1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

It is a spin off using as little detail as humanly possible.



Whether or not the Architect is alive or dead is bound to be *utterly* irrelevant past this expansion... whatever the outcome.

Sad but 100% true.

[Sarah1281]

What does 'awakening' the darkspawn even do to them anyway? The Architect explained that they couldn't hear the song because they absorbed the GW resistance to the taint. Does that mean this is artifiicially changing their nature? If so then even should the Old Gods all die, then the darkspawn will no longer hear the song but won't become awakened.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What does 'awakening' the darkspawn even do to them anyway? The Architect explained that they couldn't hear the song because they absorbed the GW resistance to the taint. Does that mean this is artifiicially changing their nature? If so then even should the Old Gods all die, then the darkspawn will no longer hear the song but won't become awakened.

Resistance to the taint = resistance to the song for a while (eventually the Wrdens start hearing it and that's when they go to die).

No Old Gods = no song.
No song = darkspawn awakened.
 
What the Architect is doing is giving some darkspawn the resistance to the song (they don't need resistance to the taint, just the song, which they get from the Wardens). That's because the song is present and they need to resist it. Without the song, such a thing won't even be necessary.

The Architect's artificial means are necessary so long as the song exists. If it stops, then his means no longer necessary, the darkspawn will be awakened anyhow.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No song = darkspawn awakened.

I strongly beg to differ on that point.  You don't KNOW that no song means the darkspawn awaken.  Not even the architect knows that.  All you know is that you can awaken Darkspawn by having them drink Grey Warden Blood.

That is not at all the same thing.  Indeed, I think (in the short term at least) that Darkspawn do NOT awaken automatically if there is no song.  I think the presence of the song prevents it from happening sponanteously (save one unique case) but that's not the same thing either.

Either way, I can not see how any one that is loyal to humanity (all inclusive) can spare the architect with good conscious.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No song = darkspawn awakened.

I strongly beg to differ on that point.  You don't KNOW that no song means the darkspawn awaken.  Not even the architect knows that.  All you know is that you can awaken Darkspawn by having them drink Grey Warden Blood.

That is not at all the same thing.  Indeed, I think (in the short term at least) that Darkspawn do NOT awaken automatically if there is no song.  I think the presence of the song prevents it from happening sponanteously (save one unique case) but that's not the same thing either.

An awakened darkspawn can no longer hear the song as it is what chained them in the first place and what was preventing them from developping free will.

Thus logically, no song = no more chains = awakening.
 
It's irrelevent how long it would take for all the darkspawn to be awakened after the last old God is killed. What is relevent is that the only logical outcome of such an event is the freeing of the entire darkspawn species, since there are no more chains to bind them.
To assume that such a thing will not happen is risky speculation, based on non-existant data. From the data we know, that is the only logical conclusion we can come up with.

And my conscious is pretty clear and I and several others have explained our positions in details before.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Thus logically, no song = no more chains = awakening.
 

This is totally false.  At best this is what the architect SPECULATES.  AT BEST.

The only thing you know is that drinking Grey Warden Blood can make DarkSpawn sentient.  This sentience prevents them from hearing the call of the Old Gods and it is this (not the sentience) that drives some Darkspawn insane (see Mother).

Just because A implies B (Sentience implies not hearing the call) does NOT logically mean that B implies A (not hearing the call implies sentience).

In short, you are helping the Darkspawn kill and enslave people better.  Does the Architect care?  Hardly since he is darkspawn himself.  You are human (or elve, dwarf, etc) and you SHOULD.  Sigrun has the architect pegged perfectly and her reason is the reason you should kill him...every time.

-Polaris

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sigrun has the architect pegged perfectly and her reason is the reason you should kill him...every time.

Remind me what Sigrun says?

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Thus logically, no song = no more chains = awakening.
 

Just because A implies B (Sentience implies not hearing the call) does NOT logically mean that B implies A (not hearing the call implies sentience).

In short, you are helping the Darkspawn kill and enslave people better.  Does the Architect care?  Hardly since he is darkspawn himself.  You are human (or elve, dwarf, etc) and you SHOULD.  Sigrun has the architect pegged perfectly and her reason is the reason you should kill him...every time.

