1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

I don't think the surface immediately ignores them after a Blight, but they had a full four centuries of no visible darkspawn activity and very little contact with the dwarves who knew otherwse. Griffons might still be around and terrorizing the qunari but since contact with them is limited and we haven't seen them in centuries, we can reasonably assume they are extinct, whether we're right or not.

[Default137]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Arguable, The only reason the surface got caught in the Civil War in Awakening was because the Architect sent his darkspawn to Vigil's Keep and that made the mother realize what he was after.

I would also like to argue that it WOULD be better for the surface if the Darkspawn would attack constantly rather then just one big war once in a few centuries. Perhaps the humans would finally realize that they are a constant threat they can't just ignore as they currently do until a Blight happens.

Even Human and Elven Grey Wardens don't care all that much with dealing with the Darkspawn as a whole, yet they MUST be dealt with. You CANNOT ignore them as they pose a real long term threat.

Also, you could argue that the Architect could form a faction that may not actually attack us.

Look at what happened in Awakening, he sent the Withered as a messanger, he was attacked, so they fought back, and just so happened to win. He sent that other messanger near the end to help our Warden as well, neither was actually a planned attack, he just is unable to understand that seeing a Darkspawn means aggression, and people are not willing to talk to them, or give them a chance yet.

I honestly don't get the feeling the Architect really wants to rule the world, or conquer anything, I think he is perfectly happy to just stay in the Deep Roads, and judging by the way his disciples act, I think many of them want that as well, especially if you pay attention to the epilogue, where lo and behold, after you give him the blood he wants, they calm down, and the Deep Roads become much safer.

So, how is giving the Darkspawn a chance to be their own race, one which can just stop attacking everyone and just live in the abandoned thaigs a bad thing? I mean, heck, they might even come and back us up in the next game if we did help him.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't think the surface immediately ignores them after a Blight, but they had a full four centuries of no visible darkspawn activity and very little contact with the dwarves who knew otherwse

People were shocked to discover the darkspawn did not go back in Deep Roads after the Blight, so yes they do ignore them. They think of them as a bad nightmare they just want to get rid of quickly but don't realize they are PERMANENT threat that has not been dealt with.

Also, you could argue that the Architect could form a faction that may not actually attack us.

Exactly. It's a win-win situation from my view. He either takes control of the Darkspawn and leaves the surface be, or wages constant war on the surface which wakes up the ignorant fools living there.

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't think the surface immediately ignores them after a Blight, but they had a full four centuries of no visible darkspawn activity and very little contact with the dwarves who knew otherwse

People were shocked to discover the darkspawn did not go back in Deep Roads after the Blight, so yes they do ignore them. They think of them as a bad nightmare they just want to get rid of quickly but don't realize they are PERMANENT threat that has not been dealt with.

Also, you could argue that the Architect could form a faction that may not actually attack us.

Exactly. It's a win-win situation from my view. He either takes control of the Darkspawn and leaves the surface be, or wages constant war on the surface which wakes up the ignorant fools living there.

They CAN'T leave the surface be.  They HAVE to have Broodmothers to reproduce.  When their survival imperative takes away from other species they cease to be "sentient seperate species" and become parasites in my eyes.  They will continue to raid and take what they need because their survival demands it. Hespith even says it in Origins they hate us because they need us.  if you ask what they are doing she says "they are doing what they must do, what they (what Branka turned over the women in her house) are allowed to do"  As far as I am concerned I am not going to ALLOW them to do it.  I will defend humanity with my last breath against them.

[Costin_Razvan]

As far as I am concerned I am not going to ALLOW them to do it. I will defend humanity with my last breath against them.

How does killing the Architect stop the Darkspawn from stealing women from the surface? it doesn't. At the very least he might stop doing it, and I am 100% certain there are other ways for darkspawn to reproduce. ( I don't buy the whole Chantry crap )

If you really want to stop the Darkspawn then you are going to need help. as in help from EVERY NATION in Theadas, even your army at the end of Origins wouldn't be able to stop them. and you sure as hell aren't going to do it alone or even as Commander of the Grey. Take for example a dwarf origin ending. Even with the Full power of Golems, Humans and Dwarves they barely retake a single city which is relativly near Orzammar. As Oghren puts it "Ortan Thaig was almost part of Orzammar once"

How the hell do you think you can conquer the Deep Rods and kill the darkspawn once and for all without a massive effort from every nation and race in the known world?

The Surfacers need to realize the true threat of the Darkspawn, which they DO NOT. The only way they will if is the Darkspawn prove to be a constant and powerful menace. not just a random war occurring every few centuries and then very minor raids now and then.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 mars 2010 - 09:39 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

At the very least he might stop doing it, and I am 100% certain there are other ways for darkspawn to reproduce. ( I don't buy the whole Chantry crap )

100% certain?  Not 95%?  Considering there is absolutely no evidence in-game or in the novels that this is true, I would think you would at least go 99.

