1316 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never claimed we could live side by side in peace (although the darkspawn messenger is proof that they can be benevolent).

Perhaps the Architect's experiments will give the darkspawn a new means of reproduction. Perhaps not.
Even still, I think the death of a few of our females, while regretable, is better than having to face the remaining blights.
And they do not seem to need that many broodmothers anyhow. One broodmother can give birth to hundreds.

For me, it was a choice between havign to face 2 blights that seek nothign but complete annihilation, or having to face a rational and reasonable enemy. And if the blights are not averted, then the Architect can prove to be a valuable ally. 

I realise I am tkaing a big leap of faith, the Architect said so himself. But like I said, the potential benefits outweight the risks.

Whoa, so we're back to sacrificing women to the monsters to avert a greater disaster? LOL That's...whoa. You really think we should just hope they find food and procreative methods that don't include humans, and put faith in this one architect to control his newly created frankensteins? He's already proven that he has no control over the process with the mother. The mother exists because of the Architect. He was wrong as to the nature of one darkspawn, and look at the devastation against humans that one darkspwn wrought. He's responsible for that as much if not more than she is.

If that's what it takes to avoid the death of millions or total annihilation for the 2 coming blights, then yes so be it.
But they will have to fight to get those women.

He tried to fix his mistake and he can learn from it. And if he fails, he can be delt with later. To kill him there and now while he could potentially avert the blight or be an ally against them is a waste.
He took a risk and he knows this, but at least he was trying to fix and learn from his mistake. I respect that.

tmelange wrote...
And, of course, the mother begs the question: if the broodmother started off as a human (and is a corrupted human), why didn't "freeing" her from the dark god song restore her humanity and empathy? It simply drove her crazy and nothing human seemed to remain. Where's the proof that the darkspawn are supposed to evolve the way the Architect says?

The messenger is proof.

tmelange wrote...
It's like the "first contact" conundrum. If you provide a species with something from outside their evolutionary path, thinking to help them, you are just as likely to completely destroy everything. The Architect is not god. Just as the PC can leave it to faith regarding whether the darkspawn will be able to exist alongside humans, the PC can leave it to faith that there will be another way.

Kill the Architect. If the maker wants the darkspawn to be intelligent and thus free, the maker will provide the means. LOL

I would much rather aid the Architect than pray for the "maker".
And you are not god to deny the darkspawn the right to be a real people, instead of being animals. Goes both ways.

How is it likely it will destroy everything?
The 2 blights are the things that can destroy everything. Not the architect. No matter how much destruction he brings, it won't be equal to what a blight can potentially do.

They don't have an evolutionary path, they are enslaved. If they can be freed than they deserve that freedom. And even if they decide to keep fighting humans, I prefer to have a rational and reasonable enemy that has shown to have some principles, rather than fight raging beasts.

[DanaScu]

SDNcN wrote...

Gaider confirmed Duncan is dead.

The Architect had Velanna's sister and Utha along with anyone else they convinced/brainwashed.

Remember Archdemon blood isn't really needed for a joining, it just makes it so they are certain they are ingesting enough of the taint to undego the joining instead of simply becoming tainted. They have ample supply of Darkspawn blood to use to make their own "Wardens".

It takes, iirc, lyrium and mages to prepare the blood used for the joining. Duncan says something about the mages finishing the preparation, before the joining ceremony.

David Gaider wrote...

The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not make one a Grey Warden. Most likely Joseph would come down with the blight and become a ghoul in short order. The villagers would have found him delerious and sick with fever, and if he survived he would have disappeared one night and never been seen again.



Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work. Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows? If he drank enough, maybe it might work. I don't doubt a story of an "accidental" Grey Warden could be justified, although it would take some doing.

David Gaider wrote...



No. We're talking about the concentration of the taint, and in a short span of time, and not just the quantity of blood. The reason Archdemon blood is used is because it's the easiest way to get the concentration required, but it's not the *only* way. Regardless, just drinking the blood of a normal, run-of-the-mill darkspawn isn't usually going to cut it -- that's why magical means are usually required.



Note that simply recovering from the taint (which is possible -- Dog did it, after all -- though it's rare) is not enough. You must have both the quick concentration of the taint AND the recovery. I use the word "recovery" loosely, however. As the poster above me mentions, even Grey Wardens don't become immune to the taint. They still suffer from it in the long run.

Plus, I read a spoiler about the Architect and the last blight. I doubt my dwarf noble would spare him.