-Polaris

You are confusing cause and effect. Sentience is the effect. The cause is not hearing the song.
If sentience happens if and only if the song is no longer heard. Then the absence of the song necessarily leads to sentience.

The other point has been addressed in great detail before and I will not repeat myself now.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

[You are confusing cause and effect. Sentience is the effect. The cause is not hearing the song.
If sentience happens if and only if the song is no longer heard. Then the absence of the song necessarily leads to sentience.

The other point has been addressed in great detail before and I will not repeat myself now.

No sir.  It is you that are confusing cause and effect.  There is NO EVIDENCE anywhere (certainly not in the game) that not hearing the song CAUSES the Darkspawn to become sentient.  It may be a necessary condition, but you have ZERO evidence that it is sufficient.  The best you can do is show the architect's notes which are (by his own admission) sheer SPECULATION.

The only thing we KNOW is that Darkspawn that drink Grey Warden blood and survive become sentient.  THAT IS IT.  [We also know that this sentience cuts off the Old God's call and drives some Darkspawn insane.]

In short, you CAN NOT know that if the song were to end that all the Darkspawn would awaken.  Indeed I would contend the implied evidence is the other way around.

IMHO you are just looking for an excuse to save the architect.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sigrun has the architect pegged perfectly and her reason is the reason you should kill him...every time.

Remind me what Sigrun says?

Well paraphrased, Sigrun says that helping the Darkspawn become smarter and better at killing and enslaving people is a really STUPID thing to do.  She's completely correct.

-Polaris

[tmelange]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No song = darkspawn awakened.

I strongly beg to differ on that point.  You don't KNOW that no song means the darkspawn awaken.  Not even the architect knows that.  All you know is that you can awaken Darkspawn by having them drink Grey Warden Blood.

That is not at all the same thing.  Indeed, I think (in the short term at least) that Darkspawn do NOT awaken automatically if there is no song.  I think the presence of the song prevents it from happening sponanteously (save one unique case) but that's not the same thing either.

Either way, I can not see how any one that is loyal to humanity (all inclusive) can spare the architect with good conscious.

-Polaris

There are a lot of assumptions being bandied about as fact on the "Spare the Architect" side. No one knows whether or not the song is natural or unnatural to the darkspawn (only that the corrupted song creates a problem); no one knows whether the end of the last old god would necessarily mean the end of the song (the song could be a natural phenomenon that is only directed by the old gods, or is something that the old gods are a part of not the creators of); no one knows whether there will ever be an option for the song (which could be analogous to the song of life) to be silenced completely, and whether that happening would, in fact, "awaken" all darkspawn at once.

No one knows exactly what the ingestion of the warden blood accomplishes: is it the ingestion of the blood that creates resistance to the taint, that enables intelligence, that THEN severs the bestial connection, that THEN prevents the hearing of the song...or is it the ingestion of the blood, that inhibits the taint, that THEN cuts off the song, that THEN enables intelligence?

In the first instance, the end of the song wouldn't matter; you would still need warden blood to combat the taint before any of it would make a difference.

Modifié par tmelange, 25 mars 2010 - 07:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

[You are confusing cause and effect. Sentience is the effect. The cause is not hearing the song.
If sentience happens if and only if the song is no longer heard. Then the absence of the song necessarily leads to sentience.

The other point has been addressed in great detail before and I will not repeat myself now.

No sir.  It is you that are confusing cause and effect.  There is NO EVIDENCE anywhere (certainly not in the game) that not hearing the song CAUSES the Darkspawn to become sentient.  It may be a necessary condition, but you have ZERO evidence that it is sufficient.  The best you can do is show the architect's notes which are (by his own admission) sheer SPECULATION.

The Architect's joining is simply the transfer of the resistance from Wardens to darkspawn. No where in the game does it imply or hint that it involves anything else (otherwise, it would have been in the Architect's notes). If the darkspawn can resist the song, they become sentient.
Thus, not hearing the song is what causes sentience.

