1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Efesell]

I chose Batman there because I keep having this thought of him going around saying "I am the Blight"

[SarEnyaDor]

*throws up a little in the back of her throat*



You know, I never thought I'd miss the first broodmother, but at least her rows of breasts didn't bounce and jiggle in a breast-like manner. As my husband said "I never thought I'd see bare breasts I didn't like, but I was wrong!" LOL

[sylvanaerie]

Crrash wrote...

about darkspawn walking on the surface: The Architect wants to avoid giving the grey wardens any reason to kill more darkspawn. He will definitely try to keep them all far away from the sentient races (as was even proven in the epilogue).
It went so bad in awakening (which wasn't that bad at all, considering what the darkspawn did when they didn't have sentience) because they were underestimated and everyone thought the darkspawn were gone. now we know better.
if a being can be sentient, i'll let it be. of course they will have to live seperately. These are the being that supposedly came to destroy us all, and now it turns out that they can be peaceful. Its something that seems worth pursuing to me.
of course killing the architect is safest, but i want to give them a chance.

so, what if the darkspawn fracture? it'd be like any other country at war. the architects faction and others that somewhat agree with them, will fight those who try to go to the surface, and the grey wardens will help them in that task.

westiex9 wrote...

Darkspawn, Toxic to other species, no
art, no music, no culture, revel in violence, lack higher cognitive
functions analysis unsuitable for continued propagation.

well, when should they have created all that? when they were mindlessly following an old gods call or when they were mindlessly following an archdemon into war against the surface?
*imagines an ogre playing a love song with a tiny guitar* 

LOL that just put in my head an image of "Tiptoe through the Tulips" on a ukelale ala Tiny Tim

[Layn]

i know it's the first. i didn't have a shot from the messenger

[EmperorSahlertz]

So basically all the talk against the Architect goes on the fact 1: The Darkspawn is tainted (true) and 2: Being intellegent wouldn't change their nature (assumption).



Its true the Darkspawn are still tainted but assuming intellegence won't change their bestial nature is just arrogant. Saying that Darkspawn lacks culture is also downright ignorant. Even in their mindless state the Darkspawn have got their own architecture and prefered weapon style. Granted their culture isn't as developed as the dwarfs' or the surface world's and is geared towards warfare, it should be taken into account that until now they have been the (un)willing thralls of the archdemons, which basicly used them as one giant warmachine.

All the architect asks is for his people to be given the choice about their place in the world,s ome would perhaps choose to remain faithful to the Old Gods (the Mother and her ilk for instance) while others would try and find a new purpose (the Architect and his ilk) and some few would actually try and make the world a better place (The Messenger).



The intellegent Darkspawn might become a greater threat than ever, or they might become the greatest ally ever.. Who is to say? Judging the future actions of the intellegent on the past actions of the mindless is rather dumb and short-sighted.

[tmelange]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So basically all the talk against the Architect goes on the fact 1: The Darkspawn is tainted (true) and 2: Being intellegent wouldn't change their nature (assumption).

Its true the Darkspawn are still tainted but assuming intellegence won't change their bestial nature is just arrogant. Saying that Darkspawn lacks culture is also downright ignorant. Even in their mindless state the Darkspawn have got their own architecture and prefered weapon style. Granted their culture isn't as developed as the dwarfs' or the surface world's and is geared towards warfare, it should be taken into account that until now they have been the (un)willing thralls of the archdemons, which basicly used them as one giant warmachine.
All the architect asks is for his people to be given the choice about their place in the world,s ome would perhaps choose to remain faithful to the Old Gods (the Mother and her ilk for instance) while others would try and find a new purpose (the Architect and his ilk) and some few would actually try and make the world a better place (The Messenger).

The intellegent Darkspawn might become a greater threat than ever, or they might become the greatest ally ever.. Who is to say? Judging the future actions of the intellegent on the past actions of the mindless is rather dumb and short-sighted.

If you're assuming they have culture then they aren't mindless. If they are mindless, they don't have culture. You can't have it both ways. Developing cultural indices requires some thought.