[LadyDamodred]

Out of curiosity, I tried both endings. And then I went with my original instinct and killed the Architect.



My PC cannot see how letting the Architect carry out his plan is a good idea. After what happened with the Blight, humanity and the darkspawn cannot live side by side in peace. The fact that the Architect captured and experimented on her does not help his case. If she, and the others who come after her, have to fight an enemy, she would rather they fight mindless creatures, rather than thinking, intelligent monsters who operate on cruelty as well as instinct.



It's a lesser of two evils choice. She considers the harm from Blights led by intelligent darkspawn to be a greater threat than simply having the next two Blights. For her, the potential risk far outweighs the potential reward.



I also killed the messenger, but there was no bug in the epilogue.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
It's a lesser of two evils choice. She considers the harm from Blights led by intelligent darkspawn to be a greater threat than simply having the next two Blights. For her, the potential risk far outweighs the potential reward.

Technically, if the darkspawn are freed from the shackles that bind them to the old Gods, then there would be no more blights. Only the Old Gods turned Archdemon could lead to blights, as the song binds alll the darkspawn under its leadership. If the darkspawn can be freed from this "song", then the old Gods cannot lead any future blight.

So it's a choice between an intelligent darkspawn civilisation that may or may not be hostile, and even if it is hsotile it probably will not seek to annihilate all life (individual darkspawns, like the messenger have proven capable of benevolence). Or the 2 remaining blights that are coming for sure and that will be intent to eradicate all life.

For me, the decision is clear. Even if the Architect fails to free all the darkspawn from the song, he could still prove to be an ally against the future blights. He has knowledge, intelligence and a determination to free his people from the old gods that would be a pity to waste.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 mars 2010 - 01:16 .

[Sarah1281]

What if there was an outcry to round up and kill the very people who had saved the world from extinction? Would all wardens simply go quietly into that good night?

I doubt it. If the last of the Archdemons died and the Wardens truly felt that the darkspawn were gone or were so weak as to never be able to recover and thus their order was defunct then they would simply stop making new ones. Grey Wardens don't taint others and thus there really is no point to killing them. Besides, the Wardens are so secretive no one would have enough information to decide that.

Nothing he said swayed my DN because even if the darkspawn retreated peacefully, the dwarves were still the clean-up crew while the surfacers break out the bottles of wine and go back to blissful lives. We were going to want to reclaim our thiags in the meantime and what happens when we run into talking, intelligent darkspawns in the process? Yeah, that is just flat-out irresponsible and not in the best interest of the dwarves.

Oh, I totally agree. Everyone else would just be happy to forget the darkspawn were still around for another four hundred years and the dwarves would still be slowly dying. It's really an 'us vs. them' situation while the humans and elves could concievably coexist with them as long as the darkspawn remain in their underground lairs. Which isn't likely.



IS the Grey Wardens sole job to end the Blight? I don't think they ever said that. Ending the Blights are the most important job they have, certainly, but why are Blights bad? Yes, the Archdemon is very powerful but the South fell in the first game and no one mentioned any flying dragons and even if the Archdemon was personally present, it couldn't do all that damage alone. The Archdemon wasn't at Ostagar, for example, and even though Cailan was being reckless, the reason they were massacred so badly were because the darkspawn were smart and attacked the tower and the mages first.



So in other words, Blights are bad because intelligent darkspawn are so much more dangerous than mindless roaming darkspawn. How could any even remotely responsible Warden decide that two more Blights which could occur centuries apart and in the future is worse than intelligent darkspawn now and forever? The Archdemon really isn't the only threat and it's only important because it's destruction renders the darkspawn unorganized and less of a threat.



Besides, how quickly does the Architecht think he can make every existing darkspawn a disciple anyway? Who's to say he really will stop the Blights? Maybe he'll dilligently do the best he can to convert as many as possible (and continue making mistakes like the Fifth Blight and the Mother) and in the meantime darkspawn elsewhere that have nothing to do with him find another Old God?



Even if the Architect means what he says and is as good as his word, he's not going to live forever. The darkspawn aren't just going to revert back to mindless creatures again once he's gone or else what's the point of his crusade?



Intelligent darkspawn forever that kill people by their very presence and will inevitably at some point have a few who want to attack humans, elves, and/or dwarves for whatever reason are far more dangerous than two Blights in my book.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
It's a lesser of two evils choice. She considers the harm from Blights led by intelligent darkspawn to be a greater threat than simply having the next two Blights. For her, the potential risk far outweighs the potential reward.

