1316 réponses à ce sujet

[asaiasai]

Sorry for the wall of text but i am answering multiple posts and i do not know how to multi quote so i tried to get everyone i could.



I did mean Serrani sorry.



I have killed "people" in DAO and DAOA that had less humanity than the Architect's darkspawn. As i stated Wynne is by the Chantry's definition an abomination and would if her secret was out be hunted by the templars. If Wynne acted like a typical abomination i would kill her without question, but for the very fact that she retains her humanity she is NOT an abomination. This IMHO applies to the Architect's darkspawn as well, to apply the criteria to one "monster" and not another would be hypocritical. As i said there are several "humans" in both games that showed less humanity than the messengers of the Architect, and i had NO problem putting them down. I could not kill those who showed even the glimmer of humanity even if it was newly aquired.



The Architect's darkspawn are a new form of life evolved from mindless beasts, granted there are some that still fit the bill as mindless beasts but they will kill the freed ones as well, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. There will be growing pains associated with this new transition, but for all intensive purposes the so called "humans" of Feraldin have a poor track record as well, just look at the Chantry, the disposition of the Dalish and City elves suffering oppression at the hands of humans. Typical. If it is different, if we do not understand it, if we fear it, we kill it, which in alot of ways makes humans no different than the mindless darkspawn we fight. At least the darkspawn do what they do at the behest of a god, as opposed to humans who do all the same things for whatever reasons happen to be handy, usually personal gain.



The childer grubs were specifically a Mother creation, the Architect seems to be more benovelent than some so called "humans" in the game, Loghain, Bhelen, Branka, Zathrian, Anora, are all choices the player can make as to whether they live or die and yet a darkspawn who shows more compassion than any of the mentioned individuals would be killed on sight. These people carry a far greater sickness than the taint, greed for power, as i read the Architect, he seems to want nothing more than to be left alone. Everyone who follows the Architect does so of thier own accord, Utha donated her blood, Serrani i think is willing to become the next brood mother, so with the Architect's guidance, Serrani as the brood mother i think the darkspawn are in for an evolutionary turn. I will not turn away a potential ally, or allow them to be harmed especially considering they have done nothing more than your average "human" has done, and was still allowed to live.



Put your prejudice away until such a time as it is warranted, we do not have enough facts to determine if they are threat or ally. Who is to say that if the taint is contagious as it is then why is it that the Wardens are tainted but still not infectious, could it be because of the joining? If that is the case could it not be the same for the freed darkspawn who upon completion of thier own joining minimize the danger of thier taint? Logic dictates that if Wardens are not contagious after thier exposure to the taint, then the Architects darkspawn should also be the same. The darkspawn taint can not be as contagious as it is made out to be because in Orgins you have party members covered in darkspawn blood for the duration of the game and not a single one has turned yet.



I for one would relish the opportunity to either play as freed darkspawn in conjunction with the Wardens. I think to have one as a party member would be awesome, and given the propensity of most players to make leaps of faith for the last 5 months what is one more in the scheme of things? That is precisely what allowing the Architect to live and leave is, a leap of faith. Bioware seems to enjoy making the player take those leaps and rewarding them for it, the Arachni (ME), Loghain, Nathaniel as Grey Wardens. I took my first leap 5 months ago and have not been disappointed yet, the Architect lives and i have jumped again.



Asai

[Thor Rand Al]

RBCharger wrote...


All that aside, the reason I wanted to get in on this post is because my buddy Oghren stepped out of character and wanted to start becoming a diplomat.  I actually lost 3 points of approval with Oghren when I told the Architect the time for talking was over and the time for fighting has begun.  Where did that come from?  I only had Oghren and Anders with me on this fight so the writers decided to make Oghren the devil's advocate here?  Never before in this game has Oghren wanted to negotiate when he could be fighting instead.  I may have lost 3 points of approval with him but he lost 15 with me.

Off Topic
Oghren's not the only 1 you lose approval with.  You lose it with Valenna & Nathaniel too, siding against the Architect.  I'm not sure about Sigrun though.  So it sounds like it's a tie as far as approval loses unless you lose it with Sigrun if you go against the Architect.




Interesting and if I was able to say anything to them I'd have to tell them what a Grey Warden really is about.  As far as my PC is concerned they weren't there during the Blight, they weren't fighting amonst it, they didn't kill the ArchDemon.  I was there, I saw it all and I saw the destruction that was caused because of it. 

Or I'd simply tell them deal with it, I'm the Commander and I've been a Grey Warden longer then they have  lmao

[Thor Rand Al]

asaiasai wrote...

Sorry for the wall of text but i am answering multiple posts and i do not know how to multi quote so i tried to get everyone i could.

I did mean Serrani sorry.

