1316 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Volourn wrote...

"This presupposes of course they will even abide by a treaty with humanity."

Why does it have to be all or nothing? Some darkspawn will abide by it, and some won't. Just like human nations. *shrug*

The whole point of the Awakening is giving them free will to choose - something they lacked til now.

 

Why all or nothing? Because there is no option C.  Thats all Bioware gives you, ally with him or kill him.  There was no option like with Avernus to "go do what you have to but do it ethically".  If I had felt he would abide by that I would have probably let him go.  As it was I made a judgement call on what my PC would know about darkspawn.

[Volourn]

By that point, your PC should know that not all darkspawn are mindless, and they can be reasoned and bargained with.



There is an option C. Get TA's help with the Mother then go back to negoiating). The fact that the darkspawned have awakened changes the game and how we should interact with them.



Heck, a talking aware darkspawn can teach us much about the darkspawn. Murdering someone just because you distrust them is weak.

[Stoomkal]

Why does knightofphoenix think that ending the Calling will automatically lead to sapience in DS?

Am I missing something?

There was no mention of that in either "The Calling" or in any of the Architects notes... I think we are jumping a few links in the chain to suggest that the Awakening is based simply on not hearing the Call.

The Architect himself is a sapient creature that spontaneously appeared without it... he certainly wants to end the Call, but this is because that gives DS an *opportunity* to gain self awareness.

He then starts committing some serious eugenic experiments in order to promote evolution.

Besides... does it not seem like it is the DS that taint the Old Gods... and not the other way around. This is certainly implied in Origins, particularly by Morrigan.

We have no evidence of any kind to suggest how the Awakening occurrs... only the word of a mad scientist who has pretty much zero humanity... the kind of figure who would happily torture and commit vile experiments on women to embark upon a quest for genetic purity... does this remind anyone of a particular modern event?

I find the Architect and Avernus to be very much like the Nazri Scientists (board won't let me spell it).

They thought they were doing the right thing and promoting genetic purity, too. They didn't really care about the genocide of people who stood in their way.

yah... probably not siding with the New Messiah until his moral righteousness is established without doubt. Anything involving Broodmothers equals NO!

[sylvanaerie]

That wasn't an option, it was ally with him to kill the mother or kill him and then go deal with the mother by myself. There was no "we will talk about this afterward" option.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stoomkal wrote...
I find the Architect and Avernus to be very much like the Nazri Scientists (board won't let me spell it).

They thought they were doing the right thing and promoting genetic purity, too. They didn't really care about the genocide of people who stood in their way.

Don't go there. This is nothing similar.

Na.zi experiments had very little purpose and very little use. And were unnecessary, or at least the way they were done were unnecessary. Mengele killed thousands of twins just so he can study twin biology. Fascinating subject. Not worth the thousand he killed to do it. They injected chemicals into children's eyes just to see if eye color change. Very unnecessary. And they knew this. They just wanted to take advantage of the people they were going to kill anyhow, by experimenting useless things on them.

You think the Arhcitect is doing things like that? He is doing all this to free his people and not for his own scientific cuiosity. He isn't killing thousands of humans just to see what they are. He is epxerimenting on a few to save his people and stop the blights.

So please, don't go there and ruin the discussion. They have very little in common, except the act of experimenting itself. But there is no similarity in motives, in scale, in usefullness and in purpose.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stoomkal wrote...
Why does knightofphoenix think that ending the Calling will automatically lead to sapience in DS?

You can address me directly, I don't bite.

Because the calling is what chains them. All of their acts vis a vis the old Gods is dictated by the calling. If they are free from it, at the very least they will not be compelled to search for the old Gods. Once they are no logner controlled by impulse, they candevelop free will.

The whole point of the Architect's joining is gaining the WArden's reistsnace to the calling. And that's what leads to sentience. Once the darkspawn know silence, they can think. Just like when a ghoul or someone like Ruck listens to the song, they stop thinking.

It's a very strong possibility from the evidence we know at the very least. And it's a possibility that cannot be ignored.

[sylvanaerie]

Volourn wrote...

By that point, your PC should know that not all darkspawn are mindless, and they can be reasoned and bargained with.

There is an option C. Get TA's help with the Mother then go back to negoiating). The fact that the darkspawned have awakened changes the game and how we should interact with them.

