1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Volourn]

"I think if there is any sacrificing to be done, it should be men who should be raped and forced to mutilated birthing of thousands of monsters out their a-holes"



Your are sexist.





"Statistically speaking most serial killers are male."



Your point outside of trying to contiunue the stereotype of 'men are evil'?







Free the darkspawn to free ourselves!





Genocide is NEVER the answer. And, to compare talking intelligent creatures (awakened darkspawn) who have the capibility to choose right from wrong to something like smallpox is silly, silly rationalization to make it okay to committ genocide.



And, do we really know if darkspawn are going to (or are evn) limited in the way to reproduce? Afterall, they could never talk before either yet here they are talking. They could never be negotiated with ebfore yet here they. they never saw non darkspawn as anything but things to kill yet here they are SAVING them.



The moment the architect 'awoke' everything aboutt he darkspawn changed. They are no longer mindless beings. They can think. they can right and wrong decisions. And, we shouldn't treat them as one big group.



Should we judge all humans based oin the actions of Hitler or Martin Luthor King or Mother Teresa or me? No. That would be silly.



Three intelliogent darkspawn acting differently in A should prove this.



Mother = crazy



Architect = man on a mission to 'save' his kinfolk from a curse they did NOT choose.



Mesenger = Cult figure of goodness ala Robin Hood



Remember, folks, Broodmothers INCLUDING A's Mother *are* actually tained other races' females. You shoudln't rush to kill them. A's Mother was crazy and killing her was an act of defending oursleves. But, what happens if a broodmother 'awakens' but isn't crazy? Let us not kill her based on the Mother's actions.



FREE THE DARKSPAWN TO FREE OURSELVES!

[sylvanaerie]

krylo wrote...

Edit: Huh, first time I've had this thing Double post on me.

Yea I hate that. My internet gets buggy and it seems something doesn't post but does LOL

As to Tranquil not feeling pain/feelings or being just dolls, I think Owain might disagree with that (he doesn't feel like a non person).  I tend to believe they are more like Mr Spock except where he suppresses his feelings, they just don't access them.  But they DO feel pain.  Pain can be a physiological response and we don't know what kind of pain a broodmother goes through, we have only the experience of Hespith to go by.  Of course the emotional pain is going to be more but thats not the only pain involved in the transformation.  Not to mention IF by then the darkspawn are sentient this person knows they are just going to be breeding and breeding and breeding more darkspawn to infest the world.  Owain says he didn't want to die, he would prefer the tower go back to the way it was.  He went to the stock room because he felt more comfortable/safe there.  They ARE aware of their own existence and they want to preserve that existance.

And what if there are no serial killers/blood mages to choose from?  Not every village in Thedas is going to have them, so do we use the lotttery system then?

[Volourn]

No. The better idea is let the darkspawn awaken if darkspawn continue to attack then you deal with them. Just like you should deal with any potential threat. Nobody should be forced into becoming a broodmother. Just like nobody should be forced into ebcoming a Tranquil. Seems to me humans can be rather barbaic. They don't need DS to be that.



heck, I ended up killing more 'normal races' than darkspawn in O. Not as much in A since it was HEAVILY focused on darkspawn,

[Efesell]

Man I remember going through that little dialogue branch with Owain.

Felt like such a jerk.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Nope. The dreams are about the OLD GODS aka the source of the song. It's not dreams that come out of nowhere. It's consistent dreams about one single thing, the source of the song.

What is your source for this?  In Origins, Grey Wardens are dreaming about the archdemon, but that is because he is tainted.  Otherwise the dreams appear simply to be sleeping echoes of the Wardens sensing the darkspawn.  Oghren describes them as whispers and shadows, not as an insistent song.

It's called "The Calling" for a reason. It's the calling of the old Gods (the song).
Oghren can't hear it because he hasen't been a Warden for long. Alistair tells us that Wardens start experiencing more vivid dreams as time goes on, eventually be able to listen and understand the dreams. And that happens in times without a blight and without an archdemon.