[Costin_Razvan]

How did the first darkspawn appear? Thin air or something? The chantry's version is just anti-mage propaganda.

[Addai]

What does the Chantry have to do with anything? We see in the game how the darkspawn reproduce.

[Sarah1281]

At the very least he might stop doing it, and I am 100% certain there are other ways for darkspawn to reproduce. ( I don't buy the whole Chantry crap )

If there are other ways for the darkspawn to reproduce, why don't they? Why take dwarven or surface women and turn them into broodmothers? That would just be unnecessarily provoking them when they had no need for interaction at all with other races. Besides, turning women into Broodmothers is kind of involved and involves plenty of dead tainted men to eat so if the darkspawn knew of any other way, they would use it and the Architect would at least mention it to help strengthen his cause because without that issue, darkspawn and other races could concievably coexist.

[Costin_Razvan]

And as I have suggested they might have another way to reproduce. It is logical to assume they do considering they couldn't have just appeared out of thin air.

Then again there are many plot holes left in the game. Who knows what might we find out?

Besides, turning women into Broodmothers is kind of involved and
involves plenty of dead tainted men to eat so if the darkspawn knew of
any other way, they would use it

The Darkspawn are mindless save for Architect and company.

the Architect would at least mention it to help strengthen his cause
because without that issue, darkspawn and other races could concievably
coexist.

Game issue, you never get to ask and well from his view if he can't persuade you to side with him to stop the Blights and the Mother then well you already have made up your mind.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 mars 2010 - 09:48 .

[Darkannex]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

He has changed his views since the Calling however. Realizing that with Grey Warden blood the Darkspawn no longer hear the Old God's Calling.

That is opinion. He has changed his methods-but due to the game constraints - the question of his actual views is very much unclear. 

[Sarah1281]

They don't have to appear out of thin air. The Chantry's explanation that entering whatever the black city is spread the taint to people and that turned them into darkspawn or broodmothers makes sense, you just have to take all of the highly biased 'the Maker is punishing us' and 'this is mankind's sin' out of it.

Also, whether or not they can reproduce without Broodmothers - which is doubtful - that still doesn't answer your question of where they came from. Where the first one came from, who knows. Once one existed, they could taint other races and start producing Broodmoters, althouth I'm kind of curious how they knew to do that. Surely it can't be instinct since it's kind of a complicated process.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 mars 2010 - 09:52 .

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And as I have suggested they might have another way to reproduce. It is logical to assume they do considering they couldn't have just appeared out of thin air.

Then again there are many plot holes left in the game. Who knows what might we find out?

No it isn't logical as it is shown IN game how its done.  I don't know how darkspawn #1 came about.  I don't care.  I know what they do NOW to reproduce and thats prey on humanity.

[Darkannex]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And as I have suggested they might have another way to reproduce. It is logical to assume they do considering they couldn't have just appeared out of thin air.

Then again there are many plot holes left in the game. Who knows what might we find out?

This is conjecture. We have no way of knowing there is 'another way'. Where did the first aids virus come from? Did it just appear out of thin air? Even discounting the Chantry version, there could be many reasons...not all of them able to be reproduced. 

[Vicious]

This is conjecture.

That's all this whole thread is.

[Costin_Razvan]

Fair enough, but still what is the point of arguing over broodmothers. The point is to stop the Darkspawn or the Blight. Allying the Architect at least gives you a chance you might stop the Blights while killing doesn't do ****.

[Darkannex]

More or less-but his is without any in game or game source backing.

[Sarah1281]

The point is to stop the Darkspawn or the Blight.

No, I think the point is whether intelligent darkspawn will prove to be more of a threat than a Blight and whether 'awakening' is inevitable upon the last Old God dying.

[Costin_Razvan]

Intelligence also means discord, if history and Awakening itself has shown us anything. The only way the darkspawn will ever be that united is during a Blight under an Archdemon. Do you really think it is easy to keep together a large army made up of individuals? It isn't.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 mars 2010 - 09:58 .

[tmelange]

The Other One wrote...

Same here. I usually "take the high road" and try to be good to everyone (unless I'm going after a specific achievement).

But in my latest playthough (this morning), Sigrun wouldn't accept my decision and attacked us. I'm quite fond of Sigrun, and I'm very unhappy about how this turned out, so I'm going to replay from an earlier save so we can all live happily ever after. Sorry about that Mr. Architect.

I usually take the high road in RPGs too; I'm most comfortable with the paragon path. Ordinarily, when faced with a decision to spare someone, I'd spare them -- just because. But I had an immediate, visceral reaction to sparing the Architect, that put him in line with the decisions I made to kill the desire demon that was inhabiting Connor, to kill that guy who was in charge of the dragon cult, to kill that demon that was inside the cat in Shale's village, and to kill that demon that was inhabiting the warden in the Keep DLC -- all of those intelligent demons seemed reasonable and their continued existence harmless in the immediate future, but the nature of what they wanted had a cost that was measured in the suffering of others.

