here's the thing:  You are ASSUMING that just because you cut off the song, the Darkspawn will automatically become intelligent.

You can not know that.

However, you DO KNOW that if you help the Architect, a fundamentally hostile (by ecology alone) race WILL become sentient and become a vastly greater threat.

Given the choice between a result that might be bad for humanity and is absolutely assured to be bad for humanity, I'll take the former.....and that means the Architect takes a dirt nap.

I really don't understand how anyone with a clean conscious can help the architect given the realities of Darkspawn ecology.  Now an evil character might not care......

-Polaris

[Efesell]

Well the "how" is simple enough for me. I think that the Blights are the greater threat, and the Architect represents a chance to avoid that. So maybe it's the better choice, maybe not. In the end the epilogue reinforced my decision well enough so I think I'm happy enough with it.

Either way this has been a great thread to follow.

Modifié par Efesell, 25 mars 2010 - 08:57 .

[Massadonious1]

In the end, nothing "bad" is going to happen from sparing the Architect, just like nothing "bad" is going to happen if you chose to spare the Rachni, keep the genophage cure, or re-write the heretic Geth in the Mass Effect series. It's just going to open up a different, possibly more difficult way of doing things.

If DA2 pulls decisions from Awakenings, I would figure that you can fight a new, bigger evil with or without the Architects help, and at that point, you decide once and for all wether to end the Darkspawn,, or let the Architect go on his way.

And besides, what does it matter if they end up smarter or not? It seems like they already possess some basic understanding of combat tactics. They would of figured out the whole "suprise" attack thing sooner or later. Better to let the rest of Ferelden and Thedas figure out what they're capable of now, rather than spend the next however many years thinking the Darkspawn are always going to throw themselves on your sword like witless idiots.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 25 mars 2010 - 09:09 .

[Efesell]

Well yeah.. sure.. but it's more fun to talk about these things as though they actually mattered.

Sadly since he is killable, the issue will probably fall largely to the wayside unless they have his disciples take up his work in the event of his death.

[Massadonious1]

True, it is fun to discuss things like this, but knowing they'll likely never make a "bad guy wins" conclusion to either series helps me rationalize things like this.

[Dokarqt]

I haven't spared the architect yet.

While his argument about how them taking grey warden blood for their ritual is the same as wardens taking darkspawn blood for the joining has a ring of truth, that doesn't mean im going to let him live to chase down and suck the blood out of people of my order no matter how noble his intentions are.
The only choice is to kill him for me.

Modifié par Dokarqt, 25 mars 2010 - 09:33 .

[Stoomkal]

I agree.



The very fact that he *can* be killed will mean he will *not* appear anymore for anyone, IMO.



BAware are getting abit transparent with their "carry over" choices... I doubt it will even be referenced... like almost everything else.

[Efesell]

Oh I expect it will be referenced.. most major things are.

Provided that it doesn't bug out.. of course.

[Massadonious1]

Well, BioWare has already proven that they can do such a thing with Mass Effect (sparing/killing Wrex, letting the Council die), so I don't see why it would be so difficult. If he wasn't spared, he's replaced by a underling that resents you for killing his master, possibly making cooperation with his faction of Darkspawn difficult, if not impossible.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 25 mars 2010 - 09:35 .