Certainly, we have proof that intelligence has had little effect on the warring, killing and preying upon humans that is the hallmark of regular darkspawn. I see intelligent darkspawn being the cause of almost all the death and destruction wrought in the expansion. I saw people hung from rafters in vigils keep, and thrown from parapets, and fields of dead people in the forest and rooms of tortured dead that had been experimented on, and the creation of new, parasitic types of darkspawn -- all enacted by intelligent darkspawn. PLUS the dubious inclusion of sneak attacks, civil war, misinformation campaigns, manipulation, betrayal, biological warfare, etc.

So I see little change in their bestial nature by virtue of intelligence. I see that they became much, much more dangerous to the extraordinary detriment of the Arling under my protection.

Modifié par tmelange, 28 mars 2010 - 02:38 .

[Volourn]

"As Maric said in the Calling. "Since when has taking a shortcut ever turned out well?" Letting the Architect live might seem like a good idea but in the long run it's not. It's a shortcut, it will come back at you later 10 times worse."



Killing all darkspawn even when you don't have to is the shortcut. It's the easy choice. Nothing worth doing should be easy. There is no plot, there is no morale, there is no logic tod eciding to wipe out all darkspawn even good ones. It's about hate, and bigotry.



People keep talking about the past and the mindless darkspawn actions are proof they cna't be trusted. That's silly. DS like TA, The Withered, and the Messenger are not like other DS so they should be treated differently.



Free the darkspawn to fre ourselves!



P.S. Grey Wardens have the knack for doing the easy thing the shortcut way all the time. It's why they target criminals and murderers to force them to join them. It's why they have no problem using torture, blood magic (and, no, I don't think all BM is evil), and a host of easy copouts. GW arenot inherently moral creatures.

[IanPolaris]

I don't care if all the darkspawn became suprageniuses with the moral character of Ghandi. The fact is that:



1. Darkspawn by proximity spread deadly taint to all other forms of life which mean they can not coexist peacefully with other forms of life.



2. They must abduct and rape the women of the various humanities just to procreate, and must do so in a particularly vicious and vile way.



Given that, it's not a hard choice. The Architect must die because giving any species that is so diametrically opposed to the very survival of humanity is as Sigrun says, "Reeks of Stupid"



-Polaris

[Darkannex]

Here is another thought - and I am not sure if it makes me more or less inclined to spare the Architect (I have killed him thus far). His stated intent is to have 'peaceful coexistance' ... but does he really believe that humanity/elves/dwarves will accept that? If not-how does he intend to force that issue?



In the Calling, it was by wiping out the majority of mankind, to make GW's that he could then corrupt to tainted intelligent DS. What will he next hatch to ensure his view of peaceful co existance?

[master-fluff]

I think even the un-awakened darkspawn have some 'culture', just look at all the idol statues they make throughout Origins. However that doesn't make me want to clasp them to my bosom, they still need to be eradicated.



Maybe those who think darkspawn should be saved should also be noble enough to witness their loved ones eaten alive and turned into broodmothers before they themselves experience it. Only fair to be the first in this exciting new world of détente -- think of the glory !

[Darkannex]

People keep talking about the past and the mindless darkspawn actions are proof they cna't be trusted. That's silly. DS like TA, The Withered, and the Messenger are not like other DS so they should be treated differently.
.

Okay - lets take that on. 
The Withered - we witness he and his brethren kill everyone in Wardens keep. Why didn't they just run away if they were there for peaceful reasons as the Architect stated? We witness him kill an unarmed and helpless soldier by kicking him off a precipice. 

The Architect - In the Calling he planned mass genocide himself. He was going to force the Joining on all living things, and then out of the relatively few that survived, advance their Taint to where they were like Utha is in the game.  He has created the broodmother, started the last blight, and has been experimenting on many people (as evidenced by the fresh dead bodies in his lab). He kidnaps you, takes your blood and uses it to experiment on other subjects. And then he sics his pet dragons on you.  THEN he SAYS he wants to live peacefully, la-la-la. 