The mother and what she says is all the evidence required. She became sentient presicely because there was "silence" aka no longer hearing the song. That silence is what makes her think.
There nothing that points to the contrary and nothing that directly falsifies this. She never mentions anything except the silence (sentience) that is caused by losing the song.

And let's assume, for the sake of argument, that it is all speculation. I would rather not risk havign to face 2 blights, and with the possibility of having all darkspawn become awakened afterwards.

[Volourn]

"In short, you are helping the Darkspawn kill and enslave people better."



Nonsense. They don't need help to do that. They're already pros at that. They nearly wiped out the dwarven strongholds. 10 of 12 in fact withgout being Awakened. They have already risen up and destroyed human cities multiple times before being awakenied. They've already enslaved and turned women into broodmothers countless times before being awakened.



Nope, they need no help in doing this. Awakening them does one thing, and thing only. It gives them a choice. I mean the Messenger becomes a Robin Hood like figure.



I think people want darkspawn 'mindless' because it makes the chocie to slaughter them wholesale. People need a reason to be racist and mass slaughter another species.



To give the darkspawn the ability to think for themselves means we have to now think out our reactions to them.



We MUST free the darkspawn to free ourselves.



It's true, it's damn true.

[IanPolaris]

Sorry but NO. The only thing you KNOW is that drinking of Grey Warden blood allows Darkspawn to become sentient.



That is IT. Everything else is speculation. Given that, IMHO anyone that spares the Architect is siding against Humanity and with the Darkspawn. Sigrun has it right. EVEN IF the architect is correct and sincere, humanity and darkspawn can not peacefully coexist. It is much better than to keep the Darkspawn as dumb as possible for as long as possible given this.

]

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...
No one knows exactly what the ingestion of the warden blood accomplishes: is it the ingestion of the blood that creates resistance to the taint, that enables intelligence, that THEN severs the bestial connection, that THEN prevents the hearing of the song...or is it the ingestion of the blood, that inhibits the taint, that THEN cuts off the song, that THEN enables intelligence?

That doesn't make any sense. The darkspawn don't need the resistance to the taint, they are already resistant to it (which is what the Wardens want to take when they consume the blood).
The prevention of the song is what leads to intelligence.

The whole point of the Architect's experiments is to take the resistance to the song from Warden blood, not the resistance to the taint.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry but NO. The only thing you KNOW is that drinking of Grey Warden blood allows Darkspawn to become sentient.

The whole point of drinking Grey Warden's blood is to take the resistance to the song. That's all that it involves.

Unless presented with evidence that prove the contrary, the theory that the darkspawn will become awakened once they no longer hear the song is the only logical outcome that my character can think about when presented with the choice to spare or kill the Architect.  

[IanPolaris]

Volourn wrote...

"In short, you are helping the Darkspawn kill and enslave people better."

Nonsense. They don't need help to do that. They're already pros at that. They nearly wiped out the dwarven strongholds. 10 of 12 in fact withgout being Awakened. They have already risen up and destroyed human cities multiple times before being awakenied. They've already enslaved and turned women into broodmothers countless times before being awakened.

False.  They wiped out the old Dwarven Thaigs in large part because the Dwarves handcuffed themselves.  See the Bhelen epilogs for what happens when the Dwarves actually buy a clue.  As for the rest of humanity, it's been five blights and the Darkspawn are 0 out of five...albeit some were close calls.  In fact from the DS PoV, the last blight was a complete dud.

In addition, you want to FREE the Darkspawn? So they can steal more human (elf, dwarf, quonari) females and enslave them into mindless breeding machines?  So they can hunt, and drain the blood of Grey Wardens....so they can overwhelm all other races by their sheer numbers.

REALLY?  Forgot your petty morality.  The fact is that Darkspawn and the rest of the humanities CAN NOT ecologically coexist and the Architect says nothing and offers nothing to change that.  Unless and until he does, he is trying to trick you into killing off your own kind ultimately.

No.  The Architect is a visionary and not an evil creature per se.  I sympathize.  Nevertheless (and you can sig this), "Sigrun was right."