The taint and the song are defiantely linked, but are not the same. One cannot hear the song without being tainted. But one can be tainted without hearing the song (Disciples, Mother, aka the Awakened). That for me shows that it's the Song is the heart of the issue. The taint doesn't produce random dreams. It produces very specific dreams that eventually call to the Wardens, as it calls to all the darkspawn.

I think the book "The Calling" talks about this. The Darkspawn and the WArdens are related because they both experience the calling. The difference is the Wardens can resist it up to a certain time. The Darkspawn can't.
I think, and this is personal speculation on my part, that the corruption of the taint that the Wardens aren't immune to, makes it impossible for them to resists the song permanently. The darkspawn on the otherhand are immune to the taint. They aren't sick. What they lack is the resistance to the song they take from the Wardens. Coupeld with their innate immunity to the taint, they can be permanently resistant to the song.

As for Krylo's solution being morally reprehensible. Both he and I have admitted that it is an ugly solution. But it's less morally reprehensible than the arguments I read today, about exterminating the darkspawn regardless of their intelligence or their morality.
At least I and Krylo have expressed sadness about doing this. Others seem to be perfectly fine with the idea of genocide.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2010 - 11:53 .

[CybAnt1]

This thread isn't about whether or not to genocide the darkspawn. I'm not even sure it's possible. Thedas doesn't have nuclear weapons, and even the awesomest AoEs can't seem to wipe out more than 20 at a time.



It's whether or not to trust the Architect. (I think that's separate from the issue of what to ultimately do about the darkspawn.)



I'll ask again: **Anybody know what the Architect did to us while unconscious**?



Oh he's so trustworthy Mr. No Eyes ... he says all he did was borrow a little bit of our blood - no biggie! He's just running a blood bank!



Oh waitasecond -- you don't, right? -- shouldn't that factor into whether you trust him or not?



Let me point something out I think nobody so far has mentioned.



Did anybody get a close look at the four experimental subjects? I did. They all are not only carrying your NPCs gear (and yours), they LOOK LIKE THEM (but with some mis-shapen disfigurement), and you.



Anybody stopped to wonder *why* you ran into four "experimental subjects" who looked like you & your companions, and were carrying around your stuff (ignoring the bug, of course)?



Say, could this be another aspect of the Architect's "Plan" he forgot to mention?



Hmmmmmmm?

[sylvanaerie]

CybAnt1 wrote...

This thread isn't about whether or not to genocide the darkspawn. I'm not even sure it's possible. Thedas doesn't have nuclear weapons, and even the awesomest AoEs can't seem to wipe out more than 20 at a time.

It's whether or not to trust the Architect. (I think that's separate from the issue of what to ultimately do about the darkspawn.)

I'll ask again: **Anybody know what the Architect did to us while unconscious**?

Oh he's so trustworthy Mr. No Eyes ... he says all he did was borrow a little bit of our blood - no biggie! He's just running a blood bank!

Oh waitasecond -- you don't, right? -- shouldn't that factor into whether you trust him or not?

Let me point something out I think nobody so far has mentioned.

Did anybody get a close look at the four experimental subjects? I did. They all are not only carrying your NPCs gear (and yours), they LOOK LIKE THEM (but with some mis-shapen disfigurement), and you.

Anybody stopped to wonder *why* you ran into four "experimental subjects" who looked like you & your companions, and were carrying around your stuff (ignoring the bug, of course)?

Say, could this be another aspect of the Architect's "Plan" he forgot to mention?

Hmmmmmmm?

 Umm well actually...the experiment wearing Valora's (my PC) gear was a guy so it wasn't a clone if thats what you are getting at?

[Volourn]

I never claimed the Architect is Mr. Trustworthy. He definite does some underhanded atatics. But, that by itself, is not a reason to outright kill him. When you get the chance to kill him, he is OFFERING to help you. Afterall, we would never have found the Mother's Lair (well, it would have taken longer, anyways) without his (and the messenger's) help.