Technically, if the darkspawn are freed from the shackles that bind them to the old Gods, then there would be no more blights. Only the Old Gods turned Archdemon could lead to blights, as the song binds alll the darkspawn under its leadership. If the darkspawn can be freed from this "song", then the old Gods cannot lead any future blight.

So it's a choice between an intelligent darkspawn civilisation that may or may not be hostile, and even if it is hsotile it probably will not seek to annihilate all life (individual darkspawns, like the messenger have proven capable of benevolence). Or the 2 remaining blights that are coming for sure and that will be intent to eradicate all life.

For me, the decision is clear. Even if the Architect fails to free all the darkspawn from the song, he could still prove to be an ally against the future blights. He has knowledge, intelligence and a determination to free his people from the old gods that would be a pity to waste.

Except we see from the Mother that some darkspawn go insane without the song.  I took that to mean they would do anything to find it again, ie, finding the remaining two old gods.  It could be that that was left intentionally vague for a reason.  There is also no way to guarantee that the Architect could free them before they find the old gods anyway, or even that he could be truly successful at freeing them all.  He also said nothing about the darkspawn not preying on humanity anymore.  And when the next old god awakens (b/c I truly do not believe that it's all just over now) there will be intelligent darkspawn willing to work with/for it.  The idea of a Blight like that is not worth it, in my PC's eyes.

[tmelange]

nranola wrote...

I agree, the lack of information is very unsettling. But since there are still things left unexplained, wouldn't you say it would be rash to kill him right there?

Ordinarily, yes. But there was no way to know if anything he said was true, or to assess his  immediate intentions. I know he was involved in the killing or bloodletting of a contingent of wardens. I know I found implements of torture in his compound, and I know he took MY blood without my consent when he had me in his power. I wouldn't leave him at my back for any reason, even the off chance that he might have some sort of master plan that would benefit us in some way. 

I would treat him just like I'd treat a demon from the fade: blow smoke at him until I got what I needed and then kill him, because whether or not his plan has merit, he can't be trusted. The Architect had nothing that I thought I needed, so it seem best to end him right there, when I had him in my grasp. )

[tmelange]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
It's a lesser of two evils choice. She considers the harm from Blights led by intelligent darkspawn to be a greater threat than simply having the next two Blights. For her, the potential risk far outweighs the potential reward.

Technically, if the darkspawn are freed from the shackles that bind them to the old Gods, then there would be no more blights. Only the Old Gods turned Archdemon could lead to blights, as the song binds alll the darkspawn under its leadership. If the darkspawn can be freed from this "song", then the old Gods cannot lead any future blight.

So it's a choice between an intelligent darkspawn civilisation that may or may not be hostile, and even if it is hsotile it probably will not seek to annihilate all life (individual darkspawns, like the messenger have proven capable of benevolence). Or the 2 remaining blights that are coming for sure and that will be intent to eradicate all life.

For me, the decision is clear. Even if the Architect fails to free all the darkspawn from the song, he could still prove to be an ally against the future blights. He has knowledge, intelligence and a determination to free his people from the old gods that would be a pity to waste.

Except we see from the Mother that some darkspawn go insane without the song.  I took that to mean they would do anything to find it again, ie, finding the remaining two old gods.  It could be that that was left intentionally vague for a reason.  There is also no way to guarantee that the Architect could free them before they find the old gods anyway, or even that he could be truly successful at freeing them all.  He also said nothing about the darkspawn not preying on humanity anymore.  And when the next old god awakens (b/c I truly do not believe that it's all just over now) there will be intelligent darkspawn willing to work with/for it.  The idea of a Blight like that is not worth it, in my PC's eyes.

This is my take on the lore too. It's not the song that corrupts the darkspawn; it's the darkspawn that corrupt the song. Then they corrupt the old god. That's the issue behind Morrigan solution. The baby has the soul of an old god, which is not evil. It's the darkspawn corruption of the god that causes the problem.

