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[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmelange wrote...
No one knows exactly what the ingestion of the warden blood accomplishes: is it the ingestion of the blood that creates resistance to the taint, that enables intelligence, that THEN severs the bestial connection, that THEN prevents the hearing of the song...or is it the ingestion of the blood, that inhibits the taint, that THEN cuts off the song, that THEN enables intelligence?

That doesn't make any sense. The darkspawn don't need the resistance to the taint, they are already resistant to it (which is what the Wardens want to take when they consume the blood).
The prevention of the song is what leads to intelligence.

The whole point of the Architect's experiments is to take the resistance to the song from Warden blood, not the resistance to the taint.

The darkspawn are the source of the taint. The warden blood can merely allow them to master the effects of their tainted blood on their mental faculties.

Their mental faculties are like this because of the song. All the evidence point to this. Even the Mother says so. Her silence is due to the absence of the song, not the resistance to the taint that she doesn't need.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Architect succeeded in freeing darkspawn. His "specualtion" is thus far stronger than yours that quite frankly makes 0 sense.

He also started the blight or are you conveniently forgetting that.  He also seems to think the best way to parley with Grey Wardens is to attack their keep with a well planned sneak attack from BELOW and then kill as many non-Grey Wardens as possible while dragging off as many Grey Wardens as possible.

The Architect is a real friend of peace (sarc).

I nevfer said the darkspawn become immune to the song, I said they would resists it. But when the old Gods are destroyed, there would be no more song to resist. Thus the whole point of drinking Grey wArden blood is unnecessary.

You don't KNOW that it's the song that keeps the Darkspawn non-sapient.  The Artitect may have just stumbled upon a solution that allows the Darkspawn to tamp down the rage and emotions inherent in their taint and thus making them Sapient. 

You are justifying sparing the Architect who WILL make the Darkspawn intelligent (and thus far more dangeous) while doing nothing to solve their fundamentally hostile nature and ecology with the excuse that "it will happen anyway" which you do not and CAN NOT know.

Absolutely not.  Sigrun is right.  Helping the architect is a monumentally stupid thing to do.  Even the Wiki entry on the Architect cautions the reader that no matter how reasonable the Architect seems, he must always be treated as what he is:  A darkspawn.  His "offer" needs to be treated he same way (and discarded).

-Polaris

[Volourn]

"I don't think it's necessary to arm them with further intelligence just so they can be an even greater threat to the humanoid population. I don't think providing an enemy with an increased tactical advantage (Here, Iran, take these nuclear weapons; we feel bad that your sovereignty is impinged by not having them!) is analogous to or necessary for or defines our own "freedom". Despite what is being debated here, I dispute the notion of the darkspawn being "enslaved" and feel that the only point in the game where they are compelled to do anything at all is once THEY succeed in corrupting the song. Prior to that point, they seem fairly intelligent, fairly organized, quite vindictive (as King Cailan can attest to) and hardly unhappy with their lot in life"



As A shows, the darkspawn awakening makes them less likely to blindlessly work together. In fact, the two factions are at war kiklling each other. The Architect, a darkspawn, is fighting a holy broodmother. I'm sure that was unheard of. How many times in the darkspawn aras of the game did we come across the two fanctions fighting each other? Quite a bit.



You even get the option to let the Messenger fight by yiour side when saving the city. And, he does so well. He ven goes on to be a robin hood.



Before A, there was nmo thinking involved when dealing with the darkspawn. There wa sno choice.



People keep bringing up that by 'awakening' them we're giving the go ahead to them to kidnap other races' women. That's nonsense.



Should we wipe out all elves because Velanne decided to mass murder humans? Shouild all elves murder every human because humans enslave their race? Should mages mass murder Chantry worshippers just because the church inprisons mage?



Awakening the darkspawn gives them a choice. I certyainly don't see the architect going out of his way to create more broodmothers. But, the unawakened darkspawn most certainly are.



If the darkspawn choose to attack us after being awakened, then attack them. But, give them a choice if it in our power to do so.



How many of us chose to spare Velanna depsite her mass murders? Did we simply spare her simply because she was an elf? Afterall, her being tricked by the darkspawn doens't give her the excuse to murder every caravan that goes by.



Damn the architect for his immoral deeds 9which he most certainly is guilty of a few); but don't damn him because of his race.



It's also the reason why I didn't kill the messenger.



It's why I let the Architect live. He wasn't attacking me.