I guess I consider the darkspawn more comparable to demons than I consider them comparable to people in the final analysis. Perhaps they belong somewhere, but they don't belong HERE, with us. The intelligence issue isn't the problem per se. The problem that I have with darkspawn, and with the argument to spare the Architect, is that because of their parasitic nature, their promotion (or freedom, if you like) must come at the expense of someone else's interest. There is a lot of conjecture on what the darkspawn should be and what rights they should be afforded so they can prosper, but where is the plan to protect the interests of the free species of the world from unreasonable darkspawn encroachment?

The notion of fighting to protect your way of life does mean something. Peace isn't the only important thing in the world. 

[tmelange]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Also, whether or not they can reproduce without Broodmothers - which is doubtful - that still doesn't answer your question of where they came from. Where the first one came from, who knows. Once one existed, they could taint other races and start producing Broodmoters, althouth I'm kind of curious how they knew to do that. Surely it can't be instinct since it's kind of a complicated process.

People keep saying that the darkspawn are "mindless" until awakened. I don't see that at all. They are crafty and cunning and are quite intelligent, in the way of animals, on an ordinary basis, as far as I can tell. They use weapons, and learn magical spells, and wear armor, and attack in groups, and use formation, and set up totems and pyres, and even take over thaigs in between blights.

They don't ever seem mindless. Zombies are mindless.

What the warden blood does, in my estimation, is enable them to access high level brain functioning, so they can talk and reason, and are not subject to base instinct.

Modifié par tmelange, 27 mars 2010 - 10:28 .

[Sarah1281]

They don't have to be mindless in order to not have it occur to them that the way to continue their species is kidnapping women, forcing them to eat tainted flesh, and then raping them to turn them into broodmothers. I don't think something that complex can be instinct but I'm confused about how they first realized that's what they had to do to continue their species. Say Gray Wardens could reproduce by drinking the blood of other Wardens. Would it necessarily occur to them to try this? The darkspawn must have gotten the idea somewhere.

[darkshadow136]

Addai67 wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...

I spared him he was born different then the other Darkspawn a mutant if you want to use the reference. He was an outcast of his own kind, and wanted co-existance, peace for his people, and freedom from the old gods. He just lacked the knowledge and people skills with other races in the beginning to show his peaceful motivations.

Where does it show he wants to co-exist?  He wants you as experimentation subjects and to help him defeat the Mother, sure...

Right before you destroy the Mother. He explains how he wants to end the Blights, and co-exist in peace. How what happened at vigil with the Wardens was an accident. He sent some of his people to talk to the wardens to get help not war, and out of natural habit the wardens attacked. Also he explained that unlike the wardens he was coming to ask for the Wardens help by us donating some of our blood so he could free his fellow Darkspawn from the old Gods.

[tmelange]

Sarah1281 wrote...

They don't have to be mindless in order to not have it occur to them that the way to continue their species is kidnapping women, forcing them to eat tainted flesh, and then raping them to turn them into broodmothers. I don't think something that complex can be instinct but I'm confused about how they first realized that's what they had to do to continue their species. Say Gray Wardens could reproduce by drinking the blood of other Wardens. Would it necessarily occur to them to try this? The darkspawn must have gotten the idea somewhere.

Well, this could go to the theory that darkspawn aren't really a separate "species" at all. They could be infected humanoids, and humanoid-hybrids, and if that is the case, the very first generation might have devolved, being infected and slowly losing their ability to talk and reason. They could have started capturing women for all the usual reasons, and realized the whole reproductive thing while they were still close in nature to what they were, and as they got more and more bestial, that knowledge turned to instinct.

Or, they can simply just not be as stupid as we are assuming. Just because they can't talk doesn't mean that they don't have intelligence and can't communicate in the way of a hive. I'm not sure how smart you would have to be to figure out something like that. 

[tmelange]

Sarah1281 wrote...

They don't have to be mindless in order to not have it occur to them that the way to continue their species is kidnapping women, forcing them to eat tainted flesh, and then raping them to turn them into broodmothers. I don't think something that complex can be instinct but I'm confused about how they first realized that's what they had to do to continue their species. Say Gray Wardens could reproduce by drinking the blood of other Wardens. Would it necessarily occur to them to try this? The darkspawn must have gotten the idea somewhere.

Upon reflection, I'm thinking that it may not be such a stretch for them to figure the broodmother thing out. if you capture a woman to rape (assuming they do have some sort of sexual need), and keep her restricted with no food or water, and she's starving to death, could it naturally coincide that she eats something at hand like infected flesh (her decision) while the action of the rape is a separate decision that merely intersects in time? Once it happened the first time, would an animal of regular intelligence be smart enough to replicate the situation? Interesting.