The Messenger - this is the ONLY exception to what has otherwise been a complete trainwreck. He helps you fight to save Amaranthine. If you spare him he goes about helping others. DESPITE THIS : he spreads the taint. In this one and only case, do we see demonstrated compassion in Darkspawn. And he still causes great harm. If he were truly compassionate - would he not STOP what he was doing and instead withdraw himself to where he could not corrupt others?  Even in his case, he demonstrates an appalling lack of common sense/reasoning. 

To the woman that spoke about her mothers garden-that was eloquently put. And it gave me pause. To my opinion though, it is not quite the same thing (unless I misunderstand  your post). Using the Architect as the black ants COULD work-but it's more akin to having intelligent fireants on your moms property that fight all other fireants and keep them back. Once your intelligent fireants have done that - well...they are still fireants aren't they? Will they all of a sudden stop being what their nature is? 

This reminds me very much of the Fable "The Scorpion and the Frog"

Modifié par Darkannex, 28 mars 2010 - 03:35 .

[IanPolaris]

Darkannex wrote...

People keep talking about the past and the mindless darkspawn actions are proof they cna't be trusted. That's silly. DS like TA, The Withered, and the Messenger are not like other DS so they should be treated differently.
.

Okay - lets take that on. 
The Withered - we witness he and his brethren kill everyone in Wardens keep. Why didn't they just run away if they were there for peaceful reasons as the Architect stated? We witness him kill an unarmed and helpless soldier by kicking him off a precipice. 

Not only that but lest anyone forgot, Withered planned and executed a SNEAK ATTACK designed to kill a many soldiers and capture/kill as many Grey Wardens as possible.  That's a pretty peculiar way to open up peace negotions since anything (even other darkspawn!) react rather poorly to being openly and visciously attacked.  EIther the Withered completely went outside the Architect's orders (in which case the Architect can't be trusted enough to control his fact enough to complete his plan without further blights....or worse) OR the Architect is lying through his pearly whites all along.

Either way, the Architect and especially Utha (and Vellana's sister) need to die.

-Polaris

[Darkannex]

It's an interesting aside, Polaris. I was going strictly by what the Architect said in regards to their intent as opposed to how it was carried out-in sight of the warden. The underground tunnels certainly do indicate some sort of subterfuge...or at least a good place to retreat to once they realized that their so called 'we come in peace' attempt failed.

[sylvanaerie]

I still want to know WHY the Wardens didn't sense them. It was brought up but no one answered it in the game it just kind of got dropped.

[byronb23]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

People keep talking about the past and the mindless darkspawn actions are proof they cna't be trusted. That's silly. DS like TA, The Withered, and the Messenger are not like other DS so they should be treated differently.
.

Okay - lets take that on. 
The Withered - we witness he and his brethren kill everyone in Wardens keep. Why didn't they just run away if they were there for peaceful reasons as the Architect stated? We witness him kill an unarmed and helpless soldier by kicking him off a precipice. 

Not only that but lest anyone forgot, Withered planned and executed a SNEAK ATTACK designed to kill a many soldiers and capture/kill as many Grey Wardens as possible.  That's a pretty peculiar way to open up peace negotions since anything (even other darkspawn!) react rather poorly to being openly and visciously attacked.  EIther the Withered completely went outside the Architect's orders (in which case the Architect can't be trusted enough to control his fact enough to complete his plan without further blights....or worse) OR the Architect is lying through his pearly whites all along.

Either way, the Architect and especially Utha (and Vellana's sister) need to die.

-Polaris

The problem is that, inorder to make all of the darkspawn rational creatures he needs greywarden blood. He wishes peace but at the same time needs our blood to create the peace. Its a peculiar thing.

[IanPolaris]

Darkannex wrote...

It's an interesting aside, Polaris. I was going strictly by what the Architect said in regards to their intent as opposed to how it was carried out-in sight of the warden. The underground tunnels certainly do indicate some sort of subterfuge...or at least a good place to retreat to once they realized that their so called 'we come in peace' attempt failed.

