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To those who spared the Architect...


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#926
Thor Rand Al

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sylvanaerie wrote...

Oh goodie so while they have their civil wars we get caught in the middle (which is precisely the events of Awakening) The Hero of Ferelden isn't going to live forever. What are they going to do with the mess when the PC is dead and can no longer protect them?




Exactly!





Also the Architect isn't going to live forever either.  What will happen if say he can get them all under 1 banner, (very, very, very unlikely) he dies then you've got these diseased creatures with intelligence broken because they have no one to lead them and they decide to attack in force on the surface.  And thanks to Ostagar as someone else has mentioned that's the perfect example of why we can't let him do this to these creatures.  Do you truly believe that he's going to be able to keep these creatures oraganized and keep them from the surface. NO.  The Mother is another perfect example of why.  That won't be the last time that's gonna happen.

#927
gx99-nq9y

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i killed him i dont trust darkspawn i prefer them to be dump and wander the deep roads

Archdemons die, Darkspawn flee, Abominations gets crushed when the see my Arcanewarrior comming :)

#928
Ceridraen

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Well... hmmm... I've gotten to about 34 3 times, then restarted because I'd missed something I felt was vital. (Sigrun's story, Velanna's etc) -- When I finally got around to actually killing The Mum, I have to say - all my dreams that he'd turn out to be a snake of epic, manipulative proportions was destroyed. He just seemed confused - his blight tale could be summed up as 'oops,' and I rather liked him - he's someone I might like to have lunch with, just to see him size up the patrons in the least plausible way imaginable. But I also liked the Mum herself. I've had days with that mood myself...

#929
Sarah1281

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Yes a lot of the harm the Architect does is just him making mistakes, but given all of his mistakes seem to result in death and destruction galore (and are often your problem) I really didn't see any evidence that he was successful more often than not and that if I left him alone he wouldn't continue to make such cataclysmic mistakes.

#930
Ravenskya

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I spared the architect on accident - I thought I would have an opportunity after killing the mother to kill him... but that opportunity never presented itself. Next time, he's going down!

#931
Ceridraen

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I'm not sure it's supposed to be that way, but the Architect *does* have a certain comic aspect. He reminds me ever so slightly of John Cleese's Lancelot in The Holy Grail. Oh, sorry, sorry! Sometimes I just get carried away!

#932
sylvanaerie

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Ceridraen wrote...

I'm not sure it's supposed to be that way, but the Architect *does* have a certain comic aspect. He reminds me ever so slightly of John Cleese's Lancelot in The Holy Grail. Oh, sorry, sorry! Sometimes I just get carried away!


LOL What is your favorite color?

#933
Volourn

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"Fair enough, but still what is the point of arguing over broodmothers. The point is to stop the Darkspawn or the Blight. Allying the Architect at least gives you a chance you might stop the Blights while killing doesn't do ****.

"



That's your goal not my goal. My goal is to save as many intellignet beings as possible, and that includes intelligent friendly darkspawn like The Messenger.

#934
Ceridraen

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Blue... No, Yellow!



ARRRRGHGHGHGHGH!

#935
Sarah1281

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That's your goal not my goal. My goal is to save as many intellignet beings as possible, and that includes intelligent friendly darkspawn like The Messenger.

Are you just talking about saving the Architect because he was intelligent and (while not exactly friendly most of the game) polite? Or about the potential intelligent friendly darkspawn that the Architect plans to awaken that will remain enthralled if he dies?

#936
Volourn

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"Are you just talking about saving the Architect because he was intelligent and (while not exactly friendly most of the game) polite?"



I haven't made a final decision about TA on whether or not he is actually friend or foe. He certainly does things that warrant him being pubished for it, and I cna udnersatnd people killing him over it.My character (the one I've completed A with him) certainly doesn't think he's a goody two shoes or some best buddy. I gots my eyes on him.



" Or about the potential intelligent friendly darkspawn that the Architect plans to awaken that will remain enthralled if he dies?"