If you free the darkspawn from the song, it doesn't mean that they still won't seek to corrupt the old god. It doesn't at all mean the end to the blight, because it can be argued that the darkspawn's nature is to CORRUPT that which is pure, even that which is most pure (god). They bring the blight with them. The old god merely provides the intelligent design, which takes the darkspawn hundreds of years to corrupt. All the Architect could be doing is enabling the corruption sans the old god dirrection, because their own intelligence would substitute. ( a neverending, persistent blight, rather than a blight in waves of which you only have to survive 2 more)

Seems to me that IF the darkspawn are the descendants of the trevintar mages who corrupted the city of the gods, then they have been cursed to corrupt everything they touch, and they are drawn to the old god soul in the same way they were drawn to the city of gods, and they corrupt the old god, in the same way. The darkspawn are the blight. 

Freeing the blight (darkspawn) from the limitation of having to take the time to find (corrupt) an intelligent prime mover might be very unwise...lol

Modifié par tmelange, 20 mars 2010 - 01:43 .

[Edge2177]

I spared the Architect but I honestly don't see how the storyline can change, the Grey Wardens are an integral part of the world as well as the Blight.



Morrigan's child is born, and has a control over the darkspawn, being that it is able to invoke the calling.



And you have to decide between killing your own son or the Architect's people. Sounds a little too predictable to me.

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*snip*

[

tmelange wrote...
And, of course, the mother begs the question: if the broodmother started off as a human (and is a corrupted human), why didn't "freeing" her from the dark god song restore her humanity and empathy? It simply drove her crazy and nothing human seemed to remain. Where's the proof that the darkspawn are supposed to evolve the way the Architect says?

The messenger is proof.

But weigh the benefit of the one success against the devastation of the one mistake.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They don't have an evolutionary path, they are enslaved. If they can be freed than they deserve that freedom. And even if they decide to keep fighting humans, I prefer to have a rational and reasonable enemy that has shown to have some principles, rather than fight raging beasts.

They can only be enslaved if they were one time somehow "free". Dogs aren't enslaved simply because they're dogs and live life according to a dog's nature; bees aren't enslaved because they adhere to their nature and the "song" of the hive mind. Dogs and bees and birds don't need to be freed. Not everything is supposed to be walking and talking and thinking for itself.

[Sarah1281]

Morrigan's child is born, and has a control over the darkspawn, being that it is able to invoke the calling.



And you have to decide between killing your own son or the Architect's people. Sounds a little too predictable to me.

That seems unlikely. While the child could very well be a threat in its own right, if the darkspawn get near it, it will be tainted like it was in its previous incarnation. Humans are no more immune from the taint than old gods. Unless, of course, the child becomes a GW but then presumably it's not out to destroy the world.

[fanman72]

I read "The Calling" first, that's why I spared him. I dont think I would have otherwise. It gives you a very different perspective on the character, similar to how the Stolen Throne gives a different perspective on Loghain

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Except we see from the Mother that some darkspawn go insane without the song.  I took that to mean they would do anything to find it again, ie, finding the remaining two old gods.  It could be that that was left intentionally vague for a reason.  There is also no way to guarantee that the Architect could free them before they find the old gods anyway, or even that he could be truly successful at freeing them all.  He also said nothing about the darkspawn not preying on humanity anymore.  And when the next old god awakens (b/c I truly do not believe that it's all just over now) there will be intelligent darkspawn willing to work with/for it.  The idea of a Blight like that is not worth it, in my PC's eyes.

If the darkspawn are controlled by the song again, then they are no longer free, independent and intelligent, so we have a normal blight. There is no fear of an "intelligent" Blight, because by definition, a blight is when the darkspawn are all controlled by one intelligent being, which is the Archdemon.

Yes some might go insane without the song. But with the song, they are slaves to the old gods. Little difference really. Even if the Architect fails miserably and all darkspawn are turned insane, if they can no longer feel the song, there will be no more blights. And they will most likely end up killing each other.

And no, I don't think the Architect can free all of them. But if he can free a great many of them, then he can be an ally against the blights.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 mars 2010 - 02:05 .

[tmelange]

Sarah1281 wrote...

*snip*

IS the Grey Wardens sole job to end the Blight? I don't think they ever said that. Ending the Blights are the most important job they have, certainly, but why are Blights bad? Yes, the Archdemon is very powerful but the South fell in the first game and no one mentioned any flying dragons and even if the Archdemon was personally present, it couldn't do all that damage alone. The Archdemon wasn't at Ostagar, for example, and even though Cailan was being reckless, the reason they were massacred so badly were because the darkspawn were smart and attacked the tower and the mages first.