Heck, a talking aware darkspawn can teach us much about the darkspawn. Murdering someone just because you distrust them is weak.

hmmm what I would know about the new darkspawn is they want to kill me (and my companions) just as much as the mindless ones.  (Withered, the First, Those disciples) none of them wanted to negotiate with me.  It was "Kill the others, capture the Warden" or "Welcome to the Fade Warden" or just trying to kill me no negotiation, just submit or die.  There was ONE mind you ONE darkspawn who seemed to be an okay guy (the messenger).  thats one in how many others? Can't negotiate with someone trying to kill you.

Architect gives you no choice, its kill him or ally with him and kill mother. There is no "negotiate after" option.  He doesn't say anything about teaching us about darkspawn.  He has his own motives for doing what he does and ****** should have known by now, attacking me, experimenting on me and setting his pet dragons on me is not going to win me over.  Obviously his people skills are sadly lacking.  As I said, he is polite but saying "I'm sorry" while doing awful things to me ANYway isn't gonna make me inclined to like him or even cooperate.  Okay as I killed him maybe my PC should have an option to say "I'm sorry I didn't want to be your enemy either but you left me no choice". 

[NugWrangler]

I had the thought that perhaps The Children are larval broodmothers. They are a new type of darkspawn and come from the Mother who's freedom from the song might have changed her biology. If the darkspawn could live without being parasitic to other sentient species, then it might be possible to justify helping the architect. Otherwise, it would be foolish to assume that they will just peacefully allow their species to die with the last broodmother.

[Stoomkal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...
Why does knightofphoenix think that ending the Calling will automatically lead to sapience in DS?

You can address me directly, I don't bite.

Because the calling is what chains them. All of their acts vis a vis the old Gods is dictated by the calling. If they are free from it, at the very least they will not be compelled to search for the old Gods. Once they are no logner controlled by impulse, they candevelop free will.

It's a very strong possibility from the evidence we know at the very least. And it's a possibility that cannot be ignored.

...

Ha! Sorry - not trying to talk *around* you...

But...

Where? Where is the evidence from what you say? Like... at all?

"Once they are no longer controlled by impulse they can develop free will" - how do you know? Where is it said?

How do you know that they are being controlled - it is an instinct of THEIR OWN...

It is THEY who infect the Old God... not the other way around...

The instinct to hear the Call is *not* coming from the Old Gods... it is the Darkspawn who corrupt them...

The Call is coming from the Black City... there is evidence for that, but not for what you say.

I just believe that the Taint is not from the Old Gods - remember there is a difference between the Old Gods and an Archdemon... an Old God was around for a thousand years at least in the Tevinter Imperium.

The Call is what leads Darkspawn to find and infect an Old God - who *then* controls them, but simply as a representation of a hive mind.

I just do not see any evidence in any text to suggest that they would be intelligent except for hearing the Call... they go centuries where there is no Call from an Archdemon...

Because in my mind, it flows from the Black City. The sentience question is just simply not answered, by the Architect, or you or me...

I will love it if they further develop this plot... though I doubt it. It seems DS are not long for this setting, now. They are being turned into "misunderstood noble savages" at a great rate.

So much for monolithic evil... maybe the Uruk-Hai can learn to braid Gandalfs hair... that would be... cool.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Why are you confusing the taint with the song? The taint comes from the darkspawn yes. The song comes from the old Gods however and that is fact in the game. The evidence is that the calling binds the darkspawn to the Archdemon's will (the source of the calling), hence a Blight happens. And hence why the Wardens can also listen to the archdemon anddream about it, because of the call. The darkspawn don't follow the archdemon because of the taint, but because of the song it produces. The song is at its strongest only when an archdemon appears (and that's not concidence). How do you htink the darkspawn find the old gods in the first place? Because they follow the song. That's also in the codexes.

And the Architect's notes and his own discoveries vis a vis the darkspawn are reliable imo. The Architect would know more about his own people than we do, so no reason to claim he is wrong and no basis for that, since he clearly is succesful in freeing some of his people. And if you do not see them as evidence and what I say as fact, then at the very least it's a strong possibility.

"they go centuries where there is no Call from an Archdemon..."

Wrong. The song is always present and it's from the old Gods. It reaches its highest point when the old gods become Archdemons, but the song is always there. Hence why the darkspawn can find the old Gods. And hence why the Wardens experience the Calling (vivid dreams about the old gods), even when there is no blight.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mars 2010 - 02:14 .

[atheelogos]

tmelange wrote...