Put your prejudice away until such a time as it is warranted, we do not have enough facts to determine if they are threat or ally. Who is to say that if the taint is contagious as it is then why is it that the Wardens are tainted but still not infectious, could it be because of the joining? If that is the case could it not be the same for the freed darkspawn who upon completion of thier own joining minimize the danger of thier taint? Logic dictates that if Wardens are not contagious after thier exposure to the taint, then the Architects darkspawn should also be the same. The darkspawn taint can not be as contagious as it is made out to be because in Orgins you have party members covered in darkspawn blood for the duration of the game and not a single one has turned yet.

Asai

Um just a slight little problem with your theory here.  They are automatically born/hatched tainted.  Human's are not.  We drink a special formula that lets us take the taint into ourselves without it affecting those around us.  This is probably the reason why magic or whatever they use is used to confine the taint.  The darkspawn are taking their own taint back into themselves but it's not curing them from it. 

Oh and btw fyi if you let the messenger darkspawn go towards the end of the game you get a card for him and it does say that he tried to help some people but they ended up becoming tainted.  They still have and spread the taint.

Here's the exact wording from the card:
The darkspawn messenger, set free after joining the Wardens in the battle of Amaranthine, struck out on his own.  The city soon buzzed with stories of a cloaked but lisping figure who aided travelers in danger.  At the same time, reports of isolated cases of the darkspawn disease emerged.




EDIT:  It has nothing to do with prejudice, it's FACT.  If they didn't have this taint then yes maybe I'd think about it but because of this taint that corrupts and destroys no I will not risk letting these creatures evolve into something more deadlier for the rest of the world.  A Grey Warden's job is to protect the rest of the world from these creatures and their corruption.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 28 mars 2010 - 10:37 .

[Efesell]

I will always spare the Messenger, consequences be damned.

The idea of a cloaked Darkspawn superhero amuses me to no end.

[Thor Rand Al]

Efesell wrote...

I will always spare the Messenger, consequences be damned.
The idea of a cloaked Darkspawn superhero amuses me to no end.

Lmao I wonder what the other Grey Wardens would say if they ask you why did you save him, I could see you saying that.  The look on their faces would be priceless.

[westiex9]

I can't spare the architect or the mother they are too dangerous to be allowed to exist, Duncan wouldn't have let the architect walk and neither would my character.

The architect doesn't possess any proper empathy or understanding towards the surfacers and i doubt his "salvation" would be particularly pleasant for the people of the surface.

Plus the epilogue card for sparing the architect always makes me think that sparing the architect wil be bad for thedas in the long term.

In short the darkspawn all HAVE to die talking or not, they are an affront to the maker and a cancer upon the world. Besides we don't negotiate with Darkspawn!

Modifié par westiex9, 28 mars 2010 - 10:51 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Besides we don't negotiate with Darkspawn!

Really? Bregan ( Commander of the Grey in Orlais btw ) sided with him until the Architect killed Genevieve and that was with the Architect planning to turn everyone into Wardens not like now where he merely needs Grey Warden Blood. Utha did the same.



Duncan would not have joined Architect if he had similar goals like in the Calling but you can bet he would have allied him if presented with the offer you are presented in Awakening.

[westiex9]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Besides we don't negotiate with Darkspawn!

Really? Bregan ( Commander of the Grey in Orlais btw ) sided with him until the Architect killed Genevieve and that was with the Architect planning to turn everyone into Wardens not like now where he merely needs Grey Warden Blood. Utha did the same.

Duncan would not have joined Architect if he had similar goals like in the Calling but you can bet he would have allied him if presented with the offer you are presented in Awakening.

Utha and bregan represent a very slim minority who actually found the architects plans worth the horrors they would entail, the majority of the wardens stood against the architect and with good reason. Id also like to point out that bregan was hardly in a state of mind to resist the architect, Bregan was already suffering the onset of the taint and the architect took advantage of his weakened state. The architect is a manipulator who offers much and that makes him more dangerous than any arch-demon.

Duncan Would never side with the architect regardless of the altered nature of his plans, the architect is a dangerous enemy because he offers a quick fix to a problem but his ideas and schemes are too dangerous to ever be allowed to come to fruition. Duncan understood that the grey wardens exist to stand a long vigil against the darkspawn not to chicken out and make happy faces with them because the oppurtunity presented itself.

But for me the architect is a moot point now, he is currently rotting in the dragonbone wastes with his nemesis the mother.

[Thor Rand Al]

As Maric said in the Calling. "Since when has taking a shortcut ever turned out well?" Letting the Architect live might seem like a good idea but in the long run it's not. It's a shortcut, it will come back at you later 10 times worse.

[Costin_Razvan]

It's a shortcut, it will come back at you later 10 times worse.