In fact, he offered his help in killing a broodmother.



Intelligenjt darkspawn will likely do what other intelligent races do. Some will wnat to live in peace, others will want to conquer, some will become racists, others will be mass murders, others will be heroes. *shrug*



We're better off not having the darkspawn as one united front.



Free the darkspawn to free ourselves!

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Their mental faculties are like this because of the song. All the evidence point to this. Even the Mother says so. Her silence is due to the absence of the song, not the resistance to the taint that she doesn't need.

Evidence would be nice.  You haven't provided any.  Near as I can tell, the taint itself is like a drug that causes emotions to run rampant at the cost of mental acuity (see Ghoul) even when there is no song...and in a lot of ways Broodmother are just a very special form of Ghoul (as are Grey Wardens btw)

-Polaris

[Behindyounow]

Whether or not the Architect is killed is irrelevant. The experiments will continue. The Seeker is still out there, and the way the Architect writes about him suggests he was the Architect's lab assistant. Maybe he has less moral scruples?

[IanPolaris]

Volourn,



I will make this simple: Elves don't need to eat humans and rape human women just to survive. Elves don't outbreed humans 1000:1 (conservative estimate) and don't lay the land to waste (and spread uncurable disease) everywhere they go.



The Darkspawn do all of these things. This is what I mean when I say that even IF the Darkspawn fight each other, they can not coexist with humanity. Morality has nothing to do with it. When one race must destroy yours to survive, then Genocide is the appropriate response. It's either humanity or the Darkspawn. Time to step up and take a side.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Behindyounow wrote...

Whether or not the Architect is killed is irrelevant. The experiments will continue. The Seeker is still out there, and the way the Architect writes about him suggests he was the Architect's lab assistant. Maybe he has less moral scruples?

If true, then it makes any choice irrelevant.  However, my Grey Warden can at least do his part to keep the Darkspawn from being a greater threat than they already are.

-Polaris

"Sigrun was right"

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Architect succeeded in freeing darkspawn. His "specualtion" is thus far stronger than yours that quite frankly makes 0 sense.

He also started the blight or are you conveniently forgetting that.  He also seems to think the best way to parley with Grey Wardens is to attack their keep with a well planned sneak attack from BELOW and then kill as many non-Grey Wardens as possible while dragging off as many Grey Wardens as possible.

The Architect is a real friend of peace (sarc).

The blight would have happened with our without him. Point very moot.

Being ignorant about another species and how they would react is irrlevent to his knowldge about his own species, their predicaments and the experiments he made to prove his point and succeed in freeing some of his bretheren. Point very moot.
 
Him being peaceful is also irrelevent to the point at hand.

IanPolaris wrote...

I nevfer said the darkspawn become immune to the song, I said they would resists it. But when the old Gods are destroyed, there would be no more song to resist. Thus the whole point of drinking Grey wArden blood is unnecessary.

You don't KNOW that it's the song that keeps the Darkspawn non-sapient.  The Artitect may have just stumbled upon a solution that allows the Darkspawn to tamp down the rage and emotions inherent in their taint and thus making them Sapient. 

And how can you transfer emotions and resistance to rage from blood? how does that make sense?
And if that was true, why didn't he mention it in his notes, while he clearly mentions the song?

Yes, we do know that it's the song that keeps the darkspawn the way they are. That's what drives the darkspawn to do what they do. That's what drives them to look for the old Gods (the song). And that's what drives them to obey the Archdemon and start a blight.

Quite frankly, I am tried of this repetition. If you can't even admit the fact the Architect will know more about his own species than your character and that he wouldn't lie in his notes, then there is no point in arguing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2010 - 08:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Their mental faculties are like this because of the song. All the evidence point to this. Even the Mother says so. Her silence is due to the absence of the song, not the resistance to the taint that she doesn't need.

Evidence would be nice.  You haven't provided any.  Near as I can tell, the taint itself is like a drug that causes emotions to run rampant at the cost of mental acuity (see Ghoul) even when there is no song...and in a lot of ways Broodmother are just a very special form of Ghoul (as are Grey Wardens btw)

-Polaris

Wrong. Ghouls start listening to the song as well. Go talk to Ruck and see what he has to say.
The Wardens dream about the archdemon and start hearing the song because of the taint they absorbed.

The fact that the darkspawn search for the olg Gods and then start the blight is because of the song. The fact that they become slaves to the Archdemon is because of the song.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2010 - 08:02 .