Going to do one more playthrough and figured I'd ask for some feedback on the Architect storyline, since I can't seem to find a good reason in my own mind to spare him.

So just curious--who spared the Architect and why?

Personally, I didn't think it was a rational option under any circumstances for humanity to come to any sort of accord with the darkspawn or the Architect. It was clear to me that the Architect's interference led to the darkspawn not retreating upon the death of the old god, and resulted in continued human devastation, the deaths of thousands, and of dozens of wardens. It seemed clear to me that the darkspawn are very like vampires, parasitical and requiring humans for sustainence, breeding and acclimation, and as a result, an accord would be...untenable in fact. Thus, the argument that the darkspawn are somehow enslaved to the song of the old gods, and need to be freed (the slavery hook) so they can evolve, and the notion that the warden blood needed to free the darkspawn is analogous to the grey warden ritual wasn't compelling. 

I think the one thing they missed out on, however, was having the captured wardens being kept alive to provide this massive amount of blood they would need to convert darkspawn-dom. A dead warden supplies only a finite amount of blood. It would have been interesting to effect this rescue, and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

Anyway, what were you thinking when you spared the Architect?

I agree with you. the Architect needs to be destroyed. He is too dangerous to be left alive. Even if he wanted to help the humans and the darkspawn it still wouldn't work.

For example how much warden blood blood would he need to change hundreds of thousands of darkspawn? It doesn't matter because there wouldn't be enough wardens to provide it. And theres another problem. Drinking the taint doesn't work for all people. Many die. The Architect came up with something that is like the joining only in reverse. But the same pros/cons should apply right. Why should we expect this reverse joining to work on all of them? We shouldn't. There is no logical reason to assume that it would on every darkspawn 100% of time.

Here's another little problem. Lets say all the darkspawn were able to somehow get enough warden blood and they all listened to the Archtitect and there was peace. It would only last for a few decades if that. If there was complete peace then you wouldn't need wardens anymore. If you don't have warden blood than you can't convert the darkspawn. So in time they warring with us again.

Another problem is that the taint on averge can only sustain a warden for about 30 years. So who's to say the Architects reverse joining is permanent or would last longer than 30 years?

Another problem is this. Once they are free from the calling whats to keep them from attacking us again? Only this time they would be more intelligent more deadly.

And one of the biggest problems is these abominations are thieving parasites. They need our women to procreate. They steal people, force feed them and violate their bodies. Even if they were free from the calling they would want to continue living yes? Which would mean they would need more of our women to do so. And that ladies and gentlemen is unacceptable. 

There are to many ways for this to go south if he is left alive. In the case of the darkspawn genocide can indeed be justified. For us and the dwarves to live in peace the darkspawn need to be wiped off the face of the planet.

[Darkannex]

Without derailing too much, I might want to interject that the study of Eugenics AT THAT TIME, was considered scientific. Much like the timeframe where one could study the shape of your head to determine your fate and intelligence (phrenology?), much like IQ tests today.



Science is a revolving door. And while noone in their right mind would question the depravity of WW2 Germany, there WAS much of scientific value that came from those studies.



In a way, I feel his comparison is apt. At least the general idea of it. Was the Architect a depraved person that wanted to genocide an entire race? You can argue yes - at least from the Calling. He wanted to wipe out almost all of Thedas by forcing all living things to undertake a magically induced Joining. This would have led to the mass killing of many.



Great pains are made to show that the Architect lacks a basic moral compass. He is quite the ends justify the means type. So long as your ends and his are alike, he will deal with you. But once those ends change or diverge, I do not think he will sit down over a cup of tea and discuss it with you. That last part is my opinion of course.



Let me reiterate - I am NOT condoning WW2 Germany in any way, shape, or form. But I think the immediate dismissal (or the immediate linking) is too hasty. There will not be a perfect comparison made.



May I also say that sometimes a cure works-even without fully understanding the disease. In this case, I believe that Polaris may have a point that while it is HEAVILY inferred that the Old God's song is linked to the sentience of the DS, there is no direct evidence that the Song is the cause of the lack thereof. Therefore, removing the song alone MAY NOT awaken the DS to sentience...and even if it does-there is no way that it will waken most of them to morality. Our of all the sentient DS we run into, there is only one that shows any compassion, or a semblence thereof.