What i would have liked tos ee is the same option we got in WK where we let the guy continue his experiements as long as tones down the murder, torture, and myahem,.



ie. Getting TA to agree not to kidnap/murder/steal other GW blood forcefully. Onjl\\y to take GW blood if it swillingly offered.



So, while I agree that TA isn't some angel; he's also not worthy of being completely written off since he *can* be reasoned with.

[sylvanaerie]

Volourn wrote...

I never claimed the Architect is Mr. Trustworthy. He definite does some underhanded atatics. But, that by itself, is not a reason to outright kill him. When you get the chance to kill him, he is OFFERING to help you. Afterall, we would never have found the Mother's Lair (well, it would have taken longer, anyways) without his (and the messenger's) help.

What i would have liked tos ee is the same option we got in WK where we let the guy continue his experiements as long as tones down the murder, torture, and myahem,.

ie. Getting TA to agree not to kidnap/murder/steal other GW blood forcefully. Onjl\\\\y to take GW blood if it swillingly offered.

So, while I agree that TA isn't some angel; he's also not worthy of being completely written off since he *can* be reasoned with.

No.  If you tell him no then you have to kill him.  He doesn't give you a choice to just let him go, he attacks you.  Someone attacks me I am going to defend myself.  

He isn't reasonable, he's polite, there's a huge difference.

[CybAnt1]

 Umm well actually...the experiment wearing Valora's (my PC) gear was a guy so it wasn't a clone if thats what you are getting at?

Uh huh. So why are four experimental subjects walking around with your gear? 

Just what experiments were they "experimental subjects of" -- hmmm?

The one who had Velanna's stuff looked just like a ghoul-ish version of Velanna. I swear it was the spitting image. And was wearing her clothes. 

Damn straight that's the first thing I thought. 

Bugger has a secret cloning program going on here. 

[tmelange]

CybAnt1 wrote...

This thread isn't about whether or not to genocide the darkspawn. I'm not even sure it's possible. Thedas doesn't have nuclear weapons, and even the awesomest AoEs can't seem to wipe out more than 20 at a time.

It's whether or not to trust the Architect. (I think that's separate from the issue of what to ultimately do about the darkspawn.)

I'll ask again: **Anybody know what the Architect did to us while unconscious**?

Oh he's so trustworthy Mr. No Eyes ... he says all he did was borrow a little bit of our blood - no biggie! He's just running a blood bank!

Oh waitasecond -- you don't, right? -- shouldn't that factor into whether you trust him or not?

Let me point something out I think nobody so far has mentioned.

Did anybody get a close look at the four experimental subjects? I did. They all are not only carrying your NPCs gear (and yours), they LOOK LIKE THEM (but with some mis-shapen disfigurement), and you.

Anybody stopped to wonder *why* you ran into four "experimental subjects" who looked like you & your companions, and were carrying around your stuff (ignoring the bug, of course)?

Say, could this be another aspect of the Architect's "Plan" he forgot to mention?

Hmmmmmmm?

Exactly. Once you get past the rooms full of dead bodies, with no concern for dignity or last rights, and the crazy implements of torture, and the fact that the Architect experimented on you before he tried to talk to you; and tried to kill you rather than let you escape; and the crazy experiments, all of which seem to have had some serious negative ramifications to the wardens, to humanoids, to the world, with the only "good" (and I say that mockingly) being that a few "intelligent" darkspawn were created (notice that I didn't say "freed") at the expense of a huge loss of life; and the sneak attacks; and the pitting of humanoids against each other; and add in the crazy experimental subjects running around looking like you and your team and in your armor (Why? Perhaps another instance of a foe hoping to replace a real person with a copy?) -- what's not to believe? OF COURSE, I believe he has the best interests of humans and the whole world in mind. OF COURSE, he shouldn't have to pay for any of it. He's not a menace to society. He's a real hero. I need to invite him over for tea.

[Volourn]

"No. If you tell him no then you have to kill him. He doesn't give you a choice to just let him go, he attacks you. Someone attacks me I am going to defend myself.