These. I want the darkspawn to ahve the freedom to choose. This is why I had no problem letting The Messenger go nor did I have a moral problem killing those intelligent free willed darkspawn who attacked me or innocents. Like the one who gets sucked into the Fade with me. I tried to reason with him but he was all about killing the GW, and I oblioged his atempt.. he failed and paid for it with his life.



His life. His freedom. His choice. His consequences.





This is why I don't damn all dwarves because of the evil of Bhelen or humans because of the evils of Loghain or Howe. Individuals.



Free the darkspawn to free ourselves.

#937
Thor Rand Al

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Volourn wrote...

That's your goal not my goal. My goal is to save as many intellignet beings as possible, and that includes intelligent friendly darkspawn like The Messenger.




Let me get this straight.  You'd be willing to put everyone's lives on the surface at risk for some darkspawn that carry a deadly taint just because they maybe intelligent?  Wow thats uh, just wrong.




Despite that these creatures will be able to avoid the Old God's call which will hopefully keep them from waking up, this still doesn't change anything positive about them.  They still carry the taint.  They can still corrupt people and anything else around them.  That is where the blight comes from.  Them, their disease.  It's not the ArchDemon, all he does is gather's them so they can go to the surface to ravage it and corrupt and kill as much as they can.  The Old God is not corrupted until the darkspawn reach them.  It's the taint that's in the darkspawn that gets transfered over to the Old God.  The Architect is not curring the corruption.  All he's doing is trying to keep them from reaching the Old God.

I can see how some people believe what he's trying to do is good for his people, maybe it is but in the long run it's not.  THEY ARE STILL CORRUPTED WITH THE TAINT.  That very taint is one of the reason's why there are Grey Wardens that and the Archdemon.  But it's the disease they carry that corrupts and destroys.  If you think that they'll stay down in the deep roads like good little tainted creatures think again. They are not going to become cute fuzzy adorable nugs.  He is changing nothing about them except giving them more intelligence and taking away their need to want to search for the Old God.  They will get enough numbers together and come to the surface with or without an ArchDemon.  They only come up to the surface in hordes when the ArchDemon rises and they go back to the Deep Roads when the ArchDemon dies so they can search for another Old God.  That is their purpose, that is why they exist, that is what drives them, that is what keeps us safe for long periods of time.  Now there is nothing to protect us from coming in hordes to the surface.  This time they come up (and they will) there will be no reason for them to go back down.  There will be no stopping them from corrupting everything. 

Here's another thought, what happens when their "Calling" (I'll call it that because the Architect is using Grey Warden blood and he calls his experiment the "Joining") comes to them.  We know what happens to us, we start becoming like them but what happens to them when their time comes and it will.  He's doing the reverse of what we do to them by taking them into ourselves.  Our time runs out so would theirs.  Maybe they do what we do but their suicide mission is going to the surface lol.

#938
Sarah1281

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Here's another thought, what happens when their "Calling" (I'll call it that because the Architect is using Grey Warden blood and he calls his experiment the "Joining") comes to them. We know what happens to us, we start becoming like them but what happens to them when their time comes and it will. He's doing the reverse of what we do to them by taking them into ourselves. Our time runs out so would theirs. Maybe they do what we do but their suicide mission is going to the surface lol.

I don't think it would work like that. The GW don't go to the Deep Roads because they're dying, they go because their bodies are finally losing the fight against the taint and they will become ghouls if they stay. If the darkspawn also can only resist their own taint for thirty years then they should just slowly start to revert back to pre-awakened state. That might not even be necessary depending on how long darkspawn even live for. We know that the Architect has been around for at least twenty years or so, depending on when The Calling took place and that the Architect was apparently mature then as well. Do they have humanesque lifespans? Then again, we haven't even been able to pin down the life expectancy of humans in Ferelden, let alone anyone else.

#939
EmperorSahlertz

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Thor Rand Al wrote...