My point is that I don't think you can seperate what the Architect says was the intent with how it was carried. out.  There is no evidence that the Grey Wardens at Vigil's Keep had any warning whatsoever.  In fact given the GW nature, this fact is called out as unusual more than once.  Moreoever this was a classic sneak attack which is unheard of (to this point) with Darkspawn.

There is no way that the Darkspawn under Withered :"came in peace" or else there would have been no sneak attack (since the attempt to parley would have alerted the defenders).  If Withered HAD done what the Architect claimed, then it should have been an "easily beaten back and badly organized attack".

Either the Architect is lying throug his pearly whites or the Architect can not control his own people.  Pick one.  Either way it's more evidence that the Architect has to die.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

byronb23 wrote...
The problem is that, inorder to make all of the darkspawn rational creatures he needs greywarden blood. He wishes peace but at the same time needs our blood to create the peace. Its a peculiar thing.

Taking someone's blood by force without consent via SNEAK ATTACK tends to forclose any chance of peace.  Even in wars IRL between ordinary humans, sneak attacks generally make it difficult to come to the peace table later (ask the Imperial Japanese of WWII or the Israelis post 1967).

-Polaris

[master-fluff]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I still want to know WHY the Wardens didn't sense them. It was brought up but no one answered it in the game it just kind of got dropped.

I assumed it works much in the same way as how the DS don't notice Ruck.  He has eaten DS so now they don't 'see' him.  The intelligent DS have ingested GW blood so now we no longer sense them.

[sylvanaerie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

It's an interesting aside, Polaris. I was going strictly by what the Architect said in regards to their intent as opposed to how it was carried out-in sight of the warden. The underground tunnels certainly do indicate some sort of subterfuge...or at least a good place to retreat to once they realized that their so called 'we come in peace' attempt failed.

My point is that I don't think you can seperate what the Architect says was the intent with how it was carried. out.  There is no evidence that the Grey Wardens at Vigil's Keep had any warning whatsoever.  In fact given the GW nature, this fact is called out as unusual more than once.  Moreoever this was a classic sneak attack which is unheard of (to this point) with Darkspawn.

There is no way that the Darkspawn under Withered :"came in peace" or else there would have been no sneak attack (since the attempt to parley would have alerted the defenders).  If Withered HAD done what the Architect claimed, then it should have been an "easily beaten back and badly organized attack".

Either the Architect is lying throug his pearly whites or the Architect can not control his own people.  Pick one.  Either way it's more evidence that the Architect has to die.

-Polaris

And any darkspawn I see.  Even the one good guy darkspawn in the game still spreads the taint which is an unacceptable ending for me.  Even if I did feel a pang of guilt for it, I just told Garavel to do whatever he wanted with it and I didn't get its help in the city just had them tie him up.

[IanPolaris]

master-fluff wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I still want to know WHY the Wardens didn't sense them. It was brought up but no one answered it in the game it just kind of got dropped.

I assumed it works much in the same way as how the DS don't notice Ruck.  He has eaten DS so now they don't 'see' him.  The intelligent DS have ingested GW blood so now we no longer sense them.

That doesn't wash since there were plenty of ordinary style darkspawn in the mix.  However, we do know that the Grey Warden sense doesn't work perfectly.  Remember the Kocari Wilds?  Alistair was only able to sense groups of Darkspawn in proximity, but the party was jumped by Darkspawn rogues coming out of stealth all the time there.

Also I think the Grey Wardens were not expecting an attack from below, so while they might have known there were darkspawn about outside, I think it's the underground angle that through them especially since there are ALWAYS Darkspawn in the deep roads below.

Just my guess.

-Polaris

[sylvanaerie]

IanPolaris wrote...

master-fluff wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I still want to know WHY the Wardens didn't sense them. It was brought up but no one answered it in the game it just kind of got dropped.