He isn't reasonable, he's polite, there's a huge difference."



I said he can be reasoned with. I didn't say he was always reasonable.



And, yes., He didn't attack me so I felt no need to attack him. *shrug*

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Volourn wrote...

I never claimed the Architect is Mr. Trustworthy. He definite does some underhanded atatics. But, that by itself, is not a reason to outright kill him. When you get the chance to kill him, he is OFFERING to help you. Afterall, we would never have found the Mother's Lair (well, it would have taken longer, anyways) without his (and the messenger's) help.

What i would have liked tos ee is the same option we got in WK where we let the guy continue his experiements as long as tones down the murder, torture, and myahem,.

ie. Getting TA to agree not to kidnap/murder/steal other GW blood forcefully. Onjl\\\\\\\\y to take GW blood if it swillingly offered.

So, while I agree that TA isn't some angel; he's also not worthy of being completely written off since he *can* be reasoned with.

No.  If you tell him no then you have to kill him.  He doesn't give you a choice to just let him go, he attacks you.  Someone attacks me I am going to defend myself.  

He isn't reasonable, he's polite, there's a huge difference.

Eum, when you say "no" to him, it's you saying "Time to die" or "Let's end this" or something to that effect.
You weren't telling him "No thanks, but I prefer if you desist" and he chose to kill you.

You were backing him to the corner.

[krylo]

tmelange wrote...
I'll put my morals up against your  morals any day.

Going to be honest: Everything you have said, from LOL ridden posts, to, well, this, has reeked of both arrogance and ignorance.

Done with you.

You seem to completely lack critical thinking skills on any level, and believe that you can compensate for such weaknesses with  base insults and pure arrogance.  I'm no longer wasting my time.

Now to move on to intelligent detractors:

sylvanaerie wrote...
As to Tranquil not feeling pain/feelings or being just dolls, I think Owain might disagree with that (he doesn't feel like a non person).

But he also admits to not ever feeling fear, or any other kind of emotional Trauma.  His ideas of personhood differ greatly from my own.

At the end of the day, however, it doesn't matter what Owain thinks, because he lacks the very thing that makes humans human.  It's not intellect--for if it were we would have to subscribe to the idea that the mentally disadvantaged are not human.  No, it's the ability to feel.  To empathize.  To feel joy, love, and pain. 

Owain, and the rest of the Tranquil, feel none of that.  I agree with Jowan over Owain when it comes to the Tranquil.

But they DO feel pain.  Pain can be a physiological response

No physiological response compares to real pain.

Ever lost a loved one?

Ever had a broken bone?

Which would you rather happen again?

Of course the emotional pain is going to be more but thats not the only pain involved in the transformation.

I'd argue it's the only pain that matters however.  The transformation ends eventually, and for all the things wrong with Mother she didn't appear to be in constant pain.  The only lasting scars such a thing could then leave would be emotional scars.  However, the Tranquil would never suffer this.

They would go through a few days, maybe a week, of honest pain.  Everything else Hespith described was psychological, not physical.

Not to mention IF by then the darkspawn are sentient this person knows they are just going to be breeding and breeding and breeding more darkspawn to infest the world.

In a world in which they are intelligent and have agreed to such things as peace measures... is it really fair to use that kind of language?

They will know that by their actions they are saving hundreds of thousands of lives that fullscale war between the darkspawn and the surface races/dwarves would result in, as well.

Owain says he didn't want to die, he would prefer the tower go back to the way it was.  He went to the stock room because he felt more comfortable/safe there.

I always found this odd, to be honest.  It doesn't seem the action that a man would take given what we know of the Tranquil.  Apparently self preservation instinct still survives, however.

Though, apparently, in a rather weakened form.

Though, inconsistencies like this are part of the reason I would prefer to use the worst criminals I could find.  I suggest you look back to the discussion I had about justifying these actions, already.  Even if they were fully feeling and thinking people, I think it might be something I'd still feel compelled to pull the trigger on.