Volourn wrote...

That's your goal not my goal. My goal is to save as many intellignet beings as possible, and that includes intelligent friendly darkspawn like The Messenger.




Let me get this straight.  You'd be willing to put everyone's lives on the surface at risk for some darkspawn that carry a deadly taint just because they maybe intelligent?  Wow thats uh, just wrong.




Despite that these creatures will be able to avoid the Old God's call which will hopefully keep them from waking up, this still doesn't change anything positive about them.  They still carry the taint.  They can still corrupt people and anything else around them.  That is where the blight comes from.  Them, their disease.  It's not the ArchDemon, all he does is gather's them so they can go to the surface to ravage it and corrupt and kill as much as they can.  The Old God is not corrupted until the darkspawn reach them.  It's the taint that's in the darkspawn that gets transfered over to the Old God.  The Architect is not curring the corruption.  All he's doing is trying to keep them from reaching the Old God.

I can see how some people believe what he's trying to do is good for his people, maybe it is but in the long run it's not.  THEY ARE STILL CORRUPTED WITH THE TAINT.  That very taint is one of the reason's why there are Grey Wardens that and the Archdemon.  But it's the disease they carry that corrupts and destroys.  If you think that they'll stay down in the deep roads like good little tainted creatures think again. They are not going to become cute fuzzy adorable nugs.  He is changing nothing about them except giving them more intelligence and taking away their need to want to search for the Old God.  They will get enough numbers together and come to the surface with or without an ArchDemon.  They only come up to the surface in hordes when the ArchDemon rises and they go back to the Deep Roads when the ArchDemon dies so they can search for another Old God.  That is their purpose, that is why they exist, that is what drives them, that is what keeps us safe for long periods of time.  Now there is nothing to protect us from coming in hordes to the surface.  This time they come up (and they will) there will be no reason for them to go back down.  There will be no stopping them from corrupting everything. 

Here's another thought, what happens when their "Calling" (I'll call it that because the Architect is using Grey Warden blood and he calls his experiment the "Joining") comes to them.  We know what happens to us, we start becoming like them but what happens to them when their time comes and it will.  He's doing the reverse of what we do to them by taking them into ourselves.  Our time runs out so would theirs.  Maybe they do what we do but their suicide mission is going to the surface lol.

So basically you are promoting genocide of a potentially intellegent race because they are diseased? That's like killing chimpansees because they started AIDS Image IPB

#940
Addai

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So basically you are promoting genocide of a potentially intellegent race because they are diseased? That's like killing chimpansees because they started AIDS Image IPB

If chimpanzees were also carrying out destructive wars and using human beings as breeding stock in addition to spreading deadly disease... yes.

#941
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So basically you are promoting genocide of a potentially intellegent race because they are diseased? That's like killing chimpansees because they started AIDS Image IPB


No, it's perfectly justified and indeed prior to modern medicine about the only way to check certain virulent plagues.  It's called (euphemistically) "Agressive Quarantine".  Entire villages, even cities can be completely wiped out in order to maintain a quarantine fire-break.

It is perfectly justifiable (and indeed morally required) to wipe out a species (intelligent or not), if the very existance of that species constitutes a direct and dire threat to your survival both personally and as a species.  The Darkspawn qualify.

-Polaris

#942
Thor Rand Al

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So basically you are promoting genocide of a potentially intellegent race because they are diseased? That's like killing chimpansees because they started AIDS Image IPB



Um AIDS isn't spread just by touching someone and chimps aren't going on rampaging killing sprees.  To compare chimps to darkspawn hmm now that's very interesting.  No where near the same but ok.


These darkspawn creatures where never meant to be domesticated.  They were never meant to be your best friend.  They were never meant for the surface world, to go to a city, to go into a pub.  If that was the case then they wouldn't have that deadly corrupting taint.  If there was a way to cure it I'm almost sure the mages or someone would of found 1 by now.