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmelange wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmelange wrote...
No one knows exactly what the ingestion of the warden blood accomplishes: is it the ingestion of the blood that creates resistance to the taint, that enables intelligence, that THEN severs the bestial connection, that THEN prevents the hearing of the song...or is it the ingestion of the blood, that inhibits the taint, that THEN cuts off the song, that THEN enables intelligence?

That doesn't make any sense. The darkspawn don't need the resistance to the taint, they are already resistant to it (which is what the Wardens want to take when they consume the blood).
The prevention of the song is what leads to intelligence.

The whole point of the Architect's experiments is to take the resistance to the song from Warden blood, not the resistance to the taint.

The darkspawn are the source of the taint. The warden blood can merely allow them to master the effects of their tainted blood on their mental faculties.

Their mental faculties are like this because of the song. All the evidence point to this. Even the Mother says so. Her silence is due to the absence of the song, not the resistance to the taint that she doesn't need.

To make a unilateral statement: "Their mental facilities are like this because of the song," that has NO BASIS in anything is...beyond my ability to understand, from a debate's perspective.

Would it be easier to understand if I had said "resistance to the effects of having tainted blood" rather than "resistance to the taint"? Because I don't understand how you can say that the darkspawn don't need to have a resistance to the taint..because they're tainted, lol...when everything they are is BECAUSE they are tainted. The warden's blood can simply allow them to develop an immunity to the parts of the taint (their nature) that is in their blood that inhibits intelligence. The song need have nothing to do with the primary issue; it can simply be a by-product.

And the fact that the broodmother harps on that by-product doesn't mean that it isn't the blood that is the pre-requisite, not the termination of the song. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...
The song need have nothing to do with the primary issue; it can simply be a by-product.

Except that the darkspawn seek and find the old gods and follow the Archdemon because of the song. And except that Ruck even starts hearing the song and wants to go after it. And except that the Mother was quite clear on what made her the way she is (not hearing the song).

That's the evidence that the song is what drives the darkspawn to do what they do.

The fact that it's the darkspawn's very nature to be tainted makes it pointless to develop a resistance to it. They aren't sick. They simply make others sick, even when Awakened (the Messenger).

The song is not a simple "by-product". I quite frankly would trust the Architect's notes more than I would trust your speculation that has no evidence anywhere.

[tmelange]

Behindyounow wrote...

Whether or not the Architect is killed is irrelevant. The experiments will continue. The Seeker is still out there, and the way the Architect writes about him suggests he was the Architect's lab assistant. Maybe he has less moral scruples?

It's not irrelevant in that it's still a decision that has to be made. It may not stop the intelligent darkspawn that have already been created, but it will cut off one of their heads. Kill the Seeker as soon as the opportunity presents itself, or hunt him down specifically.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The blight would have happened with our without him. Point very moot.

Absolutely not.  Otherwise, scores of murderers world wide could be aquitted by, "well someone else would have killed him anyway".  When an assassin kills a target, it's pretty safe to assume that if that particular assassin doesn't do the job some other assassin will.  The assassin that does the deed is still guilty of murder.

Same here.  Even if the blight would have happened anyway does NOTHING to mitigate the moral fact that the Architect started the whole blight which should make everyone question his motives.

Being ignorant about another species and how they would react is irrlevent to his knowldge about his own species, their predicaments and the experiments he made to prove his point and succeed in freeing some of his bretheren. Point very moot.

This is beyond L-A-M-E.  Yes the architect uses this as an excuse but it should be a mindnumbingly hollow one...even to you.  ANY creature that is self-aware in even the smallest degree will attack and try to kill those that attack it.  That being so, what did the Architect THINK was going to happen when he told his disciple (Withered) to engage in a sneak attack (this wasn't an off the cuff encounter that went bad...the Darkspawn planned with malice aforethought to be as viciously effective as possible in the attack).  I wouldn't believe a word the architect says about his motives for attacking Vigil keep because of this...and neither should any of you. 

Him being peaceful is also irrelevent to the point at hand.

Quite the contrary.  The ONLY justifiable reason to keep the Architect alive would be if he were trying to find a viable way for humanity and Darkspawn to peacefully coexist.  Since the Architect clearly is doing nothing about Broodmothers or the fundamental (and fatal) spread of the taint (and indeed tries to encourage the entire Ghoulification of humanity in the Calling), it's safe to say that the Architect does not have humanity's best interests at heart...to put it mildly.