You do realize that the Architect's plan would take many many decades to bear fruit right? I don't call that a shortcut.

[westiex9]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It's a shortcut, it will come back at you later 10 times worse.

You do realize that the Architect's plan would take many many decades to bear fruit right? I don't call that a shortcut.

The strife the darkspawn have caused has lasted a millennia, so a few decades sounds a lot like a shortcut in comparison

Besides do you really want to give the darkspawn sentience? that has clearly made them more dangerous and i doubt giving the entire species the ability to think and reason will help long term it will make things worse.

Just think about it, first the architect is allowed to Awaken the darkspawn and then what? certainly some might choose to follow him but it is inevitable that others would fracture into seperate groups.

Now just imagine that, entire hordes of darkspawn with their own autonomy and  intelligent leaders at their heads. Siding with the architect would open a pandora's box and trust me this one ain't got no hope in it.

Modifié par westiex9, 28 mars 2010 - 11:35 .

[Efesell]

I think I still prefer that to an entire unified horde set on 'Genocide' mode.

But to be completely honest, I'm sparing the guy because that's a far more interesting scenario than simply cutting him down. And also because.. well I just like the Architect.

[RBCharger]

These forums should have a system to do a plus or minus rating on people's posts. Westiex9 is right on the mark with everything he/she says. You deserve your title of Warden Commander, ser.

[Basher of Glory]

So, what do you people think? Will we be confronted with something like the "true Geth" in ME 2 if we let the Architect go?

[Karlojey]

I have two playthroughs go through awakenings. The first one (my main guy: 2H HN) killed The Architect and the second one (Male Elf, Dalish Origin, Archer) spared him. Although the ending where you spared him sounds good (there was peace for awhile), it doesn't guarantee that another blight will not happen. The Mother did mention that he was the cause of the other blights so why spare him?



Darkspawn are darkspawn. You can't trust them.

[westiex9]

RBCharger wrote...

These forums should have a system to do a plus or minus rating on people's posts. Westiex9 is right on the mark with everything he/she says. You deserve your title of Warden Commander, ser.

Thanks for the vote of confidence RB! 

ill admit that im curious as to how they are going to handle the choices from awakening and DA, im hoping they will keep the codex system and have it react to choices in previous games. But thats all for the future, for now at least i can be glad the architect is not hiding in a deep road scheming.

Vilnii and karlojey are right on point concerning the darkspawns trustworthiness, and plus isn't the value of a culture judged by what they produce? the darkspawn destroy entire nations, taint nature and living creatures and errr.....coat the walls in something that looks like tentacled spam. Im no expert on cultural value but if Doctor Solus was here i believe he would say(takes  massive breath):

Darkspawn, Toxic to other species, no art, no music, no culture, revel in violence, lack higher cognitive functions analysis unsuitable for continued propagation.

Modifié par westiex9, 28 mars 2010 - 12:08 .

[Efesell]

I think that, in the event of sparing him, another Blight is highly unlikely. He won't be too quick to repeat any experiments on the Old Gods, and will likely kill them outright this time since he had considered it even before.

That said, I don't think that guarantees any sort of permanent peace.. just an end to the Blights.

So, what do you people think? Will we be confronted with something like the "true Geth" in ME 2 if we let the Architect go?

I think his work is almost guaranteed to reappear no matter what we do.. either he continues or one of his disciples assumes the mantle.

[Layn]

about darkspawn walking on the surface: The Architect wants to avoid giving the grey wardens any reason to kill more darkspawn. He will definitely try to keep them all far away from the sentient races (as was even proven in the epilogue).
It went so bad in awakening (which wasn't that bad at all, considering what the darkspawn did when they didn't have sentience) because they were underestimated and everyone thought the darkspawn were gone. now we know better.
if a being can be sentient, i'll let it be. of course they will have to live seperately. These are the being that supposedly came to destroy us all, and now it turns out that they can be peaceful. Its something that seems worth pursuing to me.
of course killing the architect is safest, but i want to give them a chance.

so, what if the darkspawn fracture? it'd be like any other country at war. the architects faction and others that somewhat agree with them, will fight those who try to go to the surface, and the grey wardens will help them in that task.

westiex9 wrote...

Darkspawn, Toxic to other species, no
art, no music, no culture, revel in violence, lack higher cognitive
functions analysis unsuitable for continued propagation.

well, when should they have created all that? when they were mindlessly following an old gods call or when they were mindlessly following an archdemon into war against the surface?
*imagines an ogre playing a love song with a tiny guitar* 

Modifié par Crrash, 28 mars 2010 - 12:16 .