The options, are, after all as follows:

1) Full out war of genocide.  Who wins that altercation is anyone's guess, and has just a s good a chance to end with humans, elves, dwarves, and qunari enslaved to the darkspawn, kept alive in numbers only great enough to breed to create more broodmothers as it does with the extermination of the darkspawn. And, either way, such a campaign would result in fighting the darkspawn on their own territory.  A single ogre is described as being able to slaughter battalions of trained soldiers, on the surface.  What do you think the entire darkspawn horde would do to the armies of man in their own home?  There would be millions upon millions of casualties.

This may, however, have been worth it, even knowing the number of casualties, if not for the intelligent darkspawn.  Now that they are thinking feeling beings in their own right, this would be genocide.

2) What we have now.  Limited surface raids to claim broodmothers.  This would result in, most likely, more brood mothers than a trade treaty as the darkspawn would need to reproduce more often to keep their numbers up when they are fighting a constant guerilla war with every species on Thedas.  But, more than that, it means that the women taken will be uncontrolled.  

These will not be criminals.  These will not be volunteers.

These will be innocent villagers.  These will be 12 year old little girls, and 20 year old fresh brides.  These will be whomever the darkspawn can take and in numbers as large as the darkspawn can grab.  Age won't even be an issue.  A little girl could be kept alive for years, until she is old enough to breed.

3) You control who they get.  You send them women who have committed terrible crimes, and/or have become tranquil unable to feel the true extent of the terror inflicted on them.  You send them volunteers going into that dark night happily to keep others from experiencing said pain.


Given those options, I will gladly choose the third option.  First option is second choice.

Second option, however?

That's not an option at all.  No matter how you view the darkspawn, no matter what you think of them?  NOT making peace with them OR wiping them out is the most terrible thing you can do.  Even if you believe it too terrible to send women to become broodmothers--all you accomplish by not doing so is ensuring that it is innocents who are taken.

And what if there are no serial killers/blood mages to choose from?  Not every village in Thedas is going to have them, so do we use the lotttery system then?

I don't see this as ever being an issue.  One broodmother can produce how many darkspawn?  How quickly?  Honestly, one every couple of years would probably be enough to keep their numbers static once they quit warring with everyone 100% of the time.

They'd only need them as their old ones died off.  Just keep the particularly terrible people around in a tranquil state until they are needed. 

Modifié par krylo, 26 mars 2010 - 12:03 .

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Volourn wrote...

I never claimed the Architect is Mr. Trustworthy. He definite does some underhanded atatics. But, that by itself, is not a reason to outright kill him. When you get the chance to kill him, he is OFFERING to help you. Afterall, we would never have found the Mother's Lair (well, it would have taken longer, anyways) without his (and the messenger's) help.

What i would have liked tos ee is the same option we got in WK where we let the guy continue his experiements as long as tones down the murder, torture, and myahem,.

ie. Getting TA to agree not to kidnap/murder/steal other GW blood forcefully. Onjl\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\y to take GW blood if it swillingly offered.

So, while I agree that TA isn't some angel; he's also not worthy of being completely written off since he *can* be reasoned with.

No.  If you tell him no then you have to kill him.  He doesn't give you a choice to just let him go, he attacks you.  Someone attacks me I am going to defend myself.  

He isn't reasonable, he's polite, there's a huge difference.

Eum, when you say "no" to him, it's you saying "Time to die" or "Let's end this" or something to that effect.
You weren't telling him "No thanks, but I prefer if you desist" and he chose to kill you.

You were backing him to the corner.

And the PC wasn't? it was cooperate with him or die.  I think this was more game mechanics than anything though, you aren't given an option C.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Eum, when you say "no" to him, it's you saying "Time to die" or "Let's end this" or something to that effect.
You weren't telling him "No thanks, but I prefer if you desist" and he chose to kill you.

You were backing him to the corner.

And the PC wasn't? it was cooperate with him or die.  I think this was more game mechanics than anything though, you aren't given an option C.