Quite frankly, I am tried of this repetition. If you can't even admit the fact the Architect will know more about his own species than your character and that he wouldn't lie in his notes, then there is no point in arguing.

There is no point in arguing.  I never claimed to know any of that.  However, you are directly putting the future of humanity in dire peril by making a race that is fundamentally incapable of coexisting with it stronger based on nothing but sheer speculation.  I am maintaining the status quo which as cruddy as it is.....it at least insures that humanity might have a future instead of virtually assuring that it doesn't.  You assume a great many things as facts that are nothing of the sort.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Volourn,

I will make this simple: Elves don't need to eat humans and rape human women just to survive. Elves don't outbreed humans 1000:1 (conservative estimate) and don't lay the land to waste (and spread uncurable disease) everywhere they go.

The Darkspawn do all of these things. This is what I mean when I say that even IF the Darkspawn fight each other, they can not coexist with humanity. Morality has nothing to do with it. When one race must destroy yours to survive, then Genocide is the appropriate response. It's either humanity or the Darkspawn. Time to step up and take a side.

-Polaris

My opinion is that darkspawn become sentient sooner or later. if the last 2 old gods are killed then their is a large chance that this "old god" song goes with it.  So it doesn't really matter but the architect despite his rather insane ideas is trying to establish a permanent peace with the service races. Also darkspawn that are freed can make their own path look at the messenger . He is acting in a way that no darkspawn should be behaving.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wrong. Ghouls start listening to the song as well. Go talk to Ruck and see what he has to say.
The Wardens dream about the archdemon and start hearing the song because of the taint they absorbed.

Read what I post.  I never said that Ghould didn't hear the song but as you admit so to Grey Wardens.  That doesn't mean that the Song makes them mindless.  You provide NO evidence for that.  Also Ruck is a bit of a special case because he became a ghoul during a blight (and the song is far stronger during a blight).

The fact that the darkspawn search for the olg Gods and then start the blight is because of the song. The fact that they become slaves to the Archdemon is because of the song.

Yes, but that does NOT IMPLY that they are non-sapient because of the Song.  Get it? 

-Polaris

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The whole point of drinking Grey Warden's blood is to take the resistance to the song. That's all that it involves.

  

Grey Wardens are also subject to the song's pull once the taint is advanced to a certain level in their blood.  I'm not sure how this is even supposed to work in darkspawn who are completely subject to the taint.

[IanPolaris]

DKJaigen wrote...

My opinion is that darkspawn become sentient sooner or later. if the last 2 old gods are killed then their is a large chance that this "old god" song goes with it.  So it doesn't really matter but the architect despite his rather insane ideas is trying to establish a permanent peace with the service races. Also darkspawn that are freed can make their own path look at the messenger . He is acting in a way that no darkspawn should be behaving.

The key part of that is "sooner or later".  There is no evidence to support that when the song goes away, the Darkspawn will all awaken instantanously.  It's quite possible (even likely) that over time, more and more Darkspawn will awaken without a song.  However, that is time that humanity cfan use to eliminate the Darkspawn especially if they start killing each other (which Darkspawn are prone to do without direction even when they are not awakened....multiple sources confirm this).

There can be no permanent peace with the "service" races other than total enslavement or destruction by one against the other.  The ecology of the Darkspawn precludes this.  In this the writers have backed themselves into a corner.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The Messenger has been "awakened" which means he can make moral decisions.  Even so, I kill him too (very reluctantly) because ultimately Darkspawn and humanity simply can not coexist (as the epilog cards imply if you spare him....he spreads the taint).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 mars 2010 - 08:19 .

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmelange wrote...
The song need have nothing to do with the primary issue; it can simply be a by-product.

Except that the darkspawn seek and find the old gods and follow the Archdemon because of the song. And except that Ruck even starts hearing the song and wants to go after it. And except that the Mother was quite clear on what made her the way she is (not hearing the song).

That's the evidence that the song is what drives the darkspawn to do what they do.

The fact that it's the darkspawn's very nature to be tainted makes it pointless to develop a resistance to it. They aren't sick. They simply make others sick, even when Awakened (the Messenger).

The song is not a simple "by-product". I quite frankly would trust the Architect's notes more than I would trust your speculation that has no evidence anywhere.

I'm going to have to stop replying to these posts; they make no sense to me.