[Stoomkal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why are you confusing the taint with the song? The taint comes from the darkspawn yes. The song comes from the old Gods however and that is fact in the game. The evidence is that the calling binds the darkspawn to the Archdemon's will (the source of the calling), hence a Blight happens. And hence why the Wardens can also listen to the archdemon anddream about it, because of the call. The darkspawn don't follow the archdemon because of the taint, but because of the song it produces. The song is at its strongest only when an archdemon appears (and that's not concidence). How do you htink the darkspawn find the old gods in the first place? Because they follow the song. That's also in the codexes.

And the Architect's notes and his own discoveries vis a vis the darkspawn are reliable imo. The Architect would know more about his own people than we do, so no reason to claim he is wrong and no basis for that, since he clearly is succesful in freeing some of his people. And if you do not see them as evidence and what I say as fact, then at the very least it's a strong possibility.

"they go centuries where there is no Call from an Archdemon..."

Wrong. The song is always present and it's from the old Gods. It reaches its highest point when the old gods become Archdemons, but the song is always there. Hence why the darkspawn can find the old Gods. And hence why the Wardens experience the Calling (vivid dreams about the old gods), even when there is no blight.

...

Well... there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary. Morrigan, for one. The Call is certainly directing them *to* the Old Gods... which are not archdemons until they are tainted. You do not even see them until the DS reach them, and they transform.

There is evidence to suggest that the Old Gods are just as helpless as anyone else in this situation... I do not think Urthemiel (the God of BEAUTY) was always an evil creature twisted with anger... do you?

The Call began in the Black City... it was a curse *put on* the Old Gods by the Maker - who also imprisoned them. The Darkspawn bring the taint to them and make them bad - not the other way around.

Now... either of us could be right... it is not explained in *definitive* detail. I agree what you say is very, very possible and should *never* be discounted.

I think it is a great moral decision... but...

Do you really want the monolithic evil of the DA setting to suddenly become downtrodden Drow Elves with skin problems...

I *would* rather slaughter them all before Ed Greenwoord infects Thedas with bad fantasy cliches...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darkannex wrote...
May I also say that sometimes a cure works-even without fully understanding the disease. In this case, I believe that Polaris may have a point that while it is HEAVILY inferred that the Old God's song is linked to the sentience of the DS, there is no direct evidence that the Song is the cause of the lack thereof. Therefore, removing the song alone MAY NOT awaken the DS to sentience...and even if it does-there is no way that it will waken most of them to morality. Our of all the sentient DS we run into, there is only one that shows any compassion, or a semblence thereof.

The probability of that happening are very low based on the data we have. There is little reason to doubt the Architect's understanding of the subject, at the very least his understanding of the cuase, effect and how to create sentience.

So even if I concede that it's not an established fact. It's still a very strong possibility, based on heavy hints from the game, as you said.

And yes preicely. If the DS awaken suddenly after the deaths of the old Gods, it will be very difficult to guide them. Hence why I think they need the Architect. For one, he can potentially avoid the blights. Second, he can guide his people so they don't become lost.

And remember that the Messenger has no reason to help humans. He knows that if humans knew what he was, they would kill him. Why does he want to help them? That's a strong case of compassion and sympathy to a race that would probably kill him on sight.

As for WW2 experiments. They weren't experimenting for the sake of freeing their people from slavery, or to avoid blights that can annihilate all life. In absolute, the discoveries they came up with are of scientific worth. But when compared to the means and the people who had to die for that discovery to happen makes it unjustifiable and not worth the cost at all. That's not what the Architect is doing.

And with that, I am off to bed. Cheers

[tmelange]

atheelogos wrote...

tmelange wrote...

Going to do one more playthrough and figured I'd ask for some feedback on the Architect storyline, since I can't seem to find a good reason in my own mind to spare him.

So just curious--who spared the Architect and why?

Personally, I didn't think it was a rational option under any circumstances for humanity to come to any sort of accord with the darkspawn or the Architect. It was clear to me that the Architect's interference led to the darkspawn not retreating upon the death of the old god, and resulted in continued human devastation, the deaths of thousands, and of dozens of wardens. It seemed clear to me that the darkspawn are very like vampires, parasitical and requiring humans for sustainence, breeding and acclimation, and as a result, an accord would be...untenable in fact. Thus, the argument that the darkspawn are somehow enslaved to the song of the old gods, and need to be freed (the slavery hook) so they can evolve, and the notion that the warden blood needed to free the darkspawn is analogous to the grey warden ritual wasn't compelling. 