So in other words, Blights are bad because intelligent darkspawn are so much more dangerous than mindless roaming darkspawn. How could any even remotely responsible Warden decide that two more Blights which could occur centuries apart and in the future is worse than intelligent darkspawn now and forever? The Archdemon really isn't the only threat and it's only important because it's destruction renders the darkspawn unorganized and less of a threat.

Exactly. The archdemon isn't the blight. The darkspawn are the blight. They corrupt the old god, which turns into a demon, so they can have a general to unite the horde. If you take away the need for them to spend hundreds of years corrupting a god to drive them, and enable them to substitute their own, intelligent, speaking darkspawn as prime movers with the ability to unite the horde by virtue of REASON instead of compulsion, you still have a blight.

It's just a blight that doesn't come in waves. There is no 400-year respite to forget and rebuild. The is just persistent, neverending blight.

The darkspawn corrupt by proximity. That is their nature. I'm not sure how we could get behind the Architect's plan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*snip*

[

tmelange wrote...
And, of course, the mother begs the question: if the broodmother started off as a human (and is a corrupted human), why didn't "freeing" her from the dark god song restore her humanity and empathy? It simply drove her crazy and nothing human seemed to remain. Where's the proof that the darkspawn are supposed to evolve the way the Architect says?

The messenger is proof.

But weigh the benefit of the one success against the devastation of the one mistake.

But the success came after the mistake. The Architect surely learned from his mistake.

tmelange wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They don't have an evolutionary path, they are enslaved. If they can be freed than they deserve that freedom. And even if they decide to keep fighting humans, I prefer to have a rational and reasonable enemy that has shown to have some principles, rather than fight raging beasts.

They can only be enslaved if they were one time somehow "free". Dogs aren't enslaved simply because they're dogs and live life according to a dog's nature; bees aren't enslaved because they adhere to their nature and the "song" of the hive mind. Dogs and bees and birds don't need to be freed. Not everything is supposed to be walking and talking and thinking for itself.

But the darkspawn, primarly the Architect have shown capable of thinking and reasoning. Dogs haven't, at least not yet.
The Architect was born free and he doesn't know how. For him, he is the evolution of the darkspawn. If indeed the darkspawn are not meant to be free, then how come the Architect was born that way?

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Except we see from the Mother that some darkspawn go insane without the song.  I took that to mean they would do anything to find it again, ie, finding the remaining two old gods.  It could be that that was left intentionally vague for a reason.  There is also no way to guarantee that the Architect could free them before they find the old gods anyway, or even that he could be truly successful at freeing them all.  He also said nothing about the darkspawn not preying on humanity anymore.  And when the next old god awakens (b/c I truly do not believe that it's all just over now) there will be intelligent darkspawn willing to work with/for it.  The idea of a Blight like that is not worth it, in my PC's eyes.

If the darkspawn are controlled by the song again, then they are not longer free, independent and intelligent, so we have a normal blight. There is no fear of an "intelligent" Blight, because by definition, a blight is when the darkspawn are all controlled by one intelligent being, which is the Archdemon.

Yes some might go insane without the song. But with the song, they are slaves to the old gods. Little difference really. Even if the aRchitect fails miserably and all darkspawn are turned insane, if they can no logner feel the song, there will be no more blights. And they will most likely end up killign each other.

And no, I don't think the Architect can free all of them. But if he can free a great many of them, then he can be an ally against the blights.

We need a loremaster or a supreme basileus, lol, because I think we're operating under different notions of how the blight works and the nature of the old gods. I'm under the impression that the old god soul is not evil; that it becomes corrupted by the darkspawn. That the song is not necessarily evil, but once the god is corrupted, it becomes a force to drive the entire horde by compulsion, and since it is evil (corrupted) at that point, the compulsion is to dire ends.

I'm not convinced that the darkspawn need to be freed from the song. Perhaps the song controls the darkspawn, rendering them fairly harmless, and it's only when they succeed in corrupting the song that all hell breaks loose. Free them from the song, which maybe controls their nature, and perhaps you are breaking the one thing needed to control their corruption so it doesn't overtake the world.

Maybe the song is the door that binds satan. LOL

Modifié par tmelange, 20 mars 2010 - 02:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree that the lore isn't too clear on that one. My understanding is that the song is not "evil" in and of itself, but the darkspawn are still enslaved to it. And in their yearning to search of it, as they think it's beautiful, they end up corrupting the source, the old God, whether willingly or not, thus beginning a blight, where the Archdemon clearly controls all the darkspawn.