The argument isn't that the darkspawn don't do SOME of what they do because of the song. That's a given. The issue I was addressing was the one about the causality of the inception of intelligence. Two separate issues. My answers were in rebuttal to your insistence that it's the cessation of the song that, in fact, is the sole cause enabling darkspawn to awaken AND that the end of the old gods means that the song will cease which THEN means all darkspawn will awaken anyway.

Once again, there is no proof that it is the fact that the darkspawn can't hear the song that enables their intelligence; all we know is that an intelligent darkspawn can't hear the song.

The reliance on the broodmother's insane rantings is simply ludicrous. But, clearly, the fact that she is fixated on the loss of the song doesn't mean that she knows what it is that caused the severing or what was the actual progenitor of her intelligence.

Modifié par tmelange, 25 mars 2010 - 08:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The blight would have happened with our without him. Point very moot.

Same here.  Even if the blight would have happened anyway does NOTHING to mitigate the moral fact that the Architect started the whole blight which should make everyone question his motives.

His motives were clear, to free his people and not out of malice. It would have happened anyways.
His intervention had a slight chance to avoid the blight, or start it. If he didn't do anything, it would have been 100% certain that it would have happened. So the act is jsutified imo.

Plus the morality of the act has nothing to do with the point at hand.

Being ignorant about another species and how they would react is irrlevent to his knowldge about his own species, their predicaments and the experiments he made to prove his point and succeed in freeing some of his bretheren. Point very moot.

This is beyond L-A-M-E.  Yes the architect uses this as an excuse but it should be a mindnumbingly hollow one...even to you.  ANY creature that is self-aware in even the smallest degree will attack and try to kill those that attack it.  That being so, what did the Architect THINK was going to happen when he told his disciple (Withered) to engage in a sneak attack (this wasn't an off the cuff encounter that went bad...the Darkspawn planned with malice aforethought to be as viciously effective as possible in the attack).  I wouldn't believe a word the architect says about his motives for attacking Vigil keep because of this...and neither should any of you. 

Completely besides the point, which was about the song.
The fact that he did what he did does not mean he knows nothing about his own species and how to free them. Be consitent with your arguments and stop dertailing and going in tagents.

Him being peaceful is also irrelevent to the point at hand.

Quite the contrary.  The ONLY justifiable reason to keep the Architect alive would be if he were trying to find a viable way for humanity and Darkspawn to peacefully coexist.  Since the Architect clearly is doing nothing about Broodmothers or the fundamental (and fatal) spread of the taint (and indeed tries to encourage the entire Ghoulification of humanity in the Calling), it's safe to say that the Architect does not have humanity's best interests at heart...to put it mildly.

I have already discussed this in more detail before and I really don't want to copy paste. And again, that has nothign to do with what we are arguing about. The relation between the song and the darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wrong. Ghouls start listening to the song as well. Go talk to Ruck and see what he has to say.
The Wardens dream about the archdemon and start hearing the song because of the taint they absorbed.

Read what I post.  I never said that Ghould didn't hear the song but as you admit so to Grey Wardens.  That doesn't mean that the Song makes them mindless.  You provide NO evidence for that.  Also Ruck is a bit of a special case because he became a ghoul during a blight (and the song is far stronger during a blight).

The reason why the Wardens go to die early is to avoid being mindless, that's in the codexes.
They realise that the song and the dreams eventually turn them mindless.

It's irrelevent if the song became stronger or not. The point is that Ruck was dominated by the song mentally. That's the point.

The fact that the darkspawn search for the olg Gods and then start the blight is because of the song. The fact that they become slaves to the Archdemon is because of the song.

Yes, but that does NOT IMPLY that they are non-sapient because of the Song.  Get it? 

Yes, it does. If the darkspawn no longer hear the song, they are no longer driven to search for the old gods and to follow the archdemon.

The song is clearly an impulse that the darkspawn are subjected to. You can't be fully sentient if you are controlled by an impulse like the song.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...
Once again, there is no proof that it is the fact that the darkspawn can't hear the song that enables their intelligence; all we know is that an intelligent darkspawn can't hear the song.

The Architect's notes and his ssuccesful experiments are the proof. And it's written in his notes, which means he has little reason to lie.

But I can't argue with the assumption that whatever the Architect says is a lie because he is "evilz". So we are going in circles.

Suffice to say that I find the Architect a much more reliable source on this specific issue than what you are saying. No reason for mycharacter to doubt him in that specific issue.  