Edit:

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 28 mars 2010 - 04:24 .


#943
tmelange

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So basically you are promoting genocide of a potentially intellegent race because they are diseased? That's like killing chimpansees because they started AIDS Image IPB


All chimps do not carry AIDS (even if they started AIDS or were somehow still carriers). AIDS is not transferred by proximity. AIDS does not disease the environment as well as people. Chimps don't outnumber people thousands to one.

If chimps all of a sudden became the carriers of the plague, one or all, there would be no logical choice but to put them down. If a town of people, even, became afflicted with a highly contagious, incurable, airborne, infectious disease the only option would be to cordon off the town and likely burn it to the ground.

So, yes, like rabid dogs, the issue is that the darkspawn are diseased and contagious, not that they are intelligent.

Modifié par tmelange, 28 mars 2010 - 04:43 .


#944
keesio74

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I spared him because I believed he was sincere in his motives. However, the more and more I think about it, probably the best thing to do for the sake of Ferelden and the world in general is to kill him. The darkspawn are just too dangerous. It's not the most moral decision, but it's the most logical one.

#945
asaiasai

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I spared him the two times i played Awakenings and in the future i will do the same. Why?



My mom is in her 60s and has been an avid gardner all her life, her connection to the soil is amazing, the quality of flowers and fruit she grows is incredible. In Florida where we live we have an invasive species called Fire Ants (red), and they pretty much move in and take over an area and that is that. My mom has what some would call a problem with Black Ants, she has nests all over her property, but Black Ants do not bite like fire ants, they are annoying, but for the most part harmless. My mom has lived in her house for 30 years and while she has watched her neighboors loose thier yards to Fire Ants her little Black Ants still rule her little corner of the neighboorhood. I thought for the longest time my mom was crazy because she while in the process of gardening feeds her Black ants with sugar cubes a couple times a month by dropping the cubes close to thier holes. The Black ants are able to maintain an advantage over the neighbooring Fire Ants, my mom believes specifically because like her roses, pink grapefruits, mangos, oranges, plantains, and tomatoes she cultivates them to grow. They in turn keep the red ants from moving in and taking her yard away. So my mom works with the natural processes to keep her yard free of fire ants by allowing the black ants to prosper. Sugar cubes are WAY cheaper and safer that the chemical alternatives avaliable in the local hardware store.



I let the Architect live for similar reasons. I think this is a way to get another ally for the future against blights. As a Grey Warden i get a connection to the bestial nature of the darkspawn by the joining, as stated the darkspawn get a connection to the humanity of the wardens by thier joining. As in the case of Wynne by the definition of the Chantry she is/would be an abomination except for the only real measure of beast or man, her retained humanity, this also applies to the darkspawn as well. The messengers on several occasions proved to me to have sufficient humanity, and reason that just outright killing them would make me no better than the typical mindless darkspawn. Killing them would not be anything short of a surrender of my humanity to fear of the unknown.



Velena fits into the Architect's plans as i think she is destined to become the next brood mother, but unlike the mother, she has not heard the music of the old gods so she should be more succesfull in creating sane darkspawn. I actually envision a cooperative situation between the Architect and the Wardens. A blood exchange by both sides as they are really on the same side, as some have said i do not think the Archdemon controlled Darkspawn will differentiate between human and Architect darkspawn, all will fall if the AD has thier way. Peacful coexistence can be had between the surface peoples, the dwarves, and the Architect DS firstly because the free DS will still be underground. The dwarves will still have to fight DS to recapture thier taigs, but they will not be fighting free DS, they will be fighting the AD darkspawn. I let the messenger live and in my epilog i think he was the hooded stranger helping travelers this for me was vindication of my decision. People are the same the world over, we all want the same things, a job you enjoy and can be proud of, a safe place to live, enough to eat, a safe place to raise your youngins, and to deny anyone this because of insignifigant minor differences you become the very monsters you fight and as such have no more claim to life than the monsters.