[westiex9]

Crrash wrote...

about darkspawn walking on the surface: The Architect wants to avoid giving the grey wardens any reason to kill more darkspawn. He will definitely try to keep them all far away from the sentient races (as was even proven in the epilogue).
It went so bad in awakening (which wasn't that bad at all, considering what the darkspawn did when they didn't have sentience) because they were underestimated and everyone thought the darkspawn were gone. now we know better.
if a being can be sentient, i'll let it be. of course they will have to live seperately. These are the being that supposedly came to destroy us all, and now it turns out that they can be peaceful. Its something that seems worth pursuing to me.
of course killing the architect is safest, but i want to give them a chance.

so, what if the darkspawn fracture? it'd be like any other country at war. the architects faction and others that somewhat agree with them, will fight those who try to go to the surface, and the grey wardens will help them in that task. continually fighting small groups of intelligent darkspawn seems easier than letting them amass through centuries and have them then overrun thedas.

If you give the darkspawn a chance your decision will likely affect millions of people far into the future. Awakening was just the start, one arling was nearly destroyed in a matter of months when the darkspawn were allowed to gain consciousness in small number. If they are given the chance to do it in larger size then they will lay waste to entire nations.

If the darkspawn are allowed to gain sentience there is always a chance that the seperate groups that fracture might one day unite under a supreme warlord and lay waste to thedas. And even a single horde of sentient darkspawn would have the ability to trouble nations due to the mass breeding a broodmother allows. 

If anything giving them intelligence makes them more dangerous and allows them to strategise to a much greater degree, and the fact remains they are still tainted by the blight. Whole splinter hordes of intelligent darkspawn pillaging nations and burning cities does not sound like an agreeable peace. The lands they conquer will still taint and die and their intelligence will make them a greater threat then ever before.

 A grey warden isn't meant to empathise or give darkspawn a chance, they are unworthy of trust or life and deserve only to be eradicated. They have not provided thedas with any reason to tolerate their existance and i doubt they will in the future.   

[Efesell]

Man I don't like this 'Grey Warden should do this.. Grey Warden should do that.." business.

It'd seem like my characters have no minds of their own.

[SarEnyaDor]

I don't know if I'd say they had no art, Westiex9, Cailan was pretty artisitically strung-up....



The talking darkspawn would be at constant war with regular darkspawn, and their own kind, I bet it is ALOT more common for them to go crazy like the Mother than to be like the Messenger.



I mean think about it -> you were once a human woman, you got captured, defiled, transformed and became a factory for vileness. But hey, you are basically mindless and respond only to the music of the archdemon until that link is severed and you are Awakened into the horror that is your life. Who WOULDN'T go crazy?



I was just happy I got to kill Utha. Too bad Velenna's sister disappeared and I didn't get a chance to put her down, too. I think we'll have new horrible shrieks to deal with later....

[westiex9]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I don't know if I'd say they had no art, Westiex9, Cailan was pretty artisitically strung-up....

The talking darkspawn would be at constant war with regular darkspawn, and their own kind, I bet it is ALOT more common for them to go crazy like the Mother than to be like the Messenger.

I mean think about it -> you were once a human woman, you got captured, defiled, transformed and became a factory for vileness. But hey, you are basically mindless and respond only to the music of the archdemon until that link is severed and you are Awakened into the horror that is your life. Who WOULDN'T go crazy?

I was just happy I got to kill Utha. Too bad Velenna's sister disappeared and I didn't get a chance to put her down, too. I think we'll have new horrible shrieks to deal with later....

it felt great to kill that traitor utha but she died far too quickly for my liking, Yuck the thought of shrieks related to velanna will give me nightmares i mean velanna is bad enough but shrieks......(shudders)

And its true cailan got the whole crucified look at ostagar, personally i wouldve gone for hanging him in a clown costume...but they are trying lol

[Efesell]

The talking darkspawn would be at constant war with regular darkspawn, and their own kind, I bet it is ALOT more common for them to go crazy like the Mother than to be like the Messenger.

Well on that who can say, we don't have nearly enough to go on there. We have exactly one Darkspawn going bonkers and one becoming Batman, hard to say how it'll pan out when more and more start being created.

It does seem like Broodmothers would have a much higher chance of losing it though.

[westiex9]

Efesell wrote...

The talking darkspawn would be at constant war with regular darkspawn, and their own kind, I bet it is ALOT more common for them to go crazy like the Mother than to be like the Messenger.

Well on that who can say, we don't have nearly enough to go on there. We have exactly one Darkspawn going bonkers and one becoming Batman, hard to say how it'll pan out when more and more start being created.
It does seem like Broodmothers would have a much higher chance of losing it though.

Lol he would be BLIGHTMAN!!

Blightman: haha bandits dead you are safe now

Damsel in distress: Oh thankyou blightman! hey...im not feeling too good (pulls up shirt) ewwww multiple bewbs!!

Damsel's husband: hehe maybe this whole blight thing does have some perks