Exactly. So we can't know what the Architect would have done if you presented him with an option C. Like "Leave, but stop doing what you are doing".
I think that he would have left, but would not stop. But he wouldn't try to kill you, for a simple reason. He needs someone to kill the Mother (he can't himself).

[master-fluff]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Let me point something out I think nobody so far has mentioned.

Did anybody get a close look at the four experimental subjects? I did. They all are not only carrying your NPCs gear (and yours), they LOOK LIKE THEM (but with some mis-shapen disfigurement), and you.

You know, I didn't spot that, but then I've only put my mage through Awakening and she tends to nuke things from a distance.

There are so many more unanswered questions after Awakenings when I was really hoping for a better understanding.  Now I'm more confused about the whole storyline and the world of Thedas.  It's becoming a bit too flaky for me and I wonder if the plot will ever come together. 

[tmelange]

krylo wrote...

tmelange wrote...
I'll put my morals up against your  morals any day.

Going to be honest: Everything you have said, from LOL ridden posts, to, well, this, has reeked of both arrogance and ignorance.

Done with you.

You seem to completely lack critical thinking skills on any level, and believe that you can compensate for such weaknesses with  base insults and pure arrogance.  I'm no longer wasting my time. 

I was done with you, and your nonsensical arguments, days ago, and make it a point not bothering to reply to anything you say. Yet today, the FIRST thing you did was respond to one of my posts, in a conversation that was about something you posted, but not directed to you. In that post, you accused me of using terms that I never used, and had the gall to chastise me for it.

I would be grateful if you would be done with me, as I was days ago done with you.

NOW we're done.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CybAnt1 wrote...
Bugger has a secret cloning program going on here. 

Eum no, they look very different. The subject wearing the PC's armor was physically very different than my PC. And the dwarf looks very different from Oghren.
I doubt it's cloning.

To be honest, I am not sure what those experimental subjects are for. Maybe they are Wardens? Maybe he was testing the joining on them. Maybe he was experimenting on the effects before using it on his people (kind of like we experiment on animals).
Why are they wearing our armor? Don't know. It likely seems to be a way for the game to make us get back our equipment in a cool way. 

I never claimed that the Architect is completely trustworthy. He made it perfectly clear that he would do whatever is necessary. However when faced with the last choice, I think my PC had much more important things in mind (the things we discussed in this thread) than this (which seems mostly trivial in the big picture). 
I contend that whatever the Architect's plan is, no matter how terrible it is, it will not be as terrible as what the 2 blights will inevitably be.  
That doesn't mean I wouldn't stop him if he turns out to be an immediate and un-ignorable threat in the future. But as the epilogue show, his main priority is to free his people from the song and stop the blights. And thanks to him, the deep roads are getting cleared. He doesn't seem to have anythign else in mind for the moment.

And I agree that Awakening created more questions that it answered. Irritating in a fascinating way.  

[sylvanaerie]

krylo wrote...

tmelange wrote...
I'll put my morals up against your  morals any day.

Going to be honest: Everything you have said, from LOL ridden posts, to, well, this, has reeked of both arrogance and ignorance.

Done with you.

You seem to completely lack critical thinking skills on any level, and believe that you can compensate for such weaknesses with  base insults and pure arrogance.  I'm no longer wasting my time.

Now to move on to intelligent detractors:

sylvanaerie wrote...
As to Tranquil not feeling pain/feelings or being just dolls, I think Owain might disagree with that (he doesn't feel like a non person).

But he also admits to not ever feeling fear, or any other kind of emotional Trauma.  His ideas of personhood differ greatly from my own.

At the end of the day, however, it doesn't matter what Owain thinks, because he lacks the very thing that makes humans human.  It's not intellect--for if it were we would have to subscribe to the idea that the mentally disadvantaged are not human.  No, it's the ability to feel.  To empathize.  To feel joy, love, and pain. 

Owain, and the rest of the Tranquil, feel none of that.  I agree with Jowan over Owain when it comes to the Tranquil.