So it doesn't matter if the song is corrupted or not. The darkspawn are still enslaved by it. To free them from its control, would mean that the darkspawn would no longer search for the old Gods.

[RPGmom28]

I spared him just to shake things up. I've read the DA books and saw the potential there for something interesting to happen in the future based upon my actions. And that's pretty much what I'm aiming for.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If the darkspawn are controlled by the song again, then they are no longer free, independent and intelligent, so we have a normal blight. There is no fear of an "intelligent" Blight, because by definition, a blight is when the darkspawn are all controlled by one intelligent being, which is the Archdemon.

Yes some might go insane without the song. But with the song, they are slaves to the old gods. Little difference really. Even if the Architect fails miserably and all darkspawn are turned insane, if they can no longer feel the song, there will be no more blights. And they will most likely end up killing each other.

And no, I don't think the Architect can free all of them. But if he can free a great many of them, then he can be an ally against the blights.

Let me explain better.  I think they would be driven to the old gods b/c they want the song back.  I do not think that once freed they would be returned to being normal darkspawn.  Their touch still corrupts, however, and when they found the old god, they would corrupt it.  And being insane, I think they would still serve it.  The old god awakens, takes control over all the darkspawn who have no yet been freed and now you have a Blight plus the intelligent, crazy freed darkspawn.  This seems like a poor idea to me.

And my character does not trust the Architect, so there is no reason for her to think she should use him as an ally against the Blight.  Again, it seems like a poor idea.

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*snip*

But the darkspawn, primarly the Architect have shown capable of thinking and reasoning. Dogs haven't, at least not yet.
The Architect was born free and he doesn't know how. For him, he is the evolution of the darkspawn. If indeed the darkspawn are not meant to be free, then how come the Architect was born that way?

This is a great question. I don't know the answer. LOL What I would think, however, is that the intelligence of the Architect (one being) does not prove that the darkspawn need to be freed. There could be any number of reasons why he's talking and reasoning. Maybe he's a mage, or a child of a mage, that was lost to darkspawn and possessed by a fade spirit, and he thinks just because his circumstance exists it necessarily must be replicated. I could think of a thousand scenarios where his existence would be unique, and not applicable to the darkspawn horde generally.

I mean, he doesn't even look like a darkspawn. That in itself leads me to believe that he's an anomaly and not an evolution.

As an example, suppose a nuclear power plant blew up, and a person subsequently was born with four arms and two heads. It doesn't necessarily mean that all people should be born with four arms and two heads. The person might have been born that way, and might not know why s/he was born that way, and the condition could even be beneficial to that individual, but that doesn't mean that the entire species should evolve in that direction.

Who knows why the Architect achieved intelligence? But! If it happened of its own accord for him, I'm content to see if it happen of its own accord for the rest of the darkspawn horde WITHOUT the Architect and the crazy experiments on wardens.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If the darkspawn are controlled by the song again, then they are no longer free, independent and intelligent, so we have a normal blight. There is no fear of an "intelligent" Blight, because by definition, a blight is when the darkspawn are all controlled by one intelligent being, which is the Archdemon.

Yes some might go insane without the song. But with the song, they are slaves to the old gods. Little difference really. Even if the Architect fails miserably and all darkspawn are turned insane, if they can no longer feel the song, there will be no more blights. And they will most likely end up killing each other.

And no, I don't think the Architect can free all of them. But if he can free a great many of them, then he can be an ally against the blights.

Let me explain better.  I think they would be driven to the old gods b/c they want the song back.  I do not think that once freed they would be returned to being normal darkspawn.  Their touch still corrupts, however, and when they found the old god, they would corrupt it.  And being insane, I think they would still serve it.  The old god awakens, takes control over all the darkspawn who have no yet been freed and now you have a Blight plus the intelligent, crazy freed darkspawn.  This seems like a poor idea to me.

And my character does not trust the Architect, so there is no reason for her to think she should use him as an ally against the Blight.  Again, it seems like a poor idea.

You are assuming that an intelligent darkspawn, if he corrupts an Old God, gets controlled by the song again, would not lose his intelligence.
That doesn't make sense.

Intelligence = independence.
The Mother wanted to restore the song because she felt empty without it. Had she succeeded, she would have returned into being a content slave, she wouldn't retain her intelligence, as her autonomy and independent thinking is taken away and replaced by the will of the Archdemon.

Plus, remember that the Mother no longer hears the song. She can't even find the old god, which I think drove her to madness. If all the darkspawn are freed from the song, they can no logner serarch for the old Gods, insane or not.