I think the one thing they missed out on, however, was having the captured wardens being kept alive to provide this massive amount of blood they would need to convert darkspawn-dom. A dead warden supplies only a finite amount of blood. It would have been interesting to effect this rescue, and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

Anyway, what were you thinking when you spared the Architect?

I agree with you. the Architect needs to be destroyed. He is too dangerous to be left alive. Even if he wanted to help the humans and the darkspawn it still wouldn't work.

For example how much warden blood blood would he need to change hundreds of thousands of darkspawn? It doesn't matter because there wouldn't be enough wardens to provide it. And theres another problem. Drinking the taint doesn't work for all people. Many die. The Architect came up with something that is like the joining only in reverse. But the same pros/cons should apply right. Why should we expect this reverse joining to work on all of them? We shouldn't. There is no logical reason to assume that it would on every darkspawn 100% of time.

Here's another little problem. Lets say all the darkspawn were able to somehow get enough warden blood and they all listened to the Archtitect and there was peace. It would only last for a few decades if that. If there was complete peace then you wouldn't need wardens anymore. If you don't have warden blood than you can't convert the darkspawn. So in time they warring with us again.

Another problem is that the taint on averge can only sustain a warden for about 30 years. So who's to say the Architects reverse joining is permanent or would last longer than 30 years?

Another problem is this. Once they are free from the calling whats to keep them from attacking us again? Only this time they would be more intelligent more deadly.

And one of the biggest problems is these abominations are thieving parasites. They need our women to procreate. They steal people, force feed them and violate their bodies. Even if they were free from the calling they would want to continue living yes? Which would mean they would need more of our women to do so. And that ladies and gentlemen is unacceptable. 

There are to many ways for this to go south if he is left alive. In the case of the darkspawn genocide can indeed be justified. For us and the dwarves to live in peace the darkspawn need to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Dearest one, for 30 pages I have said the same things. There are vocal advocates on both sides of the issue, and the arguments can be compelling depending upon what any particular person is disposed to do. Me, I don't think darkspawn have proven they deserve my consideration over the interests of humanoid species. I believe there are absolute bars to coexistence with the darkspawn and that it hasn't been proven that they are *supposed* to be intelligent and independent of the song. I think it's just as likely that the song controls their bestial nature, which is why they are driven to corrupt it. I think it's much more likely that intelligent darkspawn equal unending strife against a foe that outnumbers us severely and preys upon us.

I don't believe in breeding extinct dinosaurs and hoping that they stay contained on the island. No species can survive without an awareness of its position in the natural order.

And beside the meta questions, I don't think the Architect as an individual deserves to live. I think he's the typical mad scientist, struggling amorally to justify his theories and to hell with the cost to individuals and to anyone not of his sphere of interest. His weak intimations of a greater good are severely undermined in my mind by his outrageous failures that have exacted a huge cost already.  I think he deserves to die just for slaughtering my brothers-in-arms so ignobly.

The one thing you said that I don't remember coming up so far is the fact that the warden's resistance is finite, therefore, the resistance conferred by the reverse joining might also be finite, and the intelligent darkspawn might simply revert back, making all the sacrifices some are willing to make for the promotion of the darkspawn meaningless.

Modifié par tmelange, 26 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stoomkal wrote...


There is evidence to suggest that the Old Gods are just as helpless as anyone else in this situation... I do not think Urthemiel (the God of BEAUTY) was always an evil creature twisted with anger... do you?

I never said they were evil. I think they unwillingly spread their song, which attracts the darkspawn and all those tainted to them, whether they like it or not. Until they are corrupted and become archdemons.

But that's not the point. The point is that it's heavily hinted that the source of the song is the old gods. And we haven't seen Morrigan;'s child in action. Perhaps it will produce its own song, perhaps it needs a dragon form to do so, we don't know. So that can't be used evidence.

So if the darkspawn no longer hear the song, they are no longer dominated by the impulse to search for the old Gods. And according to the Architect;s research and from what I have seen in the game, that means sentience.
 
And now I am really tired. So zzzzzzzzz
Cheers

[Stoomkal]

The test of a good point is whether or not it makes people question their own, knightofphoenix...



... Damn You!!!



... Sleep Well... my head hurts!

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...


There is evidence to suggest that the Old Gods are just as helpless as anyone else in this situation... I do not think Urthemiel (the God of BEAUTY) was always an evil creature twisted with anger... do you?

I never said they were evil. I think they unwillingly spread their song, which attracts the darkspawn and all those tainted to them, whether they like it or not. Until they are corrupted and become archdemons.