But they DO feel pain.  Pain can be a physiological response

No physiological response compares to real pain.

Ever lost a loved one?

Ever had a broken bone?

Which would you rather happen again?

Of course the emotional pain is going to be more but thats not the only pain involved in the transformation.

I'd argue it's the only pain that matters however.  The transformation ends eventually, and for all the things wrong with Mother she didn't appear to be in constant pain.  The only lasting scars such a thing could then leave would be emotional scars.  However, the Tranquil would never suffer this.

They would go through a few days, maybe a week, of honest pain.  Everything else Hespith described was psychological, not physical.

Not to mention IF by then the darkspawn are sentient this person knows they are just going to be breeding and breeding and breeding more darkspawn to infest the world.

In a world in which they are intelligent and have agreed to such things as peace measures... is it really fair to use that kind of language?

They will know that by their actions they are saving hundreds of thousands of lives that fullscale war between the darkspawn and the surface races/dwarves would result in, as well.

Owain says he didn't want to die, he would prefer the tower go back to the way it was.  He went to the stock room because he felt more comfortable/safe there.

I always found this odd, to be honest.  It doesn't seem the action that a man would take given what we know of the Tranquil.  Apparently self preservation instinct still survives, however.

Though, apparently, in a rather weakened form.

Though, inconsistencies like this are part of the reason I would prefer to use the worst criminals I could find.  I suggest you look back to the discussion I had about justifying these actions, already.  Even if they were fully feeling and thinking people, I think it might be something I'd still feel compelled to pull the trigger on.

The options, are, after all as follows:

1) Full out war of genocide.  Who wins that altercation is anyone's guess, and has just a s good a chance to end with humans, elves, dwarves, and qunari enslaved to the darkspawn, kept alive in numbers only great enough to breed to create more broodmothers as it does with the extermination of the darkspawn. And, either way, such a campaign would result in fighting the darkspawn on their own territory.  A single ogre is described as being able to slaughter battalions of trained soldiers, on the surface.  What do you think the entire darkspawn horde would do to the armies of man in their own home?  There would be millions upon millions of casualties.

This may, however, have been worth it, even knowing the number of casualties, if not for the intelligent darkspawn.  Now that they are thinking feeling beings in their own right, this would be genocide.

2) What we have now.  Limited surface raids to claim broodmothers.  This would result in, most likely, more brood mothers than a trade treaty as the darkspawn would need to reproduce more often to keep their numbers up when they are fighting a constant guerilla war with every species on Thedas.  But, more than that, it means that the women taken will be uncontrolled.  

These will not be criminals.  These will not be volunteers.

These will be innocent villagers.  These will be 12 year old little girls, and 20 year old fresh brides.  These will be whomever the darkspawn can take and in numbers as large as the darkspawn can grab.  Age won't even be an issue.  A little girl could be kept alive for years, until she is old enough to breed.

3) You control who they get.  You send them women who have committed terrible crimes, and/or have become tranquil unable to feel the true extent of the terror inflicted on them.  You send them volunteers going into that dark night happily to keep others from experiencing said pain.


Given those options, I will gladly choose the third option.  First option is second choice.

Second option, however?

That's not an option at all.  No matter how you view the darkspawn, no matter what you think of them?  NOT making peace with them OR wiping them out is the most terrible thing you can do.  Even if you believe it too terrible to send women to become broodmothers--all you accomplish by not doing so is ensuring that it is innocents who are taken.

And what if there are no serial killers/blood mages to choose from?  Not every village in Thedas is going to have them, so do we use the lotttery system then?

I don't see this as ever being an issue.  One broodmother can produce how many darkspawn?  How quickly?  Honestly, one every couple of years would probably be enough to keep their numbers static once they quit warring with everyone 100% of the time.

They'd only need them as their old ones died off.  Just keep the particularly terrible people around in a tranquil state until they are needed. 