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry but NO. The only thing you KNOW is that drinking of Grey Warden blood allows Darkspawn to become sentient.

The whole point of drinking Grey Warden's blood is to take the resistance to the song. That's all that it involves.

Unless presented with evidence that prove the contrary, the theory that the darkspawn will become awakened once they no longer hear the song is the only logical outcome that my character can think about when presented with the choice to spare or kill the Architect.  

Evidence of this would be appreciated.  You only have the Architect's speculation.  The only thing you KNOW is that drinking Grey Warden Blood awakens darkspawn.  You are SPECULATING that if the last old God dies there will be a last awaking.

You are putting all of humanity at risk for an unproven SPECULATION while CERTAINLY making a race that is fundementally antagonistic to humanity (and views them as Prey) stronger.

Nice.

-Polaris

[tmelange]

Volourn wrote...

"In short, you are helping the Darkspawn kill and enslave people better."

Nonsense. They don't need help to do that. They're already pros at that. They nearly wiped out the dwarven strongholds. 10 of 12 in fact withgout being Awakened. They have already risen up and destroyed human cities multiple times before being awakenied. They've already enslaved and turned women into broodmothers countless times before being awakened.

Nope, they need no help in doing this. Awakening them does one thing, and thing only. It gives them a choice. I mean the Messenger becomes a Robin Hood like figure.

I think people want darkspawn 'mindless' because it makes the chocie to slaughter them wholesale. People need a reason to be racist and mass slaughter another species.

To give the darkspawn the ability to think for themselves means we have to now think out our reactions to them.

We MUST free the darkspawn to free ourselves.

It's true, it's damn true.

It's interesting that you see it this way. What your examples demonstrate to me is that the darkspawn aren't apparently THAT mindless or without free will. They've managed to fight a war against the dwarves rather successfully as they are.

I don't think it's necessary to arm them with further intelligence just so they can be an even greater threat to the humanoid population. I don't think providing an enemy with an increased tactical advantage (Here, Iran, take these nuclear weapons; we feel bad that your sovereignty is impinged by not having them!) is analogous to or necessary for or defines our own "freedom".  Despite what is being debated here, I dispute the notion of the darkspawn being "enslaved" and feel that the only point in the game where they are compelled to do anything at all is once THEY succeed in corrupting the song. Prior to that point, they seem fairly intelligent, fairly organized, quite vindictive (as King Cailan can attest to) and hardly unhappy with their lot in life.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry but NO. The only thing you KNOW is that drinking of Grey Warden blood allows Darkspawn to become sentient.

The whole point of drinking Grey Warden's blood is to take the resistance to the song. That's all that it involves.

Unless presented with evidence that prove the contrary, the theory that the darkspawn will become awakened once they no longer hear the song is the only logical outcome that my character can think about when presented with the choice to spare or kill the Architect.  

Evidence of this would be appreciated.  You only have the Architect's speculation.  The only thing you KNOW is that drinking Grey Warden Blood awakens darkspawn.  You are SPECULATING that if the last old God dies there will be a last awaking.

The Architect's speculations that proved to be correct when he freed other darkspawns. The very fact that he succeeded shows that his speculation on how to free the darkspawn (by making them no longer hear the song), turned out to be correct. That is evidence.

What I "KNOW" is that drinking Grey Warden blood = resistance to the song = no longer hearing the song = awakening.
If the song no longer exists, the first step is unnecessary.

You can stop repeating yourself. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2010 - 07:39 .

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmelange wrote...
No one knows exactly what the ingestion of the warden blood accomplishes: is it the ingestion of the blood that creates resistance to the taint, that enables intelligence, that THEN severs the bestial connection, that THEN prevents the hearing of the song...or is it the ingestion of the blood, that inhibits the taint, that THEN cuts off the song, that THEN enables intelligence?

That doesn't make any sense. The darkspawn don't need the resistance to the taint, they are already resistant to it (which is what the Wardens want to take when they consume the blood).
The prevention of the song is what leads to intelligence.

The whole point of the Architect's experiments is to take the resistance to the song from Warden blood, not the resistance to the taint.