Asai

#946
angj57

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I reluctantly let his messenger go because I gave him my word that I would show him mercy while I needed his help to retake the city as quickly as possible. But I couldn't justify letting the Architect live, even though he was a potential ally against the Mother.

First, as others have said, Darkspawn inherently carry disease that threatens all other races. Second, they can only reproduce by abducting members of other races and transforming them into breeding vesels. This makes the Darkspawn similar to a virus-- they cannot exist withou preying on other beings. Therefore, like viruses, they have to be wiped out.

Furthermore, there were 7 old gods in total. 5 have risen as archdemons and been defeated. Practically speaking, that means humanity is almost done with the era of blights. It may sound calous, but they only have 2 more to go before the darkspawn threat is essentially finished. If the Architect were to suceed, the Darkspawn would be seperated from the old gods and would remain a permanent threat.  After all, as bloody as the blights are, the Wardens are 5 for 5. It is better to just take the hit, deal with the next two blights and move on rather than constantly live with the threat of Darkspawn.

Finally, the Architect has caused vast amounts of death and destruction, both indirectly (by creating the Mother) and directly, by killing Wardens and the Vigil's soldiers, allowing his troops to run rampant in the Wending Wood, etc. On the other hand, he claims to be working for a good cause, but has produced nothing but death. If a scientist were caught experimenting on unwilling people and leading to people's deaths, but claimed that his research were important, he would still be justly punished, as the Architect should be.

asaiasai wrote...

People are the same the world over, we all want the same things, a job you enjoy and can be proud of, a safe place to live, enough to eat, a safe place to raise your youngins, and to deny anyone this because of insignifigant minor differences you become the very monsters you fight and as such have no more claim to life than the monsters.

Asai


Key word is PEOPLE. Darkspawn are not people, not even close. I would agree with you completely if we were talking about wiping out Orlesians or even Elves, but we're not.  Darkspawn, like viruses, are unable to even reproduce without destroying other beings and are therefore inherently incapable of the kind of peaceful existence you are talking about. I don't consider the fact that ALL darkspawn carry a disease that turns people into ghouls, or the fact that Darkspawn drag women down into caves and turn them into bloated, mindless, deformed, and mutated Darkspawn factories to be "minor differences." By your reasoning it would be wrong to even fight off a bacterial infection just because the bacteria are alive.

Modifié par angj57, 28 mars 2010 - 08:21 .


#947
Sarah1281

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Velena fits into the Architect's plans as i think she is destined to become the next brood mother, but unlike the mother, she has not heard the music of the old gods so she should be more succesfull in creating sane darkspawn.


Do you mean Serrani or actually Velanna, you're party member? If I thought that the Architect was even thinking of turning one of my friends into a Broodmother, that would be enough to get me to stop considering anything he had to say and kill him right there. Being force-fed tainted flesh and raped by darkspawn is not something I could even consider just sitting back and allowing to happen to anyone I cared about.

If you mean Seranni then that's still not acceptable. Not only is she Velanna's sister but she trusts the Arcitect. If she were willing to go along with that then I would view that as a clear sign that her mental faculties were compromsed either by the Taint or something else that the Architect did to her. I actually sort of suspect that already as I cannot, for the life of me, understand why she'd abandon the sister she abandoned her clan for in order to stay with the talking darkspawn. Does she just chronically abandon people? And the Architect doesn't need to create new darkspawn that may or may not be 'awakened' (and remember what the Mother prodcued? The children. Why would her children be any different than any other 'awakened' broodmothers' spawn?). What he needs to worry about is 'awakening' those that already exist. Or, if he must, 'awakening' an existing broodmother but monitoring it more carefully than the Mother before deeming the 'awakening' a success. Even if someone volunteered to become a broodmoter, that doesn't mean that they would stay sane throughout the process.