I assumed it works much in the same way as how the DS don't notice Ruck.  He has eaten DS so now they don't 'see' him.  The intelligent DS have ingested GW blood so now we no longer sense them.

That doesn't wash since there were plenty of ordinary style darkspawn in the mix.  However, we do know that the Grey Warden sense doesn't work perfectly.  Remember the Kocari Wilds?  Alistair was only able to sense groups of Darkspawn in proximity, but the party was jumped by Darkspawn rogues coming out of stealth all the time there.

Also I think the Grey Wardens were not expecting an attack from below, so while they might have known there were darkspawn about outside, I think it's the underground angle that through them especially since there are ALWAYS Darkspawn in the deep roads below.

Just my guess.

-Polaris

Good point.  Works for me. You should be doing Continuity QA for Bioware. 

[master-fluff]

IanPolaris wrote...

That doesn't wash since there were plenty of ordinary style darkspawn in the mix. 

Possibly, although we don't know that for sure.  Does awakening them always change their physical appearance and armour ?  I think we need to have an IQ test for darkspawn.  "Dear Ser Darkspawn, before I can kill you, what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow ?"

[Jukesbox360]

My Elf Warden had seen enough of second class citizenry to know that any Darkspawn race looking to make a part of the world as much their own as any other worldly inhabitant, Isn't going to happen without lots of war and even then.. remain second class.



The Humans and Elven people that are blessed with the gift of Magic are made as prisoners in a tower to protect them from others as much as to protect others from them. Even inside the tower there was rebellion with the mages that learned of Blood Magic and used it as an attempt to free themselves from the confining walls of the tower.



We have Demons from the Fade that seek to break out of the dream world to view Thedas through the eyes of any that are living or dead.



Now we have Darkspawn that have evolved naturally... as the Architect has... and wants to change the world enough to accept them and let them carve out a place in Thedas.



What of the Werewolves being forever cursed, they want a place in Thedas as well.. and if you played your story right, you watched as Humans and Elves didn't accept them in society.



My Grey Warden Elf chose to destroy anything and everyone that didn't fit into my perception of whats acceptable or not,.. being made to feel as a second class citizen growing up in the Alienage, becoming a Grey Warden was my break to make a difference.

Essentially, Thedas is being molded through my actions to be what Thedas should be in my opinion.



Grey Wardens only live about 30 years after the joining so says Alistair somewhere in the story... so I have 30 years to make a difference through conscription of wardens, killing Demons, killing Darkspawn hordes, Keeping peace between Mages, Elves, Werewolves, Dwarves, Humans, Nobles and Commoners all at the same time.

Now I am supposed to accept an Architect's perception of what he believes darkspawn deserve?



Not happening!... Kill them all, let the Maker sort them out!

[IanPolaris]

master-fluff wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That doesn't wash since there were plenty of ordinary style darkspawn in the mix. 

Possibly, although we don't know that for sure.  Does awakening them always change their physical appearance and armour ?  I think we need to have an IQ test for darkspawn.  "Dear Ser Darkspawn, before I can kill you, what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow ?"

We know there are plenty of oridinary darkspawn in the mix.  Most of the darkspawn in Vigil are very ordinary (and act as very ordinary) Hurlocks and Genlocks including their tactics.  This makes sense as well.  There are not that many Grey Wardens in all of Thedas (perhaps a couple of thousand) and the Architect would only be able to get access to a tiny, tiny fraction of that which means a very limited supply of Grey Warden Blood....no where near enough for a decent strike force let alone an army.

The disciples are the awakened Darkspawn as are specials (like Mother).  The rest?  Not so much.

-Polaris

[sylvanaerie]

master-fluff wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That doesn't wash since there were plenty of ordinary style darkspawn in the mix. 

Possibly, although we don't know that for sure.  Does awakening them always change their physical appearance and armour ?  I think we need to have an IQ test for darkspawn.  "Dear Ser Darkspawn, before I can kill you, what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow ?"

ROFL don't forget to ask him his favorite color too. 

Blue no yellow ARRRRRRGH