But that's not the point. The point is that it's heavily hinted that the source of the song is the old gods. And we haven't seen Morrigan;'s child in action. Perhaps it will produce its own song, perhaps it needs a dragon form to do so, we don't know. So that can't be used evidence.

So if the darkspawn no longer hear the song, they are no longer dominated by the impulse to search for the old Gods. And according to the Architect;s research and from what I have seen in the game, that means sentience.
 
And now I am really tired. So zzzzzzzzz
Cheers

Sweet dreams KnightofPhoenix.  As always nice chatting with you!

[ChaoticBroth]

Lets see, at the end of the game, I found myself presented with two choices.



a) Fight The Mother, someone who's sent two armies out to kill you already, with the help of a sentient darkspawn (who's a capable mage, too) who wishes to end the Blight, which is my PC's goal.

or

Fight The Mother, and kill off the only sentient darkspawn that's looking into ending the Blight (that we know of).



Now, there's a bunch of reasons I'd not kill the Architect.

a) He has Cataclysm. I like that spell; I'd rather have that on my side, thank you very much.

He's really the only hope for the darkspawn. His experiments may be flawed, and produce bad results (ex. The Mother), but at least he's doing something. Granted, he was behind the Blight, but it was all in an attempt to unravel the curse from the source.

c) 2 enemies > 1 enemy. Simple as that.



Now, going from argument b. He took a risk. It started a Blight (which was really not stopped earlier because of Loghain's whole civil war deal) that didn't last very long. Oh no. Big deal. And plus, if he can civilize the darkspawn, then we don't have to deal with them. It's all good.

[IanPolaris]

Fight The Mother, and kill off the only sentient darkspawn that's looking into ending the Blight (that we know of).

The problem is the Architect is looking to replace the blight with something WORSE. An entire race of cunning and intelligent creatures who view all of humanity as Prey.  At least with the blights you know there are only two more (and there is NO evidence that once the old gods are gone that the Darkspawn will spontaneously awaken).

He's really the only hope for the darkspawn. His experiments may be flawed, and produce bad results (ex. The Mother), but at least he's doing something. Granted, he was behind the Blight, but it was all in an attempt to unravel the curse from the source.

This is precisely why you should.  What is good for the Darkspawn is automatically bad for humanity simply because on the most basic ecological level, Darkspawn can not peacefully coexist with humanity (unless humanity is reduced to cattle status for Darkspawn overlords).

Now, going from argument b. He took a risk. It started a Blight (which was really not stopped earlier because of Loghain's whole civil war deal) that didn't last very long. Oh no. Big deal. And plus, if he can civilize the darkspawn, then we don't have to deal with them. It's all good.

On the contrary, if he does civilize Darkspawn, you now have an entire race of beings who's entire relationship to humanity can be described in one word:  PREY.  You don't give a race that needs to eat you and enslave your females any sort of advantage.  You kill them.  All of them if you possibly can.

-Polaris

[Alphram]

I look at it from a more pragmatic level.

1 - Do I believe/trust him?  My character only meets him twice:  When he's captured and right before the Mother.  The capture part doesn't make my character feel warm and fuzzy toward him, but doesn't automatically turn me against him (Zev and Loghain became allies after all).  The problem I have is that my dialogues with him are rather brief. It would take one GIGANTIC leap of faith to take everything he says at face value.  This world is rife with double dealings, and I should just take him at his word?  Sure he's fighting the Mother, but that could be because she poses a direct threat to him/his power for all I know.  The game just doesn't give enough interaction with him to really sway my character.

2 - Do I need him?  Not only have I already killed multiple broodmothers at this point, I've killed an archdemon, so why would I need help with yet another broodmother, even if it is sentient?  I take it she's nasty, but nothing up to that point makes me think she's harder to kill than any other.

In the end, I just don't think the game does enough to either impress upon you that you really need him to defeat her, or that he means what he says.

I must say they do create some interesting characters though.  As the saying goes, a villain is the hero of his own story.  It was certainly true for Loghain, same can also be said for The Architect, if you see him as a villain.

[IanPolaris]

Alphram,



In addition consider this. The Architect claims that the attack on Vigil's keep was a misunderstanding and that he didn't realize that the Wardens would take it as an attack.



Say WHAT?!?