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
His motives were clear, to free his people and not out of malice. It would have happened anyways.
His intervention had a slight chance to avoid the blight, or start it. If he didn't do anything, it would have been 100% certain that it would have happened. So the act is jsutified imo.

Plus the morality of the act has nothing to do with the point at hand.

Morality has everything to do with the issue because morality gives us a window into motive.  The point is the Architect cared nothing for the possible consequences of his actions (and this is also true in the Calling as well) and seems consistantly unable to ask himself, "what if things go wrong".  The FACT is that the Architect is guilty of attempted Genocide by starting the blight.  He didn't have to do it.  Whether or not it would have happened anyway is irrelevant.

Completely besides the point, which was about the song.
The fact that he did what he did does not mean he knows nothing about his own species and how to free them. Be consitent with your arguments and stop dertailing and going in tagents.

My point is completely consistant.  You can not trust the Architect at his word.  Given that he DOES know his own "people", he had to know what would happen when he ordered them to do a sneak attack on Vigil Keep.  That tells me that the Architect is lying to you.  If he is lying to you in this, chances are he is lying to you in other matters as well.  The excuse that the Architect did not know that his peace feeler to the wardens would be interpreted as an attack, doesn't even pass the laugh test much less the smell test.  You attack (let alone sneak attack) ANY self aware creature, and it will attack you back....including Darkspawn.   The Architect is lying to you.

I have already discussed this in more detail before and I really don't want to copy paste. And again, that has nothign to do with what we are arguing about. The relation between the song and the darkspawn.

Again it has everything to do with it.  Again there is no DIRECT evidence that not hearing the song CAUSES the Darkspawn to become Sapient.  All we know is that if the Darkspawn drink Grey Warden Blood, then become Sapient and in so doing lose the ability to hear the song (or it is muted at the very least).  Everything else in your argument involves speculation and speculation from a source that is fundamentally untruthful and antangonistic.

This isn't a hard decision.  The Architect must die.

-Polaris

"Sigrun Was Right"

[master-fluff]

Why is no one thinking of the Childrens ?



From what I understand, The Children are corrupted darkspawn produced only by The Mother who just happens to be the only broodmother "freed" by The Architect, right ? By siding with The Architect and 'freeing' the darkspawn, aren't you also giving them a potential army of Children to play with ?



The darkspawn wouldn't be subjugated into peace by fear of dying as some Architect apologists seem to be suggesting, they could just send the kids out to play.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ IanPolaris
The Architect's NOTES (not what he tells me) and his success is all the evidence I need to know that he is right in that particular issue. The rest is irrelevent.

If a scientist lied to me about a certain thing, that wouldn't make me doubt his notes, especially if his experirments wielded the results he wanted.
The Architect is a more reliable source on this issue than you for one.

I am tired to repeating myself.
His motives are secondary to why I spare him. The fact that he can potentially avert the blights and provide guidance to a species that will be freed anyhow is the primary reason. His motives are anotehr issue, that I have already discussed in detail before and I won't do so again.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Architect's notes and his ssuccesful experiments are the proof. And it's written in his notes, which means he has little reason to lie.

He may have little reason to lie in his notes, but that doesn't mean he's right.  Even the architect admits that much of what he is writing is speculation on his part.  The ONLY thing we know is that drinking GreyWarden blood permits some Darkspawn to master their taint enough to become truly Sapient.  Everything past that including what's in the Architect's notes is simply speculation.

So it's not proof. It's not even close to proof.

But I can't argue with the assumption that whatever the Architect says is a lie because he is "evilz". So we are going in circles.

I never said the Architect was evil.  From the persespective of his own race, I'd call him a hero.  I consider the Architect to be a tragic figure actually....which doesn't stay my hand for the slightest moment.  The fact is that fundamentally on a very basic biological and ecological level, Darkspawn and humanity can not coexist.  Eventually one must destroy the other (and if humanity gets destroyed then ultimately so wil the Darkspawn....which makes me inclined to beleive that for once the Chantry may actually be touching on the truth...the Darkspawn have all the earmarks of a non-viable ecological plague).

Suffice to say that I find the Architect a much more reliable source on this specific issue than what you are saying. No reason for mycharacter to doubt him in that specific issue.  

The architect lies to you multiple time including the attack on Vigil's keep.  He's not a good person to believe.

-Polaris