This presupposes of course they will even abide by a treaty with humanity. What if they decide they will just take what they want and hang treaty? What if NONE of them are the reasonable entity the ONE successful experiment of the Architect (The messenger) was.  There are too many what ifs in the equation. The Warden doesn't have enough information to go on.  There is too linear an answer here, its all or nothing.
In the end the darkspawn are my PC's enemy.  She is going to protect humanity as best she can.  Allying with them isn't an option.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what the PC does.  My epilogue slides didn't say humanity came to an end because I killed the Architect (just as it wouldn't for those who let him go).

It makes great debating on the forums though.  Gotta admit he has to be considered a success for Bioware or he wouldn't inspire all this discussion.

[sylvanaerie]

And I agree that Awakening created more questions that it answered. Irritating in a fascinating way.  [/quote]

Agreed.

[SnakeStrike8]

I spared the Architect, but only really because of long term reasons. Allow me to explain:

We know that there are only a finite number of slumbering Old Gods beneath Thedas. We also know that the majoirty of the darkspawn are engaged in digging for them so they can start a new Blight. Sooner or later, all the Old gods will have turned Archdemon, one by one, and the Grey Wardens will have slotted them all. What then? The darkspawn will have no Old Gods, and by inference no 'song' in their heads. What do you suppose will happen when the millions of darkspawn digging around will converge on Orzammar because they have nothing better to do? It'll fall in a matter of months, and then the darkspawn will wander onto the surface and thus will begin a never-ending Blight with billions of darkspawn spilling around everywhere. And the Wardens can't just one-shot the Archdemon and scatter the horde and save the world again (there won't be one). I dunno how many darkspawn are in the Deep Roads, but I'll bet you anything that the surface nations won't be able to survive a war of atrrition with them.

Letting the Architect continue its work, however, allows the darkspawn a chance at freedom from the call and lets them establish dialogue with the surface nations. It allows a chance at peace: everlasting peace between the darkspawn and the surfacers. Think of how many thaigs the dwarves can reclaim if they can just negotiate with the darkspawn.

Now of course, letting the Architect live doesn't GUARANTEE peace, but at least it allows the possibility of it. That's better than nothing, and more than the Wardens have had for a thousand+ years.

[CybAnt1]

Eum no, they look very different.

I'm not questioning that. I'm just going to ask you again: does or does not the experimental subject holding Velanna's stuff look like a ghoulish version of Velanna? I'm not saying the resemblance is perfect; it's clear he may be needing to do experiments to get what he's trying to do, right. 

Just why do you think that is - hm? And while I agree the guy with Oghren's stuff doesn't look exactly like Oghren, you're not the least bit curious that it also appears to be a ... dwarf? Hmmm?

[Volourn]

"This presupposes of course they will even abide by a treaty with humanity."



Why does it have to be all or nothing? Some darkspawn will abide by it, and some won't. Just like human nations. *shrug*



The whole point of the Awakening is giving them free will to choose - something they lacked til now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Eum no, they look very different.

I'm not questioning that. I'm just going to ask you again: does or does not the experimental subject holding Velanna's stuff look like a ghoulish version of Velanna? I'm not saying the resemblance is perfect; it's clear he may be needing to do experiments to get what he's trying to do, right. 

Just why do you think that is - hm? And while I agree the guy with Oghren's stuff doesn't look exactly like Oghren, you're not the least bit curious that it also appears to be a ... dwarf? Hmmm?

They look like ghouls, yes. They do not look like ghoulish versions of anyone however, except for the clothes they wear.

Furthermore remember that if Justice is with you, there's still an experimental subject wearing Justice's equipment. Seeing how Kristoff's body has decayed and his blood should be of little use, I fail to see how he could clone him (unless he knows about genetics, which I very much doubt).

And the fact they are of the same race can be for experimental reasons. I didn't see much that suggests that this dwarf is a clone of Oghren, except for the equipment.
What they can be is ghoul experiments and testing the reistance to the song. In other words, that joining of his.

Nothing in his notes points to another experiment he is trying. Freeing the darkspawn from the song is his main focus.