Lest anyone forget, the Darkspawn under the Withered (on the Architect's direct orders) AMUSHED Vigil keep with a sneak attack designed to cause as much damage and take as many GW prisoner's as possible. The Architect may be inhuman, but ANY self-aware creature (including Darkspawn) will always take an attack to mean that you have hostile intentions.



That means the Architect had to have known that this would be considered an attack, and that means he is lying to your face when he says he doesn't.



-Polaris

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

@krylo, you might be shy of female serial killers even in our day, with a much higher population.

So what is your plan B, failing a couple of female Fereldan Ted Bundy's being turned over to the darkspawn? I'm sure the Chantry would offer up some other possibilities. Blood mages, etc. Kill a few birds with one broodmothering stone.

Blood mages was the original plan.

Seeming as they're to be executed or made tranquil anyway.

And really, what's terrible about the rape etc. isn't the physical pain.  It's the emotional trauma.

Tranquils aren't like us.  They're just dolls.  They have nothing left of what makes them human, and it would be impossible for them to be hurt, beyond a few scrapes and bruises, by what the darkspawn do.

Being punched in the face isn't pain.  Being cut is't pain.  Being electrocuted isn't pain.  It's all just purely physical.  It can be ignored, moved past, and endured.  I've been through my share of physical pain, and you know what?

Physical pain doesn't hurt.

Emotional trauma does.

The tranquil have no feelings and thus could feel no trauma.  There'd be no fear.  No horror.  No sense of being violated.  It would just be the motions.

The tranquil are already dead.

Which--by the by--is why I hate the chantry for even doing it to any mage who is 'too weak'.  It's murder, but without the body and a prettied up name.

I really find it very difficult to believe that there's not a sociopath behind these words.  Sorry, I know that is terribly offensive, but I cannot believe you can actually type this out.  I keep getting the image of a parapalegic or a coma victim and you saying the same things about them, so why not horribly violate them and turn them into breeding grounds for intelligent cockroaches.  Just because a human being can't feel- let's correct that, can't feel as you do- then you may do with them as you please?!  You say you hate the Chantry, but you would greatly compound their evil and call it a good thing?

Sheesh.  This discussion is disturbing.

[Godak]

Addai67 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

@krylo, you might be shy of female serial killers even in our day, with a much higher population.

So what is your plan B, failing a couple of female Fereldan Ted Bundy's being turned over to the darkspawn? I'm sure the Chantry would offer up some other possibilities. Blood mages, etc. Kill a few birds with one broodmothering stone.

Blood mages was the original plan.

Seeming as they're to be executed or made tranquil anyway.

And really, what's terrible about the rape etc. isn't the physical pain.  It's the emotional trauma.

Tranquils aren't like us.  They're just dolls.  They have nothing left of what makes them human, and it would be impossible for them to be hurt, beyond a few scrapes and bruises, by what the darkspawn do.

Being punched in the face isn't pain.  Being cut is't pain.  Being electrocuted isn't pain.  It's all just purely physical.  It can be ignored, moved past, and endured.  I've been through my share of physical pain, and you know what?

Physical pain doesn't hurt.

Emotional trauma does.

The tranquil have no feelings and thus could feel no trauma.  There'd be no fear.  No horror.  No sense of being violated.  It would just be the motions.

The tranquil are already dead.

Which--by the by--is why I hate the chantry for even doing it to any mage who is 'too weak'.  It's murder, but without the body and a prettied up name.

I really find it very difficult to believe that there's not a sociopath behind these words.  Sorry, I know that is terribly offensive, but I cannot believe you can actually type this out.  I keep getting the image of a parapalegic or a coma victim and you saying the same things about them, so why not horribly violate them and turn them into breeding grounds for intelligent cockroaches.  Just because a human being can't feel- let's correct that, can't feel as you do- then you may do with them as you please?!  You say you hate the Chantry, but you would greatly compound their evil and call it a good thing?

Sheesh.  This discussion is disturbing.

Not to mention the fact that god disagrees with him.

[Sarah1281]

Lest anyone forget, the Darkspawn under the Withered (on the Architect's direct orders) AMUSHED Vigil keep with a sneak attack designed to cause as much damage and take as many GW prisoner's as possible. The Architect may be inhuman, but ANY self-aware creature (including Darkspawn) will always take an attack to mean that you have hostile intentions.

To be fair, we don't know that that's how the Architect intended for the Withered to handle the situation, although in that case he may not be lying to you but he doesn't have sufficient control over his followers for his plan to be even remotely safe.