AT BEST this is speculation on your part and the architects.  What seems more reasonable and likely is that the taint that both the Darkspawn and the Grey Warden's share permit the Darkspawn to "tolerate" the elements in human blood that suprise rage and base emotion....and this in turn makes them sapient....and ALSO as a side effect mutes the song.  Remember that Grey Wardens hear the calling too and only put it off for so long so it's resistance not immunity.

Given that, you can not know that all Darkspawn will suddenly awaken if the last old god is killed, but you DO know that if you permit the architect to suceed, you have smart and fundamentally antagonistic darkspawn that fundamentally view humanity as prey forever.  Not a hard choice there.  The architect must die.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What I "KNOW" is that drinking Grey Warden blood = resistance to the song = no longer hearing the song = awakening.
If the song no longer exists, the first step is unnecessary.

You can stop repeating yourself. 

You don't know this at all.  The only think you know is that Drinking Grey Warden Blood can make Darkspawn awaken.  The rest is speculation and conjecture on your part.  As for the Architect, he is a poor guide since he seems to be wrong most of the time.

-Polaris

[tmelange]

IanPolaris wrote...

*snip*

You are putting all of humanity at risk for an unproven SPECULATION while CERTAINLY making a race that is fundementally antagonistic to humanity (and views them as Prey) stronger.

Nice.

-Polaris

Not only unproven and UNPROVABLE speculation, but from an unreliable and fundamentally antagonistic source.

I think it's the height of hubris for ONE gray warden to think s/he could make such a decision on such a shoddy basis for all of humanity -- a game-changing decision with incalculable ramifications. It would make much more sense to me if the "Spare the Architect" side would do so only if it involved tying him up and taking him back to some higher tribunal. In that case, I'm confident that more reasonable heads would prevail. LOL

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmelange wrote...
No one knows exactly what the ingestion of the warden blood accomplishes: is it the ingestion of the blood that creates resistance to the taint, that enables intelligence, that THEN severs the bestial connection, that THEN prevents the hearing of the song...or is it the ingestion of the blood, that inhibits the taint, that THEN cuts off the song, that THEN enables intelligence?

That doesn't make any sense. The darkspawn don't need the resistance to the taint, they are already resistant to it (which is what the Wardens want to take when they consume the blood).
The prevention of the song is what leads to intelligence.

The whole point of the Architect's experiments is to take the resistance to the song from Warden blood, not the resistance to the taint.

AT BEST this is speculation on your part and the architects.  What seems more reasonable and likely is that the taint that both the Darkspawn and the Grey Warden's share permit the Darkspawn to "tolerate" the elements in human blood that suprise rage and base emotion....and this in turn makes them sapient....and ALSO as a side effect mutes the song.  Remember that Grey Wardens hear the calling too and only put it off for so long so it's resistance not immunity.

The Architect succeeded in freeing darkspawn. His "specualtion" is thus far stronger than yours that quite frankly makes 0 sense.

I nevfer said the darkspawn become immune to the song, I said they would resists it. But when the old Gods are destroyed, there would be no more song to resist. Thus the whole point of drinking Grey wArden blood is unnecessary.

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmelange wrote...
No one knows exactly what the ingestion of the warden blood accomplishes: is it the ingestion of the blood that creates resistance to the taint, that enables intelligence, that THEN severs the bestial connection, that THEN prevents the hearing of the song...or is it the ingestion of the blood, that inhibits the taint, that THEN cuts off the song, that THEN enables intelligence?

That doesn't make any sense. The darkspawn don't need the resistance to the taint, they are already resistant to it (which is what the Wardens want to take when they consume the blood).
The prevention of the song is what leads to intelligence.

The whole point of the Architect's experiments is to take the resistance to the song from Warden blood, not the resistance to the taint.

The darkspawn are the source of the taint. The warden blood can merely allow them to master the effects of their tainted blood on their mental faculties.

The wardens take in the tainted blood so they can be resistant to the effects of the contagion as humans etc. and so they can share in the collective awareness.

Modifié par tmelange, 25 mars 2010 - 07:47 .