In summary:
The darkspawn become free if they can no longer hear the song of the Old Gods. They can either become insane or not. The fact that they become intelligent is preciely because they lost that song.
If they reclaim it, they will return exactly like they were before. Pawns, to the will of the Archdemon. So they wouldn't be intelligent, as they are not capalbe of free thinkiing. Think reaper indocrination, it''s similar.

So there is no possiblity of an intelligent blight. The only intelligent being in a blight is by definition the Archdemon. As all the darkspawn are enraptured by its song.
Only the Architect seems immune to this and he doesn't know why and how.

[tmelange]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I agree that the lore isn't too clear on that one. My understanding is that the song is not "evil" in and of itself, but the darkspawn are still enslaved to it. And in their yearning to search of it, as they think it's beautiful, they end up corrupting the source, the old God, whether willingly or not, thus beginning a blight, where the Archdemon clearly controls all the darkspawn.
So it doesn't matter if the song is corrupted or not. The darkspawn are still enslaved by it. To free them from its control, would mean that the darkspawn would no longer search for the old Gods.

But the old god (or even the archdemon it becomes) is not the blight. The blight is the word used to describe the unification of the darkspawn horde under one banner to the destruction of the human lands. Any prime mover, any "Alexander", could serve the same purpose, provided the darkspawn unite behind it en masse. 

By enabling intelligence in the darkspawn, you, in effect, raise the possibility (if not the probability) that any number of charismatic leaders will arise at any time who can do through charisma, or politics, or coersion, exactly what the archdemon does through compulsion: unite the horde in a blight against humanity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...
Who knows why the Architect achieved intelligence? But! If it happened of its own accord for him, I'm content to see if it happen of its own accord for the rest of the darkspawn horde WITHOUT the Architect and the crazy experiments on wardens.

So he could live as a pariah for his entire existance?

Think about it. You are the only intelligent and free person and you see your people being uncivilised, savage and enslaved to the song they hear. Wouldn't you want to do something about it?

All the Architect's crazy experiments pale in comparision to what his bretheren do when they find an Archdemon.
Yes, the Architect is very ambitious. Perhaps impossibly so. But I respect that.
If there is any hope of the darkspawn becoming something other than the blind locust that they are, it's the Architect.

I am not sayign you are wrong mind you. It actually took me 10 minutes, while pausing the game, to come to a decision. I am still not sure about it.
But I believe that if the Architect can free his people, then he and his bretheren deserve the right to be free and to build their own civilisation. 

[tmelange]

fanman72 wrote...

I read "The Calling" first, that's why I spared him. I dont think I would have otherwise. It gives you a very different perspective on the character, similar to how the Stolen Throne gives a different perspective on Loghain

Can you provide some detail? I'd really like to know, and I don't have the book. t would be great if I could play through the expansion one more time with a totally different perspective.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmelange wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I agree that the lore isn't too clear on that one. My understanding is that the song is not "evil" in and of itself, but the darkspawn are still enslaved to it. And in their yearning to search of it, as they think it's beautiful, they end up corrupting the source, the old God, whether willingly or not, thus beginning a blight, where the Archdemon clearly controls all the darkspawn.
So it doesn't matter if the song is corrupted or not. The darkspawn are still enslaved by it. To free them from its control, would mean that the darkspawn would no longer search for the old Gods.

But the old god (or even the archdemon it becomes) is not the blight. The blight is the word used to describe the unification of the darkspawn horde under one banner to the destruction of the human lands. Any prime mover, any "Alexander", could serve the same purpose, provided the darkspawn unite behind it en masse. 

By enabling intelligence in the darkspawn, you, in effect, raise the possibility (if not the probability) that any number of charismatic leaders will arise at any time who can do through charisma, or politics, or coersion, exactly what the archdemon does through compulsion: unite the horde in a blight against humanity.

No, by definition, the Blight only occurs with an Archdemon.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Blight

Only the Archdemon has enough control and power to enslave the whole species to its will, via the song.
If the darkspawn are freed, they can still organise hordes, but it won't be like the blight. Just liek we never had any human warlord capable of uniting all humans under his rule and banner.

Furthermore, the purpose of the blight is to eradicate all life and not a single darkspawn has a say in it. If the darkspawn are freed and capable to think for their own, they don't have to obey anyone. But with the song and an archdemon, they have no choice.