People are the same the world over, we all want the same things, a job you enjoy and can be proud of, a safe place to live, enough to eat, a safe place to raise your youngins, and to deny anyone this because of insignifigant minor differences you become the very monsters you fight and as such have no more claim to life than the monsters.

The differences between darkspawn and non-darkspawn aren't 'minor.' The fact that the darkspawn taint anyone who come into close contact with them (how close and how it is spread as well as if and how that spread can be prevented has yet to be determined) and they either die or become ghouls as well as them force-feeding women tainted flesh and then raping them to turn them into broodmothers to reproduce are not 'minor' differences. They MIGHT be surmountable, though I doubt that. Definitely not minor, though.

And let's not forget that we haven't been shown anything to suggest darkspawn are interested in a job they could be proud of, locating shelter and food are animal instincts that have nothing to do with intellgence, and darkspawn aren't really the nuturing type and Broodmothers are pretty much immobile so they can't nuture and the first hatched darkspawn we see (admittedly the Mother's twised children) seem pretty self-sufficient.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 28 mars 2010 - 03:50 .


#948
Addai

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asaiasai wrote...
 Killing them would not be anything short of a surrender of my humanity to fear of the unknown.

They're hardly unknown.  We have plenty of evidence of their disposition to humanity.

Velena fits into the Architect's plans as i think she is destined to become the next brood mother, but unlike the mother, she has not heard the music of the old gods so she should be more succesfull in creating sane darkspawn. I actually envision a cooperative situation between the Architect and the Wardens. A blood exchange by both sides as they are really on the same side,

This is horrific.  You're talking about losing your humanity in the same post as creating brood mothers and cooperating in darkspawn experiments?

People are the same the world over, we all want the same things, a job you enjoy and can be proud of, a safe place to live, enough to eat, a safe place to raise your youngins, and to deny anyone this because of insignifigant minor differences you become the very monsters you fight and as such have no more claim to life than the monsters.
 

Sorry, I just have to LOL as I picture Childer grubs crawling around behind white picket fences while the brood mothers call them in to supper.

#949
Thor Rand Al

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Addai67 wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
People are the same the world over, we all want the same things, a job you enjoy and can be proud of, a safe place to live, enough to eat, a safe place to raise your youngins, and to deny anyone this because of insignifigant minor differences you become the very monsters you fight and as such have no more claim to life than the monsters.
 


Sorry, I just have to LOL as I picture Childer grubs crawling around behind white picket fences while the brood mothers call them in to supper.


Roflmfao *spits pop on screen*   that's a good 1.  I love it.  Cant. Quit. Laughing.   That would be a sight.

#950
RBCharger

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 I just finished my first playthrough of Awakenings about an hour ago and started reading this post.   I read the first two pages then the last two pages.   Thirty eight pages?  No way am I reading that.  So what I am going to say has no doubt been covered already in this huge post.  But I will say my piece anyway:

I killed the Architect.  I killed the Messenger.  If they had a little darkspawn dog I would kill that too.  I am a Grey Warden and that is what I do.  I am not going to play one faction against the other -  I see two groups of darkspawn fighting each other, the first thing my party does is add a fireball or two into the mix.  I see that Bioware was attempting to make this into a moral dilemma but my character was not moved by anything the Architect had to say.  It is clear cut that for the good of humanity all darkspawn  must die.   As the most powerful martial artist this world has ever seen, I really don't need the Architect's help with this mission either.  And the last thing I need is intelligent darkspawn eventually becoming a more dangerous force than the blight ever was.

All that aside, the reason I wanted to get in on this post is because my buddy Oghren stepped out of character and wanted to start becoming a diplomat.  I actually lost 3 points of approval with Oghren when I told the Architect the time for talking was over and the time for fighting has begun.  Where did that come from?  I only had Oghren and Anders with me on this fight so the writers decided to make Oghren the devil's advocate here?  Never before in this game has Oghren wanted to negotiate when he could be fighting instead.  I may have lost 3 points of approval with him but he lost 15 with me.